Yes, it makes sense. GWFs aren't alone in the situation that a single feat path isn't the best for both PvE and PvP. In fact, that was almost a peculiarity of GWFs in module 3. Before that, it was generally Sentinels for PvP and Destroyers for PvE too. A good current example would be HRs, which rely on a single feat path to excel as much as they do in PvP; archer or trapper HRs do not excel to anywhere near the same degree in PvP as melee ones. Other classes face similar trade-offs between speccing for PvP or PvE.
#GWF specially IV > Destroyer (the most popular GWF path) is the least desired PvP class in premade.
#GWF is the least desired PvE class in a guild team
DPS ? CW/SW/HR
Heal? DC
Tank? GF
The class that fits in when no one else is available - GWF
The class that's non existent in PvE - TR
Additionally, I don't mind different builds at all:
#I would love to have two different level 60 builds on alts on toons if only they made ALL the gears/ equip "Account" bound instead of "Character"
OR
#I want to be able to switch path without any cost (AD) so I can switch between Sentinel & Destroyer.
This is a fail policy that developers put in the game and it will NEVER change. So no point talking about it.
A team of 5 of the same class is IMO a failed test. GWFs are good enough in pvp atm. They work best with other specific classes, like CWs or rangers. The GWF makes an excellent meatshield and works best when drawing attention from the other team. Asking for a better individual performance is irrelevant: what matters is what a party with different classes and working synergies can do.
Now if you want module 2 back with troll GWFs holding nodes 1 vs 5 I'm sorry but this is gone forever.
Indirectly you are saying GWF is currently a support class for CW, HR & SW. The problem is it can't support properly - unlike GF with Knight's Valor and DC with their epic heal. The role of a GWF is vague, hit & run for pots and unable to solo vs HR/TR/GF on flag nodes.
Red glyph and DR% collapsing to RI%, is down almost to non-existent against premade teams. To say GWF is a meat shield and can face-tank is suicide. So I disagree with you there! It's best role as support is taking "some" damage and throw a few cc and hopefully land an IBS when other classes have done sufficient damage to a target. But look, this class mechanic just feels stupid. 1v1 against Hr/Tr/GF forget it. So on solo flag nodes it doesn't have a spot either. Team vs team in middle, like you termed it "meat shield or buffer layer for DPS classes" or how I see it "hit & run for pots or die".
And so the way I feel is, overall the class mechanics for GWF with it's current feat is "out of place'.
Also I am not talking about mod2,3 broken roar or broken 10k powered 50% feat damage. I am talking about mod 5 and the future of GWF and Cryptic's negligence. I don't want to see an over-powered or under-powered GWF. I want a viable BALANCED GWF. Check my post in barracks, I criticized the over-powered 50% Feat on Sentinel with non-GWF as well. Now I am criticizing the under-powered class mechanics that do not scale sufficiently with 18k+ GS in pvp premade. I am not MY OP < YOUR OP, buhuhuhu I quit, kind of guy and I feel I am being honest when I say my tree IV > Destroyer (the most common GWF tree), does not scale sufficiently.
Imbalance exist in every game, but not to this extent. Cryptic as game developers are outrageously careless.
A team of 5 of the same class is IMO a failed test. GWFs are good enough in pvp atm. They work best with other specific classes, like CWs or rangers. The GWF makes an excellent meatshield and works best when drawing attention from the other team. Asking for a better individual performance is irrelevant: what matters is what a party with different classes and working synergies can do.
Now if you want module 2 back with troll GWFs holding nodes 1 vs 5 I'm sorry but this is gone forever.
so ur saying GWF is meant to be support class?
lmao.
Indirectly you are saying GWF is currently a support class for CW, HR & SW. The problem is it can't support properly - unlike GF with Knight's Valor and DC with their epic heal. The role of a GWF is vague, hit & run for pots and unable to solo vs HR/TR/GF on flag nodes. It's best role as support is taking damage and throw a few cc and hopefully land an IBS when other classes have done sufficient damage to a target.
Yes. but I've read you want destroyer to be viable in pvp. It's not the current design philosophy. See what they've done to CWs and what they're doing to DCs. They want builds to be exclusive choice. Thaum CWs are damage dealers, oppressors are pure controllers with **** damage, renegades are buffers. You can't have a bit of everything (but a different "everything") in each tree anymore. Destroyer is the glass cannon path. You shouldn't expect it to be the best of all trees for pve and pvp because the devs don't want that.
The strengths of the GWFs are the CC imunity, the damage resistance, and the ability to prone to a lesser extent. Asking for damage on top of that is asking for module 2 to be back and this isn't going to happen, and this wouldn't be healthy for pvp either.
IMO the best way to address this issue is offering a dual spec, for pvp and pve, but for some reasons we don't know, the devs seem to be extremely reluctant to give us that option, which would solve many class balance issues.
so ur saying GWF is meant to be support class?
lmao.
So what does it hurt your ego to be one of the strongest support class in-game? Do you really have to be the hero slaughtering the other team 1 vs 5 with no issue to feel better?
So what does it hurt your ego to be one of the strongest support class in-game? Do you really have to be the hero slaughtering the other team 1 vs 5 with no issue to feel better?
no i want to be able to atlast do decent 1v1 w,o dying in 3-5 seconds with 51k hp due do ridiculous dmg other classes can do in no time.
Guys, I do appreciate your efforts and as a statement I ll say that GWF now are in low position to compassion with other classes in pvp.
Im saying this from a point on 21k GS pve HR and 19k GS pvp HR. All my profound gear was suffered and earned in mod 3 with GWF roal kings.
So i do really know what GWF kill machine is. But you results are really bad. Maybe a a team maybe due to other reasons. Yet still result that the other team GWF had most of kills on you say bad about your team play.
As my HRs experience I had time when both in mod 3 (14k gs) and mod 4(19k gs) i had killed teams on 2 CWs and 2 GWF or once a team of 3 GWF and 1 GF - not because Im so good or class is so OP but due to bad team play really. In other situtions 1 good Cw + 1 good GWF is 80% my death call. No matter of regen I have - 1.5k now and 15% LS. Last time I played pvp - around 2-3 weeks ago and checked my ranking I was on page 8 or so.
Yet still I had seen a lot of great GWf with GS close to mine. That killed my 31k HR in one rotation or even in one hit. For sure that GWF knew how to play his class well. It was a good fight and whole fight my work was mostly to keep him away from my team as long as I could. I killed him - he killed me. So this is more requirement of skill and proper rotation of stuns and encounters.
Conclusion - gwf need some buff yes. But not the point where roar gwf king where.
so ur saying GWF is meant to be support class?
lmao.
Laugh as much as u want but thats the truth. For nearly every class except HRs and TRs.
Believe me or not, but I have started playing a gwf again for exact that reason in mod4. Its a real challange now. You have to be coordinated as a team to shine as a gwf, like a cleric. Such thinking might be a joke for players who are used to just smash their keyboards and win a duel or match. Gwfs are not a faceroll class anymore, they are not even a 1vs1 class. But they shine in premades with coordination. No other class has that mobility combined with strong cc. I can rotate faster to outer points than others on their 110% mounts. I can pin down an HR very easily, not killing him, but setting my cc in a kind, that any other class can burst him down.
Most gwfs players are not used to utilize sprint as offensive/defense, dependig on situation. They are not used to actually SUPPORT their team with their strenghs. Stop smashing buttons. Stop running suboptimal builds and using <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> artifacts like heart of the dragon and ravenskull.
Ur screenshot of ur team at the beginnig of a match even indicates that u havent slotted pvp heal potions. Maybe u did, but the screenshot indicates oherwise.
Sorry man, with all due respect, but l2p.
PS: I am not a sent intimi cheese build. I run destro-build. With 5 cheese sents you would have been smashed most of ur opponents faces.
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
@osterdrache, whenever I think of "The Barracks", tank and off tank the two classes that come to mind are:
1. GF
2. GWF
Let's do a little comparison.
1. Knight Valor Support Role: Knight's Valor vs GWF Meat Shield ahead of the pack - which one is better?
2. Bull Charge vs Takedown - Prone vs stun plus bull charge has range
3. KV vs IBS - more damage on KV plus easier to execute
4. Shield vs Sprint
It seems because of the above, the following is true:
1. GF is a better support
2. GF has better CC that can be executed from a range
3. GF has more burst damage
4. GF is more tanky and has higher immunity.
Here is a link of what GF can provide, as a support and a dps melee burst along with it's tanky defense.
I understand a number of these PvP are against pugs but let's not be in denial on the burst damage that GF can provide added to the CC and other support benefits as a melee class.
GF has better and smoother rotation and beats GWF in every area. Again, what's the purpose of GWF when GF is overwhelmingly dominant in all areas as a melee solo OR a melee support? What's the purpose of GWF when TR/HR is dominant is strikingly better in solo flag capture ? What is the purpose of GWF when the DPS is coming from CW & SW?
* GWF has no role in harassing flags
* GWF is a poorer support
* GWF has the worst dps
* GWF are most vulnerable
* GWF damage are the hardest to land
* GWF are the BEST mobile unit that grabs pot for survival, only this is good?
I am sure that's sufficient reason why GWF class mechanics need to be taken to consideration.
You actually wanted to beat Choco Shoppe with their best CWs and GWf all stacked with reds etc. and playing since open beta...
... with a PUG?
Won't work.
Pretty much this. I think the same would hold for some of the other experienced PvP guilds; even with the gear and troll comp, if your rotations are bad and you can't hold the backcap, you're going to have a bad time. Doesn't mean that GWFs aren't really powerful, though. Just means you can't expect to win every match based solely on comp.
I'd like to see the other matches where you guys stomped pugs 1000-0.
@osterdrache, whenever I think of "The Barracks", tank and off tank the two classes that come to mind are:
1. GF
2. GWF
Let's do a little comparison.
1. Knight Valor Support Role: Knight's Valor vs GWF Meat Shield ahead of the pack - which one is better?
2. Bull Charge vs Takedown - Prone vs stun plus bull charge has range
3. KV vs IBS - more damage on KV plus easier to execute
4. Shield vs Sprint
It seems because of the above, the following is true:
1. GF is a better support
2. GF has better CC that can be executed from a range
3. GF has more burst damage
4. GF is more tanky and has higher immunity.
Here is a link of what GF can provide, as a support and a dps melee burst along with it's tanky defense.
I understand a number of these PvP are against pugs but let's not be in denial on the burst damage that GF can provide added to the CC and other support benefits as a melee class.
GF has better and smoother rotation and beats GWF in every area..
^^^^
The differences between the GWF and the Gfs ,as you provided is that every encounter of the GF has to use DEMAND SKILL while GWF button mashing.
Let me clarify:
1.KV is a high risk option for the GF.Not only he loses one of his 3 encounters,but he takes damage from all his team8s.If his team8s in ELOL screw around during twin scorpions or against garakas in esot GF is dead.He takes a lot of practice to hold aggro from bosses ,avoid red,manage your stamina and watch your stupid team8s if they get close to you to keep your dinstance.
Also if a GF will support (99% of his time in parties or kicked) he will have slotted Iron Warrior ,KV and ITF.
Now a relevation to you:NONE OF THESE POWERS DOES DAMAGE.The only damage he can do is by his att wills.
While GWF can be meatshield and also dps significantly.
1.So for me your point 1 is even.GF is better support but this comes in the trade off that it is a pure tank/utility class.
GWF can support less but in thesame time can dps 3x or 4x as the GF can do.
2.Take dawn does 2x-3x the damage of Bull charge.LMAO.Hey.You want bull charge?No prob man If you are honest make a proposition in the barracks the GWF to take the bull charge and the GF the takedawn.Any day.
3.KV ...You meant KC... .Well another revelation to you.KC does 0 (zero) damage.You just lock the opponent in one vs one.At that state you and him do 100% more damage to each other.I ll take IBS hands dawn.You want KC?Take it.
If a GF uses KC in an one vs one ,and the enemy is beware of this and not stunned ,GF with lower crit chance from all classes takes a risk and danger higher than his opponent.Also he loses a sloted normal encounter.A GF with a KC slotted in dps /burst is lower than any GWF rotation.Take your facts strai8.
4.More tanky?Higher CC?Bravery gives you 8% more deflect.Gf struggles to reach 26-29% deflect.While you have 33-40% deflect just for fun.All your sts give you higher deflect than the Gf sets.LMAO
Higher immunity????........... :mad: The GF has higher immunity?......Oh my god.....You are saying the Gf has higher immunity from a GWF?.........
Higher immunity....
The ony immunity Gf has is an 8 sec shift=Block.In that stance he is slow as hell.Add to this that block offers CC immunity just from the FRONT.If a CW at 80 range see a GF blocking he can press one button and GF is frozen or in mid air.
GFs in normal matches are easy picks for an experienced CW as long as the Gf has not sawn him.
While you as GWF have 2 immunities.That cover all corners and angles.Sprint and unstoppable.Enough said.
As for burst damage:
Better burst damage?Burst damage=criticals.Are you even serious?Any GWF build has 2x the critical chance of any GF.
The highest critical GF i have seen is a 29% Gf and that had only 37k hp and severelly lacking in other offensive areas.
We do not have your Bravery feat or Master at Arms sent feat to take deflect and critical for free.
Concerning the video:
I saw an 20k gs GF that used KC on bad /mediocre players.Excpet his second kill.Ants combo there was good.
But in all others the enemy while he saw the one sec KC animation stayed in place.More than that 50% of the kills in the video are against CWs that stand still and try to facetank the GF.All that would have taken them is to dodge.
Most of the others kills are against GFs that are out of block.In most of the kills i recognized the shape of +5 shield and in one kill Grim /Profound shield.Do you know what that means?
+5 shield=8-10k gs
Grim /Profound=13-16k gs.
And even then this is a video.The enemy Gf might run out of block he was facing ant's team8s.In most cases it is one vs 2 or 2 vs 2.
I can make a video of any GWF with 30-35k IBS on 10k Cws .So?
I think the same would hold for some of the other experienced PvP guilds; even with the gear and troll comp, if your rotations are bad and you can't hold the backcap, you're going to have a bad time. Doesn't mean that GWFs aren't really powerful, though. Just means you can't expect to win every match based solely on comp.
I'd like to see the other matches where you guys stomped pugs 1000-0.
I'd like to see those pictures as well.
Face it, OP skewed his own reporting by only showing their loses to one of the best PVP guilds in the game. You can't expect 5 no-name GWFs to compete with Chocolate Shoppe.
I'm sure you guys pug-stomped as well but for some reason, OP isn't showing the matches where their party trolled the other pug team.
@osterdrache, whenever I think of "The Barracks", tank and off tank the two classes that come to mind are:
1. GF
2. GWF
Let's do a little comparison.
1. Knight Valor Support Role: Knight's Valor vs GWF Meat Shield ahead of the pack - which one is better?
2. Bull Charge vs Takedown - Prone vs stun plus bull charge has range
3. KV vs IBS - more damage on KV plus easier to execute
4. Shield vs Sprint
It seems because of the above, the following is true:
1. GF is a better support
2. GF has better CC that can be executed from a range
3. GF has more burst damage
4. GF is more tanky and has higher immunity.
Here is a link of what GF can provide, as a support and a dps melee burst along with it's tanky defense.
I understand a number of these PvP are against pugs but let's not be in denial on the burst damage that GF can provide added to the CC and other support benefits as a melee class.
GF has better and smoother rotation and beats GWF in every area. Again, what's the purpose of GWF when GF is overwhelmingly dominant in all areas as a melee solo OR a melee support? What's the purpose of GWF when TR/HR is dominant is strikingly better in solo flag capture ? What is the purpose of GWF when the DPS is coming from CW & SW?
* GWF has no role in harassing flags
* GWF is a poorer support
* GWF has the worst dps
* GWF are most vulnerable
* GWF damage are the hardest to land
* GWF are the BEST mobile unit that grabs pot for survival, only this is good?
I am sure that's sufficient reason why GWF class mechanics need to be taken to consideration.
Lotsa BS written here^ using BS video vs GS scrubs to prove a point.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The differences between the GWF and the Gfs ,as you provided is that every encounter of the GF has to use DEMAND SKILL while GWF button mashing.
Let me clarify:
1.KV is a high risk option for the GF.Not only he loses one of his 3 encounters,but he takes damage from all his team8s.If his team8s in ELOL screw around during twin scorpions or against garakas in esot GF is dead.He takes a lot of practice to hold aggro from bosses ,avoid red,manage your stamina and watch your stupid team8s if they get close to you to keep your dinstance.
Also if a GF will support (99% of his time in parties or kicked) he will have slotted Iron Warrior ,KV and ITF.
Now a relevation to you:NONE OF THESE POWERS DOES DAMAGE.The only damage he can do is by his att wills.
While GWF can be meatshield and also dps significantly.
1.So for me your point 1 is even.GF is better support but this comes in the trade off that it is a pure tank/utility class.
GWF can support less but in thesame time can dps 3x or 4x as the GF can do.
2.Take dawn does 2x-3x the damage of Bull charge.LMAO.Hey.You want bull charge?No prob man If you are honest make a proposition in the barracks the GWF to take the bull charge and the GF the takedawn.Any day.
3.KV ...You meant KC... .Well another revelation to you.KC does 0 (zero) damage.You just lock the opponent in one vs one.At that state you and him do 100% more damage to each other.I ll take IBS hands dawn.You want KC?Take it.
If a GF uses KC in an one vs one ,and the enemy is beware of this and not stunned ,GF with lower crit chance from all classes takes a risk and danger higher than his opponent.Also he loses a sloted normal encounter.A GF with a KC slotted in dps /burst is lower than any GWF rotation.Take your facts strai8.
4.More tanky?Higher CC?Bravery gives you 8% more deflect.Gf struggles to reach 26-29% deflect.While you have 33-40% deflect just for fun.All your sts give you higher deflect than the Gf sets.LMAO
Higher immunity????........... :mad: The GF has higher immunity?......Oh my god.....You are saying the Gf has higher immunity from a GWF?.........
Higher immunity....
The ony immunity Gf has is an 8 sec shift=Block.In that stance he is slow as hell.Add to this that block offers CC immunity just from the FRONT.If a CW at 80 range see a GF blocking he can press one button and GF is frozen or in mid air.
GFs in normal matches are easy picks for an experienced CW as long as the Gf has not sawn him.
While you as GWF have 2 immunities.That cover all corners and angles.Sprint and unstoppable.Enough said.
As for burst damage:
Better burst damage?Burst damage=criticals.Are you even serious?Any GWF build has 2x the critical chance of any GF.
The highest critical GF i have seen is a 29% Gf and that had only 37k hp and severelly lacking in other offensive areas.
We do not have your Bravery feat or Master at Arms sent feat to take deflect and critical for free.
Concerning the video:
I saw an 20k gs GF that used KC on bad /mediocre players.Excpet his second kill.Ants combo there was good.
But in all others the enemy while he saw the one sec KC animation stayed in place.More than that 50% of the kills in the video are against CWs that stand still and try to facetank the GF.All that would have taken them is to dodge.
Most of the others kills are against GFs that are out of block.In most of the kills i recognized the shape of +5 shield and in one kill Grim /Profound shield.Do you know what that means?
+5 shield=8-10k gs
Grim /Profound=13-16k gs.
And even then this is a video.The enemy Gf might run out of block he was facing ant's team8s.In most cases it is one vs 2 or 2 vs 2.
I can make a video of any GWF with 30-35k IBS on 10k Cws .So?
Thanks man for taking the time to write what I think down, I couldnt bring myself to do it. Nezrael is yet another hopeless player who desperately wants to be OP at all costs.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
I meant Anvil of Doom not KC.
Takedown vs Bull Charge : PvP wise Bull Charge is a prone. Takedown is a stun. You say Takedown (stun) is better than prone? You have got to be joking! Additionally Bull Charge covers a range, something that GWF has to do with Sprint > Takedown or TR > Takedown. The reaction times are a lot faster and safer. Also do you know the difference between a stun and prone?
Anvil of Doom vs IBS You execute this only after a target is prone or stunned. The damage scales much better.
Sprint vs Shield I think even people who don't play neverwinter would know which one is stronger.
Overall defense Don't tell me you think GF is more tanky and survive more than GWF.
It's a known fact, on 1v1 GF vs GWF 18k+ GS, a GF is miles ahead. Or are you claiming they stand on equal grounds ? In what world is this true? Please don't distort the FACTS.
Takedown vs Bull Charge : PvP wise Bull Charge is a prone. Takedown is a stun. You say Takedown (stun) is better than prone? You have got to be joking! Additionally Bull Charge covers a range, something that GWF has to do with Sprint > Takedown or TR > Takedown. The reaction times are a lot faster and safer. Also do you know the difference between a stun and prone?
Anvil of Doom vs IBS You execute this only after a target is prone or stunned. The damage scales much better.
Sprint vs Shield I think even people who don't play neverwinter would know which one is stronger.
Overall defense Don't tell me you think GF is more tanky and survive more than GWF.
It's a known fact, on 1v1 GF vs GWF 18k+ GS, a GF is miles ahead. Or are you claiming they stand on equal grounds ? In what world is this true? Please don't distort the FACTS.
A GWF that knows how to sprint, and use corners to prevent the GF from charging him too often and closing GAPs, can beat the hell out of a GF at equal gear. I believe what's missing from your analysis sir, is SKILL.
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
A GWF that knows how to sprint, and use corners to prevent the GF from charging him too often and closing GAPs, can beat the hell out of a GF at equal gear. I believe what's missing from your analysis sir, is SKILL.
1. I am a GWF in page ranking between pages 35-60 on average, so I think I understand my class mechanics.
2. You can use sprinting behind GF use TD and execute some damage as much as you want but at the end GF will overwhelmingly dominate a GWF on same GS as long as it's 18k+. The difference of 1v1 PvP GWF and GF is significant. Again, this is a known FACT. A lot of strong players have tested this over and over again, and resulted in the same outcome, some top level GWF have also switched to GF before mod 4 release.
Additionally I am not saying GF should be nerfed. I think GF is fine the way it is, it's GWF that needs a boost! I would give up the immune free sprint for better unstoppable and better damage/defense/cc any given day.
GWF have 2 immunities.That cover all corners and angles.Sprint and unstoppable.
Sprint: It's not that when there is more than one boss and one add the ground is 100% red and there is nowhere to sprint to. It's that running away from the danger has never ever been what a Melee fighter does. It's an out of the blue, absurd invention by one dev in one game. Unfortunately this one.
Unstoppable: It's not only that cc is not what kills you, it's how are you supposed to ever build it? Even the damage by trash mobs kills you, a full Unstoppable bar is useless when dead at campfire.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Well, that Steamroller GWF did pretty well in the match. Outperformed the 4 CWs in kills and caps.
Co-Founder of -Valor-
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
Here, since I was in the PvP let me explain what happened:
1. Red Glyph + CW = The damage was so 50% to 70% of our health nearly evaporated by time we sprinted to flag at start.
* Notice we are all on purified black ice x 4, that's the most tank armor available.
2. After that our team got broken running in all directions and they out each GWF one at a time almost evaporated each time we approached. (we tried hitting different flag points by breaking them)
3. Whatever was left was under CC, in this state a GWF can land a finisher and take a kill.
4. Personally, unlike pugs these CW were better skilled and dodged my CC attacks (takedown, I also tried FLS) and I am sure my team felt the same.
5. By the time we could successfully land say, 1 IBS the next minute we were dead.
The GWF got a free CC thanks to the CW and using a broken feat. Rest of what is out-perform ? Looking at the score line and capturing flag when everyone is dead? SW is also quite formidable. So CW and SW have clear strong roles as dps. In reality, a 5th CW would have worked even better for that team - may be we were lucky to get that 2 points.
To me this game play is a major concern. Why? Because majority of GWF play IV > Destroyer for PvP. It's the most popular GWF class, most forum posts in barracks focus on this tree.
About mod 5
Now mod 5 there is changes being made to CW, HR and SW. So it's worth waiting and seeing.
TR - lost perma stealth, but in return gained more damage and I think it will still out-do GWF for same GS. Not sure yet.
GF will still beat GWF in the same margin and it's significant.
I am also doubtful if HR changes will bring an equal balance. But again, it's worth wait and see how the new change effects each class.
DC has some interesting changes, and it's too early to say anything yet.
However the new gears that are going to roll out, seem to be big and GWF will scale with the least benefit. I really think the GWF needs at least "1" prone to be viable, so we can land our major encounters. Right now the miss % ratio is too high and does not feel smooth vs a lot of classes. I honestly feel, the changes in mod5 will be insufficient for our class and the developers need to re-evaluate our class mechanics.
A lot of players are not even aware of the condition of gwf class. "How can you be 19k+ gs and deliver less than 2 millions damage when I deliver more than ten millions with my 14k gs?" was a question from a CW yesterday. They think in good faith that the difference between a CW and a GWF is just a stylish one, Melee instead of Ranged, and they think that the overall performance is similar.
In WoW, among DPS classes the difference between the one with highest DPS and the one with lowest DPS is less than 10%. Here it is 400%.
Converning PvE (I think alot of class changes are terrible as they effect PvP mostly and do not consider PvE, they really need to start separating the two and making changes for each separately.)
Ahaha yah, I have been out DPS'd by 14k CWs in Skirmish (I'm 18k+ Destroyer). I had around 1.5m and he had 3.4m. I have 3 slotted Epic Artifacts and he only had 1 Rare quality
The significant loss of damage is the result of multiple nerfs and the fact that CWs can effectively spam AoE while never taking damage at a range... whereas if a GWF uses an AoE setup either you don't have enough threat to even land the hits or you will be QUICKLY overrun since you are trying to face tank hoards of mobs.
The best we can hope for is moderate single-target DPS and assist with kiting. I just ran eLoL several times and both CWs in my group had 1-5m higher damage despite being similar GS.
It remains a fact that putting the same amount of time, effort, money into GS and build on a GWF will net you less DPS and less success than if you did the same on a HR, TR, CW, or SW. Albeit, not in PvE vs. a TR. I understand the buffs TR gets in PvE, it's much-needed to make them useful outside of Domination.
After Mod 5, GWF will literally be bottom of the totem pole in DPS classes. Only now we can choose if we want to be Instigator, Destroyer, or Sentinel and still remain horribly viable.
nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
@masterofmirage Right now of all the class GWF has the worst burst, except while in unstoppable (which lasts an extremely short period). I think burst damage is a critical feature and absolute necessity in PvP. GWF is also the most vulnerable class, as DR% will be nullified to almost nothing, all you have is high stacked HP to survive. Other classes have dodge, hp leech, shield for GF and that's why some even joke - "I wanted be more tanky, I switched to CW". The design of a beserker can never be, jack of all trades, by class mechanics design. HR/SW/TR have better mechanic for this kind of role. The problem is they gave "jack of all trades" stats in a class mechanic that works differently. DPS works with range, Tank works with melee - when you try to stuff dps into an off tank the class gets too strong, if you take away the defense the class dies too fast, if you give the tank and take away the dps it's worse than a pure tank. The mistake they made was forcing a major part of GF into GWF and the class mechanic needs major corrections, sloppy & lazy. The current GWF is nothing but a second-hand support class for range classes, take the beating and hopelessly rely on the range toons in your class. If they CC enough, GWF will do well use their given damage to land some ibs and finish them off - if they fail you are toast or play hit & run for pots.
Lastly PvE and PvP build are completely different builds with a difference of 20k HP, and AoW set. You need to build a second character. However I am not a fan of a PvE GWF, I play PvE with GF (which to me serves a better role as Melee class than a PvE oriented GWF any given day). There is no real purpose of a PvE GWF as there no need for an off tank. Tank is GF, Heal is DC, dps is CW/SW/HR. TR and GWF in PvE ? Ugh, I don't know man.
The reason I play GWF is I always play a beserker role for PvP in any MMORPG. This is what I enjoy, and in a game the entire idea is to have fun (not necessarily be the OP class). However at this point, I feel the GWF needs more steam to be "viable".
Comments
#GWF specially IV > Destroyer (the most popular GWF path) is the least desired PvP class in premade.
#GWF is the least desired PvE class in a guild team
DPS ? CW/SW/HR
Heal? DC
Tank? GF
The class that fits in when no one else is available - GWF
The class that's non existent in PvE - TR
Additionally, I don't mind different builds at all:
#I would love to have two different level 60 builds on alts on toons if only they made ALL the gears/ equip "Account" bound instead of "Character"
OR
#I want to be able to switch path without any cost (AD) so I can switch between Sentinel & Destroyer.
This is a fail policy that developers put in the game and it will NEVER change. So no point talking about it.
Indirectly you are saying GWF is currently a support class for CW, HR & SW. The problem is it can't support properly - unlike GF with Knight's Valor and DC with their epic heal. The role of a GWF is vague, hit & run for pots and unable to solo vs HR/TR/GF on flag nodes.
Red glyph and DR% collapsing to RI%, is down almost to non-existent against premade teams. To say GWF is a meat shield and can face-tank is suicide. So I disagree with you there! It's best role as support is taking "some" damage and throw a few cc and hopefully land an IBS when other classes have done sufficient damage to a target. But look, this class mechanic just feels stupid. 1v1 against Hr/Tr/GF forget it. So on solo flag nodes it doesn't have a spot either. Team vs team in middle, like you termed it "meat shield or buffer layer for DPS classes" or how I see it "hit & run for pots or die".
And so the way I feel is, overall the class mechanics for GWF with it's current feat is "out of place'.
Also I am not talking about mod2,3 broken roar or broken 10k powered 50% feat damage. I am talking about mod 5 and the future of GWF and Cryptic's negligence. I don't want to see an over-powered or under-powered GWF. I want a viable BALANCED GWF. Check my post in barracks, I criticized the over-powered 50% Feat on Sentinel with non-GWF as well. Now I am criticizing the under-powered class mechanics that do not scale sufficiently with 18k+ GS in pvp premade. I am not MY OP < YOUR OP, buhuhuhu I quit, kind of guy and I feel I am being honest when I say my tree IV > Destroyer (the most common GWF tree), does not scale sufficiently.
Imbalance exist in every game, but not to this extent. Cryptic as game developers are outrageously careless.
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so ur saying GWF is meant to be support class?
lmao.
Yes. but I've read you want destroyer to be viable in pvp. It's not the current design philosophy. See what they've done to CWs and what they're doing to DCs. They want builds to be exclusive choice. Thaum CWs are damage dealers, oppressors are pure controllers with **** damage, renegades are buffers. You can't have a bit of everything (but a different "everything") in each tree anymore. Destroyer is the glass cannon path. You shouldn't expect it to be the best of all trees for pve and pvp because the devs don't want that.
The strengths of the GWFs are the CC imunity, the damage resistance, and the ability to prone to a lesser extent. Asking for damage on top of that is asking for module 2 to be back and this isn't going to happen, and this wouldn't be healthy for pvp either.
IMO the best way to address this issue is offering a dual spec, for pvp and pve, but for some reasons we don't know, the devs seem to be extremely reluctant to give us that option, which would solve many class balance issues.
So what does it hurt your ego to be one of the strongest support class in-game? Do you really have to be the hero slaughtering the other team 1 vs 5 with no issue to feel better?
Im saying this from a point on 21k GS pve HR and 19k GS pvp HR. All my profound gear was suffered and earned in mod 3 with GWF roal kings.
So i do really know what GWF kill machine is. But you results are really bad. Maybe a a team maybe due to other reasons. Yet still result that the other team GWF had most of kills on you say bad about your team play.
As my HRs experience I had time when both in mod 3 (14k gs) and mod 4(19k gs) i had killed teams on 2 CWs and 2 GWF or once a team of 3 GWF and 1 GF - not because Im so good or class is so OP but due to bad team play really. In other situtions 1 good Cw + 1 good GWF is 80% my death call. No matter of regen I have - 1.5k now and 15% LS. Last time I played pvp - around 2-3 weeks ago and checked my ranking I was on page 8 or so.
Yet still I had seen a lot of great GWf with GS close to mine. That killed my 31k HR in one rotation or even in one hit. For sure that GWF knew how to play his class well. It was a good fight and whole fight my work was mostly to keep him away from my team as long as I could. I killed him - he killed me. So this is more requirement of skill and proper rotation of stuns and encounters.
Conclusion - gwf need some buff yes. But not the point where roar gwf king where.
Laugh as much as u want but thats the truth. For nearly every class except HRs and TRs.
Believe me or not, but I have started playing a gwf again for exact that reason in mod4. Its a real challange now. You have to be coordinated as a team to shine as a gwf, like a cleric. Such thinking might be a joke for players who are used to just smash their keyboards and win a duel or match. Gwfs are not a faceroll class anymore, they are not even a 1vs1 class. But they shine in premades with coordination. No other class has that mobility combined with strong cc. I can rotate faster to outer points than others on their 110% mounts. I can pin down an HR very easily, not killing him, but setting my cc in a kind, that any other class can burst him down.
Most gwfs players are not used to utilize sprint as offensive/defense, dependig on situation. They are not used to actually SUPPORT their team with their strenghs. Stop smashing buttons. Stop running suboptimal builds and using <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> artifacts like heart of the dragon and ravenskull.
Ur screenshot of ur team at the beginnig of a match even indicates that u havent slotted pvp heal potions. Maybe u did, but the screenshot indicates oherwise.
Sorry man, with all due respect, but l2p.
PS: I am not a sent intimi cheese build. I run destro-build. With 5 cheese sents you would have been smashed most of ur opponents faces.
1. GF
2. GWF
Let's do a little comparison.
1. Knight Valor Support Role: Knight's Valor vs GWF Meat Shield ahead of the pack - which one is better?
2. Bull Charge vs Takedown - Prone vs stun plus bull charge has range
3. KV vs IBS - more damage on KV plus easier to execute
4. Shield vs Sprint
It seems because of the above, the following is true:
1. GF is a better support
2. GF has better CC that can be executed from a range
3. GF has more burst damage
4. GF is more tanky and has higher immunity.
Here is a link of what GF can provide, as a support and a dps melee burst along with it's tanky defense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anzMjRXrw5o&list=UUg0dB-q8CEFaWzpbRYkMV1g
I understand a number of these PvP are against pugs but let's not be in denial on the burst damage that GF can provide added to the CC and other support benefits as a melee class.
GF has better and smoother rotation and beats GWF in every area. Again, what's the purpose of GWF when GF is overwhelmingly dominant in all areas as a melee solo OR a melee support? What's the purpose of GWF when TR/HR is dominant is strikingly better in solo flag capture ? What is the purpose of GWF when the DPS is coming from CW & SW?
* GWF has no role in harassing flags
* GWF is a poorer support
* GWF has the worst dps
* GWF are most vulnerable
* GWF damage are the hardest to land
* GWF are the BEST mobile unit that grabs pot for survival, only this is good?
I am sure that's sufficient reason why GWF class mechanics need to be taken to consideration.
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Pretty much this. I think the same would hold for some of the other experienced PvP guilds; even with the gear and troll comp, if your rotations are bad and you can't hold the backcap, you're going to have a bad time. Doesn't mean that GWFs aren't really powerful, though. Just means you can't expect to win every match based solely on comp.
I'd like to see the other matches where you guys stomped pugs 1000-0.
^^^^
The differences between the GWF and the Gfs ,as you provided is that every encounter of the GF has to use DEMAND SKILL while GWF button mashing.
Let me clarify:
1.KV is a high risk option for the GF.Not only he loses one of his 3 encounters,but he takes damage from all his team8s.If his team8s in ELOL screw around during twin scorpions or against garakas in esot GF is dead.He takes a lot of practice to hold aggro from bosses ,avoid red,manage your stamina and watch your stupid team8s if they get close to you to keep your dinstance.
Also if a GF will support (99% of his time in parties or kicked) he will have slotted Iron Warrior ,KV and ITF.
Now a relevation to you:NONE OF THESE POWERS DOES DAMAGE.The only damage he can do is by his att wills.
While GWF can be meatshield and also dps significantly.
1.So for me your point 1 is even.GF is better support but this comes in the trade off that it is a pure tank/utility class.
GWF can support less but in thesame time can dps 3x or 4x as the GF can do.
2.Take dawn does 2x-3x the damage of Bull charge.LMAO.Hey.You want bull charge?No prob man
3.KV ...You meant KC... .Well another revelation to you.KC does 0 (zero) damage.You just lock the opponent in one vs one.At that state you and him do 100% more damage to each other.I ll take IBS hands dawn.You want KC?Take it.
If a GF uses KC in an one vs one ,and the enemy is beware of this and not stunned ,GF with lower crit chance from all classes takes a risk and danger higher than his opponent.Also he loses a sloted normal encounter.A GF with a KC slotted in dps /burst is lower than any GWF rotation.Take your facts strai8.
4.More tanky?Higher CC?Bravery gives you 8% more deflect.Gf struggles to reach 26-29% deflect.While you have 33-40% deflect just for fun.All your sts give you higher deflect than the Gf sets.LMAO
Higher immunity????........... :mad:
Higher immunity....
The ony immunity Gf has is an 8 sec shift=Block.In that stance he is slow as hell.Add to this that block offers CC immunity just from the FRONT.If a CW at 80 range see a GF blocking he can press one button and GF is frozen or in mid air.
GFs in normal matches are easy picks for an experienced CW as long as the Gf has not sawn him.
While you as GWF have 2 immunities.That cover all corners and angles.Sprint and unstoppable.Enough said.
As for burst damage:
Better burst damage?Burst damage=criticals.Are you even serious?Any GWF build has 2x the critical chance of any GF.
The highest critical GF i have seen is a 29% Gf and that had only 37k hp and severelly lacking in other offensive areas.
We do not have your Bravery feat or Master at Arms sent feat to take deflect and critical for free.
Concerning the video:
I saw an 20k gs GF that used KC on bad /mediocre players.Excpet his second kill.Ants combo there was good.
But in all others the enemy while he saw the one sec KC animation stayed in place.More than that 50% of the kills in the video are against CWs that stand still and try to facetank the GF.All that would have taken them is to dodge.
Most of the others kills are against GFs that are out of block.In most of the kills i recognized the shape of +5 shield and in one kill Grim /Profound shield.Do you know what that means?
+5 shield=8-10k gs
Grim /Profound=13-16k gs.
And even then this is a video.The enemy Gf might run out of block he was facing ant's team8s.In most cases it is one vs 2 or 2 vs 2.
I can make a video of any GWF with 30-35k IBS on 10k Cws .So?
I'd like to see those pictures as well.
Face it, OP skewed his own reporting by only showing their loses to one of the best PVP guilds in the game. You can't expect 5 no-name GWFs to compete with Chocolate Shoppe.
I'm sure you guys pug-stomped as well but for some reason, OP isn't showing the matches where their party trolled the other pug team.
Lotsa BS written here^ using BS video vs GS scrubs to prove a point.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Thanks man for taking the time to write what I think down, I couldnt bring myself to do it. Nezrael is yet another hopeless player who desperately wants to be OP at all costs.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Takedown vs Bull Charge : PvP wise Bull Charge is a prone. Takedown is a stun. You say Takedown (stun) is better than prone? You have got to be joking! Additionally Bull Charge covers a range, something that GWF has to do with Sprint > Takedown or TR > Takedown. The reaction times are a lot faster and safer. Also do you know the difference between a stun and prone?
Anvil of Doom vs IBS You execute this only after a target is prone or stunned. The damage scales much better.
Sprint vs Shield I think even people who don't play neverwinter would know which one is stronger.
Overall defense Don't tell me you think GF is more tanky and survive more than GWF.
It's a known fact, on 1v1 GF vs GWF 18k+ GS, a GF is miles ahead. Or are you claiming they stand on equal grounds ? In what world is this true? Please don't distort the FACTS.
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1. I am a GWF in page ranking between pages 35-60 on average, so I think I understand my class mechanics.
2. You can use sprinting behind GF use TD and execute some damage as much as you want but at the end GF will overwhelmingly dominate a GWF on same GS as long as it's 18k+. The difference of 1v1 PvP GWF and GF is significant. Again, this is a known FACT. A lot of strong players have tested this over and over again, and resulted in the same outcome, some top level GWF have also switched to GF before mod 4 release.
Additionally I am not saying GF should be nerfed. I think GF is fine the way it is, it's GWF that needs a boost! I would give up the immune free sprint for better unstoppable and better damage/defense/cc any given day.
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Sprint: It's not that when there is more than one boss and one add the ground is 100% red and there is nowhere to sprint to. It's that running away from the danger has never ever been what a Melee fighter does. It's an out of the blue, absurd invention by one dev in one game. Unfortunately this one.
Unstoppable: It's not only that cc is not what kills you, it's how are you supposed to ever build it? Even the damage by trash mobs kills you, a full Unstoppable bar is useless when dead at campfire.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Well, that Steamroller GWF did pretty well in the match. Outperformed the 4 CWs in kills and caps.
1. Red Glyph + CW = The damage was so 50% to 70% of our health nearly evaporated by time we sprinted to flag at start.
* Notice we are all on purified black ice x 4, that's the most tank armor available.
2. After that our team got broken running in all directions and they out each GWF one at a time almost evaporated each time we approached. (we tried hitting different flag points by breaking them)
3. Whatever was left was under CC, in this state a GWF can land a finisher and take a kill.
4. Personally, unlike pugs these CW were better skilled and dodged my CC attacks (takedown, I also tried FLS) and I am sure my team felt the same.
5. By the time we could successfully land say, 1 IBS the next minute we were dead.
The GWF got a free CC thanks to the CW and using a broken feat. Rest of what is out-perform ? Looking at the score line and capturing flag when everyone is dead? SW is also quite formidable. So CW and SW have clear strong roles as dps. In reality, a 5th CW would have worked even better for that team - may be we were lucky to get that 2 points.
To me this game play is a major concern. Why? Because majority of GWF play IV > Destroyer for PvP. It's the most popular GWF class, most forum posts in barracks focus on this tree.
About mod 5
Now mod 5 there is changes being made to CW, HR and SW. So it's worth waiting and seeing.
TR - lost perma stealth, but in return gained more damage and I think it will still out-do GWF for same GS. Not sure yet.
GF will still beat GWF in the same margin and it's significant.
I am also doubtful if HR changes will bring an equal balance. But again, it's worth wait and see how the new change effects each class.
DC has some interesting changes, and it's too early to say anything yet.
However the new gears that are going to roll out, seem to be big and GWF will scale with the least benefit. I really think the GWF needs at least "1" prone to be viable, so we can land our major encounters. Right now the miss % ratio is too high and does not feel smooth vs a lot of classes. I honestly feel, the changes in mod5 will be insufficient for our class and the developers need to re-evaluate our class mechanics.
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lol.
at least unlock your third boon and get to iwd before posting.
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Converning PvE (I think alot of class changes are terrible as they effect PvP mostly and do not consider PvE, they really need to start separating the two and making changes for each separately.)
Ahaha yah, I have been out DPS'd by 14k CWs in Skirmish (I'm 18k+ Destroyer). I had around 1.5m and he had 3.4m. I have 3 slotted Epic Artifacts and he only had 1 Rare quality
The significant loss of damage is the result of multiple nerfs and the fact that CWs can effectively spam AoE while never taking damage at a range... whereas if a GWF uses an AoE setup either you don't have enough threat to even land the hits or you will be QUICKLY overrun since you are trying to face tank hoards of mobs.
The best we can hope for is moderate single-target DPS and assist with kiting. I just ran eLoL several times and both CWs in my group had 1-5m higher damage despite being similar GS.
It remains a fact that putting the same amount of time, effort, money into GS and build on a GWF will net you less DPS and less success than if you did the same on a HR, TR, CW, or SW. Albeit, not in PvE vs. a TR. I understand the buffs TR gets in PvE, it's much-needed to make them useful outside of Domination.
After Mod 5, GWF will literally be bottom of the totem pole in DPS classes. Only now we can choose if we want to be Instigator, Destroyer, or Sentinel and still remain horribly viable.
HUZZAH! -_-
Lastly PvE and PvP build are completely different builds with a difference of 20k HP, and AoW set. You need to build a second character. However I am not a fan of a PvE GWF, I play PvE with GF (which to me serves a better role as Melee class than a PvE oriented GWF any given day). There is no real purpose of a PvE GWF as there no need for an off tank. Tank is GF, Heal is DC, dps is CW/SW/HR. TR and GWF in PvE ? Ugh, I don't know man.
The reason I play GWF is I always play a beserker role for PvP in any MMORPG. This is what I enjoy, and in a game the entire idea is to have fun (not necessarily be the OP class). However at this point, I feel the GWF needs more steam to be "viable".
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