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Class Advocacy Thread: Mod 5 TR Feedback and Suggestions.
todesfaelle
Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
**IMPORTANT: PLEASE MAKE SURE TO READ THE SENTENCES IN BOLD.**
Hello, my brothers and sisters in subterfuge and deception. First and foremost, I'm honored to be of service to my fellow rogues as the TR Class Advocate. I am known as Banelorne in-game, a casual player and an avid theorycrafter, and one of the first few players who swore by the path of stealth early in the beta phase of the game. Although I haven't had a lot of time to play lately due to the nature of my work, I still wish to do my part for the Rogue community and continue my contributions by collecting your valuable feedback.
I'm looking forward to seeing the Mod 5 Rogue that resulted from everyone's ideas! I swear to be impartial to any and all feedback, and will do my best to deliver it to our developers in the most organized and timely manner.
Now for the fun part, the one where you get to help the community by voicing your feedback about our beloved TR class. You can start by answering the following questions I'll be listing below!
**Please help me collect your feedback easier by making sure that the text for your posts are colored the same as the questions below.**
1. What do you like about the TR class? - Whether it be the part where you get to contest nodes by yourself in PVP, or how your gear looks menacing, list 'em all here.
2. What do you LEAST like about the TR class? - Opposite of #1, do you dislike the incredulously minute damage we do in PVE, or how clunky certain skills work, if you dislike it, it belongs here.
3. In what direction do you want to see this class go? - Ripped off from Akro's post, because everyone deserves an opportunity to have their answers to this question heard.
And that's basically it, everyone. 3 simple questions that would help shape the future of the TR class. Please feel free to discuss with your fellow rogues in this thread!
**If you feel that the point you are trying to get across in the discussion is something that should be included in my weekly feedback reports, please highlight them LIME. This'll make the feedback inside your discussions a tad easier to spot.**
Please keep any and all feedback and discussions respectful and civil as every post is subject to moderation. We all want our points to get across, so let's make sure that it DOES get to the right people abiding by our forum rules!
I thank everyone in advance for your cooperation and I'm looking forward to seeing the rebirth of the rogue class with the help of your feedback!
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Comments
It's just been fun to play tbh and that's despite the recent lack of damage within dungeons - I've been a PVE damage rogue since beta and I've enjoyed this class and it's not normally one I would pick in a game.
Two swords..... enough said
2. What do you LEAST like about the TR class? - Opposite of #1, do you dislike the incredulously minute damage we do in PVE, or how clunky certain skills work, if you dislike it, it belongs here.
We need to be useful in dungeons, right now our single target damage is on par with several other classes who can also perform well for AOE or control. Single target is all we have so we should be the masters of that.
Our dodges seem underwhelming, we're expected to stand next to enemies in order to damage them but lack survivability, and high DPS rogues tend to get a lot of agro from bosses but I dont feel our ability to dodge attacks if sufficient.
3. In what direction do you want to see this class go? - Ripped off from Akro's post, because everyone deserves an opportunity to have their answers to this question heard.
As above, we need to be useful and wanted in dungeons, more damage would be awesome but also hard to increase dungeon damage without making PVP unfair like in the beta days.
Can't really comment too much on PVP myself, whilst I do dabble occasionally, I tend to stick to dungeons
2) The above playstyle doesn't really work. CWs beat me to the punch, my encounters and dailies are slow, there are too few effects I can apply (and most of those are bugged in some form or another), and even the dodge roll is counter-intuitive: It rolls me far out of combat and takes too long to actually perform the dodge. HR definitely has the advantage over TR in this
3) Faster Cast Times
Aside from that, bring our damage back up. We don't need to be tanky or AoE bosses, we just need to kill stuff dead fast. (For you PvPers, I know everyone's going to whine and complain about how OP the TR's damage is. That's the point of a rogue - high damage, very squishy. Also, I want to see scoundrel really become a scoundrel tree. Stack on the effects. Disrupts, microstuns, small DoTs, DR debuff - those are all scoundrel-type abilities. Heck, even a small trip would be wonderful. Let's move away from the perma saboteur or pure damage executioner and make a fun, tricky TR.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
HRs are the perfect counter to TRs, CWs, and GWFs. Unfortunately, the HR advocate might not be too keen on exposing this detail
I like the basic design of the class, a striker that is capable and yet vulnerable at the same time. It can deal decent damage to a single target and via stealth and ITC is able to 'buy' some time to scan the battlefield for more important targets or comrades in distress. It can provide some more challenging play compared to the rest of the classes (well challenging for this game but still too easy for my tastes) and it is capable of contributing to a group from its limited toolset if played correctly. It has a somewhat focused role and appears to be designed with that task in mind.
2. What do you LEAST like about the TR class?
Other classes are superior at delivering damage to a single target than the TR currently is. Some of this is due to the mechanics of combat where ranged classes can more safely focus on this without having to concern themselves with positioning. Since the TR requires very close proximity to a target they will often 'miss' and simply hit air because the target moved or was moved by a power of another party member. TR also suffers from weak mobs or too powerful ranged AE attacks where the targets can all be killed before the TR can get into range to participate. Even on bosses that survive long enough for the TR to engage in melee the TR will often not be able to deliver enough damage to compete with the rapid burst capabilities of the other classes and will not have time for the highest TR damage (the dot bleed from duelists' flurry) to work its effects -- and even when the bleed is allowed to perform other classes have attacks that still deliver superior damage over time than bleed and even the combination of bleed with the actual flurry attack itself.
The movements of the TR are rather sluggish compared to most other classes. We don't feel nimble like an SW or GWF and our dodge even feels inferior to the DC dodge (it could just seem that way or it could be from the animation itself). For a supposedly lightweight and nimble class we feel more like a clumsy off-balance class. We are very vulnerable when making our only effective attack (duelist flurry) and all of our attacks seem to plant us and compromise us leaving us vulnerable to easily being countered and caught flat footed. We often have to spend our dodges to free ourselves up from our own messed up attacks that we don't have them ready to avoid the counters.
Many of our powers and feats don't seem to work or will fail too often. Stealth gets bugged and will not refill, ITC only works against some things and even stealthed ITC will result in a dead TR if you use it against the wrong target. Our bait and switch decoy often will not draw an enemies attacks and even when stealthed the enemy will still pursue and attack the TR. If we open up with our smoke bomb from stealth in a pack of dangerous enemy we will draw their attacks and become visible before our smoke bomb applies itself and we will generally die. In some cases it is necessary to slot shadow strike, ITC, and smoke bomb just to be able to use smoke bomb and not die.
With the chaos of reckless and easy combat many times the party will dance about foolishly turning packs of enemy upon the helpless TR (think GWF, SW, melee CW) and we cannot absorb the hits of these actions as there is not time to react to them. Many bosses see through stealth and thus the game is being deliberately designed to defeat the main skill/defense of the TR. Even the new SW class can deliver impressive damage while constantly moving and everyone who has played this game for any length of time knows that if you keep moving 99% of the enemy in this game cannot damage you and thus they can deliver damage to ours that exceeds or is just as competitive without facing any risk.
Other classes get bonus stats virtually free where the TR has to dedicate enchantments for the task. While I prefer to have to make choices for a build, if the other classes are simply left to stack extra power or life steal then so should the TR with the basic stats coming at just such a free cost.
3. In what direction do you want to see this class go?
I would like the class to be the best at performing its narrow role. I would prefer the game to be better balanced around the enemy and the other classes than to see the TR get buffed up to the levels necessary to definitively do this (as I feel that would be too game breaking and the game is way too damned easy as it is). The TR performs well against the design of the game it is just the other classes perform so much better at both what they do and what the TR does that the TR has become unneeded.
I would like the class to have a more nimble feel and for the dodge design to be reexamined as the TR, of all the classes, needs the most dodges and the cleanest movement and attack capabilities. I would like to see more 'trickery' to the TR from a passive form, perhaps if we get hit we have a chance to proc a short small area smoke bomb and we will be shifted to the enemies back. We need some passive form of defense where we don't have to waste two encounters on the hopes of being able to survive as we do now. Our defense should not come from might but instead from our deceptive and tricky nature.
1. What do you like about the TR class?
Actually, not a lot of thing, to be honest.
A rogue is not exactely the opposit of what we get here in neverwinter, but at least, it's close...
I especially like powers like dazing strike, deft strike and lashing blade, those are close to what a rogue is in any RPG... But here, they do not work really well (example : deft strike : more than 11s of cooldown for the same damages as an at-will, if it is not less... and even not a dodge-like immunity)
I also like how stealth work actually (aka the ability to vanish intoshadows when you want and strike without loosing your stealth, not perma-stealth)
2. What do you LEAST like about the TR class?
The least ? hard to say...
mostly the TR's lack of a role. I'd like to have a place in PvE again, instead of waiting an entier hour to find a group for a DJ because players prefer a 11k mage rather than a 15k TR.
Also, I hate rogue's lack of survivability. We are too stealth-dependent when it came to this point, we need to be able to survive while standing in the light. Not as well as a warrior, but enought to worth the try. Could be through deviation, could be through intensive daze, a spammable dodge, but whatever it will be, it need to be, if you understand what I mean...
3. In what direction do you want to see this class go?
As a starting point, I want 3 clearly separated talents tree, one for long stealth (even maybe some kind of perma-stealth with a lack of damage), one for single-target-DPS, one for, let's say "dirty fight" (stuns, lifesteal, ect...)
Also, rework all those useless power, they hardly worth a power slot : LB is a good example : less damage than a DC's power that have an AoE and a only half as long cool-down.
1. What do you like about the TR class?
I like the idea of the rogue class. A melee DPS that trades defenses for damage. An underhanded weasel that uses the cheapest and most annoying fighting tactics. A phantom, a ghost that moves completely unseen and undetected. It's sinister, it's evil, it's sadistic, and it's absolutely brilliant. That's why I like the idea of the rogue.
2. What do you like least about the TR class?
Pretty much everything, but if I had to choose one, it's how dependent we are on stealth. We have next to no defenses, whether they be passive or active, making us need stealth to defend ourselves. We also have next to no mobility, passive or active, making us need stealth to attack. The way we are designed, stealth is everything to us, but in any multiplayer game, stealth is toxic and anti-fun. I don't like needing stealth to enable myself to do things. I don't like being attacked by something I can't see. Stealth. Is. Overpowered.
3. In what direction do you want to see this class go?
I want stealth to be less effective than it is now, and to compensate, make the TR less dependent on stealth. You can increase our health and damage, but that won't be enough. We need Encounters and Daily powers that let us deal damage without stealth. We need Encounters and Daily powers that let us defend ourselves without stealth. At-wills, Class features, and Feats, not so much.
We could also use a better dodge. Our dodge right now is horribly clunky and doesn't feel very rogue-y. For that matter, we could also use more mobility. More movespeed. More gapclosers. More escapes.
I love how tr slips in and out of shadows in and out of combat.
i love being able to attack target from stealth with at wills and remain in stealth.
i love my saboteur feats
2.*What do you LEAST like about the TR class?*- Opposite of #1, do you dislike the incredulously minute damage we do in PVE, or how clunky certain skills work, if you dislike it, it belongs here.
I dislike how long it takes for our attacks to actually execute once our encounters are pressed.
Dazing strike animation takes too long for the attack to be effective.
I would like to see the base attack speed of dazing strike increased to the base speed it has from stealth
3.*In what direction you want to see this class go?*- Ripped off from Akro's post, because everyone deserves an opportunity to have their answers to this question heard.
-I would like so see our attack speed increase 100% while we have combat advantage on a target. in pvp and pve
-I would like to have all encounters do 75% more damage while we have combat advantage. in pve
-I would like to see all at wills do 75% more damage while we have combat advantage. in pve
-I WOULD LOVE FOR OUR ATTACKS TO HIT UP TO 8 TARGETS IN AREA (DAZING STRIKE, WICKED REMINDER, BLITZ,
-I WOULD LOVE FOR DEFT STRIKE TO HAVE A COOLDOWN OF 5 seconds.
-I would love if we could have at least one extra dodge or two per stamina bar
-I would love if we could have a bait and switch dummy that attacks targets like an icewindale tr npc
-I would love if our smoke bomb would do poison damage to all in area and also daze people faster .
-I would love it if we could gain 10 more power point for paragon feats after level 60 by over leveling just like we can gain more encounter points.
stealth: always been fond of stealth classes through a variety of games
"rogue": always been fan of the sly, witty "rogue" archetype in D&D
light melee: charging head-on with invincible defense and invincible attack doesn't interest me much. Rather, the smaller, lighter classes being flexible in their use of tactics, using speed, technique, improvised attacks, using situational advantages such as the terrain, etc etc... to defeat stronger opponents is what I like about the "light melee" archetypes
2. Dislikes
The fact that the entirety of the TR class is centered around
ONE ability - stealth - and the rest of the traits remain hilariously inadequate for everything I wrote up above in the "Likes" section.As it is, TRs are centered around stealth for both damage and defense. Without stealth, you don't have damage, you don't have defense, you are totally vulnerable and straight-forward outmatched
In comparison, every combat-related attribute/ability/feature you can think of, the TR does it the worst.
The TR currently...
lacks damage: both burst and sustained, among the lowest damaging class besides the DC
lacks defense & survivability: despite leather armor, even weaker than the cloth-garbed wizards. Can't even begin to compare with how tough the HR is.
lacks utility: despite characterized as a craftym technical, light-melee fighter, it doesn't have any special features that help with combat
lacks CCs: considering light-melees portrayed in other games usually wield various CCs to exploit the weaknesses of the enemy, the TR is totally devoid of CCs in general
lacks mobility: the most acrobatic and nimble of the D&D classes, and yet in NW they are slow. No real gap-closers (or rather, survival needs make it impractical to use any gap-closer powers in the first place), no real movement speed buffs -- even movement speed boost is only available in stealth. Compare with the endless amounts of gap-closers the GWF wields
In other words, the TR is a half-baked class with crummy basic performance which every other class does much better. The only reason TRs were known as PvP-gods before, was because continuous refreshment of stealth was THAT much powerful. It really WAS OP, no matter how much TRs want to deny it.
Stealth -- continuously refreshing -- is so powerful, so strong a means of both offense and defense, that it just smothered and covered up all the flaws in the class. People didn't care about just how weak the TR really was, because as long as you've got permas and semi-permas, it'd cover up every weakness.
In the end, no amount of single nerfs to individual powers were really able to control the TRs. Remaining invisible forever, while continuously dishing out attacks -- in general, nobody can win against an adversary like this. In the long run, the TR will always win. It caused massive frustrating throughout the player base.
Hence, the total stealth dependancy is what actually led to the downfall of TRs. The only way the developers could think of to keep TRs under control, was to line up an endless series of nerfs, while at the same time boosting the stats and gears of all other classes higher.. so that the TR can't win even in the "long run". Bring down the relative damage to such low levels, that now people can drink potion/regen/lifesteal/survive long enough to run away to a spawned healing potion.. or simply outright kill the TR.
Some people have sought out moving out of the stealth dependancy and going BI-grade gear as an alternative. I am grateful for their experimentation, but truthfully speaking, regardless of whether it "works" or not, the results are just pathetic. In the end the BI-gear TR builds don't have to do with any 'technical' factor at all. Stealth is barely 7 seconds, most of the cases the shear amount of DoTs and auto-proc damages going around in PvP pretty much makes sure your stealth is never up unless you have Shadow Strike.
All the BI gear does, is simply rack up your healing/temp HP buffer to insane levels, so that it just allows you to keep chugging into a stupid contest of HP attrition. The TR still sucks in so many ways, and the only thing that keeps it alive is the insane amount of healing and temp-HP output that keeps bringing it back to life like a zombie, like a perpetual electro-shocker attached to one's heart.
There's nothing 'technical' about the BI-grade TRs. They're simply using it because they have no other option -- besides using inferior gear for perma/semi-perma that can't kill anyone. The BI-grade gear doesn't even increase damage all that much -- most of the damage is done by broken mechanics Glyphs anyway.
Mind you, I am not demeaning the efforts of the TRs who sought this path. All I'm saying is that the results of the effort, the current state of the "BiS TR", is just unimagineably sucky and facepalm material. No doubt, it works. Some people even do it well. But at the very heart, it is still the same weak, pathetic TR as it is. It simply uses an "I can't die" mechanic to sustain itself.
What I'm saying, is imagine that the ideal TR is supposed to be like the top-notch modern boxer. Modern boxing has evolved in such a way that it now repects the "total fighter" as the only competition worthy material. The modern boxer is skilled in both in-fighting and out-fighting. The emphasis is heavy on speed and extreme change of pace to go "in-and-out", using both hard-punching powerful attacks, as well as lightning speed attacks. In order to achieve this the boxer must also be at the physical prime of an athlete -impressive cardios, muscle strength, reflexes, etc etc.. this, is the "modern boxer".
Now, the reality of the "modern TR", the latest development of what the TR is, is like going back to pre-modern boxing where lumbering towers of heavily built meatbags contested in a fight of trading blows toe-to-toe, punch-to-punch, until one side couldn't take it anymore and would be knocked out.
It can also be compared to the modern navy and the WW1~WW2 Navy. Modern naval forces have shifted towards lightweight, but state-of-the-art destroyer fleets. The advancements of technology have made it possible to bring down the size of ships into a compact form, where the perfect balance between speed, mobility, infilitration, and firepower can be achieved. This is what the modernized navy should be aiming at.
Instead, the latest developments of the TRs have gone back to battleships. Big, huge, bulky, trading shots, a fight of attrition until one side lands better damage while surviving incoming damage through a huge defensive bulk and armoring.
So, to sum it up, I seriously dislike the fact that our TR is thoroughly useless and doesn't match any of what you'd expect from a "rogue-ish" character. It can't do anything without stealth. In order to remain with stealth, you have to be in inferior gear. If you want to catch up with how other classes have moved on, then you throw away everything that is to be a rogue, and simply put up a huge HP buffer and turn into encounter spamming zombie with 50k HP.
3. The Future
Remedy everything mentioned above.
some increase in base damage, serious increase in survivability -- not through passive defensive stats, but through the addition of traits, skills, feats that you can use to actively escape enemy attack, like the nimble rogue you are. Dodge frames added in to 'movment' inducing powers, powers with additional effects that break you free from a variety of CCs, time-limited boost to your deflection chance and severity, "riposte" type of retaliation powers you can time to send back badly timed enemy attacks, quick-activating, potent CCs that can be used both for offense and defense, etc etc..
limitations or efficiency drops for continuous stealth refreshment
Stealth is a part of what the rogue is, but it shouldn't be everything. A TR should be everybit as much combat worthy whether it is in stealth or not. Stealth should be what adds the extra OOMPH! to the class, not the alpha and omega as it currently is.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1. Likes
Stealth- The power to disappear and outplay your enemy.
TR is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class overall =D with good animations.
TR is a very very fun class to play, and even when TR is as bad as it is now. I am still playing it.
2. Dislikes
Now is where many will disagree with me. In my opinion its a great feature but stealth should be a LUXURY rather then PERMA type of ability. Think about a character/ assassin that can turn invisible forever. It just doesn't make any sense. The goal of a Rogue/Assassin is to SINGLE target kill, not stealth for eternity and capture nodes. What kind of play style is that? Stealthing forever and just running around doing a bit of damage ruins the fun of PVP.(main reason why I dont even bother with pvp) Other then main reasons that people have listed. I will just leave off with "Survivibility is Bad and not enough Damage to compensate"
PVE
Many of us know already , the damage output in PVE is ridiculous. No reason to play TR if your looking to do damage. Even with single target damage, many other class can STILL deal more at the same target. The damage in PVE is so low that the real way to play TR in pve is to play utility which is the complete opposite of what the class has the potential to become.(yet many of us ignore this fact and keep trying to add damage to mobs) In reality, you will benefit the team more by playing as a utility TR. That statement may have been written strangely BUT, its the truth.
3. The Future
The main problem with TR is the lack of damage in PVE. I am geared at around 16k GS, yet my damage output can be easily beaten by any other class. Being completely reliant on stealth is not how the class should be played.
I'd say I like what is presented about the class on the surface. Ignoring the crunch it has damage from multiple ranges I have options for cc I can surprise people with my sudden appearance. In short game play at lvl 25...
2) what do I dislike...
The image presented above is an illusion. I dislike the reliance on stealth several powers are clunky but do disproportionately more.
For emphasis on my new sw alt I choose the at will I want to represent my playstyle. On my Try choosing DF vs Sly flurrish is the difference between 2nd or 4th on paingiver.
Essentially the game uses the clunkyness as a counter to DF high damage. The problem is it seems to be only in comparison to other tr powers.
3) what do I want...
I'd like to see what we have work effectively. I don't want to daze someone only to have them walk away. I want to see more combat advantage less stealth. I want the animations we have to work fluidly.
I want the see class anti cc moved away from paragon paths to day.. Bait n switch...
2) suddenlyslow and kweassa 100% accurate. I find it amazing how a high a high dexterity class can be outmanoeuvred by almost everybody. The lack of speed and the terrible cool downs that our powers have, make this class feel imo like a slow fat gladiator who tries desperately to hit other people. I got used to the lack of damage but what I really don't like is the fact we don't have any worth while cc's and our encounters have titanic long animations: shadow strike takes about 1.5 sec and bugges out a lot AND it doesn't work while moving very well. Aren't "trickeries" supposed to be fast?
Defences, what defences? if you are not in stealth or in ITC you are dead. I do believe that as a master of tricks the TR class should have more abilities that can keep him alive.
3) First of all I believe that the TR class must be versatile. Each tree should bring out a different style of play. I would love to see this class played in a lot of different ways: either as a stealth saboteur or as a cc trigger-happy scoundrel or as a menacing executioner.
Secondly from old-school DnD to nowadays this class is a STRIKER and i would definitely love to see it become that.
P.S. I want to apologize for my bad English, it is not my native language.
Looks like we're gonna find out... (I hope):
https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/519546428490645504
You have options as TR to use full radiant enchantments and vorpal plus max critical and gear that maxes your power or to try to go perma stealth.
Even if you are perma stealth, there are many ways for people to break your stealth ability. PERMA is not all that special and it is by far not overpowered, so leave it alone.
1) what I like about the Tr is the options that are presented at face value, I have primarily played a Whisperknife Scoundrel through most of my game play chareer, and i like the over all playyle of this combination. Teleport in stab stab, oh danger, roll out throw knives. If i use impact shot & Vengence persuit i can attack from whatever range that i am ant and i am constantly pushing buttons. the game does currently allow room for creative game play, but often the reason I am doing It is to compensate for my lower damage.
Example, my Tr is 14.5k gs approx, i ran VT with a guildie who is also a TR at 17k gs, a SW who was our main DPS and Main healer, a HR archer who was Dps and a CW (who was played by a young player) it turned out the player of the SW was very experienced and this allowed myself and my Guildie to change our powers aroud to addept to situations for much of the trash i was running Smoke Bomkb, Blitz, shadow strike, on Valindra i switched to Lashing blade and used Deft strike as a teleporter. There were periods the SW was doing large kiting pulls and i would use courage breaker to peel off one of the golems so it could be singled out to be killed.
In short I like Technical game play where i have the change to be creativ Howver that gets to my issue two...
2) As i said in my first post, i dislike the game's reliance on stealth. Currently i am MI/Executioner i dropped my Mixed profound/black Ice gear combination for full profound Why? because Not being in stealth reduced my damage, and If anything sees/hits me i have a real chance to just/die/ not get hitbadly try to heal and maybne die Just it crits me i die. I found going MI/Executioner permastealth massivly increase dmy survivability and the +25% crit severety when stealthed is such a massive boost.
In short, in order to get in groups in the current meta i shifted to agame style that I actually find boring in order to get into groups. That Valindra's tower run that i did, My Guldymate Tr had almost /twice/ the Gs required to get into VT and both he and i were considered a "well hopefully we can make it through"
3) What do i want? Really as i said in my previous post i want the stuff we do have to /work/ Id like the CC immunity moved out of Impossible to catch and into a general rogue power like Bait and Switch (oh look the CW has me choking in the air, Bait N Switch, hes now holding an illusionary dummy) Actually.. i think imagewise that looks awesome but im sure in application theres issues with it. Needless to say other Classes dont have their ANTI CC wraped into paragon powers.
I want to Do more Single target damage, Than either a SW or a CW (If im not on top of Painbringer im fine with that,as long as ACT tells me i did the most damage on the /boss/. In PVP when i get hit by a GWF's take down i have to madlty spam buttons in hopes to get away once it clears. If im remotely slow /I am dead/ In PVP when i hit somone with Dazing Strike or Smoke Bomb they.. walk away.
Anyhow at the end of the day, and this kind of sums things up. Why do i ahve to wear a PVP armor set in order to do well in PVE?
Anyhow, hopefully all of this supports what i had said in my first post and did not ome accross as "i want to WTF BBQPWN People and monsters" Alot of the issues TR face are actually not unique to NWO monsters have to hit hard enough to threaten the tank, and having AOe stuff around them that hits hard enouh to concern the tank seems to be the norm for MMO. Jugling the need for Rogue Dps with PVE vs PVP is a difficult thing. I dont think that the answer is necessarily "buff our powers" I'll give an example.
As i said earlier for alo of my game play I was WK scoundrel and i used Impact shot as my primary means of damage at range. I often see Tr insisting Impact shot needs to be un-nerfed but to be honest? As it exists now with that playstyle I was barely affected by the damage reduction to Impact shot. when I did PVe i would run Advantageous postion, Dagger threat Impact shot, Blitz, Shadow strike. Rotation was .. Stealth, Cloud of steel a bit then Impact shot from stealth (does not remove a charge) then IS IS IS. Blitz a group of mobs, SS to re-stealth, then possibly Is again. so thats 4 Impact shots in probly under 3 seconds (only because the animation on Shadow strike is slow) of those Impact shots only Two of them are affected by the damage reduction the last one is the only one that it is noticable.
So basically, what im saying is I really didnt think /that/ specific damage change afffected me. That said that above power combo would at beast leave me i Third place for damage. Despite the fact that this seems like the playstyle that Whisperknife was designed for.
so i guess at the end of the day, Why does playing the Class/Paragon path in the way the game seems to be intended it for leave me falling behind classes That until i played NWO i would have never expected to be even competing with.
Anyhow, im done now i hope this all helps.
It's nice to hear someone asking not for power buffs, but for better-working powers
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Seeing some very good feedback right now! Please do not hesitate to detail your answers further.
I use full radiants enchantments (rank 7+) and 2.5k ARP, 3.4k critical, and I can tell your right away my damage is still not satisfactory compared to other classes. Also I use regular vorpal in the process. If you've seen the potential of other classes ull know that the damage output is simply <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.(again pve) (Unless your doing only regular dungeons) During regular dungeons everything is fine. But if you play epic CN you better as heck have a cw on your side or pray to god that you can beat CN in under 6 hours.
Also, you dont understand that I don't want PERMA stealth to completely dissapear. Its NOT overpower but its pretty much the ONLY play style you can use atm if you want to have a drop of chance in PVP. And basically my entire post was asking for a different EFFECTIVE playstyle. The main problem right now is that stealthbased//perma is pretty much the only style you can use if your smart enough.
This is the only relevant one to me, I am a 17k TR and THE ONLY change I need to see for the TR is something were we can single out an enemy e.g. A boss and when we mark them we dodge everything they throw at us and the target cannot stun/prone/daze/knock us back at all. To me this is what a rogue should be about, Assassinating a SINGLE target just constantly being able to focus one target. Currently the GWF can achieve this with unstoppable and I would love it if the TRs could be more effective than this but just for a single target. The reason I want this is because there are many bosses out there with these small AoEs around them that just make these bosses extremely difficult for TRs and make ranged dps much more viable in these fights. To me in PvP this would make the TR the champion of 1v1 situations but against 2 enemies the TR would be far more ineffective.
Overall design. Dual wield. The looks. The idea of stealthy and deceptive melee ‘executioner’ class.
2. What do you LEAST like about the TR class?
PVE only:
Although our single target damage is not that tragic as many think it’s still not enough. As an ‘executioner’ class we should be unparalleled kings of melee single target damage and be able to one shoot elite mobs.
Smoke bomb is not enough to deal with legions of adds. Even if we concentrate on single target damage we should have means of controlling/deceiving larger groups of mobs more easily.
I hate the broken animations, and the new/broken ‘limping’ stop. Also the power animations are just too slow. We should have ultimate speed and dynamics.
I really can’t understand how a class superior in dexterity feels like an old grandpa compared to e.g HR. We should outmaneuver every single other class!!!
I hate that stealth is not always working against mobs/bosses as they can see through it (I’m not a perma, so I utilize stealth to maximize damage and lose unwanted agro/gain combat advantage).
3. In what direction do you want to see this class go?
PVE only:
I’d like to see the TR as a PvE first choice in groups for elite mobs and bosses dps. A specialist of sorts. Even in add heavy situations they should be able to add more utility to the group mechanics (beside one feat increasing crit and smoke bomb).
Along with ultimate single target damage I’d like to be able to utilize stealth more and be able to control it more) – like DC’s divinity mechanic. I have always objected to the very idea of perma stealth as I believe it should be a deception tool to confuse opponents. Another idea would be a mechanic that automatically starts stealth for 1s or 2s after any encounter use – to add confusion to the battlefield and thus making a TR an unpredictable damage source (although I’m sure this would create issues in PvP, alas!)
As we should have major advantage over other classes in speed we should be able to scout ahead of the group and use our tricks to setup the arena for a battle.
Sorry for being long-winded, tod. I'll summarize in bullet points:
1. Likes
tradtional D&D concept of the class
general 'style' of combat as promised by its class distinction
expectancy of 'quick', 'nimble', 'tricky', 'versatile', 'technical', 'light-melee' type combat due to class name
2. Dislikes
reality of the class; thoroughly incapable in every way, remedied only through long, continuous abuse of stealth
lack of damage, severe lack of survivability, lack of utilities that help with offense, lack of utilities that help with defense,severe lack of CCs, severe lack of mobility
overly dependant on stealth. stealth traditionally overpowered when continuously refreshed
3. Future
slight increase in base damage
significant increase in base survivability, not through passive defense/stats, but through active use of powers that add variety of defensive/retaliatory features: more potent slows and stuns, addition of immobs, faster activating CCs, timed retaliatory powers that can reflect/parry attack, powers that add special deflect chance, more frequently usable gap-closers, faster activating attacks, 'movement inducing' powers with special dodge frames, special powers that break you from CCs, etc etc etc..
the 'objective' of the class for the near-future, should be buffing up its combat prowess in every way so it can at least 'match' or 'stalemate' any other class in open combat for a short time, even without stealth... so no TR ever faces the
oh look. TR. He's got no stealth.. attack a few times.. endless DoTs and procs, he never going into stealth again... CC. Attack. Oh look, he wants to fight back... CC again... run.. run.. he can't catch me. CC.. attack.. attack.. CC... slap face... kick butt... he dead, I'm 100% HP... humiliation ever again, and be forced into making another boring perma or semiperma.If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Thank you, though to be honest part of it is from the realization that it is not as simple as make X stronger. Heres an example Alot of people i have read posts have made the statement that Lashing blade does crappy damage. The fact is (in my view at least) theres nothing wrong with LB's damage. the problem is its recharge time. At the moment my Character coul in theory in PVp nearly 1 hit kill some players if she got lucky. If they raise the damage the chance of this increases and then the debate changes to something more vitriolic which is not helpful.
Suffice it to say some parts of it is a numbers game and i am not a numbers player, i can have a feel for things though which is what i tried to express in my post.
+1 here demonmonger
1. What do you like about the TR class? - Whether it be the part where you get to contest nodes by yourself in PVP, or how your gear looks menacing, list 'em all here.
In spite of everything, TRs are still fun to play.
2. What do you LEAST like about the TR class? - Opposite of #1, do you dislike the incredulously minute damage we do in PVE, or how clunky certain skills work, if you dislike it, it belongs here.
Cumbersome animations. The "sudden stop" is awful, everyone hates it, it can't possibly be WAI, and I really hope it's fixed when we preview our changes.
Disheartening Strike also suffers from a clunky windup animation. Tossing the dagger in the air before throwing it looks really cool and all, but I usually need to hit the thing *now*, not next week... need to get in my chance to interrupt the target, or deal those last few HPs of damage to the black dragon guy before he can complete his transformation, etc. I get that it can't be the fastest attack because it can deal such heavy damage, but in the name of balance can we put the delay *after* the initial strike somehow?
Lack of balance on power cooldowns is problematic. The long cooldown on Lashing Blade was quite reasonable with the old damage it dealt; a slight reduction of cooldown would seem reasonable with the nerfed damage. And/or... if Takedown can have a shorter cooldown if it misses, why not some of the TRs' abilities? It is so easy for our attacks to just whiff air because the target moved or somebody else moved the target, and it's especially infuriating when LB goes onto cooldown after dealing 0 damage, because somebody just had to use their big knockback right that second, or dodged and your target followed them. Some of these issues could also possibly be addressed by faster, more responsive cast times. Alternatively, changing some powers to require a target rather than being castable at air/ground would mean that even if you lose your targetting mid-cast, you don't blow your cooldown. I'm not sure if that makes the csating track so that powers are harder to dodge though, so that's subject to whether it would be unbalancing.
General issues with how some powers work. Shadow Strike goes on cooldown without refilling stealth if it's used on a target that dies right when the power goes off. Vengeance's Pursuit attempts to target self/friendlies, which does bugger all.
3. In what direction do you want to see this class go? - Ripped off from Akro's post, because everyone deserves an opportunity to have their answers to this question heard.
Relevance. Would like relevance.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I really like how we can choose our fight. Stealth up, move to an advantageous position and initiate. I really like how our class feels fast paced when we fight. I've played since open beta and loved how our class felt when we had more damage/options.
2. What do you like least?
PVE:
Hate that I have to have two different TRs. 1 for pvp and 1 for pve. When game first launched, excut path was suitable for both.
Lack of benefit for a party. We dont really offer anything different. We used to at least offer single target damage
PVP:
Don't like being forced to perma stealth. I would prefer to fight more directly than run around hidden in order to contribute.
Control. Our dazes need to be stuns. We are melee and have no synergy setting up attacks.
Damage. With everyone having 40k plus it really shows the flaws in our damage. Also either take piercing damage out of the game or give it to us as well. The one holding the daggers should be piercing
Bugs. ITC still bugging. Goes to cooldown, doesn't deflect. Path of blades doesn't proc weapon damage. shadow strike shows animation goes to cooldown, doesn't refill stealth
Abilitys. We need to have a primary stat that increases our arp pen. Similar to what constitution does for GWF. This might solve our damage problem as we could then stack power instead of stacking arp. could apply to pve
Gear stats: Each new tier should be an upgrade for the class or else they are getting behind others.
Outfits. Almost everything makes us look nutz. The armor has skirts, horns, tophat (really?), crazy clown, some sort of pirate. Rangers get some better skins for what I am thinking. Give us some armor that looks stealthy, dark , and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. You have great art in this game be creative.
Future:
I would like to see a TR that does great sustained damage on bosses. Some kind of self healing, with the new boons this is really hurting our builds. I would very very much like to have options with builds. we have 3 trees and 2 paragons but for high end TRs there is only one real path that is competitive.
Overall I really do like our class and how it feels. It has kept my attention for over a year but each new OP power other classes get makes it frustrating. I think there are alot of cool things you could add for us including exploring the TRICKSTER word more literally. Tons of good ideas from this forum already for such skills as smoke bomb.
2. What I dislike about TR? As I said earlier, I love perma stealth, but I don`t like that TRs are forced to take this path without having the choice for taking another route such as a DPS-er(well, he can, but he`s going to get out shined by the other classes) or even an utility class.
Curently TR needs to sacrifice damaging encounters for utility ones, like shadow strike, bait and switch, he does that because stealth is his only defense, even though he has some CCs like smoke bomb, dazzing strike, courage breaker. TR doesn`t have the burst or power to make the enemy feel bad for his mistakes... TR`s power usually only have 1 role, either it is damage, cc either it is utility. For example lashing blade, it only damages the foe, smoke bomb, only stunts the foe, shadow strike, refills stealth as an utility encounter, its damage doesn`t worth be mentioning.
3. What I wish TR would become? As a joke I would say that I do not care what he will become as long as he will be able to make the HR be afraid of him.
Now leaving the joke aside, I would like to see the perma stealth ability continue, but with the small adition of powers doing more and more damage as foe`s health decreases, so if the enemy can not kill the TR fast enough, he will be the one that pays with his life.
I would also like a new TR that is all about utility, either it be CC, debuffs or buffs, by making his foes weaker and his team mates stronger.
And as the icing on the cake, I would like to see the TR that makes the 4 CW 1 DC party wish they would had a TR for the boss fight so it would be over faster. The TR that has 5 seconds ( ITC ) to kill any enemy player in one rotation and if not, then die with the joy of almost removing the red color from enemy`s health bar.
This is my wishlist for the TR.
I would like to see more dps added to tr class.
Second I would like to be able to set traps.
As for stealth I enjoy playing the tr class this way. The calls is way under powered compared to all the other classes now. Bring it back to beta levels!
DOUBLE OR TRIPLE THE DAMAGE ON EVERYTHING WHEN A TR IS NOT STEALTHED AND LET THE ONES THAT WANT , TO PLAY PERMA FOR TACTICS ALONE
MAKE UNARMED COMBAT SECOND MODE FOR TR (YES I KNOW THAT THE TAB BUTTON IS STEALTH SO.... ADD ANOTHER BUTTON!!!)
but most of all.... heh
FIX THE BUGS THAT ARE IN THE CLASS RIGHT NOW, HOW ARE WE SUPPOSE TO KNOW WHAT WORKS FOR US... IF NOTHING WORKS AS IT SHOULD??
thank u
P.S.
Dislike - two of TR's natural strengths, deflect and crit, rendered semi-worthless in pvp by unmitigable damage and tenacity. also dislike how few options there are for encounters and dailies.
Future - would like to see a spectrum between survival/stealth and dps, with many viable options in between. would like to see additive CA bonus from CHA.