I bet you've never run an at least 30k HP DC.. that's why you dont know how useful HP stat is and can only theorycraft how better deflect is and have to reach softcap with it before pumping HP. Big Mistake
Oh, and as for the warlocks.. it's probably because warlocks lacks CC skills and therefore compensated in raw damages for offense with good lifesteal ability for their defense.
I dont want to turn this thread to a HP vs Deflect thread... but i think it's important enough that you need to be have a stat that contributes more towards your survivability (therefore better against SW too) :
Max HP :
1. Does not have Diminishing Return
2. I think our % bonus HP from CON stat affects Max HP gained from equipments, which then further increase the stat gained.
3. If you have 46k HP, that's like having double life than the 23k HP.
4. Reliable stat, it is active 100% of the time
5. Good synergy with % healing such as being revived, Soul Forged, Moontouched, Miracle Healer set, Anointed Holy Symbol, etc.
Deflect
1. Unreliable as it depends on chance
2. When proned, your deflect turns to 0%.. which is a major drawback to this stat
3. DEX only provide flat deflect % and does not increase further our deflect when we put some equipments containing it.
4. Our deflect severity is 50%, which is standard... TRs have more reason to put deflect, because they have 75% Deflect Severity. Plus, they have STEALTH and ITC, which reduce greatly the probability of them getting proned.
So, if you're using the PvP armor and weapon that reach 1k tenacity, it is best to put into your necklace and ring slot with the Shieldings from ToD module eLoL dungeon. But if you have the tenacity ring set.. you only need to have tenacity weapons to reach 1k and then equip miracle healer... Because the set bonus synergize really well with Max HP + Divine Fortune class feat + HW + D.HW. As long as you're not CCed/proned, you can pretty much spam heals and gain % HP at the same time.
Again, I am not complaining about dying often. I simply wished to know why warlocks do so much damage compared to other classes.
Your question has already been answered a couple of times, but I'll re-iterate and clarify.
The warlocks DON'T do "so much damage" compared to other classes. With equal gear, they'll do just about the same as HRs and CWs. I've played over 400 PvP matches this module alone on my DC. This is something I know about.
The reason why you're dying to SWs crazy fast is probably because you've encountered (as previously mentioned) SWs using red glyphs combined with their high DoT damage + their lazer. DCs with high HP will die fast enough; you will die in seconds. Even without glyphs, most SWs know basic PvP encounters to use (for example their prone that throws you in the air can do quite a bit of damage even without glyphs to poorly built players like you), whereas most pug HRs will stand off point, spamming at-wills, forgetting they have a tab ability, while low level CWs might also not have a great idea of what PvP skills to use.
If you ever leave your 8-14k gs PvP bracket and run into HRs and CWs who know what they're doing, you will die just as fast to them.
By the way, you reach the soft caps REALLY easily for stats like crit (around 1.5k), recovery (around 2.5k), regen (1.5k), and so on. You'll have reached the soft caps just by putting on level 60 gear and having artefacts. It's not hard to stack HP, and it's not expensive.
Be aware of your constraints: I'm a grad student. I don't have time to farm or money to waste. Sure, HP is great once you've already hit the soft caps for all the more valuable stats, but I'm not talking about being the best DC in the game; I'm talking about casual PvP games maybe a couple of times a week to unwind from the stress of exams and wearing what can be bought from the Glory and AD those generate. Of course, this information is irrelevant to the OP because (for the millionth time):
Again, I am not complaining about dying often. I simply wished to know why warlocks do so much damage compared to other classes.
I'll show you why HP is FAR superior to Defense/Deflect.
1) Armor pen, debuff and unmitagable damage (glyphs, HR's piercing blade etc) negate defense.
2) 1% defense > 1% deflect at 50% deflect severity + deflect has low soft cap, so deflect is bad
3) Let's pretend that armor pen, debuff and unmitagable damage don't exist in this game, and let's pretend defense has no diminishing return, HP is still better and here is why:
Let's consider 2 builds, one stacks HP and the other stacks defense, both have same GS:
A) 30,000HP, 30% DR 20,000HP, 55% DR
(*400HP = 100 defense, and 100 defense=1%DR assuming it has no diminishing return)
Now plot the equations below on a graph:
HP left (y-axis) vs Damage Received (x-axis)
y=30,000*0.7x
y=20,000*0.45x
As you could see, if they both receive 30k damage, the one with 30k HP would still have more HP left, even with much lower defense.
I'll show you why HP is FAR superior to Defense/Deflect.
1) Armor pen, debuff and unmitagable damage (glyphs, HR's piercing blade etc) negate defense.
2) 1% defense > 1% deflect at 50% deflect severity + deflect has low soft cap, so deflect is bad
3) Let's pretend that armor pen, debuff and unmitagable damage don't exist in this game, and let's pretend defense has no diminishing return, HP is still better and here is why:
Let's consider 2 builds, one stacks HP and the other stacks defense, both have same GS:
A) 30,000HP, 30% DR 20,000HP, 55% DR
(*400HP = 100 defense, and 100 defense=1%DR assuming it has no diminishing return)
Now plot the equations below on a graph:
HP left (y-axis) vs Damage Received (x-axis)
y=30,000*0.7x
y=20,000*0.45x
As you could see, if they both receive 30k damage, the one with 30k HP would still have more HP left, even with much lower defense.
Did I mention I'm in a mathematics Ph. D. program?
First of all, you cannot directly compare HP with 30% DR to HP with 55% DR, since the latter is certainly more valuable. You must standardize these before making a comparison. What your graph actually shows is that the character with 20k HP can take more total damage before dying than the character with 30k HP (these are the x-intercepts).
Secondly, your assumptions are too broad. You are completely ignoring both heals and diminishing returns, which cancel each other to some extent, so you are not providing a "conservative" estimate. Since HP with higher damage reduction is more valuable than HP with lower damage reduction, heals are essentially multiplied by the difference in damage reduction. This makes damage reduction incredibly valuable to a healing class running with all healing powers, no?
Try again.
Edit: Also, keep in mind that damage is subtracted from health, not multiplied by it.
This makes damage reduction incredibly valuable to a healing class running with all healing powers, no?
Try again.
No one is arguing you need DR. But (AGAIN... this is getting repetitive), half-decent players will stack appropriate armor pen (not hard to do) AND there is a ton of deadly unmitigated damage in the game at the moment (most notably piercing blade and red glyphs).
Your DR will do just about nothing for you if you only have 23k HP. You can stack 50% DR and my DC with red glyphs will easily kill you. Stack 30-40k HP and it will be MUCH harder, because regen (and miracle healer set bonus if you're using it) will scale, and you will actually have more time to cast heals.
Or you know, keep being hostile towards all the input people are giving. No one is forcing you to build for PvP, so if you don't want to, that's fine. But you clearly PvP casually and don't know much about PvP, so your attitude is just awful.
For the sake of your fictitious studies, I hope that at some point you learn how to get help without alienating everyone.
Seriously. I don't know why we're trying. He can argue against everyone and keep being a horrible burden in PvP matches where players have half a brain, if that's what he enjoys, but then he should really not seek advice on this forum.
Goodness, I can't wait until some issue comes up where I can mention I'm a Ph.D student in criminology!
Seriously. I don't know why we're trying. He can argue against everyone and keep being a horrible burden in PvP matches where players have half a brain, if that's what he enjoys, but then he should really not seek advice on this forum.
Goodness, I can't wait until some issue comes up where I can mention I'm a Ph.D student in criminology!
I don't know why you're trying either because it's not the question I asked.
And to be clear, I am not asking it again, so please do not tell me it has already been answered.
You appeals to authority are absolutely meaningless. Simply saying it's true is not a valid argument. If you want to convince me of anything (and I'm still not sure why you're trying to), you need logos, logos, logos. Show me a rational argument logically derived from assumptions about which we can agree, and I will yield. I do not claim to know everything about the game, and I certainly do not claim to use the most accurate model to represent it (certainly, simply asking this question shows that). Simply demonstrate a more accurate model. Until you do, all you have is your feelings and intuition, and that is not convincing.
I saw DCs with PvE Miracle healer set and 35-40K HP. And more. DCs in PvP gear should be around 50K HP, and I am not exaggerating at all.
My fully geared DC with miracle healer set has 44k HP in PvP, without any food or elixir buffs. (And 3k defence, 1.3k regen, and -servers are down, so around- 37% DR).
I don't know why you're trying either because it's not the question I asked.
Except that one of your questions was "So, what am I doing wrong?". And people answered, and the consensus is your HP is awful. The reason most people jumped on the issue of your HP and not SWs is because the problem is NOT actually SWs themselves, since CWs and HRs have the same potential for burst (HRs even worse). The real problem is your HP.
The fact that you've had more bad experiences with SWs than CWs and HRs is not a DC's typical experience.
Of course, having a model would be ideal, and I'm sure bvira will be able to help you more in that respect. If statements like "half-decent players will stack appropriate armor pen (not hard to do) AND there is a ton of deadly unmitigated damage in the game at the moment (most notably piercing blade and red glyphs)" do not provide a "rational argument" about the limits of DR that do not apply to HP, you're just being blind. Regardless of the legitimacy of chihuab's graph, he also brought up similar points about defense and deflect (e.g., deflect drops to 0 when proned, and DCs have no good CC break abilities).
So basically:
1. People have not only answered your question, but addressed the REAL issue
2. People have explained the advantages of HP and disadvantages of other measures
If you demand to be convinced strictly with numbers and graphs, that's probably a lot more effort than anyone here cares to commit to convince someone who is extremely inexperienced about PvP and hostile.
My fully geared DC with miracle healer set has 44k HP in PvP, without any food or elixir buffs. (And 3k defence, 1.3k regen, and -servers are down, so around- 37% DR).
Of course, but you are full BiS and not many have access to your gear options.
However, pretty much everybody that played the game for 1-2 months should have access to the HP boons and rank 5-7 enchants.
How much HP you estimate your build would lose with rank 6 Radiants vs rank 10 ones? Because this is how much the OP should be able to get if s/he was doing the dailies for a few weeks.
Except that one of your questions was "So, what am I doing wrong?". And people answered, and the consensus is your HP is awful. The reason most people jumped on the issue of your HP and not SWs is because the problem is NOT actually SWs themselves, since CWs and HRs have the same potential for burst (HRs even worse). The real problem is your HP.
The fact that you've had more bad experiences with SWs than CWs and HRs is not a DC's typical experience.
Of course, having a model would be ideal, and I'm sure bvira will be able to help you more in that respect. If statements like "half-decent players will stack appropriate armor pen (not hard to do) AND there is a ton of deadly unmitigated damage in the game at the moment (most notably piercing blade and red glyphs)" does not provide a "rational argument" about the limits of DR, you're just being blind. Regardless of the legitimacy of chihuab's graph, he also brought up similar points about defense and deflect (e.g., deflect drops to 0 when proned, and DCs have no good CC break abilities).
So basically:
1. People have not only answered your question, but addressed the REAL issue
2. People have explained the advantages of HP and disadvantages of other measures
If you demand to be convinced strictly with numbers and graphs, that's probably a lot more effort than anyone here cares to commit to convince someone who is extremely inexperienced about PvP and hostile.
Test builds out yourself.
You all are the ones being hostile. Disagreement is not hostility, and, on top of that, you're all just plain wrong.
You even contradict yourselves. First, you say that HP is the best stat, and then you claim that other stats are needed too. Well, if other stats are needed, then HP is only the best stat after a point, which is exactly what I claimed. My gear score is low enough that I have not raised my other stats sufficiently high to make HP gains in PvP the most valuable.
Plus, when you tell me that I don't observe what I observe, I can be certain you are wrong.
I do not demand to be convinced of anything. Stop evangelizing; you're wrong. It's as embarrassing as a Christian trying to convince you there's a god.
Of course, but you are full BiS and not many have access to your gear options.
However, pretty much everybody that played the game for 1-2 months should have access to the HP boons and rank 5-7 enchants.
How much HP you estimate your build would lose with rank 6 Radiants vs rank 10 ones? Because this is how much the OP should be able to get if s/he was doing the dailies for a few weeks.
Indeed, I am fully geared. Like you said, it's still possible to have a respectable amount of HP with Miracle Healer set.
My rings, belt, armor, and the shirt (or pants?) have defense slots; a rank 6 is half the HP of a rank 10; so 5x600 (=3000) instead of 5x1,200.
So 44k - 3k = 41k HP. It would probably be around 40k with HP rings that aren't vital ones, since those are no longer dropping.
I thiiiiink the math is right there? In short, it's reaaaaally easy to get more thank 23k HP, even without black ice or profound armour.
You even contradict yourselves. First, you say that HP is the best stat, and then you claim that other stats are needed too. Well, if other stats are needed, then HP is only the best stat after a point, which is exactly what I claimed.
Gosh. The point is that HP is the most important stat to focus on in PvP, because it's so easy to reach the soft cap of other stats just by WEARING gear and having artifacts. If "after a point" means after you equip basic level 60 purple gear, then true, but that's pretty meaningless to the discussion. We all assume you have the gear to reach the soft cap for most of these stats, which seems to be the case given your stats. The issue isn't SWs, or your other stats, it's your HP.
Edit: with your build, I GUARANTEE you that even my DC can kill you, even if I drop my enchantments to your level. If you want to 1v1 to see just how vulnerable you are to even the least deadly class with that little amount of HP, message me in-game @velynna. Please, please do.
I can also fight you with my CW, if you're in the mood to be killed in one rotation.
Indeed, I am fully geared. Like you said, it's still possible to have a respectable amount of HP with Miracle Healer set.
My rings, belt, armor, and the shirt (or pants?) have defense slots; a rank 6 is half the HP of a rank 10; so 5x600 (=3000) instead of 5x1,200.
So 44k - 3k = 41k HP. It would probably be around 40k with HP rings that aren't vital ones, since those are no longer dropping.
I thiiiiink the math is right there? In short, it's reaaaaally easy to get more thank 23k HP, even without black ice or profound armour.
I think I forgot about artifacts including Con belt. You probably need to account for something like blue artifact or just new epics. But even so, a 32-35K Hp in the worst case should be attainable.
So there you go OP. That's should be your target for now. If and when the glyphs are fixed (fingers crossed), you gonna have a much easier time against DPS classes in your leaderboard zone, if you spec&gear up correctly for PvP.
Hey, everyone, just leave this person alone. Everyone said what they know and he'll keep dying without taking any advice, and it's not your fault.
You're wrong about that too.
If I stand in front of a warlock, sure, I'll die, but many matches don't have an enemy warlock, and, even when there are warlocks, I simply avoid them, break LoS, run in circles around pillars, etc., all while throwing out heals to other players, of course.
Keep making assumptions, though; it makes you look brilliant.
If I stand in front of a warlock, sure, I'll die, but many matches don't have an enemy warlock, and, even when there are warlocks, I simply avoid them, break LoS, run in circles around pillars, etc., all while throwing out heals to other players, of course.
Keep making assumptions, though; it makes you look brilliant.
... lol no one is trying to look brilliant, you're the one that came here complaining about warlocks. If people who have done lots of testing and pvp share their experience about taking a warlock in front of them and surviving because of their high HP isn't enough to convince you, I doubt anything I say will do. That's why I don't waste my time arguing here, I'd just have a bad time and also that's why I recommend others to stop answering.
... lol no one is trying to look brilliant, you're the one that came here complaining about warlocks. If people who have done lots of testing and pvp share their experience about taking a warlock in front of them and surviving because of their high HP isn't enough to convince you, I doubt anything I say will do. That's why I don't waste my time arguing here, I'd just have a bad time and also that's why I recommend others to stop answering.
False. False. False.
1 - Everyone in this thread is trying to prove his or her point correct. Everyone is trying to look "brilliant."
2 - I did not come here complaining about warlocks; I came here asking about warlock combat mechanics.
3 - You absolutely are wasting your time arguing here, even if you aren't trying to argue about HP. At the very least, you're arguing that you're not arguing here, which is a clear contradiction.
-post deleted... not even going to bother... I'm sure this dude will learn the hard way his build is absolute trash in PvP in general, not just vs SWs-
But seriously. No one came here trying to look "brilliant." We came here to give you advice and were met with the worst attitude, which multiple people have pointed out (starting with your sarcastic and unproductive comment about a million HP, followed by calling everyone "useless," and so on). But I'm sure they're all wrong about your attitude like they're all wrong about HP.
-post deleted... not even going to bother... I'm sure this dude will learn the hard way his build is absolute trash in PvP in general, not just vs SWs-
But seriously. No one came here trying to look "brilliant." We came here to give you advice and were met with the worst attitude, which multiple people have pointed out (starting with your sarcastic and unproductive comment about a million HP, followed by calling everyone "useless," and so on). But I guess they're all wrong about your attitude like they're all wrong about HP.
You all gave unsolicited advice regarding something I didn't ask based on the assumption that what I know to be true is wrong. So helpful.
As a face melting warlock myself I can tell you... there's really nothing to tell aside from everything that's been said already. Greater Red Glyphs can make some warlock builds very powerful (notably ones using very fast hitting Dreadtheft - that blue/violet laser thingy) - but that's been said before and a half-competent Ranger will be just as deadly because of the added benefit of piercing blades (and combat capstone). Also, with your HP pool glyphs really aren't needed to melt you down in one rotation.
Why is HP more important than DR/deflect?
Because ANY competent player in PvP will stack AP - usually as much as they can. Some can go to as much as 30% or more DR ignored, usually less, but don't realistically expect less than 20-24%, even from not-so-highly geared players (it's really easy to stack). There goes half your (buffed!) DR down the drain - it's as good as if it never existed. Deflect? It just so happens that the only useful CC ability the warlock gets is a prone. That means that once they land a harrowsotrm (the green swirly swirl that makes you land on your @ss a second later) and then surge it (@ss landing), your deflect is completely useless too. Another stat down the drain. There are only two things that could've protected you in this scenario: first is a high enough HP pool... but you've neglected it (because yes, 23k in PvP is abyssmal). Second is dodging Harrowstorm or its surge, but that will only get you so far.
Long story short: what's killing you is a combination of glyphs and your build - it's built around things that any PvP warlock (but, really, not only warlock) disables almost completely. But that's really not a warlock's fault - it's your build/stats that are wrong, plain and simple. Your calculations are all fine and dandy from a mathematical perspective, but your knowledge about the game is not. The logical mistake you're making is that you make your calculations in a blank slate scenario, without taking other players into account. DR is never going to be as effective as it is in your imagination or on your paper sheets, when you have to apply it in an AP-dominated environment - and PvP is one. It won't work for the same reason a flame thrower is not a perfect fit for underwater combat. Realistically, you're left with 24% DR and a 23k HP pool against a striker class designed to deal damage fast. That's just not going to work. Not now, not ever.
You all gave unsolicited advice regarding something I didn't ask based on the assumption that what I know to be true is wrong. So helpful.
You are so blind. Your post is titled "How to Survive Scourge Warlock". THE ANSWER IS MORE HP. You asked what "So, what am I doing wrong?" THE ANSWER IS LOW HP.
"Is there an ability I have to absolutely dodge? Do they have a curse that turns heals into damage, so I'm killing myself?" ANSWER IS NO. THE PROBLEM IS YOUR LOW HP.
Like it's been said, SW itself is not the problem. I've played over 400 PvP matches on my DC this module. I have far more experience than you facing different classes.
Clearly you refuse to hear the answer because you refuse to understand what the real issue is (not the SW itself, but your HP). Like I've said, I could kill you on my DC.
You are so blind. Your post is titled "How to Survive Scourge Warlock". THE ANSWER IS MORE HP. You asked what "So, what am I doing wrong?" THE ANSWER IS LOW HP.
"Is there an ability I have to absolutely dodge? Do they have a curse that turns heals into damage, so I'm killing myself?" ANSWER IS NO. THE PROBLEM IS YOUR LOW HP.
Like it's been said, SW itself is not the problem. I've played over 400 PvP matches on my DC this module. I have far more experience than you facing different classes.
Clearly you refuse to hear the answer because you refuse to understand what the real issue is (not the SW itself, but your HP). Like I've said, I could kill you on my DC.
You are telling me that I should be instantly killed by every class, but this is not the case. I have played in hundreds of matches, and I do NOT have problems with any other class whatsoever. Don't expect me to listen to you if you won't listen to me.
Clearly your Ph.D. is not making you smarter (take it from another Ph.D.).
Clearly your current spec is not making you survive warlocks. Try getting more HP - it will make you last longer.
You are telling me that I should be instantly killed by every class, but this is not the case. I have played in hundreds of matches, and I do NOT have problems with any other class whatsoever. Don't expect me to listen to you if you won't listen to me.
Clearly you HAVE NOT met competent CWs HRs, etc... if you do, you'll die just as fast. Yes, they are out there... probably the ELO system the reason you havent met them...
This module? Doubt it (especially if you're talking about doing "PvP games maybe a couple of times a week"). Otherwise, you would know better; SWs are no more dangerous than equally geared CWs and HRs. Maybe things are different in the 8-13kgs bracket, where bad CWs and HRs are even worse than bad SWs.
Regardless, the answer is still: you need more HP.
Did I mention I'm in a mathematics Ph. D. program?
First of all, you cannot directly compare HP with 30% DR to HP with 55% DR, since the latter is certainly more valuable. You must standardize these before making a comparison. What your graph actually shows is that the character with 20k HP can take more total damage before dying than the character with 30k HP (these are the x-intercepts).
Secondly, your assumptions are too broad. You are completely ignoring both heals and diminishing returns, which cancel each other to some extent, so you are not providing a "conservative" estimate. Since HP with higher damage reduction is more valuable than HP with lower damage reduction, heals are essentially multiplied by the difference in damage reduction. This makes damage reduction incredibly valuable to a healing class running with all healing powers, no?
Try again.
Edit: Also, keep in mind that damage is subtracted from health, not multiplied by it.
"Edit: Also, keep in mind that damage is subtracted from health, not multiplied by it. " --- sorry typo, the plot is correct tho.
1) Why can't I compare the two? They both have exact same GS. Both originally have base 20k HP & 30% DR, one is given 2500 GS worth of HP (10k HP) and the other is given 2500 Defense (25% DR).
2) Yes my graph shows that the one with 20k HP can take tiny bit more damage, I was well aware of that, but didn't you see my unrealistic assumption?
"*400HP = 100 defense, and 100 defense=1%DR assuming it has no diminishing return"
If I account for diminishing return, the DR you get would certainly be less than 50%, then the graph would clearly show the one who stacks ridiculous amount of defense would die faster, and would ALWAYS have lower HP when receiving the same amount of damage.
3) Not sure how having higher DR would help you heal better. You mean when you get hit less, you can heal back the damage you've taken more easily? True, but you forgot about armor pen, debuff and unmitagable damage...
If I'm using glyphs, my DC can do a minimum of ~30k unmitigable damage to you in 20 secs, that makes HP that much more valuable.
SWs who are fury spec'd could do insane amount of unmitigable damage, those who are using glyphs too would melt you in a few seconds no matter how much DR you have. Only high healing output + high HP could help you survive longer.
Anyway, it's middle school math, it doesn't take someone with a Ph.D to understand something so simple. If you wanna remain delusional then fine, don't listen to us (not like you care about what we said anyway), and don't even bother replying us.
You are telling me that I should be instantly killed by every class, but this is not the case. I have played in hundreds of matches, and I do NOT have problems with any other class whatsoever. Don't expect me to listen to you if you won't listen to me.
My DC can kill you in 30 seconds max, and 20 seconds max with my CW (don't even need daily). Wanna test it out?
Comments
Oh, and as for the warlocks.. it's probably because warlocks lacks CC skills and therefore compensated in raw damages for offense with good lifesteal ability for their defense.
I dont want to turn this thread to a HP vs Deflect thread... but i think it's important enough that you need to be have a stat that contributes more towards your survivability (therefore better against SW too) :
Max HP :
1. Does not have Diminishing Return
2. I think our % bonus HP from CON stat affects Max HP gained from equipments, which then further increase the stat gained.
3. If you have 46k HP, that's like having double life than the 23k HP.
4. Reliable stat, it is active 100% of the time
5. Good synergy with % healing such as being revived, Soul Forged, Moontouched, Miracle Healer set, Anointed Holy Symbol, etc.
Deflect
1. Unreliable as it depends on chance
2. When proned, your deflect turns to 0%.. which is a major drawback to this stat
3. DEX only provide flat deflect % and does not increase further our deflect when we put some equipments containing it.
4. Our deflect severity is 50%, which is standard... TRs have more reason to put deflect, because they have 75% Deflect Severity. Plus, they have STEALTH and ITC, which reduce greatly the probability of them getting proned.
So, if you're using the PvP armor and weapon that reach 1k tenacity, it is best to put into your necklace and ring slot with the Shieldings from ToD module eLoL dungeon. But if you have the tenacity ring set.. you only need to have tenacity weapons to reach 1k and then equip miracle healer... Because the set bonus synergize really well with Max HP + Divine Fortune class feat + HW + D.HW. As long as you're not CCed/proned, you can pretty much spam heals and gain % HP at the same time.
Your question has already been answered a couple of times, but I'll re-iterate and clarify.
The warlocks DON'T do "so much damage" compared to other classes. With equal gear, they'll do just about the same as HRs and CWs. I've played over 400 PvP matches this module alone on my DC. This is something I know about.
The reason why you're dying to SWs crazy fast is probably because you've encountered (as previously mentioned) SWs using red glyphs combined with their high DoT damage + their lazer. DCs with high HP will die fast enough; you will die in seconds. Even without glyphs, most SWs know basic PvP encounters to use (for example their prone that throws you in the air can do quite a bit of damage even without glyphs to poorly built players like you), whereas most pug HRs will stand off point, spamming at-wills, forgetting they have a tab ability, while low level CWs might also not have a great idea of what PvP skills to use.
If you ever leave your 8-14k gs PvP bracket and run into HRs and CWs who know what they're doing, you will die just as fast to them.
By the way, you reach the soft caps REALLY easily for stats like crit (around 1.5k), recovery (around 2.5k), regen (1.5k), and so on. You'll have reached the soft caps just by putting on level 60 gear and having artefacts. It's not hard to stack HP, and it's not expensive.
1) Armor pen, debuff and unmitagable damage (glyphs, HR's piercing blade etc) negate defense.
2) 1% defense > 1% deflect at 50% deflect severity + deflect has low soft cap, so deflect is bad
3) Let's pretend that armor pen, debuff and unmitagable damage don't exist in this game, and let's pretend defense has no diminishing return, HP is still better and here is why:
Let's consider 2 builds, one stacks HP and the other stacks defense, both have same GS:
A) 30,000HP, 30% DR
(*400HP = 100 defense, and 100 defense=1%DR assuming it has no diminishing return)
Now plot the equations below on a graph:
HP left (y-axis) vs Damage Received (x-axis)
y=30,000*0.7x
y=20,000*0.45x
As you could see, if they both receive 30k damage, the one with 30k HP would still have more HP left, even with much lower defense.
Did I mention I'm in a mathematics Ph. D. program?
First of all, you cannot directly compare HP with 30% DR to HP with 55% DR, since the latter is certainly more valuable. You must standardize these before making a comparison. What your graph actually shows is that the character with 20k HP can take more total damage before dying than the character with 30k HP (these are the x-intercepts).
Secondly, your assumptions are too broad. You are completely ignoring both heals and diminishing returns, which cancel each other to some extent, so you are not providing a "conservative" estimate. Since HP with higher damage reduction is more valuable than HP with lower damage reduction, heals are essentially multiplied by the difference in damage reduction. This makes damage reduction incredibly valuable to a healing class running with all healing powers, no?
Try again.
Edit: Also, keep in mind that damage is subtracted from health, not multiplied by it.
No one is arguing you need DR. But (AGAIN... this is getting repetitive), half-decent players will stack appropriate armor pen (not hard to do) AND there is a ton of deadly unmitigated damage in the game at the moment (most notably piercing blade and red glyphs).
Your DR will do just about nothing for you if you only have 23k HP. You can stack 50% DR and my DC with red glyphs will easily kill you. Stack 30-40k HP and it will be MUCH harder, because regen (and miracle healer set bonus if you're using it) will scale, and you will actually have more time to cast heals.
Or you know, keep being hostile towards all the input people are giving. No one is forcing you to build for PvP, so if you don't want to, that's fine. But you clearly PvP casually and don't know much about PvP, so your attitude is just awful.
Nor did you mention that you're a troll.
For the sake of your fictitious studies, I hope that at some point you learn how to get help without alienating everyone.
Seriously. I don't know why we're trying. He can argue against everyone and keep being a horrible burden in PvP matches where players have half a brain, if that's what he enjoys, but then he should really not seek advice on this forum.
Goodness, I can't wait until some issue comes up where I can mention I'm a Ph.D student in criminology!
Probably the best suggestion to your own build
I don't know why you're trying either because it's not the question I asked.
And to be clear, I am not asking it again, so please do not tell me it has already been answered.
You appeals to authority are absolutely meaningless. Simply saying it's true is not a valid argument. If you want to convince me of anything (and I'm still not sure why you're trying to), you need logos, logos, logos. Show me a rational argument logically derived from assumptions about which we can agree, and I will yield. I do not claim to know everything about the game, and I certainly do not claim to use the most accurate model to represent it (certainly, simply asking this question shows that). Simply demonstrate a more accurate model. Until you do, all you have is your feelings and intuition, and that is not convincing.
My fully geared DC with miracle healer set has 44k HP in PvP, without any food or elixir buffs. (And 3k defence, 1.3k regen, and -servers are down, so around- 37% DR).
Except that one of your questions was "So, what am I doing wrong?". And people answered, and the consensus is your HP is awful. The reason most people jumped on the issue of your HP and not SWs is because the problem is NOT actually SWs themselves, since CWs and HRs have the same potential for burst (HRs even worse). The real problem is your HP.
The fact that you've had more bad experiences with SWs than CWs and HRs is not a DC's typical experience.
Of course, having a model would be ideal, and I'm sure bvira will be able to help you more in that respect. If statements like "half-decent players will stack appropriate armor pen (not hard to do) AND there is a ton of deadly unmitigated damage in the game at the moment (most notably piercing blade and red glyphs)" do not provide a "rational argument" about the limits of DR that do not apply to HP, you're just being blind. Regardless of the legitimacy of chihuab's graph, he also brought up similar points about defense and deflect (e.g., deflect drops to 0 when proned, and DCs have no good CC break abilities).
So basically:
1. People have not only answered your question, but addressed the REAL issue
2. People have explained the advantages of HP and disadvantages of other measures
If you demand to be convinced strictly with numbers and graphs, that's probably a lot more effort than anyone here cares to commit to convince someone who is extremely inexperienced about PvP and hostile.
Test builds out yourself and run ACT.
Of course, but you are full BiS and not many have access to your gear options.
However, pretty much everybody that played the game for 1-2 months should have access to the HP boons and rank 5-7 enchants.
How much HP you estimate your build would lose with rank 6 Radiants vs rank 10 ones? Because this is how much the OP should be able to get if s/he was doing the dailies for a few weeks.
You all are the ones being hostile. Disagreement is not hostility, and, on top of that, you're all just plain wrong.
You even contradict yourselves. First, you say that HP is the best stat, and then you claim that other stats are needed too. Well, if other stats are needed, then HP is only the best stat after a point, which is exactly what I claimed. My gear score is low enough that I have not raised my other stats sufficiently high to make HP gains in PvP the most valuable.
Plus, when you tell me that I don't observe what I observe, I can be certain you are wrong.
I do not demand to be convinced of anything. Stop evangelizing; you're wrong. It's as embarrassing as a Christian trying to convince you there's a god.
Indeed, I am fully geared. Like you said, it's still possible to have a respectable amount of HP with Miracle Healer set.
My rings, belt, armor, and the shirt (or pants?) have defense slots; a rank 6 is half the HP of a rank 10; so 5x600 (=3000) instead of 5x1,200.
So 44k - 3k = 41k HP. It would probably be around 40k with HP rings that aren't vital ones, since those are no longer dropping.
I thiiiiink the math is right there? In short, it's reaaaaally easy to get more thank 23k HP, even without black ice or profound armour.
Gosh. The point is that HP is the most important stat to focus on in PvP, because it's so easy to reach the soft cap of other stats just by WEARING gear and having artifacts. If "after a point" means after you equip basic level 60 purple gear, then true, but that's pretty meaningless to the discussion. We all assume you have the gear to reach the soft cap for most of these stats, which seems to be the case given your stats. The issue isn't SWs, or your other stats, it's your HP.
Edit: with your build, I GUARANTEE you that even my DC can kill you, even if I drop my enchantments to your level. If you want to 1v1 to see just how vulnerable you are to even the least deadly class with that little amount of HP, message me in-game @velynna. Please, please do.
I can also fight you with my CW, if you're in the mood to be killed in one rotation.
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
I think I forgot about artifacts including Con belt. You probably need to account for something like blue artifact or just new epics. But even so, a 32-35K Hp in the worst case should be attainable.
So there you go OP. That's should be your target for now. If and when the glyphs are fixed (fingers crossed), you gonna have a much easier time against DPS classes in your leaderboard zone, if you spec&gear up correctly for PvP.
You're wrong about that too.
If I stand in front of a warlock, sure, I'll die, but many matches don't have an enemy warlock, and, even when there are warlocks, I simply avoid them, break LoS, run in circles around pillars, etc., all while throwing out heals to other players, of course.
Keep making assumptions, though; it makes you look brilliant.
... lol no one is trying to look brilliant, you're the one that came here complaining about warlocks. If people who have done lots of testing and pvp share their experience about taking a warlock in front of them and surviving because of their high HP isn't enough to convince you, I doubt anything I say will do. That's why I don't waste my time arguing here, I'd just have a bad time and also that's why I recommend others to stop answering.
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
False. False. False.
1 - Everyone in this thread is trying to prove his or her point correct. Everyone is trying to look "brilliant."
2 - I did not come here complaining about warlocks; I came here asking about warlock combat mechanics.
3 - You absolutely are wasting your time arguing here, even if you aren't trying to argue about HP. At the very least, you're arguing that you're not arguing here, which is a clear contradiction.
But seriously. No one came here trying to look "brilliant." We came here to give you advice and were met with the worst attitude, which multiple people have pointed out (starting with your sarcastic and unproductive comment about a million HP, followed by calling everyone "useless," and so on). But I'm sure they're all wrong about your attitude like they're all wrong about HP.
You all gave unsolicited advice regarding something I didn't ask based on the assumption that what I know to be true is wrong. So helpful.
Why is HP more important than DR/deflect?
Because ANY competent player in PvP will stack AP - usually as much as they can. Some can go to as much as 30% or more DR ignored, usually less, but don't realistically expect less than 20-24%, even from not-so-highly geared players (it's really easy to stack). There goes half your (buffed!) DR down the drain - it's as good as if it never existed. Deflect? It just so happens that the only useful CC ability the warlock gets is a prone. That means that once they land a harrowsotrm (the green swirly swirl that makes you land on your @ss a second later) and then surge it (@ss landing), your deflect is completely useless too. Another stat down the drain. There are only two things that could've protected you in this scenario: first is a high enough HP pool... but you've neglected it (because yes, 23k in PvP is abyssmal). Second is dodging Harrowstorm or its surge, but that will only get you so far.
Long story short: what's killing you is a combination of glyphs and your build - it's built around things that any PvP warlock (but, really, not only warlock) disables almost completely. But that's really not a warlock's fault - it's your build/stats that are wrong, plain and simple. Your calculations are all fine and dandy from a mathematical perspective, but your knowledge about the game is not. The logical mistake you're making is that you make your calculations in a blank slate scenario, without taking other players into account. DR is never going to be as effective as it is in your imagination or on your paper sheets, when you have to apply it in an AP-dominated environment - and PvP is one. It won't work for the same reason a flame thrower is not a perfect fit for underwater combat. Realistically, you're left with 24% DR and a 23k HP pool against a striker class designed to deal damage fast. That's just not going to work. Not now, not ever.
You are so blind. Your post is titled "How to Survive Scourge Warlock". THE ANSWER IS MORE HP. You asked what "So, what am I doing wrong?" THE ANSWER IS LOW HP.
"Is there an ability I have to absolutely dodge? Do they have a curse that turns heals into damage, so I'm killing myself?" ANSWER IS NO. THE PROBLEM IS YOUR LOW HP.
Like it's been said, SW itself is not the problem. I've played over 400 PvP matches on my DC this module. I have far more experience than you facing different classes.
Clearly you refuse to hear the answer because you refuse to understand what the real issue is (not the SW itself, but your HP). Like I've said, I could kill you on my DC.
You are telling me that I should be instantly killed by every class, but this is not the case. I have played in hundreds of matches, and I do NOT have problems with any other class whatsoever. Don't expect me to listen to you if you won't listen to me.
Clearly your current spec is not making you survive warlocks. Try getting more HP - it will make you last longer.
How are they killing you? Fast proccing glyphs.
Clearly you HAVE NOT met competent CWs HRs, etc... if you do, you'll die just as fast. Yes, they are out there... probably the ELO system the reason you havent met them...
This module? Doubt it (especially if you're talking about doing "PvP games maybe a couple of times a week"). Otherwise, you would know better; SWs are no more dangerous than equally geared CWs and HRs. Maybe things are different in the 8-13kgs bracket, where bad CWs and HRs are even worse than bad SWs.
Regardless, the answer is still: you need more HP.
"Edit: Also, keep in mind that damage is subtracted from health, not multiplied by it. " --- sorry typo, the plot is correct tho.
1) Why can't I compare the two? They both have exact same GS. Both originally have base 20k HP & 30% DR, one is given 2500 GS worth of HP (10k HP) and the other is given 2500 Defense (25% DR).
2) Yes my graph shows that the one with 20k HP can take tiny bit more damage, I was well aware of that, but didn't you see my unrealistic assumption?
"*400HP = 100 defense, and 100 defense=1%DR assuming it has no diminishing return"
If I account for diminishing return, the DR you get would certainly be less than 50%, then the graph would clearly show the one who stacks ridiculous amount of defense would die faster, and would ALWAYS have lower HP when receiving the same amount of damage.
3) Not sure how having higher DR would help you heal better. You mean when you get hit less, you can heal back the damage you've taken more easily? True, but you forgot about armor pen, debuff and unmitagable damage...
If I'm using glyphs, my DC can do a minimum of ~30k unmitigable damage to you in 20 secs, that makes HP that much more valuable.
SWs who are fury spec'd could do insane amount of unmitigable damage, those who are using glyphs too would melt you in a few seconds no matter how much DR you have. Only high healing output + high HP could help you survive longer.
Anyway, it's middle school math, it doesn't take someone with a Ph.D to understand something so simple. If you wanna remain delusional then fine, don't listen to us (not like you care about what we said anyway), and don't even bother replying us.
My DC can kill you in 30 seconds max, and 20 seconds max with my CW (don't even need daily). Wanna test it out?