If this thread has convinced me of one thing (actually it has convinced me of 2 - but stating one of them would require me to be impolite), it's that i'm still packing too much defensive silver. Given that werewolves are the last think I need to worry about, I think I'll look at rebuilding around miracle healer and more radiants. Shame those armor patches aren't removable. The black ice set looks solid but the grindy hell involved in completing that will probably be beyond me. There goes all my AD again ...
Are you stunning or proning the SW right away, then ensuring that you are NEVER in their line of sight until other players from your team come and kill the SW? Given the encounters you're running, it looks like no. SW's can put out massive damage much faster than you can heal yourself.
If you're taking the time to hit them with Power of the Sun first, then the SW has time to curse you and start shredding you. Don't bother trying to debuff them. Stun the SW and move. Even if you stand in your Astral Shield, the sheer damage output of an SW (particularly a PvP specced Fury SW who likely has well over 3K ArPen) is going to shred you.
I've never seen anyone dodge a curse, so right away you're fighting at a disadvantage. But yes, you must stay out of their Dreadtheft and dodge Killing Flames.
You need several things.
First, the situational awareness to not let them hit you first.
Second, you need to ensure that you're out of their line of sight as much as possible.
Third, you need to stun or prone them so that you can get away - they are much, much faster than you are going to be.
Fourth, you need to put Radiants (ranked as high as you can manage) in all of your defensive slots. They are going to have the ArPen to tear through just about any defense so you need to be able to outlast them.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
I am in full Grim Faithful PvP gear. I have over 36k HP. 40% damage resist through defense. 14% deflect. 1250 or so regen. Over 1k Tenacity (21%)... and I die to EVERY class in the game very quickly. No matter what spec I am or skills I use. I would love to run with the full black ice set... but I cannot get the gloves to drop. I am sure that would get me to around 40K HP and would give me some more defenses as apposed to power... but that would not make enough of a difference to matter.
I know Gim gear is not the best... but the stat difference from Grim to Profound is not worth the grinding time. No reason Grim Faithful gear, which is like 75% defense, shouldn't be enough to let you survive in PvP long enough to make a difference.
Clerics are by far the most useless class for PvP in the game at the moment. I feel like I let my team down just by playing a cleric. I hope these new changes make a difference... or Neverwinter is getting uninstalled. Too much time or money has to be invested into one character to make me want to role something different.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Too much time or money has to be invested into one character to make me want to role something different.
They introduced the race change token, perhaps its time for a class change token. It would allow you swap your items that are class specific for the equivalent items of the other class (t1 for t1, t2 for t2, artifact weapon etc.)
Clerics are by far the most useless class for PvP in the game at the moment. I feel like I let my team down just by playing a cleric. I hope these new changes make a difference... or Neverwinter is getting uninstalled. Too much time or money has to be invested into one character to make me want to role something different.
It is possible to play as a DPS in PvP currently and succeed.
It is possible to play as a DPS in PvP currently and succeed.
Yes... it's possible to do anything on a DC if you've got the right team to carry you or the other team is worse. I can post dozens of screenshots of matches where I have 0 deaths and the score is 1000-0 in PvP domination and claim that it's "possible to play as a tank DC in PvP currently and succeed," ignoring the fact that I still die crazy fast in most matches against equally geared players.
OBVIOUSLY, you CAN succeed as a DPS cleric, just like you can succeed as a renegade CW, a GWF who isn't iron vanguard, a SW without glyphs, and so on... but you're definitely going to fail more often than not all else being equal.
Yes... it's possible to do anything on a DC if you've got the right team to carry you or the other team is worse. I can post dozens of screenshots of matches where I have 0 deaths and the score is 1000-0 in PvP domination and claim that it's "possible to play as a tank DC in PvP currently and succeed," ignoring the fact that I still die crazy fast in most matches against equally geared players.
I guess the real question is what do people believe success is?
Is success completing the entire PvP campaign?
Is success being in the top 3 every domination match for score and/or kills?
Is success being in the top 100 pages of the Leader Board?
Your post infers that either a DC needs a strong team or a weaker enemy in order to succeed. Which is basicly saying nothing at all because the losing team is always worse when speaking to team composition. They might of had better Leader Board Ranking and gear, but as a team they lost.
The screen shot above is not that i had the lowest deaths but the Highest kills during the entire Gauntlgrym period. Half of those kills were solo 1:1. My post was in answer to someone that felt as a DC they weren't able to contribute anything to PvP.
To me there is nothing more satisfying than coming upon a massive clash and obviously/quickly turning the tide of the battle with well placed DPS shots on SWs/CWs sitting in the back unloading on my team... They always slide back and allow my team to defeat the closest opponents if it was "evenly matched prior to my arrival."
Before the Tyranny of Dragons mod it was more beneficial to use Astral Shield and Hallowed Ground, but with the current state of Glyphs and DPS outpacing healing in a massive way I choose to pick 2-3 targets and smack them hard in the back to force retreat. Usually Chains followed by Divine Daunting light for 1/2 their health. If a second target is nearby I give them my daily flame strike. More often than not the CWs/SWs cluster in the back and allow for up to Double Kills. This leaves punishing light for the Triple Kill (soulforged and dodges can be your best friend when obtaining triples.)
Enemy clusters are given a Divine Glow in Divine mode of course. In the mean time disperse Astral Seal to multiple targets to help your team.
If your gear is near top then the only people you should be dying to ridiculously quick are people utilizing glyphs which is far more frequent recently and will become obvious with the next mod when their effects are fixed ( This is not saying that you shouldn't die in a 1:1 matchup with a striker). In the mean time the only way to deter the use of a red dragon glyph against you is to use a blue dragon glyph. A Purified Black Ice Overload stone would also provide some extended life... So use astral seal on them immediately when they Proc the Blue dragon Glyph and you will receive additional healing.
SWs most often debuff and burn... the counterintuitive thing to do is charge them, but in 1:1 that is what you need to do. You can't outrun them and you can't sit still and try to outheal their DPS. Approaching them 15-30 degrees to their right or left (or slide criss cross) and constantly sliding out of the beam if you have Healing Step Feat. Fire off Astral Seal while approaching along with Forgemasters and Break Spirit (This is my domination PvP set up). Daunting light in divine mode hits quite often because most classes underestimate the DC. If you hit with all those encounters and actually have a crit chance of 35% or higher, then the SW is now looking to retreat.
In summary if you win, then you've got the right team.. if you lose you don't. 1. A DC can contribute greatly through debuff and understanding each PvP interaction as it occurs (Is your team focusing too much on the GF tank while allowing the strikers to pick them apart?). 2. Forcing the other teams strikers to deal with you ( a single target ) as opposed to your team and buying them time to win. (To me this is a win even if I die.) 3. Forcing strikers to retreat (Again to me this is a win) 4. DC is at a severe disadvantage vs. any class in PvP. Dodges need to be near perfect on a regular basis. (But this doesn't mean you can't contribute in a meaningful manner.
The point is that DC in this mod is the weakest PvP class. Going DPS as a DC makes you even more vulnerable in PvP against players with half a brain, hence, yes, if you're going DPS, your team needs to be better than the other team to make up for the fact that 1) they have the least effective DPS class in the game (all else being equal) and 2) one of the squishiest classes, made even more vulnerable by the fact that, as DPS, you have even worse self-sustain (with the lack of heals)...
So basically, what I was saying is that you can do anything on DC with the better team and claim to be successful, whether it's DPS, being AFK in spawn, or using only at-wills... It's not hard to get kills and avoid dying when your team is doing 3 times better than the other team in the score... (as in your screenshot)... But I still think that going DPS on a DC is generally a bad idea in PvP domination matches where people have gear and know how to PvP.
As an aside... the "fix" to the glyphs is already live... and since they're also affected by debuffs, they can actually hit you for higher than their noted base damage.
Your post infers that either a DC needs a strong team or a weaker enemy in order to succeed. Which is basicly saying nothing at all because the losing team is always worse when speaking to team composition.
If you've got two equally geared and skilled teams, except that one has a DC and the other doesn't, then the team with a DC is at a disadvantage. So yes, you need a stronger team in order to succeed. If your DC decides to go full DPS for some crazy reason, then you'll need an EVEN stronger team to succeed.
That's what I'm saying.
The only time I've found it worthwhile to go DPS on a DC is when facing worse players.
If your DC decides to go full DPS for some crazy reason, then you'll need an EVEN stronger team to succeed.
Well.. the PvP campaign is designed around killing and stuff.. so.. I wouldnt call it crazy, but rather a somewhat selfish but mandatory goal towards completing it.
I'm at awe for Captain Jack for being able to complete the PvP campaign, cool.. must've taken quite a lot of insults and stuff getting there.. I tried it several times going full DPS, and i just couldnt do it.. i strongly feel that I benefit the group more by doing support (back in mod 3 where i still PUG routinely, now i just dont bother PvPing at all).
The point is that DC in this mod is the weakest PvP class. Going DPS as a DC makes you even more vulnerable in PvP against players with half a brain, hence, yes, if you're going DPS, your team needs to be better than the other team to make up for the fact that 1) they have the least effective DPS class in the game (all else being equal) and 2) one of the squishiest classes, made even more vulnerable by the fact that, as DPS, you have even worse self-sustain (with the lack of heals)...
So basically, what I was saying is that you can do anything on DC with the better team and claim to be successful, whether it's DPS, being AFK in spawn, or using only at-wills... It's not hard to get kills and avoid dying when your team is doing 3 times better than the other team in the score... (as in your screenshot)... But I still think that going DPS on a DC is generally a bad idea in PvP domination matches where people have gear and know how to PvP.
So if we are to apply your theory that 2 evenly matched teams face off and one has a DC utilizing DPS then the team in question is at a disadvantage and should lose. Domination PvP performance with PUG groups is a far better measure of player effectiveness because you will not have other players assisting in the padding of stats. While the matching system is imperfect, it is the mechanic that drives PvP interaction. (This is also the method by which most people play) Given that the DPS DC team is at a disadvantage, then we should expect that team to lose more than 75% of the time. We all know the matching system doesn't provide equal terms on a regular basis but if the DC team is at a disadvantage, then they should lose at least 50% of the time. I believe this is more than fair for an analogy, but the problem with your theory is that DPS DCs can and do perform at a significantly higher win, kill/death ratio than what you suggest.
Captain Jack's win rate is 64%, his kill to death ratio is 1.34 kills for every death he suffered. Leaderboard ranking page 109 of 2733 pages. Kill ranking page 205. Total number of matches 97. The DC's listed ahead and immediately behind him in kill totals required 2-3 times as many matches to attain similar kill totals and DIED 2-3 times MORE (Doesn't seem effective to me). The assist totals as well would be similar if the same number of matches were to be played. Although in that case the DPS DC's kill total would demolish the competition.
The GWF ranked just ahead of Captain Jack has very similar numbers. Did that player under perform in PvP as well? I believe the real issue here is a preconceived notion of what a DC is supposed to be and how it is supposed to behave. I fully blame WoW for this polluted vision of what a cleric is supposed to be. Clerics in the age of pencil and paper D&D were more than just heal/debuff. They had spells like harm that could reduce any enemy to 1 hp with a single spell. Word of Faith to blind and stun enemies. Magical darkness in which only they could see. Role oriented classes reduce player creativity and cause stagnation. "Free your mind".
While the number of DCs near the top of the Leaderboard are few and far between, it is still possible to be in the TOP 4% of all PvP players as a DPS DC. I don't think most people would complain about even being in the top 25%. So you can start embracing your inner DPS DC instead of denying it... You know u want to smash stuff with your Divine Daunting Light.... Don't You?
There are also pure tank DC in the top of the leaderboard also, mostly premade DC in PvP guilds. But I agree with the above post, embracing your DPS is what mod 5 is about. AS a tank since mod 4 I have been a pug player in domination and I float around the top 100 pages with no power, crit, or arp. 85 wins since mod 4. But I am grinding out my corrupted BI set for the mod 5 and looking forward to melting faces.
So if we are to apply your theory that 2 evenly matched teams face off and one has a DC utilizing DPS then the team in question is at a disadvantage and should lose. Domination PvP performance with PUG groups is a far better measure of player effectiveness because you will not have other players assisting in the padding of stats. While the matching system is imperfect, it is the mechanic that drives PvP interaction. (This is also the method by which most people play) Given that the DPS DC team is at a disadvantage, then we should expect that team to lose more than 75% of the time. We all know the matching system doesn't provide equal terms on a regular basis but if the DC team is at a disadvantage, then they should lose at least 50% of the time. I believe this is more than fair for an analogy, but the problem with your theory is that DPS DCs can and do perform at a significantly higher win, kill/death ratio than what you suggest.
Captain Jack's win rate is 64%, his kill to death ratio is 1.34 kills for every death he suffered. Leaderboard ranking page 109 of 2733 pages. Kill ranking page 205. Total number of matches 97. The DC's listed ahead and immediately behind him in kill totals required 2-3 times as many matches to attain similar kill totals and DIED 2-3 times MORE (Doesn't seem effective to me). The assist totals as well would be similar if the same number of matches were to be played. Although in that case the DPS DC's kill total would demolish the competition.
The GWF ranked just ahead of Captain Jack has very similar numbers. Did that player under perform in PvP as well? I believe the real issue here is a preconceived notion of what a DC is supposed to be and how it is supposed to behave. I fully blame WoW for this polluted vision of what a cleric is supposed to be. Clerics in the age of pencil and paper D&D were more than just heal/debuff. They had spells like harm that could reduce any enemy to 1 hp with a single spell. Word of Faith to blind and stun enemies. Magical darkness in which only they could see. Role oriented classes reduce player creativity and cause stagnation. "Free your mind".
While the number of DCs near the top of the Leaderboard are few and far between, it is still possible to be in the TOP 4% of all PvP players as a DPS DC. I don't think most people would complain about even being in the top 25%. So you can start embracing your inner DPS DC instead of denying it... You know u want to smash stuff with your Divine Daunting Light.... Don't You?
DPS cleric is fun and all but is totally unviable in premade matches atm. It'd absolutely be a miracle if you could kill any skilled BiS players of other classes 1v1-wise without getting killed first.
In mod 5 tho DPS cleric would be a thing, but it's only possible because of the empowered Astral Shield, which could make us virtually invincible. But I think it would get nerfed before launch, once nerfed, DPS cleric won't be viable anymore (kill fast but die even faster).
Anyway, it's middle school math, it doesn't take someone with a Ph.D to understand something so simple.
You're right; it's middle school math, so I don't understand why you're using it.
To model diminishing returns, I took a cubic interpolation of select data points, generating a conservative estimate that is fairly accurate for lower levels, has sharper diminishing returns, and is easier to analyze:
I then used the following MATLAB code to model the amount of damage required to kill a passive player, accounting solely for total health and defense:
function y = neverwinter(x, u, a)
% Compares HP to DEF by calculating
% Domain: x - [0, 1], proportion of redistributable stat points
% u - [0, 1], proportion unmitigated damage [0, 1]
% a - [0, 1], proportion armor penetration [0, 1]
StatPoints = 18; % total number of stat points available for redistribution
HPBase = 22483; % HP with no stat points invested
DEFBase = .17; % DR with no StatPoints invested
HPPerPoint = 600; % one point equal 150 defense
DEFPerPoint = 150; % one point equals 600 HP
HPFeat = 1.09; % DC heroic feat multiplier
f = @(x)(5.772607875*10^(-12)*x.^3 - 6.539537381*10^(-8)*x.^2 + 2.478916927*10^(-4)*x + 2.131628207*10^(-14));
fp = @(x)(3*5.772607875*10^(-12)*x.^2 - 2*6.539537381*10^(-8)*x + 2.478916927*10^(-4));
% Basic function
%y = (HPBase + HPFeat*HPPerPoint*StatPoints*(1-x))./(u + (1-u)*(1-a)*(1 - f(DEFPerPoint*StatPoints*x) - DEFBase));
% Set to zero for max
y = -HPPerPoint*HPFeat + (1-u)*(1-a)*(HPBase + HPFeat*HPPerPoint*StatPoints*(1-x)).*fp(DEFPerPoint*StatPoints*x)*DEFPerPoint./(u + (1-u)*(1-a)*(1 - f(DEFPerPoint*StatPoints*x) - DEFBase));
end
You mentioned armor penetration and unmitigable damage but did not specify how prevalent or how 'bursty' this damage is, so the function takes a proportion for each value and assumes that all mitigation is distributed equally, e.g., if u = 0.30, then 30% of all damage ignores defense.
The basic function plots the amount of raw damage to kill a player versus the proportion of defense assigned from a fixed amount of gear score that is available to be redistributed among either defense or HP (and assuming that all points not allocated to defense have been allocated to HP instead). The constants are filled with stats from my own character at the time. I have assumed all my defense is available to be redistributed when, in actuality, none of my enchants were dedicated to defense, which came entirely from my standard gear.
If it is assumed that there is no unmitigable damage and no armor penetration, we observe the following curve:
If you assume 30% unmitigable damage and 30% armor penetration, as expected, defense becomes less valuable:
Of course, these are extremes. To get a real sense of the curve, we can use a little calculus to differentiate our equation and solve for the maximum value and then plot that against armor penetration (0 - 1) or unmitigable damage (0 - 0.5):
This plot requires a numerical solver, so we can whip up a basic bisection method:
function y = neverbisect(u, a)
% depends on neverwinter.m
err = eps;
x1 = 0;
x2 = 1;
fx1 = neverwinter(x1, u, a);
while abs(x2 - x1) >= err
y = x1/2 + x2/2;
fy = neverwinter(y, u, a);
if fx1 < 0 && fy < 0 || fx1 > 0 && fy > 0
x1 = y;
fx1 = fy;
else
x2 = y;
end
end
end
And plot it conveniently with an auxiliary function:
function neverplot()
statBalance = 2700; % set to StatPoints*DEFPerPoint to see defense numbers
n = 40;
Z = zeros(n, n);
x = 1;
for u=linspace(0, 0.5, n)
y = 1;
for a=linspace(0, 1, n)
Z(x, y) = neverbisect(u, a)*statBalance;
y = y + 1;
end
x = x + 1;
fprintf('%d / %d\n', x, n);
end
surf(linspace(0, 0.5, n), linspace(0, 1.0, n), Z);
end
As you can see, it requires 100% armor penetration or 50% unmitigable damage (with a gentle curve in between) before defense becomes worthless. Therefore, since this is a conservative model, HP is certainly NOT the most valuable stat. I'd post another angle, but I'm apparently limited to four pics, so feel free to run the code yourself.
All of this, of course, is a very crude approximation for an active, healing character who can break LoS and recover HP, so it says very little about my cleric's stat point distribution. Keep in mind, also, that we're talking about differences of at most only 7-8k raw damage here, so HP stat distribution is certainly NOT the cause of a significant, noticeable distinction between classes. However, this is an example of taking your model to the next, non-middle school level.
If you're going to argue, do it with data and facts, not with appeals to pathos or ethos, and, if you're going to use data and facts, I'd suggest using big boy methods.
Now, who said they had some differential equations to show me?
Thanks for proving us wrong. I'm not knowledgeable enough in math (not math major here) to understand much of what you're doing so I'd take your word for it.
Shouldn't you be spending time on your dissertation instead of analyzing a game though ?
If you would like to optimize your cleric for DPS then I would suggest this website.... It was quite helpful and would appeal to your mathematical mind.
First of all, why did you convert to counting by 150 GS? Keep it simple and stick to real numbers.
2nd, all your graphs show that after a pretty low investment in DR, it's better to go with uncapped stats - HP.
3rd, yeah, you did not include deflection. Deflection is straight up DR that cannot be bypassed (except for when prone).
4th, you did all that work to pretend to be smart on the internet? That speaks for itself.
Sure DR and Deflect is nice, but ROI sucks as you go up. Sure, it's not "totally worthless" - but how close to worthless will you tolerate before you go with something better?
At 4000 defense you have 35.4% DR and at 5000 you get 37.6%. So you get +2.2% DR - at 35k HP that will give you about ~750 effective HP, whereas you can get 4000 HP out of that.
And that is exactly what your graphs show as well - except you obfuscated it to make an irrelevant point.
Sure, use graphs to find the absolute max - you'd help yourself and others more if you did that properly.
First of all, why did you convert to counting by 150 GS? Keep it simple and stick to real numbers.
2nd, all your graphs show that after a pretty low investment in DR, it's better to go with uncapped stats - HP.
3rd, yeah, you did not include deflection. Deflection is straight up DR that cannot be bypassed (except for when prone).
4th, you did all that work to pretend to be smart on the internet? That speaks for itself.
Sure DR and Deflect is nice, but ROI sucks as you go up. Sure, it's not "totally worthless" - but how close to worthless will you tolerate before you go with something better?
At 4000 defense you have 35.4% DR and at 5000 you get 37.6%. So you get +2.2% DR - at 35k HP that will give you about ~750 effective HP, whereas you can get 4000 HP out of that.
And that is exactly what your graphs show as well - except you obfuscated it to make an irrelevant point.
Sure, use graphs to find the absolute max - you'd help yourself and others more if you did that properly.
4) I did "all that" work to demonstrate the type of argument that is effective and to encourage people to use facts instead of opinions in this thread. It takes no more time than forming any other thought-out response.
3) Correct, I did not include deflection. I upgraded the defense versus HP model that another individual posted. Again, the point is not to draw conclusions regarding my character but rather to demonstrate methods that are effective at changing my mind.
2) The graphs do not indicate what stat is a better investment because -- as you cited yourself -- the model does not include other stats, such as deflection or regeneration, class mechanics, such as healing, or play style. What they DO show, however, is that any possible stat point distribution imbalance favoring defense over HP would be a very low impact. In short, low HP cannot explain the observations and is irrelevant to the thread.
1) 150 is a real number. It happens to be the number on a certain rank enchantment that was in my character's bag from which I confirmed the conversion 150 defense = 600 HP. They are just units; it doesn't impact the analysis in any manner.
And yes, defense suffers from diminishing returns. In fact, the ONLY defense my character had was not optional -- the standard from equipment. My claim has never been that stacking defense is the optimal strategy.
Nothing is obfuscated. The graphs show that a balance of HP and defense is desirable, and, for non-healing classes, the amount of defense gained 'automatically' from gear is probably as much or more than is needed. It says nothing about where the sweet spot is for healing clerics.
I appreciate your taking the time to look at the data; critical review is always welcome. Thank you.
4. Your argument is not effective.
3. No one cares about your mind. Don't blame others for ineffective models you use.
2. Those graphs are irrelevant, because they do not include diminishing returns. They're just some fairytale land imaginings of a wishful thinker.
1. 150 is an unnecessary projection -> obfuscates the irrelevant point made by the graphs -> stick to real numbers 1 Defense = 1 GS and 4HP = 1GS
4. Your argument is not effective.
3. No one cares about your mind. Don't blame others for ineffective models you use.
2. Those graphs are irrelevant, because they do not include diminishing returns. They're just some fairytale land imaginings of a wishful thinker.
1. 150 is an unnecessary projection -> obfuscates the irrelevant point made by the graphs -> stick to real numbers 1 Defense = 1 GS and 4HP = 1GS
3> There are several posts attempting to change my mind.
2> Yes, they do include diminishing returns. In fact, the cubic interpolation used to approximate diminishing returns is harsher than the real curve. The model for diminishing returns is the very first graph.
1> This is a completely pointless objection. It obfuscates nothing. These numbers are used internally and are not even present on the graphs.
3. Nope, they're just stating what works in PvP (for everyone above your bracket). Your mind is your own problem.
2. The graphs I'm referring to are chihuab's; your graphs are also irrelevant because you're arguing against some imagined extreme proposition that Defense is useless in all cases. Your graphs don't really show anything - yeah, ArP and Piercing damage beat Defense - so what? Everyone knows that. Will you have some defense left after you stacked 6000? Sorta.
You should inspect people that kill you in PvP to see how much ArP+Debuffs they have. A single PvE 4p bonus(SW), class feature, feat, and a weapon enchant will move your graph by 90% (to the part where your graph goes off the actual model). And that's just one player without anything orange. Will you get some use out of your defense? Sorta; you can hold on to your 10%, but you're better off getting enough HP to make regen count and just soak up the damage of the first rotation - then heal yourself for the next rotation.
1. This is a completely pointless projection. It obfuscates reading of your faux-code. This projection is not necessary and is not relevant to anything in the game or the graphs.
3. Nope, they're just stating what works in PvP (for everyone above your bracket). Your mind is your own problem.
2. The graphs I'm referring to are chihuab's; your graphs are also irrelevant because you're arguing against some imagined extreme proposition that Defense is useless in all cases. Your graphs don't really show anything - yeah, ArP and Piercing damage beat Defense - so what? Everyone knows that. Will you have some defense left after you stacked 6000? Sorta.
You should inspect people that kill you in PvP to see how much ArP+Debuffs they have. A single PvE 4p bonus(SW), class feature, feat, and a weapon enchant will move your graph by 90% (to the part where your graph goes off the actual model). And that's just one player without anything orange. Will you get some use out of your defense? Sorta; you can hold on to your 10%, but you're better off getting enough HP to make regen count and just soak up the damage of the first rotation - then heal yourself for the next rotation.
1. This is a completely pointless projection. It obfuscates reading of your faux-code. This projection is not necessary and is not relevant to anything in the game or the graphs.
You are seriously arguing about nothing. You are literally making stuff up to argue about, which is completely wrong of course. Why are you even posting?
You are seriously arguing about nothing. You are literally making stuff up to argue about, which is completely wrong of course. Why are you even posting?
You should try being right about something.
Sweet!
Now, go ahead and tell that to yourself.
I wanted you to come up with it yourself, you know, like a real proof. I know you hate when professors just hand you the proofs/formulas in class. Here, with me, you got to come up with it yourself.
You're welcome.
Co-Founder of -Valor-
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gorkzillaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
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How about you take a look at your HP first?
Don't feed the troll.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Are you stunning or proning the SW right away, then ensuring that you are NEVER in their line of sight until other players from your team come and kill the SW? Given the encounters you're running, it looks like no. SW's can put out massive damage much faster than you can heal yourself.
If you're taking the time to hit them with Power of the Sun first, then the SW has time to curse you and start shredding you. Don't bother trying to debuff them. Stun the SW and move. Even if you stand in your Astral Shield, the sheer damage output of an SW (particularly a PvP specced Fury SW who likely has well over 3K ArPen) is going to shred you.
I've never seen anyone dodge a curse, so right away you're fighting at a disadvantage. But yes, you must stay out of their Dreadtheft and dodge Killing Flames.
Not a curse, but an at-will power than maintains a DoT on you that refreshes every time to damage the SW. Wonderful for killing squishies.
You need several things.
First, the situational awareness to not let them hit you first.
Second, you need to ensure that you're out of their line of sight as much as possible.
Third, you need to stun or prone them so that you can get away - they are much, much faster than you are going to be.
Fourth, you need to put Radiants (ranked as high as you can manage) in all of your defensive slots. They are going to have the ArPen to tear through just about any defense so you need to be able to outlast them.
I know Gim gear is not the best... but the stat difference from Grim to Profound is not worth the grinding time. No reason Grim Faithful gear, which is like 75% defense, shouldn't be enough to let you survive in PvP long enough to make a difference.
Clerics are by far the most useless class for PvP in the game at the moment. I feel like I let my team down just by playing a cleric. I hope these new changes make a difference... or Neverwinter is getting uninstalled. Too much time or money has to be invested into one character to make me want to role something different.
They introduced the race change token, perhaps its time for a class change token. It would allow you swap your items that are class specific for the equivalent items of the other class (t1 for t1, t2 for t2, artifact weapon etc.)
It is possible to play as a DPS in PvP currently and succeed.
.BLADE RUNNERS.
Yes... it's possible to do anything on a DC if you've got the right team to carry you or the other team is worse. I can post dozens of screenshots of matches where I have 0 deaths and the score is 1000-0 in PvP domination and claim that it's "possible to play as a tank DC in PvP currently and succeed," ignoring the fact that I still die crazy fast in most matches against equally geared players.
OBVIOUSLY, you CAN succeed as a DPS cleric, just like you can succeed as a renegade CW, a GWF who isn't iron vanguard, a SW without glyphs, and so on... but you're definitely going to fail more often than not all else being equal.
I guess the real question is what do people believe success is?
Is success completing the entire PvP campaign?
Is success being in the top 3 every domination match for score and/or kills?
Is success being in the top 100 pages of the Leader Board?
Your post infers that either a DC needs a strong team or a weaker enemy in order to succeed. Which is basicly saying nothing at all because the losing team is always worse when speaking to team composition. They might of had better Leader Board Ranking and gear, but as a team they lost.
The screen shot above is not that i had the lowest deaths but the Highest kills during the entire Gauntlgrym period. Half of those kills were solo 1:1. My post was in answer to someone that felt as a DC they weren't able to contribute anything to PvP.
To me there is nothing more satisfying than coming upon a massive clash and obviously/quickly turning the tide of the battle with well placed DPS shots on SWs/CWs sitting in the back unloading on my team... They always slide back and allow my team to defeat the closest opponents if it was "evenly matched prior to my arrival."
Before the Tyranny of Dragons mod it was more beneficial to use Astral Shield and Hallowed Ground, but with the current state of Glyphs and DPS outpacing healing in a massive way I choose to pick 2-3 targets and smack them hard in the back to force retreat. Usually Chains followed by Divine Daunting light for 1/2 their health. If a second target is nearby I give them my daily flame strike. More often than not the CWs/SWs cluster in the back and allow for up to Double Kills. This leaves punishing light for the Triple Kill (soulforged and dodges can be your best friend when obtaining triples.)
Enemy clusters are given a Divine Glow in Divine mode of course. In the mean time disperse Astral Seal to multiple targets to help your team.
If your gear is near top then the only people you should be dying to ridiculously quick are people utilizing glyphs which is far more frequent recently and will become obvious with the next mod when their effects are fixed ( This is not saying that you shouldn't die in a 1:1 matchup with a striker). In the mean time the only way to deter the use of a red dragon glyph against you is to use a blue dragon glyph. A Purified Black Ice Overload stone would also provide some extended life... So use astral seal on them immediately when they Proc the Blue dragon Glyph and you will receive additional healing.
SWs most often debuff and burn... the counterintuitive thing to do is charge them, but in 1:1 that is what you need to do. You can't outrun them and you can't sit still and try to outheal their DPS. Approaching them 15-30 degrees to their right or left (or slide criss cross) and constantly sliding out of the beam if you have Healing Step Feat. Fire off Astral Seal while approaching along with Forgemasters and Break Spirit (This is my domination PvP set up). Daunting light in divine mode hits quite often because most classes underestimate the DC. If you hit with all those encounters and actually have a crit chance of 35% or higher, then the SW is now looking to retreat.
In summary if you win, then you've got the right team.. if you lose you don't. 1. A DC can contribute greatly through debuff and understanding each PvP interaction as it occurs (Is your team focusing too much on the GF tank while allowing the strikers to pick them apart?). 2. Forcing the other teams strikers to deal with you ( a single target ) as opposed to your team and buying them time to win. (To me this is a win even if I die.) 3. Forcing strikers to retreat (Again to me this is a win) 4. DC is at a severe disadvantage vs. any class in PvP. Dodges need to be near perfect on a regular basis. (But this doesn't mean you can't contribute in a meaningful manner.
.BLADE RUNNERS.
The point is that DC in this mod is the weakest PvP class. Going DPS as a DC makes you even more vulnerable in PvP against players with half a brain, hence, yes, if you're going DPS, your team needs to be better than the other team to make up for the fact that 1) they have the least effective DPS class in the game (all else being equal) and 2) one of the squishiest classes, made even more vulnerable by the fact that, as DPS, you have even worse self-sustain (with the lack of heals)...
So basically, what I was saying is that you can do anything on DC with the better team and claim to be successful, whether it's DPS, being AFK in spawn, or using only at-wills... It's not hard to get kills and avoid dying when your team is doing 3 times better than the other team in the score... (as in your screenshot)... But I still think that going DPS on a DC is generally a bad idea in PvP domination matches where people have gear and know how to PvP.
As an aside... the "fix" to the glyphs is already live... and since they're also affected by debuffs, they can actually hit you for higher than their noted base damage.
If you've got two equally geared and skilled teams, except that one has a DC and the other doesn't, then the team with a DC is at a disadvantage. So yes, you need a stronger team in order to succeed. If your DC decides to go full DPS for some crazy reason, then you'll need an EVEN stronger team to succeed.
That's what I'm saying.
The only time I've found it worthwhile to go DPS on a DC is when facing worse players.
Well.. the PvP campaign is designed around killing and stuff.. so.. I wouldnt call it crazy, but rather a somewhat selfish but mandatory goal towards completing it.
I'm at awe for Captain Jack for being able to complete the PvP campaign, cool.. must've taken quite a lot of insults and stuff getting there.. I tried it several times going full DPS, and i just couldnt do it.. i strongly feel that I benefit the group more by doing support (back in mod 3 where i still PUG routinely, now i just dont bother PvPing at all).
But well, it's a GWF.
So if we are to apply your theory that 2 evenly matched teams face off and one has a DC utilizing DPS then the team in question is at a disadvantage and should lose. Domination PvP performance with PUG groups is a far better measure of player effectiveness because you will not have other players assisting in the padding of stats. While the matching system is imperfect, it is the mechanic that drives PvP interaction. (This is also the method by which most people play) Given that the DPS DC team is at a disadvantage, then we should expect that team to lose more than 75% of the time. We all know the matching system doesn't provide equal terms on a regular basis but if the DC team is at a disadvantage, then they should lose at least 50% of the time. I believe this is more than fair for an analogy, but the problem with your theory is that DPS DCs can and do perform at a significantly higher win, kill/death ratio than what you suggest.
Captain Jack's win rate is 64%, his kill to death ratio is 1.34 kills for every death he suffered. Leaderboard ranking page 109 of 2733 pages. Kill ranking page 205. Total number of matches 97. The DC's listed ahead and immediately behind him in kill totals required 2-3 times as many matches to attain similar kill totals and DIED 2-3 times MORE (Doesn't seem effective to me). The assist totals as well would be similar if the same number of matches were to be played. Although in that case the DPS DC's kill total would demolish the competition.
The GWF ranked just ahead of Captain Jack has very similar numbers. Did that player under perform in PvP as well? I believe the real issue here is a preconceived notion of what a DC is supposed to be and how it is supposed to behave. I fully blame WoW for this polluted vision of what a cleric is supposed to be. Clerics in the age of pencil and paper D&D were more than just heal/debuff. They had spells like harm that could reduce any enemy to 1 hp with a single spell. Word of Faith to blind and stun enemies. Magical darkness in which only they could see. Role oriented classes reduce player creativity and cause stagnation. "Free your mind".
While the number of DCs near the top of the Leaderboard are few and far between, it is still possible to be in the TOP 4% of all PvP players as a DPS DC. I don't think most people would complain about even being in the top 25%. So you can start embracing your inner DPS DC instead of denying it... You know u want to smash stuff with your Divine Daunting Light.... Don't You?
.BLADE RUNNERS.
Raist Torilrocker | Dwarf | DCWaterdeep Dungeon & Salvage LLC
http://www.twitch.tv/raist718/profile
DPS cleric is fun and all but is totally unviable in premade matches atm. It'd absolutely be a miracle if you could kill any skilled BiS players of other classes 1v1-wise without getting killed first.
In mod 5 tho DPS cleric would be a thing, but it's only possible because of the empowered Astral Shield, which could make us virtually invincible. But I think it would get nerfed before launch, once nerfed, DPS cleric won't be viable anymore (kill fast but die even faster).
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
You're right; it's middle school math, so I don't understand why you're using it.
To model diminishing returns, I took a cubic interpolation of select data points, generating a conservative estimate that is fairly accurate for lower levels, has sharper diminishing returns, and is easier to analyze:
I then used the following MATLAB code to model the amount of damage required to kill a passive player, accounting solely for total health and defense:
You mentioned armor penetration and unmitigable damage but did not specify how prevalent or how 'bursty' this damage is, so the function takes a proportion for each value and assumes that all mitigation is distributed equally, e.g., if u = 0.30, then 30% of all damage ignores defense.
The basic function plots the amount of raw damage to kill a player versus the proportion of defense assigned from a fixed amount of gear score that is available to be redistributed among either defense or HP (and assuming that all points not allocated to defense have been allocated to HP instead). The constants are filled with stats from my own character at the time. I have assumed all my defense is available to be redistributed when, in actuality, none of my enchants were dedicated to defense, which came entirely from my standard gear.
If it is assumed that there is no unmitigable damage and no armor penetration, we observe the following curve:
If you assume 30% unmitigable damage and 30% armor penetration, as expected, defense becomes less valuable:
Of course, these are extremes. To get a real sense of the curve, we can use a little calculus to differentiate our equation and solve for the maximum value and then plot that against armor penetration (0 - 1) or unmitigable damage (0 - 0.5):
This plot requires a numerical solver, so we can whip up a basic bisection method:
And plot it conveniently with an auxiliary function:
function neverplot() statBalance = 2700; % set to StatPoints*DEFPerPoint to see defense numbers n = 40; Z = zeros(n, n); x = 1; for u=linspace(0, 0.5, n) y = 1; for a=linspace(0, 1, n) Z(x, y) = neverbisect(u, a)*statBalance; y = y + 1; end x = x + 1; fprintf('%d / %d\n', x, n); end surf(linspace(0, 0.5, n), linspace(0, 1.0, n), Z); endAs you can see, it requires 100% armor penetration or 50% unmitigable damage (with a gentle curve in between) before defense becomes worthless. Therefore, since this is a conservative model, HP is certainly NOT the most valuable stat. I'd post another angle, but I'm apparently limited to four pics, so feel free to run the code yourself.
All of this, of course, is a very crude approximation for an active, healing character who can break LoS and recover HP, so it says very little about my cleric's stat point distribution. Keep in mind, also, that we're talking about differences of at most only 7-8k raw damage here, so HP stat distribution is certainly NOT the cause of a significant, noticeable distinction between classes. However, this is an example of taking your model to the next, non-middle school level.
If you're going to argue, do it with data and facts, not with appeals to pathos or ethos, and, if you're going to use data and facts, I'd suggest using big boy methods.
Now, who said they had some differential equations to show me?
Shouldn't you be spending time on your dissertation instead of analyzing a game though
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/342-crit-power-and-dps-the-numbers-guide
.BLADE RUNNERS.
First of all, why did you convert to counting by 150 GS? Keep it simple and stick to real numbers.
2nd, all your graphs show that after a pretty low investment in DR, it's better to go with uncapped stats - HP.
3rd, yeah, you did not include deflection. Deflection is straight up DR that cannot be bypassed (except for when prone).
4th, you did all that work to pretend to be smart on the internet? That speaks for itself.
Sure DR and Deflect is nice, but ROI sucks as you go up. Sure, it's not "totally worthless" - but how close to worthless will you tolerate before you go with something better?
At 4000 defense you have 35.4% DR and at 5000 you get 37.6%. So you get +2.2% DR - at 35k HP that will give you about ~750 effective HP, whereas you can get 4000 HP out of that.
And that is exactly what your graphs show as well - except you obfuscated it to make an irrelevant point.
Sure, use graphs to find the absolute max - you'd help yourself and others more if you did that properly.
Second weakest.
4) I did "all that" work to demonstrate the type of argument that is effective and to encourage people to use facts instead of opinions in this thread. It takes no more time than forming any other thought-out response.
3) Correct, I did not include deflection. I upgraded the defense versus HP model that another individual posted. Again, the point is not to draw conclusions regarding my character but rather to demonstrate methods that are effective at changing my mind.
2) The graphs do not indicate what stat is a better investment because -- as you cited yourself -- the model does not include other stats, such as deflection or regeneration, class mechanics, such as healing, or play style. What they DO show, however, is that any possible stat point distribution imbalance favoring defense over HP would be a very low impact. In short, low HP cannot explain the observations and is irrelevant to the thread.
1) 150 is a real number. It happens to be the number on a certain rank enchantment that was in my character's bag from which I confirmed the conversion 150 defense = 600 HP. They are just units; it doesn't impact the analysis in any manner.
And yes, defense suffers from diminishing returns. In fact, the ONLY defense my character had was not optional -- the standard from equipment. My claim has never been that stacking defense is the optimal strategy.
Nothing is obfuscated. The graphs show that a balance of HP and defense is desirable, and, for non-healing classes, the amount of defense gained 'automatically' from gear is probably as much or more than is needed. It says nothing about where the sweet spot is for healing clerics.
I appreciate your taking the time to look at the data; critical review is always welcome. Thank you.
Decent trolling by the OP here. Almost got me.
23.7K HP. That's like... a Ray of Frost channel from mine or a single Crit Icy Rays/Ice Knife to pulverize you.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
3. No one cares about your mind. Don't blame others for ineffective models you use.
2. Those graphs are irrelevant, because they do not include diminishing returns. They're just some fairytale land imaginings of a wishful thinker.
1. 150 is an unnecessary projection -> obfuscates the irrelevant point made by the graphs -> stick to real numbers 1 Defense = 1 GS and 4HP = 1GS
As for relevant graphs, they've already been made:
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj
That is all you need to know.
3> There are several posts attempting to change my mind.
2> Yes, they do include diminishing returns. In fact, the cubic interpolation used to approximate diminishing returns is harsher than the real curve. The model for diminishing returns is the very first graph.
1> This is a completely pointless objection. It obfuscates nothing. These numbers are used internally and are not even present on the graphs.
2. The graphs I'm referring to are chihuab's; your graphs are also irrelevant because you're arguing against some imagined extreme proposition that Defense is useless in all cases. Your graphs don't really show anything - yeah, ArP and Piercing damage beat Defense - so what? Everyone knows that. Will you have some defense left after you stacked 6000? Sorta.
You should inspect people that kill you in PvP to see how much ArP+Debuffs they have. A single PvE 4p bonus(SW), class feature, feat, and a weapon enchant will move your graph by 90% (to the part where your graph goes off the actual model). And that's just one player without anything orange. Will you get some use out of your defense? Sorta; you can hold on to your 10%, but you're better off getting enough HP to make regen count and just soak up the damage of the first rotation - then heal yourself for the next rotation.
1. This is a completely pointless projection. It obfuscates reading of your faux-code. This projection is not necessary and is not relevant to anything in the game or the graphs.
You are seriously arguing about nothing. You are literally making stuff up to argue about, which is completely wrong of course. Why are you even posting?
You should try being right about something.
Best line has to be..
"Did I mention I'm in a mathematics Ph. D. program?"
Are you getting your Ph. D. at ******bag State Uni? or is it Icouldntbemorepretentious College?
Sweet!
Now, go ahead and tell that to yourself.
I wanted you to come up with it yourself, you know, like a real proof. I know you hate when professors just hand you the proofs/formulas in class. Here, with me, you got to come up with it yourself.
You're welcome.