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Thoughts on balancing TR
nwnghost
Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Introduction
These thoughts will primarily be looking at improving the desirability of having a Trickster Rogue in the party, without overbuffing the class, as has happened with just about every other class.
Something to consider is that a properly-built Executioner Master Infiltrator Trickster Rogue will in the current Meta still beat an equally geared GWF or CW in single target damage, so there will be relatively few changes suggested to the Executioner tree itself.
The second premise is to balance the Trickster Rogue more away from Perma or semi-perma playstyle that has near equal damage potential as a non-perma Trickster Rogue. Any gains in stealth duration and potency will be balanced against loss of opportunity to choose a more damaging, but less stealthy, option. For example, the only source of base increase in stealth duration will now be item sets, thus choosing a stealth set gives you longer stealth but potentially less damage.
Thirdly, while Trickster Rogue are primarily a single target focus class, I'd also like to grant the Trickster Rogue some tools to deal with multiple enemies, so it feels less clunky and useless when dealing with big pulls and the like (other than "hey I can throw a smoke bomb")
Lastly, I am hoping to suggest the minimal number of changes to come up with the best solution and work within what is possible within the system provided rather than go into wishful thinking.
Let's start with Basic Mechanics:
Stealth - whenever using an at-will attack whilst stealthed will now accelerate the speed at which stealth is deplenished by 10%. This debuff is removed and reset when exiting stealth.
Note that this is increasing the speed rather than the rate itself - think profession assets. 100% increased stealth deplenishment speed = 50% normal stealth time on paper, but actually closer to 65% of normal, because you will have spent 9 earlier attacks at slower deplenishment rates.
Combat Advantage - now correctly benefits from increased damage from Charisma and feats
Potentially a lot of damage lost because of attribute and feats not properly granting damage bonuses
Powers:
Cloud of Steel - Increase charges back to 12.
Coupled with the changes to stealth, this will not permit the player to remain stealthed for significant periods while pelting the target with daggers.
Dazing Strike - Add: Cone of attack increased by 10 degrees per rank
This will help the Trickster Rogue strike 3 targets more reliably with this power, hence improving utility versus multiple targets
Deft Strike - Add: Cooldown decreased by 1.5 seconds per rank
This power is underused primarily due to low damage and high cooldown. Granting it a faster cooldown improves mobility and may grant it more uses, particularly in PvP
Bloodbath - Change: Now strikes 50% faster, reducing overall duration of the power
This daily was attacking at such a slow rate, that outside of PvP where it was used as an escape mechanism, it has no utility as an actual damaging power because enemies can easily exit the Bloodbath area and it prevents the Trickster Rogue from actually using other powers. Changing it to strike faster is in line with past changes to GWF's Spinning Strike
Bait and Switch - Add: Dummy is granted an Enforced Threat effect. Change: When dropped from stealth, it is instant but no longer refreshes stealth. Instead, it reduces damage of all enemies within 150' by 5% per rank while the Dummy remains alive.
The dummy had almost no uses in PvE due to not actually causing mobs to hit it and in PvP was insignificant and only used for a stealth refill. Now it has more utility that will enable it to be used more tactically.
First Strike - Change: Deal 3/6/9% additional damage if no damage was taken in the last 3 seconds
Previously never used simply because you are pretty much always in combat
Whirlwind of Blades - Change: Damage decreased by 33%, target cap increased to 10
This power now deals less damage to single targets (which was too powerful when considering it cannot be mitigated) and is a better multi-target daily power now
Lashing Blade - Change: Cooldown decreased by 1 second per rank, damage increased by 30% from Stealth, but no longer guaranteed to critical
The cooldown was too long to make this Encounter worthwhile compared to the amount of damage it dealt, which was comparable to Dazing Strike
Blitz - Change: Target cap increased to 8
Grant slightly more AoE potential
Infiltrator's Action - Change: Increase Combat Advantage damage by 4/8/12% after using a daily power for 10 seconds
Making this feat actually useful and considering that players normally always have combat advantage, or if not, should position themselves to have it, rewarding tactical play
Impact Shot - Change: Damage reduction of missing charge only applies when targeting players
Currently the damage reduction makes this power useless in PvE play
Skillful Infiltrator - Change: Movement speed bonus decreased to 2/4/6% from 5/10/15%
An extremely powerful and must-have feature at present, completing eclipsing other class features, hence needing a bit of toning down.
Impossible to Catch - Add: Increase cooldown by 1 second per rank
This is to keep the power potent as a CC immunity but preventing it from being used quite so excessively
Courage Breaker - Fix: Make the damage reduction by 90% actually work. Add: Increase debuff duration by 1 second per rank
This is probably what keeps the Daily from being used much
Disheartening Strike - Change: Animation speed increased by 60%. Damage over Time effect ticks every 0.5 seconds for 6 seconds. Additionally applications of the power reset the timer instead of removing the previous effect and applying a new effect.
Too slow and clunky to be useful at present and damage is dealt too slowly to be useful. Also attacking the same target multiple times would never result in the DoT effect actually taking effect.
Dagger Threat - Add: Affects targets in an additional 10' distance per rank
For 20' you have to be in the enemy's face and against a moving target, it would just about never take effect
Razor Action - Change: Now affects ranged Encounters such as Blitz, Impact Shot, Vengence's Pursuit and Shadow Strike as well. Base damage increased to 30% of the original attack's power (keeping the +5% damage per rank)
Simply too weak at present. Using Whirlwind of Blades dealt 200 damage to nearby targets, which was laughable for taking up a Class feature slot.
Advantageous Position - Change: After using a Daily Power, gain 15% bonus deflection chance for 5 seconds (keeping +1 second per rank)
This is the "survival" class feature for the Whisperknife and makes it more useful compared to other choices
Hateful Knives - Change: Increase damage of this daily power by 20%
This is to make it comparable in potential with Shocking Execution and also Whirlwind of Blades, both of which outperform this power.
Heroic Feats:
Battle Wise - Change: Decrease threat generation by 6/12/18%
2/4/6% simply is not noticeable when you are a high damage dealer. Even Adorable Pocket Pet grants 5%. This feat will still only be useful for specific playstyles
Improved Cunning Sneak - Change: Increased movespeed while stealthed by 2/4/6/8/10%
Part of the plan to remove perma stealth and grant stealth other bonuses
Paragon Feats:
Saboteur:
Baited Action - Change: Dummy has 15/30/45/60/75% increased health and reflects 2/4/6/8/10% of damage dealt to it
Dummy that can actually take a few hits, making it more useful with the new debuff that dummies provide
Expert Sneak - Change: At will powers no longer decrease damage targets deal, instead, they have a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to apply a 2 second daze on the target
Giving Saboteurs some team utility and survivability
Unerring Ambush - Change: Regain 15% of Stealth meter when using an Encounter while not in stealth. 4 second internal cooldown
Giving Saboteur the chance to be in stealth more deep in the tree to forgo taking more damaging options
Ruthless Efficiency - Change: Each at will attack whilst stealthed now only increases stealth deplenishment speed by 3%, down from 10%. Additionally, gain 20% Recharge Speed Increase while stealthed.
Allowing this paragon to be more stealthy than the others and increasing benefits of remaining stealthed
Scoundrel:
Berserk Vitality - Change: When using Sly Flourish, regain 1/2/3/4/5% of damage dealt as hitpoints
Catering to the brawling playstyle, giving straight Lifesteal for using Sly Flourish
Nimble Blade - Change: When dealing non-critical damage, 45% chance to deal 10/20/30/40/50% bonus damage
Considering how much damage critical strikes do, the high base critical chance of Trickster Rogues and that this is chance based, it needs more damage to be viable
Press the Advantage - Change: When under the influence of Impossble to Catch, deal 2/4/6/8/10% increased damage
Given that Trickster Rogues are usually lower in Power, this will grant more damage overall and make it worth taking
Mocking Knave - Change: Increase damage of Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel by 3/6/9/12/15%, keeping Cloud of Steel bonus damage stacks.
This is to give Scoundrels more damage to keep up with the Executioner
Catspaw Style - Change: Damaging Encounters reduce targets' defenses by 10% for 1/3/5/7/9 seconds, this effect cannot stack
Granting Scoundrels more team utility that lasts for a reasonable duration given Trickster Rogue's long Encounter cooldowns
Action Rush - Change: 25% chance to gain 4/8/12/16/20% of total Action Points when using an Encounter, 2 second internal cooldown
This makes the feat more tactical to use rather than spam as many low cooldown Encounters as quickly as possible and allows rotations not containing Wicked Reminder and Impact Shot to also be viable in triggering it
Brutal Wound - Change: Damage is no longer distributed over 5 seconds, but deals up to 250% weapon damage per second. Also now applies to all damaging Daily Powers.
Allowing use of Daily Powers to actually provide noticeable damage
Whirlwind Sneak Attack - Change: Deal 10% bonus damage for 8 seconds and reduce Encounter cooldowns by 2 seconds after leaving stealth
Giving a small boost to the first encounter was weak for a capstone. This change maintains the Scoundrel's purpose as a not-so-stealthy damage dealer who uses stealth for executing specific attacks but shines when not in stealth.
Executioner:
Thrill of the Kill - Change: Gain 1/2/3/4/5% of total Action Points after killing a target (2 second internal cooldown)
Making this feat actually worth taking and have a noticeable effect
Cruelty's Reward - Change: Critically Striking a target reduces its movement speed by 1/2/3/4/5% for 5 seconds
Allowing the Executioner to keep the target in range
Determined Pursuit - Add: Reduce cooldown of Vengeance's Pursuit by 6/12/18/24/30%
Allowing this power to be used more frequently and improves mobility of WK Executioners
Sharpened Steel - Change: Damaging Encounters have a 1/2/3/4/5% higher chance to strike critically
Making this feat actually worthwhile
These thoughts will primarily be looking at improving the desirability of having a Trickster Rogue in the party, without overbuffing the class, as has happened with just about every other class.
Something to consider is that a properly-built Executioner Master Infiltrator Trickster Rogue will in the current Meta still beat an equally geared GWF or CW in single target damage, so there will be relatively few changes suggested to the Executioner tree itself.
The second premise is to balance the Trickster Rogue more away from Perma or semi-perma playstyle that has near equal damage potential as a non-perma Trickster Rogue. Any gains in stealth duration and potency will be balanced against loss of opportunity to choose a more damaging, but less stealthy, option. For example, the only source of base increase in stealth duration will now be item sets, thus choosing a stealth set gives you longer stealth but potentially less damage.
Thirdly, while Trickster Rogue are primarily a single target focus class, I'd also like to grant the Trickster Rogue some tools to deal with multiple enemies, so it feels less clunky and useless when dealing with big pulls and the like (other than "hey I can throw a smoke bomb")
Lastly, I am hoping to suggest the minimal number of changes to come up with the best solution and work within what is possible within the system provided rather than go into wishful thinking.
Let's start with Basic Mechanics:
Stealth - whenever using an at-will attack whilst stealthed will now accelerate the speed at which stealth is deplenished by 10%. This debuff is removed and reset when exiting stealth.
Note that this is increasing the speed rather than the rate itself - think profession assets. 100% increased stealth deplenishment speed = 50% normal stealth time on paper, but actually closer to 65% of normal, because you will have spent 9 earlier attacks at slower deplenishment rates.
Combat Advantage - now correctly benefits from increased damage from Charisma and feats
Potentially a lot of damage lost because of attribute and feats not properly granting damage bonuses
Powers:
Cloud of Steel - Increase charges back to 12.
Coupled with the changes to stealth, this will not permit the player to remain stealthed for significant periods while pelting the target with daggers.
Dazing Strike - Add: Cone of attack increased by 10 degrees per rank
This will help the Trickster Rogue strike 3 targets more reliably with this power, hence improving utility versus multiple targets
Deft Strike - Add: Cooldown decreased by 1.5 seconds per rank
This power is underused primarily due to low damage and high cooldown. Granting it a faster cooldown improves mobility and may grant it more uses, particularly in PvP
Bloodbath - Change: Now strikes 50% faster, reducing overall duration of the power
This daily was attacking at such a slow rate, that outside of PvP where it was used as an escape mechanism, it has no utility as an actual damaging power because enemies can easily exit the Bloodbath area and it prevents the Trickster Rogue from actually using other powers. Changing it to strike faster is in line with past changes to GWF's Spinning Strike
Bait and Switch - Add: Dummy is granted an Enforced Threat effect. Change: When dropped from stealth, it is instant but no longer refreshes stealth. Instead, it reduces damage of all enemies within 150' by 5% per rank while the Dummy remains alive.
The dummy had almost no uses in PvE due to not actually causing mobs to hit it and in PvP was insignificant and only used for a stealth refill. Now it has more utility that will enable it to be used more tactically.
First Strike - Change: Deal 3/6/9% additional damage if no damage was taken in the last 3 seconds
Previously never used simply because you are pretty much always in combat
Whirlwind of Blades - Change: Damage decreased by 33%, target cap increased to 10
This power now deals less damage to single targets (which was too powerful when considering it cannot be mitigated) and is a better multi-target daily power now
Lashing Blade - Change: Cooldown decreased by 1 second per rank, damage increased by 30% from Stealth, but no longer guaranteed to critical
The cooldown was too long to make this Encounter worthwhile compared to the amount of damage it dealt, which was comparable to Dazing Strike
Blitz - Change: Target cap increased to 8
Grant slightly more AoE potential
Infiltrator's Action - Change: Increase Combat Advantage damage by 4/8/12% after using a daily power for 10 seconds
Making this feat actually useful and considering that players normally always have combat advantage, or if not, should position themselves to have it, rewarding tactical play
Impact Shot - Change: Damage reduction of missing charge only applies when targeting players
Currently the damage reduction makes this power useless in PvE play
Skillful Infiltrator - Change: Movement speed bonus decreased to 2/4/6% from 5/10/15%
An extremely powerful and must-have feature at present, completing eclipsing other class features, hence needing a bit of toning down.
Impossible to Catch - Add: Increase cooldown by 1 second per rank
This is to keep the power potent as a CC immunity but preventing it from being used quite so excessively
Courage Breaker - Fix: Make the damage reduction by 90% actually work. Add: Increase debuff duration by 1 second per rank
This is probably what keeps the Daily from being used much
Disheartening Strike - Change: Animation speed increased by 60%. Damage over Time effect ticks every 0.5 seconds for 6 seconds. Additionally applications of the power reset the timer instead of removing the previous effect and applying a new effect.
Too slow and clunky to be useful at present and damage is dealt too slowly to be useful. Also attacking the same target multiple times would never result in the DoT effect actually taking effect.
Dagger Threat - Add: Affects targets in an additional 10' distance per rank
For 20' you have to be in the enemy's face and against a moving target, it would just about never take effect
Razor Action - Change: Now affects ranged Encounters such as Blitz, Impact Shot, Vengence's Pursuit and Shadow Strike as well. Base damage increased to 30% of the original attack's power (keeping the +5% damage per rank)
Simply too weak at present. Using Whirlwind of Blades dealt 200 damage to nearby targets, which was laughable for taking up a Class feature slot.
Advantageous Position - Change: After using a Daily Power, gain 15% bonus deflection chance for 5 seconds (keeping +1 second per rank)
This is the "survival" class feature for the Whisperknife and makes it more useful compared to other choices
Hateful Knives - Change: Increase damage of this daily power by 20%
This is to make it comparable in potential with Shocking Execution and also Whirlwind of Blades, both of which outperform this power.
Heroic Feats:
Battle Wise - Change: Decrease threat generation by 6/12/18%
2/4/6% simply is not noticeable when you are a high damage dealer. Even Adorable Pocket Pet grants 5%. This feat will still only be useful for specific playstyles
Improved Cunning Sneak - Change: Increased movespeed while stealthed by 2/4/6/8/10%
Part of the plan to remove perma stealth and grant stealth other bonuses
Paragon Feats:
Saboteur:
Baited Action - Change: Dummy has 15/30/45/60/75% increased health and reflects 2/4/6/8/10% of damage dealt to it
Dummy that can actually take a few hits, making it more useful with the new debuff that dummies provide
Expert Sneak - Change: At will powers no longer decrease damage targets deal, instead, they have a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to apply a 2 second daze on the target
Giving Saboteurs some team utility and survivability
Unerring Ambush - Change: Regain 15% of Stealth meter when using an Encounter while not in stealth. 4 second internal cooldown
Giving Saboteur the chance to be in stealth more deep in the tree to forgo taking more damaging options
Ruthless Efficiency - Change: Each at will attack whilst stealthed now only increases stealth deplenishment speed by 3%, down from 10%. Additionally, gain 20% Recharge Speed Increase while stealthed.
Allowing this paragon to be more stealthy than the others and increasing benefits of remaining stealthed
Scoundrel:
Berserk Vitality - Change: When using Sly Flourish, regain 1/2/3/4/5% of damage dealt as hitpoints
Catering to the brawling playstyle, giving straight Lifesteal for using Sly Flourish
Nimble Blade - Change: When dealing non-critical damage, 45% chance to deal 10/20/30/40/50% bonus damage
Considering how much damage critical strikes do, the high base critical chance of Trickster Rogues and that this is chance based, it needs more damage to be viable
Press the Advantage - Change: When under the influence of Impossble to Catch, deal 2/4/6/8/10% increased damage
Given that Trickster Rogues are usually lower in Power, this will grant more damage overall and make it worth taking
Mocking Knave - Change: Increase damage of Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel by 3/6/9/12/15%, keeping Cloud of Steel bonus damage stacks.
This is to give Scoundrels more damage to keep up with the Executioner
Catspaw Style - Change: Damaging Encounters reduce targets' defenses by 10% for 1/3/5/7/9 seconds, this effect cannot stack
Granting Scoundrels more team utility that lasts for a reasonable duration given Trickster Rogue's long Encounter cooldowns
Action Rush - Change: 25% chance to gain 4/8/12/16/20% of total Action Points when using an Encounter, 2 second internal cooldown
This makes the feat more tactical to use rather than spam as many low cooldown Encounters as quickly as possible and allows rotations not containing Wicked Reminder and Impact Shot to also be viable in triggering it
Brutal Wound - Change: Damage is no longer distributed over 5 seconds, but deals up to 250% weapon damage per second. Also now applies to all damaging Daily Powers.
Allowing use of Daily Powers to actually provide noticeable damage
Whirlwind Sneak Attack - Change: Deal 10% bonus damage for 8 seconds and reduce Encounter cooldowns by 2 seconds after leaving stealth
Giving a small boost to the first encounter was weak for a capstone. This change maintains the Scoundrel's purpose as a not-so-stealthy damage dealer who uses stealth for executing specific attacks but shines when not in stealth.
Executioner:
Thrill of the Kill - Change: Gain 1/2/3/4/5% of total Action Points after killing a target (2 second internal cooldown)
Making this feat actually worth taking and have a noticeable effect
Cruelty's Reward - Change: Critically Striking a target reduces its movement speed by 1/2/3/4/5% for 5 seconds
Allowing the Executioner to keep the target in range
Determined Pursuit - Add: Reduce cooldown of Vengeance's Pursuit by 6/12/18/24/30%
Allowing this power to be used more frequently and improves mobility of WK Executioners
Sharpened Steel - Change: Damaging Encounters have a 1/2/3/4/5% higher chance to strike critically
Making this feat actually worthwhile
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
No to stealth nerf. Go try other forum where classes are scared of TR maybe they will support it.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
TRs are never gonna be buffed without a stealth nerf, because the developers will never allow the old "invisibility + massive burst" again.
They've already experienced nightmares in CoH with the Stalker scourge.
They've been so careful to never do that again in CO, hence stealth was a trash power for more than good half of that game. Up to date its still difficult to come up with a "stealth-assassin" build because the power ha so many restrictions.
And then, they've done basically the same "stealth+burst" thing in the early days of Neverwinter, which consequentially resulted in the unending stream of damage nerfs because its impossible to "balance the weight" in regards to just how much damage is sufficient trade-off for such a strong defensive power like stealth.
You can't reverse time. The ship's sailed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
What about keeping the actual stealth mechanic, juste reducing our ability to make it last for ever (no effects from at will but reduced duration and no options to improve it out of scoundrel) ?
Let's have perma-stealth but low damage saboteur, a scoundrel that actually did bad thing to it's target (stun, debuff...) and an executer who execute...
I know we need to restrict stealth, but I am not sure we need to end perma-stealth, just make it linked to our stealth-based feats family.
Also, I feel that you forget some majors thing.
Example : lashing blade : actually the priest's daunting light hit harder on multiple target at the same time and reload in half the time you reload the LB. A 14k TR hit about 8000 when not doing a crit... more than 15s cool-down for something that will make as many damages as 3 flourish strikes...
And it is not the only power that can't keep the comparison with other classes power (even not DPS classes).
___________________________________________________
About what you suggest, Let's look at it :
Cloud of Steel - well, it feel good.
Dazing Strike - Might work
Deft Strike - The power still hit like an at-will... but at least now it had a chance to be used as a dodge.
Bloodbath - I approve
Bait and Switch - As I say, I would prefer a reduced stealth with obligation of taking scoundrel for low-damage perma-stealth. What about keeping stealth-reload, but only a certain percent, that will be improved by both levels of the power and a scoundrel talent to reach an important level ?
If it's impossible, so, it might be good, except that it would be even better if actually working like a dodge (immunity during the animation I mean) i think TR lack dodges for an agile class.
First Strike - Change: sounds good
Whirlwind of Blades - Change: why not
Blitz - Change: sounds good
Infiltrator's Action - Change: I am not particularly interested in those "after-dallies" upgrades, but why not... still more useful than the actual.
Impact Shot - Change: sounds good
Skillful Infiltrator - Change: Yes I approve, but with a condition : put an other movement or dodge improve somewhere else (armor, talents, something) cause the TR already lack of mobility (and remember that HR obtain as many movement from a simple armor). TR need to be a fast moving/dodging guy, it's not a warrior.
Courage Breaker - Fix: sounds good
Disheartening Strike - Change: I approve, but the equivalent for MI (gloaming cut) also need something I think... Not bad for damage but to slow to really be useful. The reload stealth nearly never proc in groups as it is slow, so no good dps and no real stealth bonus out of sharandar.
Dagger Threat - Add: sounds good
Razor Action - Change: a must have, actually it does nothing, and don't worth any power-points...
Advantageous Position - Change: why not...
Hateful Knives - Change: why not... but in my opinion SE also need a rework, because it is nearly useless, except in some pvp matches...
Heroic Feats:
Battle Wise - Change: sounds good
Improved Cunning Sneak - Change: why not, but same opinion about how to reduce stealth here...
Paragon Feats:
Saboteur:
Baited Action - Change: has I have suggested it, it might also make the decoy partially reload stealth.
Expert Sneak - Change: sound good
Unerring Ambush - Change: why not... but as I say, I don't really like the way you change stealth
Ruthless Efficiency - Change: same here
Scoundrel:
Berserk Vitality - Change: That might make this skill useful... Actually, it is just useless.
Nimble Blade - Change: actually, the talent improve damage by 1 or 2 percents (others class get much more), so, yes, we can't avoid it. Sounds good
Press the Advantage - Change: sounds good
Mocking Knave - Change: why not, but something around debuff or control might feet better I think. Executioner is 1-target damage, no need for Saboteur to be in the same path.
Catspaw Style - Change: why not
Brutal Wound - Change: sounds good
Whirlwind Sneak Attack - Change: why not...
Executioner:
Thrill of the Kill - Change: still have the problem that you don't kill a lot of enemies in groups (CW and GWF have too much finishes power), but at least now there is a reward, instead of nothing...
Cruelty's Reward - Change: might be useful in pvp, but clearly useless in PvE, while the actual bonus still have some use in PvE... As a mainly PvE player, I am sceptical... at least.
Determined Pursuit - Add: why not.
Sharpened Steel - Change: Seriously, a must have... There is no use in a crit from wicked remember
As a conclusion, I would say that I see good balance here, but nothing that will improve the situation : No one want rogues in dungeons... We need something to be competitive again against CW/GWF/WL, and I see nothing here that can make the difference.
What about power that deal more damage in PvE than in PvP ?
It might at the same time improve PvP without consequences in PvP.
Because actually, we have less damage on a single target than a CW on every mob of a pack at the same time...
PS : sorry for my English, I do my best but it is not my native language...
You still have the Profound sets granting increased Stealth duration, and the feats that allow you to regain stealth meter when using dodge, and gloaming cut. Unerring Ambush rework also lets you return to stealth a lot faster, even if you are being attacked.
Also remember that Tenacious Concealment and Shadow Strike are not changed, so you also get stealth there.
The result is exactly as you wanted - a low damage near perma (it is still full perma if you don't take too much damage).
Scoundrel is the multi target and tactics tree now. Sly Flourish is not really a single target at will, because unlike Duelist's Flurry, you are mobile and can switch targets much quicker and easier. The boosts to this at will make it deal only slightly less damage than using Duelist's Flurry on a single target (including bleed damage). This tree has the lowest encounter cooldowns and fastest AP gain so you can make a lot of use from Dailies with added bonus from class feature reworks. That enables it to be useful in groups in PvE and be able to brawl in PvP. This tree is aiming to use short duration Stealth more often, rather than long duration stealth.
Executioner has only very small changes because it is already powerful vs single target. The changes to powers make this tree more viable for multi targets too, but not nearly as much as Scoundrel. The damage overall of this tree is increased due to buffs to the feats and powers.
I think overall, this allows TRs to deal more damage to single targets than other classes (Executioner) and be close to GWF for adds (Scoundrel), but provide a lot more team utility (control).
Of course my suggestions are not final and I am open to thoughts on how to improve TRs further, without going overboard with buffs, which in the long term is bad for the game
*But*... current gameplay for utilizing Disheartening Strike against anything it can't one-shot is to keep tossing it until you see it crit, then allow the DoT to play out while busying yourself with other things. Maybe it would matter less with a faster activation. This power has been key to my ability to solo-initiate 3-5 player IWD heroics and clear some of the initial spawns while waiting for others to arrive (I can't finish them alone because I'd run out of time), by applying the DoT to sequential targets and letting them all bleed out, pressing additional damage onto the meatier targets. It's a bit tricky to play because targetting individual mobs in a group is so sketchy, but great fun, and I like that it's an at-will you need to use more strategically instead of just holding down your mouse button. I'd love faster activation but I always felt that this was the trade-off for the huge damage potential it has in the right hands.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Yes, maybe we can consider that the possibility to change target really fast is enough to make the scoundrell multi-target DPS,
I understand that executioner is already powerful, and don't ask for a boost of this talent tree.
But that change nothing about encounters like Lashing Blades : some TR encounters have no use actually, because they are out-damaged by equivalents from any other classes (faster reload and/or heavier damages
I think strategical use is cetainly part of Disheartening Strike, and I do the same as you on my Whisperknife presently. However, it feels that overall for a Paragon At Will, it is fairly lacklustre due to being slow and cumbersome to use. For example if there are 4 targets, you can try to get bleeds on each of them, but by the time you applied it to target 4, target 1's bleed is about to run out again, and overall, you'd be faster at killing these 4 enemies using either Sly Flourish or Duelist's Flurry, which defeats the purpose of using Disheartening Strike. Making it damage faster and for longer, it would be great for stacking dots while still being able to use other at wills to maximize damage. I am by no means advocating that people should use Disheartening Strike for everything and forget other at wills. Making the duration longer also allows people to make more use out of the Distracting Knife paragon feat in the Saboteur Tree for example.
I think maybe Lashing Blade could have a slightly faster cooldown and rather than be a guaranteed crit out of stealth, deal 30% more damage if used from Stealth, that would make it more appealing to use I imagine, and not too powerful for say PvP.
Also, nwnghost, your idea about LB look good.
You discredit yourself. Another person who tried to nerf TR to help his class, spotted.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
There's more to the future of TRs than just holding onto an outdated feature.
Open your eyes and see the reality man.
We're just not going back to "us TRs will be fine so long as you let us keep doing perma/semi-perma, and just give us our 30k Lashing Blades back" days.
Of course, if you want to hold on to that one thing and keep insulting others who even discuss or suggest a different path for TRs, that's also your choice.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That is why most important is to ignore people as they are. They don't care for TR, all they care is themselves or their other classes. If you TR respect yourselves then you will ask for deserved buffs to be at least equal with other classes.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
It's pointless to ask for buffs and justify them by pointing to a class that is going to be getting toned back when we get our rework.
Deft Strike: It already slows the target that is hit to a crawl, though of course this does little versus GWFs and SWs who can just sprint and ignore the debuff. A Stamina drain would actually be interesting. Something of the order of 10% stamina drain per rank.
Bloodbath: Escape button usually is Vengeance's Pursuit (which hopefully gets fixed to actually break CC) or Impossible to Catch, though you can also use powers such as Deft Strike and Smoke Bomb. Blood Bath still would be useful as an additional escape mechanism, but that would no longer be its primary purpose (especially given the name of the Power).
Lashing Blade: Usually Trickster Rogues have very high crit chances already, so using it from stealth more often than not is not actually a benefit. Giving it a damage boost when used from crit would make it deal more damage on a character with a high crit chance, and not deal much less damage on a character that does not crit. Additionally, Executioners will have further means of boosting crit chance, so overall I consider that a buff to this power.
Dazing doesn't last 4 sec in pvp. and they don't move that slow after. GWF have stun and it is not OP. Basically we need a way for our control to benefit us. IE GWF stun then land IBS. We daze and they run away. It is pointless and thats why you don't see anyone using it in pvp. It has to be a stun
Currently Dazing Strike lasts maybe somewhere between 2.5 and 4.0 seconds, and there is no slow effect at all. The slow only happens with Smoke Bomb, and its a separate effect not associated with the daze.
Hence, I can land a good hit smack on top of a HR, for instance, and then I have nothing else to do, since all he has to do is walk in one direction and there is no melee at-will I can land at all. You can get the 1st hit of SF or DF in, but the next attacks all miss. If the HR <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the walking angle around and doesn't buy enough distance you can land all three jump-DF attacks, but only stupid people do that. The rest simply push down the S key and after daze dissipates you're in trouble.
Ofcourse, you can do well with single-hit burst powers like Dazing Strike - Lashing Blade combo. But that's already two offense encounters on the slot. The third has to be SS. No choice at all with how TRs are right now. So then whether you're MI or WK, you got no ITC to use, and no BnS to perma.
So no, we can't use DS and LB at the same time. So any attack that can be chained after landing a CC has to be at-wills. And we're melees, that can't land melee hits, because of the goddarn melee-unfriendly way the system is rigged.
....*ptooey*
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
yup hence why we need stuns:)
Why stop at there? They can build a whole new system with a slight little bit of compelxity to make things spicy and fun.. if they put their mind to it.. like certain interesting feats that add special buffs/debuffs to at-wills or encounters. You hit with those, set it up, and then bam, blow the stacks up for added damage and CC.. etc..
(ps) You know what else the TRs need? Total invisibility. Not the "we can see you when you're close" shi*.
I mean, the CWs and HRs, ranged monsters, they don't flinch even a bit even when you're smashing their head in at 2' in front of them. No slip of concentration, no loss of focus. Heck, "I've got Purified giving me 5,500 temp-HP so LULZ".. they just take the hit, stand there, and then CC you or draw the bow and fire in your face as you're swinging your dagger smack in front of them. No "melee range penalty" or anything, no interrupt, no casting cancellation.
So tell me this, why the F**K should us TRs be bound by "realism" rules with the "oh, stealth is stealth, not invisibility, so when you're close you can see them" bullchi*?
We're weak, almost defenseless when we're visible. So we go into stealth. But then, as we approach stealthily to hurt someone, woops, he can see us. We can hit a CW with a crit LB for 15k HP, and then we still can lose, because we're visible, there's no melee-range penalty to ranged attacks. They just take one hit, and then CC us to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and oblvion after that.
Why? Because we're dang visible even in stealth, when we go close.
So ofcourse, don't go melee range even when stealthed. Use flimsy knives to deal puckering damage.
We're melees that are prohbited from meleeing unless we have stuff like ITC or DF that gives total immunity to CCs. Otherwise, try any other melee power and its shi*s and giggles to the CW or the HR.
Heck, we lose in a melee fight if we go toe-to-toe against a HR. A melee class that can't melee for shi*, while the other guy is ranged class that out-melees a melee striker.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Wow ... what happened to the thoughtful, clinical kweassa?!?!?! Tequila?
so true +10chars
P.S. To the developers: You have a great Wizards of the Coast that can actually tell u BY MATH why , and what is OP... or not. Start listening to them instead of the ppl's (me included, and yourselves as well) and listen to the actuall creators of the D'n'D genre. NOT in order for the TR to survive, but for a more competitive game,with ppl's that actually give a **** to be better and not making cross-class comments. In order for Neverwinter to survive.
P.S. 2 To the ppl's:Of course the better/worse player with Uderstanding of the game, dont apply to all.But I'd serioulsy doubt your abillity or wits if u took personal offence on the comments above .BTW the best non tr's i ve come up against are alts on accounts that hasas a main,(guess what), a TR
P.S.3 I dont know many tr's that go head up in GF's "PoS" or GWF's "Ustoppable" yet there are hundreds of GF's Or GWF's that really try to hit "ITC" and they keep hitting "BaS" , some of them probably made comments and posts , which made the devs to nerf TR's. its just sad.
P.S.4 I hate cross class comments no matter where they come from.I think onne should focus on his class than yelling about how stronger another class is.(Unless of course you are of the ones that dont feel nice when a GF has "KV" on ). But as much as I hate those comments, I welcome thoughtful suggestions more, cause can make me a better ppl
Thank you all for reading
I applaud OP for his intellectual prowess and depth.
Edit: Oh and also with a dodge I have noticed that when my stamina bar is not full (or half full rather) and I press a button to dodge, my character will wait for the bar to be filled and then perform a dodge. Can be annoying as well.
More like idiocy.
The stuff I've been writing about weaknesses of TRs is something I noticed relatively quickly when I first started using it. For one thing, I'm basically a melee player, and among melees I like the technical types.
I don't like the "heavy damage/impregnable defense" types, and all through the years my favorite choices were "weaker damage but lot of technical fighting" type of classes. Lightly armoured, quick on one's feet, lightning strikes, fits better for me than full-plate armor, sword&shield and thundering blows, if you know what I mean.
Obviously the first thing I noticed was other TRs were using ranged powers. Then after trying out melee powers in combat I realized the game's not melee-friendly in PvP. Too many gaping weaknesses here and there.. with the only reason other TRs were doing well with medium-range tactics (DF and CoS) that stealth just simply took care of everything.
At that moment, I realized it wasn't going to last. Nobody, no player in any PvP content, enjoys fighting something you can't see and therefore cannot fight back at all. I actually predicted just after mod2 that a nerf was going to come in one way or the other, if you want to search up those posts. Hence the reason the resident idiots like mxtime or f2pma blame me for "bringing in the nerfs *heh*. Not a strange reaction coming from fools. The one with the prophecy must be the one who brings ill-omen, right? Fits the fools' profile.
So far almost everything I predicted, particularly which stuff might be nerfed, happened. I'm still not sure of just what lies in store for us with the upcoming changes, but one thing I am pretty sure of is that no developer "rolls back" once changes are made.
I've been saying it a zillion times.
WE'RE NEVER GOING BACK TO THE DAYS WHENCE WE USED TO DO HEAVY DAMAGE WHILE STAYING STEALTHED AND UNRETALIATED
...and there are still people who don't understand.
Still the people asking for "*fuh fuh* Give us back our old damage and we're all fine *fuh fuh*"
Just at what point, will they understand that the TRs must now ask to become a whole, well-balanced, character, instead of just relying on (1) stealth, (2) damage from stealth, (3) how long one can maintain stealth? We're a godda*ned, proverbial "ONE-TRICK PONY" as it is, and we've been doing this trick since when, since mod2?
The efficiency of stealth keeps falling. Seemingly the developers will never again give us latest items with +stealth duration options. Other classes are moving onto BI/Draconic gear levels and yet, all of us stealth addicts are stil stuck in the past, and as a result we're becoming more and more obscure.
SO WHY IN THE WORLD ARE WE NOT MOVING ON?
BECAUSE WE'RE SO GODDARN WEAK IN EVERY WAY THAT MOVING ON AND GIVING UP STEALTH MEANS WE'RE AT A LIFE-OR-DEATH RISK. ONLY THE RICHEST, MOST BIS TRS CAN MANAGE BI-GEAR TYPE OF COMBAT.
ALL THE REST OF US ARE STUCK HERE AND CANNOT MOVE ON, BECAUSE WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITHOUT STEALTH!
YE FOOLS, STEALTH IS WHAT IS MAKING US GO OBSOLETE, AND IT IS WHAT IS HOLDING US BACK, PREVENTING US FROM MOVING ON.
THE SOLUTION IS NOT GOING BACK IN TIME. THE SOLUTION IS IN THE FUTURE. IT IS BY BECOMING A BETTER OVERALL CLASS WHICH CAN MANAGE AND FIGHT EVEN WITHOUT STEALTH, WHEREIN LIES OUR FUTURE.
WHEN ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO SEE THAT TRUTH?
Okay. Deep breath. Rant over.
Seeing luddites tend to rile me on, so that's what happened to me, not tequila.
Tequila would at least have made me happy.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Actually, I have both black ice and pvp set, so I can use both perma-stealth and non-perma-stealth build to adapt to the situation. I would like to be able to be at the same time useful, not insta-kill by the first trash mob that attack me, and visible, but actually, I am most often reduce to the role of the "Anonymous acupuncturist", as most TRs are, sadly.
Of course, I don't change my position, perma-stealth is a good idea from this game, but should be linked to perma-stealth build, witch is not what happen here (no need for this supposed saboteur stealth-based talents path). I am myself an executioner, and I can spend my all time invisible. I would not have any regret it if this ability disappear, as long as I get a place in dungeons as a counter-part (in fact I'd rather be happy:D), and if any rogue can move to saboteur path and sacrifice damage,control or anything else for perma-stealth (or at least for a really long stealth), that would be even better.
The only thing that is scaring me is loosing my stealth without getting any counter-part.
That would mean the end of the TR, as even the DC can out-dps us if he want, while being at least as resistant to damage...
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
────────────────────────────
why? because they CANT USE TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITIES THEIR ****IN 'TAB' BUTTON WHICH IS STEALTH CAUSE IF THEY DO DARE TO DO IT , ITS DISS OR DIE ALL THE WAY
hence ...
We are not gonna move forward. We are gonna die.We are gonna be GWF's with no 'unstoppable' and a different sign.
Unfortunately as much as i agree with kweassa, i m gonna play till they dissolve the class, and then QUIT playing.I dont mind hitting with 1k dmg, as far as there is a TACTICAL WAY OF THINKING into doing it.I dont want to play a clicking game, I want chess. Alas, I've looked though the looking glass and now I cant go back.The idea that there is no place for tactics in this game makes my guts hurt.for real.at least those 2 hours or more per day that i play this game.A game which is not for kids only, but its gonna be eventually.
BTW, I dont mind playing with no stealth at all, but I play a DC when I want to support with no stealth.
PS to the developers: KIDS DONT PAY
PS To kweassa:I d very much like to see what would happen in full BI and R'10 tr with NO stealth at all.
and now time for some Q&A
Q:what is gonna happen when I actually want to play with stealth on 'TAB'
A:well i guess if i want to move on , that travesty will never happen to me again
...... rant over....
Rogues in many games are flexible and adaptable "light melee" classes. More than anything, they are fighters, swashbucklers, natural acrobats and especially pragmatic "dirty fighters". Sure, the conceptual "backstab" is a very important tool, but its still a tool.
Personally, my take is that a rogue, when we suppose it is not fighting with any stealth at all, should at least be able to fight a 4:6 odds in favor of the enemy. Only when we add in stealth, the fight should become 5:5.
More than anything, we need the TR itself to be a worthy combatant. We need the tools to fight. The tricky, technical, dirty-fighting swashbuckler types -- with stealth as an added bonus and a supplementary tool to make our lives easier -- not have the one, single component of stealth so important that we can't live without it.
Hence I've been trying to convice TR players all along.
■ Give us speed (no, not the pills). We, should be the fastest moving/running class.
■ Give us more dash, rush, sprint type of movement options, whether it comes as a secondary effect, or as a full-blown power choice.
■ Give us more active defenses. ITC isn't enough. WKs don't even have ITC. Give us the parries, riposts, reflect magic, whatever super technical move that you can actively time to dissipate or send back to the enemy
■ Give us more clever and useful utilities. Smoke Bomb that deterrs ranged attack (smoke screen effect), setting up combat-traps., setting up exploding dummies...
■ Give us all sorts of CCs and Dirty fighting tricks.. throwing sand/dirt in the opponent's eyes, approaching someone in stealth and tripping him, applying poison to blade, throwing daggers at the feet to root him, aiming for the eyes to cause a blind... and this, this is what we need the most....
Give us the *nut kick* as a stunning CC.Yeah, you heard me right. Give us the nut-kick. No dirty fighter is complete without a nut-kick. Just give us a darned CC that makes us feel like a dirty rogue. Us Rogues aren't synonymous with "assassins"... some of us rogues are assassins, but there is a lot more to being a rogue than just being a ninja-wannabe.
Jesus almighty, even a gimmicky power like "steal money" I would not mind. Approach someone from stealth in PvP and *clink* steal 50 coppers from their purse?! Totally useless in combat, yes? But who cares. It's fun. More than anything, it makes you feel the combat lie a rogue would feel.
And that's what the TR sorely needs. A mode of fighting that makes you feel like you're a Rogue.... not just a ninja-wannabe throwing shurikens. A mode of fighting which a stealth is a part of -- not the current mode of fighting where stealth dominates everything else.
You know what?
I'm making a demand thread.
I'm gonna demand to the developers that they give us the "nut-kick".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'