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Fix HR piercing blade.

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  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    adamy2004 wrote: »
    i said 12k dmg from 1 proc of piercing blade from fox shift, which includes each proc from each hit of fox shift sorry for the confusion
    Fox shift only hits single target twice maximum. So that's 2 procs of PB maximum. Meaning 6k from each proc.

    From the ACT parse posted earlier, a BiS HR was getting a MAXIMUM of around 2700 from a PN proc. Which is about half what you're reporting?
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Alright, got it now.

    It is possible for a HR to crit a full rotation on you while you are proned and you will get about 10k+ some cheap change damage from PB. Looks like the damage does not respect DR yet it is mitigated by Shields (such as CW one). I am seeing PB hit for 0 damage a few times as well. I cannot be 100% sure but from the log it looks like if an ability is dodged, the PB proc is 0. Definitely needs more testing.
    PB is a percentage of damage dealt by the power that procs it, so if you do zero damage with a power because of a dodge it makes sense that PB will do zero damage also.

    Hmmm... If that also applies to any DR effects on the triggering attack then PB is kinda resisted after all. Have to do some testing later.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • osterdracheosterdrache Member Posts: 480 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    adamy2004 wrote: »
    Then the same could be said about assailing force. but do you want that back as it was? because it originally said "unresistable damage"

    Actually, yes. It was just to strong by pure numbers, not the mechanic itself.
    People who cry for nerfs do this mostly in an absolute way. "REMOVE IT" they scream. And whats that good for? Another broken mechanics are getting indroduced?

    Also nerfs should be moderate (not fixes though). What does it say about initial game design when core abilites are nerfed for over 50%? That the devs had their brains turned off while designing the game in the beginning. And now they found their brains back? With every module I have that impression.

    Its actually a shame what they have done to the CW in mod4. From a skill rewarding exciting class to play to a class 70% depending on random, skilless proccs. Now put the stupid glyphs on top of that.

    But thats another topic.

    I like the idea of unresistable dmg. I think this game was too full of mitigation and immunities. Thats the reason why I dont ever want a cc break for a HR. That would be just cheesy. I want exciting, moderate fast pvp play. If a CW catches me in his lock rotation? So be it. If he misses or do I dodge and engage him, hes in trouble.

    But people seem obsessed with unreasonable nerfing and buffing. Crying for nerfs has become mandatory. No, even more: it has become an attitude.
  • cryptfoundationcryptfoundation Member Posts: 342 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You mean nerf? Because it's obviously not broken..
  • pandora1xpandora1x Member Posts: 725 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You mean nerf? Because it's obviously not broken..

    How? It makes Defensive Sentinel GWF's and other defensive specced classes completely worthless lol.
  • velynnavelynna Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    From what I've seen, piercing damage accounts for approximately 25% of an HR's damage.

    For something that skill-less, it should definitely be toned down. That amount of damage should be given to an encounter that actually requires some skill/practice/experience/brain/timing/something to land.
  • thedemienthedemien Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    pandora1x wrote: »
    How? It makes Defensive Sentinel GWF's and other defensive specced classes completely worthless lol.

    So what really? Sentiel was good in mod 2. Got nerfed in 3. Back to good now.
    It does not have to do with HRs really. Right not we have 2 classes that are OP - CW and HRs. 2nd line is GWF. All 3 of them have thier own issues. Id even say that good skillfull GWF is better then 2 button CW or HR.

    you cry about piersing is not about fix - it works as it is supposed to be. You ask for NERF. So that GWF that are OP did not suffer because there is only 1 class in game that can pierce throw thier defence! That is only what you ask - to be god by that nothing can pierce throw you. simply.

    You what to redisign? As 80% of HR. Combat HR was forced to be the only valueble pvp path for HR in mod 4. We were forced into this way of game. Most of us enjoyed mod 3 at start. Even after constant nerfs on our encounter - fox got nerfed already 3 times!!! Same story to other power.
    Mod 4 killed our control to 0. Or if you have 20% of what CW can in control as a trapper - you pay with no damage and just die 80% of time - you are a meat for CW and others.

    We got nothing now!!! Combat HR had to have some damage boost. Mellee offhand blades that are main now for combat HR do damage as 1 TR blade!
    All out combat encounter are either self focused or do low damage - we don't have combat encounter that do even 8k damage. Look at BIS HR - fox by itself does 5k top!

    Piercing is in a place where is had to be by design. You ask to remove or nerf it equal to kill HRs. Same like DC for PvP. But both pvp and pve HRs.


    Offside note - from todays pvp batle chat with pug. I was afk for 3 minutes. All CW GWF from other team shout how they destroy mine team and so on.. Then I went down. Im well enought pvp equiped HR - not best for sure nor in gear not in skill - around 17-18k GS with only profound set. All I did was dodged CWs stuff and killed 2 CWs and 1 GWF from his back. did this in 1 vs 1. died couple of times 1 vs 3. So we won. But the story is about how all reacted - CW started shouting about HR nerf and other HAMSTER. and gave up. This is how we won! They gave up when faced some chalange!


    Conclusion - learn to play and fight in teams rather then cry after somebody killes you in 1 vs 1 . After you destroyed 4 others alone. And talked HAMSTER . Really learn to be adults and accept that somebody can be better then you lucky face on keybord roll.
  • kaedennnkaedennn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 361 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thedemien wrote: »

    Conclusion - learn to play and fight in teams rather then cry after somebody killes you in 1 vs 1 . After you destroyed 4 others alone. And talked HAMSTER . Really learn to be adults and accept that somebody can be better then you lucky face on keybord roll.

    +1 and devs shouldn't listen to those clueless players !
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    thedemien wrote: »
    Conclusion - learn to play and fight in teams rather then cry after somebody killes you in 1 vs 1 . After you destroyed 4 others alone. And talked HAMSTER . Really learn to be adults and accept that somebody can be better then you lucky face on keybord roll.

    i am so confused....
  • pandora1xpandora1x Member Posts: 725 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thedemien wrote: »
    So what really? Sentiel was good in mod 2. Got nerfed in 3. Back to good now.
    It does not have to do with HRs really. Right not we have 2 classes that are OP - CW and HRs. 2nd line is GWF. All 3 of them have thier own issues. Id even say that good skillfull GWF is better then 2 button CW or HR.

    you cry about piersing is not about fix - it works as it is supposed to be. You ask for NERF. So that GWF that are OP did not suffer because there is only 1 class in game that can pierce throw thier defence! That is only what you ask - to be god by that nothing can pierce throw you. simply.

    You what to redisign? As 80% of HR. Combat HR was forced to be the only valueble pvp path for HR in mod 4. We were forced into this way of game. Most of us enjoyed mod 3 at start. Even after constant nerfs on our encounter - fox got nerfed already 3 times!!! Same story to other power.
    Mod 4 killed our control to 0. Or if you have 20% of what CW can in control as a trapper - you pay with no damage and just die 80% of time - you are a meat for CW and others.

    We got nothing now!!! Combat HR had to have some damage boost. Mellee offhand blades that are main now for combat HR do damage as 1 TR blade!
    All out combat encounter are either self focused or do low damage - we don't have combat encounter that do even 8k damage. Look at BIS HR - fox by itself does 5k top!

    Piercing is in a place where is had to be by design. You ask to remove or nerf it equal to kill HRs. Same like DC for PvP. But both pvp and pve HRs.


    Offside note - from todays pvp batle chat with pug. I was afk for 3 minutes. All CW GWF from other team shout how they destroy mine team and so on.. Then I went down. Im well enought pvp equiped HR - not best for sure nor in gear not in skill - around 17-18k GS with only profound set. All I did was dodged CWs stuff and killed 2 CWs and 1 GWF from his back. did this in 1 vs 1. died couple of times 1 vs 3. So we won. But the story is about how all reacted - CW started shouting about HR nerf and other HAMSTER. and gave up. This is how we won! They gave up when faced some chalange!


    Conclusion - learn to play and fight in teams rather then cry after somebody killes you in 1 vs 1 . After you destroyed 4 others alone. And talked HAMSTER . Really learn to be adults and accept that somebody can be better then you lucky face on keybord roll.

    Didn't read. Nobody's crying just stating facts that Piercing Blade is unfair. Not only Piercing Blade, but unresistable damage in PVP is a BIG NO

    Plus, piercing Blade doesn't bother me since I'm invisible 100% of the time, it never hits me unless I mess up my rotation sometimes.

    You assume I'm a GWF where it clearly states I'm a TR on my sig, you have the reading comprehension of a potato. Never quote me again.

    Nice novel you got there btw pvp proz0r, page 1 I'm assuming? tehehe
  • vteasyvteasy Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    agreed also fix CW passive damage bull****. looks like freaking star wars in pvp now
  • thedemienthedemien Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    pandora1x wrote: »
    Didn't read. Nobody's crying just stating facts that Piercing Blade is unfair. Not only Piercing Blade, but unresistable damage in PVP is a BIG NO

    Plus, piercing Blade doesn't bother me since I'm invisible 100% of the time, it never hits me unless I mess up my rotation sometimes.

    You assume I'm a GWF where it clearly states I'm a TR on my sig, you have the reading comprehension of a potato. Never quote me again.

    Nice novel you got there btw pvp proz0r, page 1 I'm assuming? tehehe

    Hey potato. not a proz0r. are you?
    pvp somewhere around 80 pagel last time I checked. You can see by yourself if you are smart enought.
    did I ever sad that you are gwf? Try reading first help.
    Or you just whine if it does not bothers you? Btw had I ever sad something about TRs?. You take too much for yourself - nobody cares about your sig really not what you say you should do.
    how does perma stells TR feels? Maybe it should be also nerfed ?

    Im not saying that piercing in its way now is good. But there must be a way to get throw tought defence builds is not it? Not assuming you say Armor Pen - hope you know about it, right?

    And if you read why piercing existed in first place - you could understand something.
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    As pointed out elsewhere, PB is compensating for the fact that HR blades were never originally designed to be a main weapon. When the Devs decided to create a pure Combat tree they had to address base damage and instead of changing Blade base damage - which would put more melee DPS in the hands of all three trees - they decided to go with PB. I wish they'd done something different, personally, and either increased the base damage of Blades or boosted melee encounters. But PB is not 'broken' - it's working exactly as the Devs intended. So stop pretending that this is anything other than a 'nerf plox' thread.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thedemien wrote: »

    Im not saying that piercing in its way now is good. But there must be a way to get throw tought defence builds is not it? Not assuming you say Armor Pen - hope you know about it, right?

    Yep, the way to get thru tough defences is indeed Armor Penetration, its a stat, we all have it. If you want to keep the concept of HRs penetrating defences just give them more natural ArmPen, like GFs have more health. But auto-piercing damage ? No
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
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  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    it's working exactly as the Devs intended. So stop pretending that this is anything other than a 'nerf plox' thread.

    The OP asked for crits on PB, more dmg, so the thread is not nerf..., but the responses are. Assailing force worked as intended and got nerfed, so thats not an argument.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    As pointed out elsewhere, PB is compensating for the fact that HR blades were never originally designed to be a main weapon. When the Devs decided to create a pure Combat tree they had to address base damage and instead of changing Blade base damage - which would put more melee DPS in the hands of all three trees - they decided to go with PB. I wish they'd done something different, personally, and either increased the base damage of Blades or boosted melee encounters. But PB is not 'broken' - it's working exactly as the Devs intended. So stop pretending that this is anything other than a 'nerf plox' thread.

    I agree here. Blades damage or melee encounter damage should be increased and PB should be replaced with something else.

    Looking at the different paths this will happen:

    Archer PVE: won't change much as ranged powers spamming will still dominate the scene and entering melee would still be suboptimal, but will give Archers a little bit more hope of taking down monsters if the get swarmed.
    Archer PvP: even with more blade damage Archer will still be so vulnerable to CC in melee that I don't see the number of Archer PvPers going up anyway.

    Combat PVE: rangers usually get enough ARP already to completely go through monster defenses so a difference will only be due to a mismatch between PB and the increase in blades/powers damage.
    Combat PvP: also here the effect can be "modulated" with the right increase in blade damage and a feat slot will open for some more Combat-ish stuff.

    Trapper PvE: a boost here to the melee side which will be good at the main bosses (MC, VT, LoL) where everything is CC-immune.
    Trapper PvP: a boost here too, so we could have more chances to see a few Trappers PvPing and not only combat builds.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    asterotg wrote: »
    The OP asked for crits on PB, more dmg, so the thread is not nerf..., but the responses are. Assailing force worked as intended and got nerfed, so thats not an argument.
    Oh I know that WAI is no protection against the Nerf Hammer. The funny thing about the Assailing Force nerf is that they hit completely the wrong target - should have been Storm Spell.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • metaplexusmetaplexus Member Posts: 123 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Oh I know that WAI is no protection against the Nerf Hammer. The funny thing about the Assailing Force nerf is that they hit completely the wrong target - should have been Storm Spell.

    Though there should be no denying assailing force required some downtuning, at least on the pvp-side.
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Wai is not a shield against nerf hammer cause the devs make huge changes in a big shot and test is done by few ppl and is not extensive. So they end up with something unexpected and then nerf/ change. Pvp can' t be really tested on preview. Just a bunch of iwp 1v1s...

    But must also note how experienced pvpers usually can gauge the real effects of the changes, but are rarely listened. It was reported how SS worked on preview. Cws asked to keep shard instead. Nothing.


    Glyphs proved terribile. How long before they replace/ rework this broken stuff? If se gonna play star wars, i want a super cool light saber for my gwf. And i'm talking about a real one, not a crappy sword with pvorpal (joking. Would't say no to a p.vorpal. feel free to mail it to me)
  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    They should just buff the damage by 10-30% and make it resistible / deflected in pvp just like assailant
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW

    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
    [SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
  • cookiecrisp15cookiecrisp15 Banned Users Posts: 532 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    crazymikee wrote: »
    They should just buff the damage by 10-30% and make it resistible / deflected in pvp just like assailant

    what more free dmg?
    not happening it needs o be nerfed right now w,o any buffs to it.
  • thedemienthedemien Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    emilemo wrote: »
    Yep, the way to get thru tough defences is indeed Armor Penetration, its a stat, we all have it. If you want to keep the concept of HRs penetrating defences just give them more natural ArmPen, like GFs have more health. But auto-piercing damage ? No

    I do agree that AP should be general stat. Btw HR have problem with overmuch AP now.
    Thing is that All cry about Piercing comes that it can not be deflected. Just as an example - all pvp build state that for HR you need to have 2.5 AP at least. Plus points for strength add up damage ignored. So my mostly HR now has 3k AP from just gear! It gives around 28% of resistance ignored. Plus +5% from strength = 32% of resistance ignored. GF and GWF may know better what is their stat for resistance usually but -32% of it is ignored by any HRs attack.

    If you look at piercing from point of 40% of base attack. It is not so much damage added up on top of 32% ignored one. And this can very easily made higher. Just buy all profound gear for combat - bow, off hand, full armor set - you will have sky high resistance ignored.

    But piercing can not be deflected. On other hand - its does not apply to stealth-ed targets or dodges. And does damages only if you have base damage done.
    Right now we have gwf run, SW run add extra immunity. Plus a lot of TRs have crazy deflect changes with 75% of deflection severity or HRs with 60% and 52% severity and 30% of damage resistance.
    So I think dev added piercing as opposite power against all this stuff.

    Idea to make is work better is good. But I really not sure that having it crit will do any good. It defently will be bad for HR since most combat build have very low crit chance. It may still be able balance lost of that 3-10% of extra damage that goes throw as not resistible.

    HR have a lot of natural ArmPen already and its hard to balance not to hit top cap already in combat build.

    so if you on it out of the box - all they did is equivalent increased all combat damage by >40% ~ 50% for both at will and only combat encounters. They could have just increase base damage for blades and rework all melee encounter for more damage and more resistance ignored. This would make HR look more "skilled" not passive. But the outcome would be still same or close. IT was just more work and more balancing and testing - not stuff devs are good at now.


    Hope I explained you a bit of how it all works now. Id really love to see other combat build - like 80% of feets is not really "true" HR now for me.
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    metaplexus wrote: »
    Though there should be no denying assailing force required some downtuning, at least on the pvp-side.
    When it was tested on Preview there was no particular issue with Assailing Force (apart from the lack of skill required). It was only when they buffed Eye of the Storm and Storm Spell that CW DPS got completely out of control.

    The devs seem to have used these unresistable damage types to boost PvP DPS without such a large impact in PvE where mobs have limited DR.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    what more free dmg?
    not happening it needs o be nerfed right now w,o any buffs to it.
    Bless. The butthurt is strong with this one.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    thedemien wrote: »
    bla bla

    40% dmg reduction+ 40% deflect+ 22 tenacity dmg reduction and 80% dmg reduction in unstoppable. All that means nothing... i say they should give only you another buff and call it a day!
  • pandora1xpandora1x Member Posts: 725 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thedemien wrote: »
    pvp somewhere around 80 pagel last time I checked.

    Didn't read anything else. This is all I needed to know. Lmao

    Bye
  • thedemienthedemien Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    pandora1x wrote: »
    Didn't read anything else. This is all I needed to know. Lmao

    Bye

    You are good at did not reading anything. does reading hurts you? )
  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    what more free dmg?
    not happening it needs o be nerfed right now w,o any buffs to it.

    Techincally the total damage you would be getting would be roughly the same if not lower if it was mitigated and could be deflected, making it that much less op. Look how assailant was, the way it is now is much more managable for the other classes and piercing blades should be no different, not to mention there is no cooldown which makes it probably more lethal then assailant was
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW

    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
    [SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
  • thedemienthedemien Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    crazymikee wrote: »
    Techincally the total damage you would be getting would be roughly the same if not lower if it was mitigated and could be deflected, making it that much less op. Look how assailant was, the way it is now is much more managable for the other classes and piercing blades should be no different, not to mention there is no cooldown which makes it probably more lethal then assailant was

    Is Peircing now only one power that ingores resistance?
  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thedemien wrote: »
    Is Peircing now only one power that ingores resistance?

    hell if i know, but no other cw abilities is unresistable and cw was the only one i was really paying attention to
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW

    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
    [SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
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