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To B or not to B

celticgamer0celticgamer0 Member Posts: 537 Arc User
edited September 2014 in General Discussion (PC)
I have wondered the thoughts from other players about bound items and what should or shouldn't be BoP or BoA. I know that the items from the festival should get rid of BoC, in fact, I think all BoC should be dropped from the game. Keep things either BoE or BoA. What are your thoughts?
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Comments

  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    BoP should ALWAYS be BoA.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    BoA minimum. But the majority should be BoE anyway. VT and MC would have been worth doing a little more if you could dos something with the off hands. Preferably they should drop one each run too like CN does... At the minimum I should be able to give it to another of my characters if I win the roll on the wrong character. If I've earned something, why should I be restricted with what to do with it?
  • anharmonanharmon Member Posts: 175
    edited September 2014
    I don't actually know why BoP exists. If you don't want it sold on the AH, why can't I at least give to another char of mine? I've worked for it, I've done all the grinding/whatever necessary for it, it's just on the wrong char.

    Not sure how things stand on what "should" be BtA and what should be BoE. I'd guess that we're leaning on the side of too much BoP and not enough BoE, but whatever. I'd rather just have BoP turned into BtA first.
  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    In my opinion, do away with Binding except for Zen and Promotional items.

    1) Make all Zen and Promotional items Bind to Account.
    2) All other items in the game should not bind, allowing them to be sold or traded.

    Alas, #2 would only be prudent if they bring in item decay, meaning over the course of its use, non-Bound items would suffer durability loss and eventual destruction if not repaired. Make each repair loose some durability so eventually, the more an item is repaired, the less "shelf-life" it will have.

    Then, introduce a Zen items that will Bind any item to your Account and another cheaper one that Binds it to your Character -- which will remove durability, making it permanent, yet bound so it is no longer part of the economy.
  • celticgamer0celticgamer0 Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    anharmon wrote: »
    I don't actually know why BoP exists. If you don't want it sold on the AH, why can't I at least give to another char of mine? I've worked for it, I've done all the grinding/whatever necessary for it, it's just on the wrong char.

    Not sure how things stand on what "should" be BtA and what should be BoE. I'd guess that we're leaning on the side of too much BoP and not enough BoE, but whatever. I'd rather just have BoP turned into BtA first.

    I am just addressing the fact of BoP. I do agree with the fact that if you put in the effort then at least make the rewards BtA. Many of us, myself included, have many toons and not enough time to grind them all. To make BoP BtA would stop a lot of headaches.
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    At a minimum BoA for all event items with them becoming bound when equipped is a nice solution, which I can't really see being able to be abused.
  • hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    BOA or riot.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
  • cheesegromitcheesegromit Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    More BoA, less (no) BoP. Make any changes retroactive as well.

    As a slight aside, I'd also like to see a sell/trade limit on BoE items. Mostly to curb market manipulation.
  • jorifice1jorifice1 Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I can live with things like the Dread Ring Salvage Bait items being BoP. They drop readily enough. But those ultra-rare Icewind Dale Drops? For the love of Gygax make them BoA. I get why they are not Boe. I really do. It makes sense, in its own way. It should help, in the Long Run, keep professional Item Farmers from completely taking over all of the decent HE's and locking everyone else out by virtue of killing everything so fast that no one else can get a shot. But if I've done 100 HE's and gotten the Main Hand for every Class BUT mine, then I should be able to send them to my Alts rather than just Salvage them.
    Its the Campaign Progression and the Boons that keep me in a Module, NOT the obsessive Dragon Molesting that is going on these days.

    'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
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  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    As someone who plays multiple classes and chars I say throw away BoP completely. Elk Tribe gear is the perfect example why this is just a horrible, horrible approach. It takes long enough to get the stuff on one character, let alone on five or six or whatever. Plus, it wouldn't break the progression, you simply wouldn't waste so much time.
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    zebular wrote: »

    Alas, #2 would only be prudent if they bring in item decay, meaning over the course of its use, non-Bound items would suffer durability loss and eventual destruction if not repaired. Make each repair loose some durability so eventually, the more an item is repaired, the less "shelf-life" it will have.

    Item decay would be a death sentence if loot drops arnt also adjusted dramatically. RNG never smiles on everyone. There are many people who have struggled for months to win a Black Ice main hand, or a set of gloves. They very thought of taking that away from such people is the stuff that can cause riots. And how would you deal with items that need to be refined? Some rare artifact, that might even be a rare lockbox item that is no longer available. That someone has invested millions of AD into to refine. Only to make a temporary item that will eventually go away and expire?

    People lost flower petals and darn near went berzerk. You take away their gear, those rare random hard to get drops and priceless artifacts and you will kill any reason for people to keep playing.
  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    sockmunkey wrote: »
    Item decay would be a death sentence if loot drops arnt also adjusted dramatically. RNG never smiles on everyone. There are many people who have struggled for months to win a Black Ice main hand, or a set of gloves. They very thought of taking that away from such people is the stuff that can cause riots.
    Not really. There are so many drops that never see the market because they are Bound on Pickup. Imagine being able to sell or trade all those set pieces and other bound gear from Delves that you ran, in which you got pieces that you already had or didn't want and instead Salvaged them because they were bound to you. Now imagine hundreds of thousands of other players being able to now sell or trade those items too, instead of also salvaging them.


    sockmunkey wrote: »
    And how would you deal with items that need to be refined? Some rare artifact, that might even be a rare lockbox item that is no longer available. That someone has invested millions of AD into to refine. Only to make a temporary item that will eventually go away and expire?

    People lost flower petals and darn near went berzerk. You take away their gear, those rare random hard to get drops and priceless artifacts and you will kill any reason for people to keep playing.
    Super rare items are where the suggestion of a Zen item that binds items to you comes into play, removing durability.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You know I've been thinking about this poll since I saw it a few hours ago. My thoughts aren't going to be popular but I picked other. I think the best thing would be going to a D3 like system where you make every single thing either BtCoA or BtAoA depending on the item and get rid of the AH and Trade. Thinking about my history playing mmo's 90% of all exploits that I can remember have had to do with the economy of whatever game it was. Gamers can't be trusted to have trading without trying to break it, so it should be removed from us. This will also get rid of RMT trading as they'll have nothing to trade and RMT will no longer be used for money laundering by things like organised crime.
  • valwrynvalwryn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,620 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    You know I've been thinking about this poll since I saw it a few hours ago. My thoughts aren't going to be popular but I picked other. I think the best thing would be going to a D3 like system where you make every single thing either BtCoA or BtAoA depending on the item and get rid of the AH and Trade. Thinking about my history playing mmo's 90% of all exploits that I can remember have had to do with the economy of whatever game it was. Gamers can't be trusted to have trading without trying to break it, so it should be removed from us. This will also get rid of RMT trading as they'll have nothing to trade and RMT will no longer be used for money laundering by things like organised crime.

    He's a witch....burn him..BURN HIM!!!

    I'm all for a decaying of gear if they are not completely destroyed. They only lose their stats as the durability lowers until repaired. This will put all that gold I'm accumulating to good use. ;)
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    zebular wrote: »
    Not really. There are so many drops that never see the market because they are Bound on Pickup. Imagine being able to sell or trade all those Delves you ran that you got pieces you already had or didn't want and instead Salvaged them because they were bound to you. Now imagine hundreds of thousands of other players being able to now sell or trade those items too, instead of also salvaging them.

    Super rare items are where the suggestion of a Zen item that binds items to you comes into play, removing durability.

    You're assuming there will be enough supply to justify disposable items. I disagree, I have zero interest in black ice items. One, for the general rarity of them. And two, because their use is a constant drain similar to item decay. And at least those items never get destroyed. So there is at least one player refusing to feed the market.

    Right now there are people willing to grind hundreds of HEs in the hope for a rare drop. And feel lucky if they get one in those hundreds of attempts. I expect that number would drop to near nil if the drops were temporary. You simply wont have the people willing to trade their time for temporary items. And without the people feeding that market there will be nothing for anyone to buy.

    Item decay can really only work, if the drops are plentiful or easy enough that the time invested isnt seen as a waste. As it currently stands the rare drops here are truly rare and the RNG is far more punishing then it needs to be. Adding decay, that removes items, on top of that would just be insulting.
  • prancerhoodprancerhood Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    BoA would be the fairest option that would make the majority of players happy.
    What did the devs say in that recent interview about events?

    Q: What’s most important to keep in mind when designing an event for Neverwinter?
    A: The players. It wouldn’t be worth making an event they didn’t like.
    (source)

    Well the players would be pretty gosh darn happy if you finally abolished BoP on many of the items that you can obtain freely by grinding.
    Why shouldn't I be able to send my obtained gear to my other characters? I won it, the gear is mine and I should be able to send it around my account as much as I god **** please.
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    What I dont get is: They are doing this BtA thing gradually, but not entirely. The last thing they changed from BoP to BtA were the IWD transmutes, why stop there? It's like they know it makes sense, but it takes so **** looooong.
  • cheesegromitcheesegromit Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    On the topic of item decay, we essentially have that with Black Ice gear, just in reverse for a more positive psychological spin. I see no reason why that style couldn't apply to more things. It could make the grind less about obtaining the gear and more about keeping it charged.
    charononus wrote: »
    Thinking about my history playing mmo's 90% of all exploits that I can remember have had to do with the economy of whatever game it was. Gamers can't be trusted to have trading without trying to break it ...

    I've not delved into the economic side of any other MMo as much as I have in Neverwinter. Neverwinter represents the most exploited MMO I've ever played, probably as a result of ignorance more than anything else though. It's a real shame if this is common.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    valwryn wrote: »
    He's a witch....burn him..BURN HIM!!!
    I'd put myself more in the Rabbit of Caerbannog category than witch category, I've got a vicious streak a mile wide.
  • nativejoenativejoe Member Posts: 40
    edited September 2014
    zebular wrote: »
    In my opinion, do away with Binding except for Zen and Promotional items.

    1) Make all Zen and Promotional items Bind to Account.
    2) All other items in the game should not bind, allowing them to be sold or traded.

    Alas, #2 would only be prudent if they bring in item decay, meaning over the course of its use, non-Bound items would suffer durability loss and eventual destruction if not repaired. Make each repair loose some durability so eventually, the more an item is repaired, the less "shelf-life" it will have.

    Then, introduce a Zen items that will Bind any item to your Account and another cheaper one that Binds it to your Character -- which will remove durability, making it permanent, yet bound so it is no longer part of the economy.

    you sir, are pure chaotic evil o.o
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    On the topic of item decay, we essentially have that with Black Ice gear, just in reverse for a more positive psychological spin. I see no reason why that style couldn't apply to more things. It could make the grind less about obtaining the gear and more about keeping it charged.



    I've not delved into the economic side of any other MMo as much as I have in Neverwinter. Neverwinter represents the most exploited MMO I've ever played, probably as a result of ignorance more than anything else though. It's a real shame if this is common.

    Some have more some have less. Thing is if I was to categorize every exploit I've ever seen in the past 10 ish years it would be

    90% Economic
    9% Immunity to Bosses
    1% Other
  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    nativejoe wrote: »
    you sir, are pure chaotic evil o.o
    Chaotic? Nah. Lawful? Perhaps. Evil? Nah, I didn't go with the optional alignment rule in 4th edition.
    *the old mage grins wildly*
  • chaoscourtesanchaoscourtesan Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'm not interested in playing a 'batteries not included' game (Decay.)

    I already ignore IWD, because of that. Not even trying for the boons. I'm also not interested in an MMO where I can't buy and sell on the AH. I'll go back to playing offline single-player or FPS games before I waste time in that sort of world.

    Some things should be bound, only to make it so that there is a reason to play harder content. There should be a salvage option for ALL bound items, too. If I retire a pet, I should be able to sell or trade-in its 'contract.' To an NPC, at least.

    I especially don't want to re-charge my stuff. The game is already more time consuming than balancing my real life books and managing my meat-world job.
    Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
    Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
  • ulvielulviel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 741 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'm not interested in playing a 'batteries not included' game (Decay.)

    I already ignore IWD, because of that. Not even trying for the boons. I'm also not interested in an MMO where I can't buy and sell on the AH. I'll go back to playing offline single-player or FPS games before I waste time in that sort of world.

    These are exactly my thoughts put into words.
  • geeq5geeq5 Member Posts: 223 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'm not interested in playing a 'batteries not included' game (Decay.)

    I already ignore IWD, because of that. Not even trying for the boons.

    And here i thought i was the only one who completly ignored IWD and all it contents after a week of doing them.
    And i honestly doubt im ever going to do it again, not even for the boons.
  • oldbaldyoneoldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Players are going to want everything BOA or just unbound, because they value their time and want to do things as little as possible to get to the end result. Players don't want to run dungeons 50 times, but if there is a worthwhile goal at the end, they will. Usually, that goal is gear, and its gear that is only available by doing a specific task (usually running a dungeon).

    Developers want you to have to do things as many times as possible, and to spend as much time in the game as possible. They value you taking your time away. If you have to run things 50 times, that's great, because that is more time they have to make more content to keep you more addicted.Making items BoA or unbound completely defeats this purpose - players get equipment easier, they do dungeons less, they get bored faster, they are less likely to spend money.

    You also have to note that bound items decay - they leave with players who quit, they leave when characters are deleted, banned, etc. If they are never bound, or BoA, they will be less likely to actually leave the world. Endless supply of unbound items would crash teh economy. All items BoA would have a less effect, but still they WANT you to run things repeatedly - if you can outfit all characters potentially with each run, thats less time you are playing.

    Could be interesting to see what happens, but we are litterally taling about taking money out of Cryptics pockets.

    Possible compromise - sell a Zen item that removes the bind or binds the item to Acct instead of character...everyone wins.
  • cynogeniccynogenic Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    zebular wrote: »
    In my opinion, do away with Binding except for Zen and Promotional items.

    1) Make all Zen and Promotional items Bind to Account.
    2) All other items in the game should not bind, allowing them to be sold or traded.

    Alas, #2 would only be prudent if they bring in item decay, meaning over the course of its use, non-Bound items would suffer durability loss and eventual destruction if not repaired. Make each repair loose some durability so eventually, the more an item is repaired, the less "shelf-life" it will have.

    Then, introduce a Zen items that will Bind any item to your Account and another cheaper one that Binds it to your Character -- which will remove durability, making it permanent, yet bound so it is no longer part of the economy.

    Oh goodness no. Especially the part of introducing "zen items" just to get rid of the decay. I'm not a fan of item decay and I definitely think it wouldn't be good here. In my opinion item decay is just something to "nerf" (I see item decay as a nerf) something that is already fine just so something else can profit off of it. For example, hurt A so B or C can make $$ off it's pain. Instead of finding other means that doesn't interfere (if this makes any sense...). As for a kind of gameplay, time is precious and this item decay deducts precious time on top of time that is already wasted trying to get the item itself. Now if this was an issue to get more people buy zen stuff, then might as well introduce a high-demand zen item of some sort that doesn't feel like the players are forced to buy because their item will wither away.
    Someone said of introducing a zen item that will either "un-bind" BoPs or turn BoP into BoAs which I think is a great example and idea.
  • thestaggythestaggy Member Posts: 1,102 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    BoP and introduce an unbinding token that can be used as an AD sink. Tokens can be scaled. As an example, jewellery comes in 4 ''levels''; Exorcist, Minor-Grand Exorcist, Grand Exorcist, Ancient Excorcist, so the tokens should be leveled as well. T1 and T2 gear can fall into the 3rd and 4th token levels with Grand and Ancient Jewellery.

    CN, VT, MC and LoL (Lair of Lostmauth) should all drop high-end BOE equipment as a reward.
    PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
  • crixus8000crixus8000 Member Posts: 1,205 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Nothing in the game should be Bound to character -.- the amount of times I pick up an epic item for one of my other chars but cant send it over because its bound to me, really annoys me. EVERYTHING that is bound to character should be bound to account.
    Crixus - PVP GF
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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