So, I have been pretty much against getting rid of the leaderboard from the start, but I did have an interesting situation come up last night that made me re-think my position. I was in a Domination match with a few of my guild mates and one random player. The group we were up against was pretty evenly matched with us, but there came a point where it was clear that the scales were tipping on our side. We had two bases covered and were fighting at the middle point which ended up in a four on one against one of the other team's HRs. In the middle of the fight, he disappeared. Clearly disconnected. His whole team was gone within a few seconds after that.
The thing is, that the HR held the current number one ranking on the leaderboards (or at least did last night). While correlation does not necessarily imply causation, it's not hard to imagine a scenario in which that team was pre-made, saw that they were going to lose, and disconnected en masse in order to avoid taking the loss. I realize that disabling the leaderboard would probably not change this kind of behavior, but if a person couldn't see that they were going to lose their ranking, they might not bail out of a fight just to protect their stats.
Perhaps the leaderboard should be replaced so that it doesn't rank you in total against all other players, but instead ranks you in categories. Most kills, most assists, most points captured/defended, etc. I'm just spit balling, but taking away visibility on an overall ranking might have changed that fight quite dramatically last night.
Yep, this is the secret on how not to drop (much). You wonder why most people on the first page stay there, when the rest of us drop even if we win. By DCing, you don't count it as a loss, and you keep your fancy position.
I want to know, is there a reason disconnecting does not count as a loss? As far as I can tell, DCing in other games is considered your loss just to discourage this kind of behavior.
As I've already mentioned multiple times, I like the idea of a leaderboard. Just reset it every few months or something and I'd be happy
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doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
I want a game lobby where you can choose ur opponents. God would that be awsome! Fight with and against the people YOU want. And where you dont have to wait and grind 10 matches to find one worth playing.
I have no idea how hard this would be to implement but I actually think that is a good idea. Put up one of those job type boards in the PVP inn (sorry forget its name) and see if any of the people hanging out in there want to fight lol. The only problem is how many PVP players sit in there or would sit in a chat room window waiting for a match? I have issues sitting around waiting on guildies to make up their minds what they are going to do before I start running off doing my own thing after a bit let alone sitting around waiting for someone i'd want to actually pvp with.
I have not seen any numbers but at this point I can only assume that out of the thousands of players there maybe only 1 - 5% of them into PVP at the level people want to play with and with the different time zones and such I suspect you won't find matches all that often with people you want to do pvp against ...
My opinion is that people need to really accept the fact that this is an RPG MMO which means it is a PVE game, it throws pvp in for fun which frankly would have been better suited to just having an "initiate duel" system or maybe a flag yourself for pvp system or just have a separate PVP server where every map is PVP except for places like the entry camps on each map and of course PE.
I often wonder what this game would be like if that were the case, I think you would quickly find that if this game were true OW PVP you would find that there are in fact only 3 playable classes (TR GWF and HR now that PF is out) and probably only 1 playable race. Given how players interact in this game i'd say this game would degenerate quickly into nothing more than bully running people out of their sand box.
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doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
edited August 2014
I think the leaderboard needs to be reworked totally. It should be logged by class, so that you can see how you stand vs. others of your class. The one leaderboard to rule it all is well pointless since all it shows is how dominating 3 classes are. But if you split the leaderboard up to show how people of a class faired in PVP vs. others of their own class then I think people would have a better view.
Really who wants to look at a leader board for PVP when they play a GF or DC to see themselves on page 3000? Now take that same situation and you had those same classes looking at leaderboards that showed only how other GF's were doing then they might feel a sense of pride of being one of the better PVP GF's out there.
Make sense to anyone?
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doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
edited August 2014
Oh one more thing, why is there a PVP leaderboard? Is it or is it not a "team effort"? Why should the leaderboard reflect individual stats when this is clearly a team orientated scenario?
It seems this is actually encouraging people to focus on things that are NOT team friendly goals. The goals are to score points not kills, if you want kills go play a FPS.
Oh one more thing, why is there a PVP leaderboard? Is it or is it not a "team effort"? Why should the leaderboard reflect individual stats when this is clearly a team orientated scenario?
It seems this is actually encouraging people to focus on things that are NOT team friendly goals. The goals are to score points not kills, if you want kills go play a FPS.
You're right. No matter what, any leaderboard that tries to extrapolate individual scores from team matches is going to be fundamentally flawed. It would be pretty interesting to layer in your average gear score for matches you were in on that leaderboard. I wonder how many of the players on the first 10 pages would have gear scores under the 10K that most people set as the baseline for getting into "real" PvP.
I think the leaderboard needs to be reworked totally. It should be logged by class, so that you can see how you stand vs. others of your class. The one leaderboard to rule it all is well pointless since all it shows is how dominating 3 classes are. But if you split the leaderboard up to show how people of a class faired in PVP vs. others of their own class then I think people would have a better view.
Really who wants to look at a leader board for PVP when they play a GF or DC to see themselves on page 3000? Now take that same situation and you had those same classes looking at leaderboards that showed only how other GF's were doing then they might feel a sense of pride of being one of the better PVP GF's out there.
The leaderboard CLEARLY shows that 3 classes are way out of hand in a PvP environment. So what YOU should be saying is "Why haven't the Devs fixed this? WHY are the classes so unbalanced? WHY aren't the DEVS using this invaluable tool to FIX the class imbalance?"
More on how that fixing should be done and what I think should be done for CW's in particular in my other posts.
I agree that there should be an ADDITION of an in class standing category, but I think most PvPers want to see how they stack up vs EVERYONE, not just their fellow CW's, TR's, GWF's etc. I know I do. And again, this leaderboard CLEARLY SHOWS that overall class balance DOES NOT EXIST. Everyone knows it. So why is it that more people are NOT making a big deal about it?
The leaderboard CLEARLY shows that 3 classes are way out of hand in a PvP environment.
Actually, all it shows is the most popular classes among premades. Since you have no idea of the relative skill level, gear score, or part composition of the players you can't seay anything else with certainty.
So why is it that more people are NOT making a big deal about it?
Because most people in this game don't PvP. And among PvPers very few are truly interested in class balance. The majority just want their class to be OP so they can win all the time.
Actually, all it shows is the most popular classes among premades. Since you have no idea of the relative skill level, gear score, or part composition of the players you can't seay anything else with certainty.
Because most people in this game don't PvP. And among PvPers very few are truly interested in class balance. The majority just want their class to be OP so they can win all the time.
And why are those classes SO popular? Skill level is NOT as important as Gear Score and build, and if you're a PvPer, you know that. AND YES, you can say with certainty that certain classes are OverPowered. Because otherwise why aren't the "weak" classes, the ones not well represented in PvP, especially in the top 200 players, why aren't THEY dominating the leaderboard? Why aren't all those top players using THOSE "weak" classes to kill kill kill and get them into the top of the leaderboard?
Simple. Because they CAN NOT DO SO. Basic logic. Learn it.
THREE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED AND EIGHTY-EIGHT. That's how many pages are currently on the leaderboard. That's almost Seventy-Four Thousand toons. Mind you, I'm certain that many people, like myself, play multiple toons in PvP. Some may not, having fallen in love w/ a particular class. But say an average of four toons a player, like say myself. That is STILL over EIGHTEEN THOUSAND different players. Which is a crowd by any standard.
And finally, more people WOULD PLAY PvP if classes were more balanced. It wouldn't be limited to a 'few' gankers and a bunch of red shirts. BALANCED CLASSES would encourage EVERYONE to try and play PvP, so it would be a richer community.
"Shakes head." In so many games people complain about PvP, and most cases the devs do nothing to address the issues being voiced. Which eventually "kills" PvP in said game, and has in the past been the beginning of the end for said game as well.
I hope that the DEVS wake up and take some of my and other people's suggestions and arguments to heart, and DO SOMETHING. I'm an Old D&Der... and sometimes this game makes me want to cry.
so part of the algorithm can penalize you if there is a wide range in rank and you win. that still doesn't falsify what gentlemancrush said. there's still an algorithm and math at play here that nobody knows but the devs. even if someone discovered at some point how to show the uncertainty rank or some other number, it doesn't tell you much about how the leader board works.
if the focus here is to change the way the leader board works, rather than focus only on how much it doesn't work or how much you don't like it, you have to tell the devs what changes you'd like to see. there are always assumptions about how these things work or how they are broken and that may be based on a lot of personal experience but it still is based on assumption and not fact. feedback in threads like this would go a long way if they were more constructive. that's not to say that there isn't any constructive feedback here. but if you approach the architect about how the garage design is faulty without having any knowledge of the actual design itself, chances are you'll just get ignored. :]
Make it impossible to drop rank by winning. I am talking about the hidden ELO rank. It should NOT go down when you win. It should probably stay the same if the team you won against is much lower than you ion average, but do NOT make it decrease.
Thank you.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
if the focus here is to change the way the leader board works, rather than focus only on how much it doesn't work or how much you don't like it, you have to tell the devs what changes you'd like to see. there are always assumptions about how these things work or how they are broken and that may be based on a lot of personal experience but it still is based on assumption and not fact. feedback in threads like this would go a long way if they were more constructive. that's not to say that there isn't any constructive feedback here. but if you approach the architect about how the garage design is faulty without having any knowledge of the actual design itself, chances are you'll just get ignored. :]
There were already a couple of suggestions. My personal favorite one is:
Step 1: Determine the GS of the player upon joining a domination match. Make equip/unequip of gear during domination impossible. Alternatively: Determine the average GS of a player during combat in domination matches.
Step 2: Based on the GS of the player, put him in a bracket of similar geared players. Show him in which bracket he is and his position in the waiting queue.
Step 3: Based on a) the outcome of the match (he wins / he loses) and b) his position in his own team alone (so not his position in overal ranks (team and opponents) what you see when you press 'x') give him a ranking.
Step 4: Display his ranking overal and in his GS bracket.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Make it impossible to drop rank by winning. I am talking about the hidden ELO rank. It should NOT go down when you win. It should probably stay the same if the team you won against is much lower than you ion average, but do NOT make it decrease.
Thank you.
Well, it may happen that if player x play a premade and stomps a pug, and i play a pug vs pug balanced and beat a higher ranked team, i get more points and itresults in x losing ranking.
Gear score si not a way for matchmaking. I got in a team with a 16k GS gwf. Be was full of himself but in combat i always ended up alone cause he was always dead. Then i looked at him... he was a 25k hp destroyer pve build in corrupted bi armor... yet he only looked at gs and thought he was a pvp beast.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Gear score si not a way for matchmaking. I got in a team with a 16k GS gwf. Be was full of himself but in combat i always ended up alone cause he was always dead. Then i looked at him... he was a 25k hp destroyer pve build in corrupted bi armor... yet he only looked at gs and thought he was a pvp beast.
And yet this is the matchmaking me and many others want to see: A matchmaking with respect to gearscore. Because this is the only way to distinguish in a satisfying way between skill and gear and obtain a proper leaderboard of the best skilled players.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
And yet this is the matchmaking me and many others want to see: A matchmaking with respect to gearscore. Because this is the only way to distinguish in a satisfying way between skill and gear and obtain a proper leaderboard of the best skilled players.
The problem here is that GS is too easy to manipulate, and also does not include many stat/boon based factors which influence performance in combat. You'd have to overhaul the GS system AND ban gear swapping once you queue for a match. That would impact legit players who have genuine reasons to swap gear during a match to adapt to the opposition.
Make it impossible to drop rank by winning. I am talking about the hidden ELO rank. It should NOT go down when you win. It should probably stay the same if the team you won against is much lower than you ion average, but do NOT make it decrease.
Thank you.
The part of the algorithm which results in dropping rank after a win is the part that also allows for rapid climbing during a win streak. Removing the uncertainty factor would result in a much less dynamic scoreboard and allow for more rank manipulation.
The problem here is that GS is too easy to manipulate, and also does not include many stat/boon based factors which influence performance in combat. You'd have to overhaul the GS system AND ban gear swapping once you queue for a match. That would impact legit players who have genuine reasons to swap gear during a match to adapt to the opposition.
No manipulation can be done if you dont allow gear swap in domination matches. There is really no inherent problem of this method. All what requires is the will to do it.
Almost all boons contribute to your gearscore as well. And those who are not contributing produce relatively minor advantages within the tolerance range of a single GS bracket and are therefore not very important.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
No manipulation can be done if you dont allow gear swap in domination matches. There is really no inherent problem of this method. All what requires is the will to do it.
There are legitimate reasons to swap gear during a match. Carrying two weapons with different enchants for instance. A blanket ban on gear swapping would penalise legitimate play.
Make it impossible to drop rank by winning. I am talking about the hidden ELO rank. It should NOT go down when you win. It should probably stay the same if the team you won against is much lower than you ion average, but do NOT make it decrease.
Thank you.
here's a scenario.
a small group of players are queued for pvp during non-peak hours and the matchmaker is throwing all of these players into a match because they've already waited 3-5 minutes which is a long time for some. the teams are as equal as possible but there are some fresh level 60s that aren't in high level gear. maybe they have rank 5s but no high end anything.
here's where it gets hairy. if the algorithm includes who you attack individually and you go after the easy guys and kill them 20 times, wouldn't that be a strike against you as opposed to having no repercussions at all or to be rewarded for such actions? there is much that can attribute to how your elo rank is changed after a match but we do not know how or what that is. but we do know this: there is an algorithm and i think it's safe to say that it includes more than one or two numbers.
There are legitimate reasons to swap gear during a match. Carrying two weapons with different enchants for instance. A blanket ban on gear swapping would penalise legitimate play.
gear swapping to bypass an enchantment cooldown is not what i'd consider legitimate play. if there was any other reason to swap gear then allowing it with the CD clock still running would be fair. or it would make more sense to not allow a change just like you can't swap artifacts when one is in cool down.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There are legitimate reasons to swap gear during a match. Carrying two weapons with different enchants for instance. A blanket ban on gear swapping would penalise legitimate play.
Well, you simply would have to consider your equipment before you join a pvp match to make a versatile setup for your char. Since everyone else would not be able to swap gear, it would not produce unfair advantages.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
The problem here is that GS is too easy to manipulate, and also does not include many stat/boon based factors which influence performance in combat. You'd have to overhaul the GS system AND ban gear swapping once you queue for a match. That would impact legit players who have genuine reasons to swap gear during a match to adapt to the opposition.
WOW. It must be nice to have TWO full sets of armor, complete with maxed enhancements and maxed enchantments. I mean, that's what we're talking about here, right?
Or maybe we're implying that someone would deliberately go out, get a complete set of blue armor, have their REAL armor (tier 3, level 7 plus enchants, greater or better enhances etc ) set aside just so they could get queued w/ a bunch of noobs?
Would PvPers do that? Hmmmmmm. Yep. Definitely. No question. SOOOO... ban gear switching, IF we go to a GS queuing system. Otherwise people WILL game the system. And honestly, I can NOT think of ANY LEGITIMATE reason that someone would change gear in a match. If you have a greater soulforged and a greater vorpal, why bother? Unless you have a perfect of said same, and then my question would be why in the heck didn't you start the game w/ those?
Perhaps you'd like to give an example of such a LEGITIMATE REASON? I'm a PvPer.. I don't go into a match w/o my best gear on my body. My ONLY gear, if we're going to be honest. Spare armor would take up space that I use in PvE and I don't spend cash on NW... which is why my CW is only 12.7 currently.
And like someone else pointed out, sharandar and dread boons ARE reflected directly in the GS. Ditto artifacts. So that should be NO problem whatsoever.
Dude, quit throwing out these specious arguments. Wait.. don't. I'm having too much fun refuting them!
gear swapping to bypass an enchantment cooldown is not what i'd consider legitimate play. if there was any other reason to swap gear then allowing it with the CD clock still running would be fair. or it would make more sense to not allow a change just like you can't swap artifacts when one is in cool down.
That's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about having, for example, two main hands with different weapon enchantments for use with different encounter loadouts to counter different team compositions. I'm not rich enough to have such a setup but I know of players that do. It's hardly game-breaking to have this disabled but it does remove an element of strategy from Domination.
Edit: Here's another that I have taken advantage of. Swapping my active Artefact. Not to bypass cooldown but to use one with a combat effect while in combat and a healing effect while out of combat. This doesn't bypass cooldowns so is completely legitimate.
WOW. It must be nice to have TWO full sets of armor, complete with maxed enhancements and maxed enchantments. I mean, that's what we're talking about here, right?
Or maybe we're implying that someone would deliberately go out, get a complete set of blue armor, have their REAL armor (tier 3, level 7 plus enchants, greater or better enhances etc ) set aside just so they could get queued w/ a bunch of noobs?
Would PvPers do that? Hmmmmmm. Yep. Definitely. No question. SOOOO... ban gear switching, IF we go to a GS queuing system. Otherwise people WILL game the system. And honestly, I can NOT think of ANY LEGITIMATE reason that someone would change gear in a match. If you have a greater soulforged and a greater vorpal, why bother? Unless you have a perfect of said same, and then my question would be why in the heck didn't you start the game w/ those?
Perhaps you'd like to give an example of such a LEGITIMATE REASON? I'm a PvPer.. I don't go into a match w/o my best gear on my body. My ONLY gear, if we're going to be honest. Spare armor would take up space that I use in PvE and I don't spend cash on NW... which is why my CW is only 12.7 currently.
And like someone else pointed out, sharandar and dread boons ARE reflected directly in the GS. Ditto artifacts. So that should be NO problem whatsoever.
Dude, quit throwing out these specious arguments. Wait.. don't. I'm having too much fun refuting them!
There's really no reason to get excitable, 'dude'. For the record I have a single set of gear with single lesser enchantments in the 4 toons I play regularly so this wouldn't affect me at all. But some of us aren't focussed only on things that benefit us directly.
See my reply to Melodywhr above. This would remove an element of strategy from the game which would be a shame IMO.
Well, you simply would have to consider your equipment before you join a pvp match to make a versatile setup for your char. Since everyone else would not be able to swap gear, it would not produce unfair advantages.
I'm not suggesting it would create unfair advantages. I'm saying that it narrows options for strategic play and puts further restrictions on viable builds. Which would be a shame IMO.
The leaderboard should be a team rating. Not single players in a team oriented game. It must be a pain correcting the algorithm that does this.
You register a 5v5 team that can have, lets say, up to 8 members. All of these members are part of a team that starts out with 1200 elo rating. As this team wins and loses matches, their elo increases and reduces and this is show on the leaderboard. You can even say registering a team would require 100k AD ( wow ad sink )
With a team leaderboard and not single player, it would be much more accurate and the algorithm for programming it would be much much easier.
But ofc with this you would have to have a separate que for the solo/unrated team players aswell, but this time without any elo or leaderboard.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm not suggesting it would create unfair advantages. I'm saying that it narrows options for strategic play and puts further restrictions on viable builds. Which would be a shame IMO.
You put a very small sacrifice which almost no one considers relevant at all into relation of what you would gain by implementing a GS matchmaking for the entire playerbase.
The leaderboard should be a team rating. Not single players in a team oriented game. It must be a pain correcting the algorithm that does this.
I agree; the Elo system is very clear for single players or two partys. There is no straightforward method to my knowledge for this mixture of party-to-individual rating. GS matchmaking is IMO the only reliable way to go.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
You put a very small sacrifice which almost no one considers relevant at all into relation of what you would gain by implementing a GS matchmaking for the entire playerbase.
I raised a potential downside as an item for discussion. That's what forums are for, is it not? And I'm not sure we have sufficient sample size to confidently state that 'almost no-one' considers it relevant. But it would be fine if that turns out to be the case. As mentioned, disabling gear change after queueing wouldn't have a big affect on me personally so I have no dog in this fight.
There's really no reason to get excitable, 'dude'. For the record I have a single set of gear with single lesser enchantments in the 4 toons I play regularly so this wouldn't affect me at all. But some of us aren't focussed only on things that benefit us directly.
See my reply to Melodywhr above. This would remove an element of strategy from the game which would be a shame IMO.
Hmm. I read both of your posts. Here's the problem... referring back to my post and vorpral/soulforged Enhancements. If I were running renegade, instead of my own build for my CW, I'd want my max enhancement weapons / gear up, esp since vorpral is all about the critical.
So again.. your argument is specious. I simply CANNOT conceive of any LEGITIMATE reason that I, or anyone else, would queue for PvP w/o our maxed gear. Enemy team content is more or less irrelevant. You should be playing YOUR build, your toon. And have gear to maximize it, ideally.
And from my experience, you can always expect to see at least one TR and HR on the opposing team. So those being an assured constant, as a CW you need to be geared and spec'd as best you can to deal w/ them.
As you have indirectly pointed out, Enhancements are expensive. Especially when ya start talking Greater or Perfect levels. By my math you need 8 Coalescent Wards just to make ONE greater enhancement of any kind. That's 8000 zen w/o a sale. Or Eighty bucks. FOR ONE. So that's $170 for ONE perfect enhancement. Or one heck of a lot of grinding. Me, I have ONE lesser and one normal enhancement. TOTAL. After a year's casual play. Ick.
Point of all this chat is to reinforce the Unlikelihood of ANYONE having multiple sets of perfect or even greater enhancements in weapon sets specifically to defeat GWF's or TR's etc. It's nonsense. You go research the boards here, find out what the best combo for your build/class is, and you start working on it.
Same goes for enchantments, my CW is about level seven across the board. Not looking forward to going to level eight. Much grinding. Double ICK.
Quite bluntly, the ONLY reason that comes to MY mind for gear switching in PvP is CHEATING. To get yourself a lower GS game and then AH HA, change into superkiller once you're in.
Comments
Yep, this is the secret on how not to drop (much). You wonder why most people on the first page stay there, when the rest of us drop even if we win. By DCing, you don't count it as a loss, and you keep your fancy position.
The Leaderboard is toxic. I say get rid of it.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
As I've already mentioned multiple times, I like the idea of a leaderboard. Just reset it every few months or something and I'd be happy
I have no idea how hard this would be to implement but I actually think that is a good idea. Put up one of those job type boards in the PVP inn (sorry forget its name) and see if any of the people hanging out in there want to fight lol. The only problem is how many PVP players sit in there or would sit in a chat room window waiting for a match? I have issues sitting around waiting on guildies to make up their minds what they are going to do before I start running off doing my own thing after a bit let alone sitting around waiting for someone i'd want to actually pvp with.
I have not seen any numbers but at this point I can only assume that out of the thousands of players there maybe only 1 - 5% of them into PVP at the level people want to play with and with the different time zones and such I suspect you won't find matches all that often with people you want to do pvp against ...
My opinion is that people need to really accept the fact that this is an RPG MMO which means it is a PVE game, it throws pvp in for fun which frankly would have been better suited to just having an "initiate duel" system or maybe a flag yourself for pvp system or just have a separate PVP server where every map is PVP except for places like the entry camps on each map and of course PE.
I often wonder what this game would be like if that were the case, I think you would quickly find that if this game were true OW PVP you would find that there are in fact only 3 playable classes (TR GWF and HR now that PF is out) and probably only 1 playable race. Given how players interact in this game i'd say this game would degenerate quickly into nothing more than bully running people out of their sand box.
Really who wants to look at a leader board for PVP when they play a GF or DC to see themselves on page 3000? Now take that same situation and you had those same classes looking at leaderboards that showed only how other GF's were doing then they might feel a sense of pride of being one of the better PVP GF's out there.
Make sense to anyone?
It seems this is actually encouraging people to focus on things that are NOT team friendly goals. The goals are to score points not kills, if you want kills go play a FPS.
You're right. No matter what, any leaderboard that tries to extrapolate individual scores from team matches is going to be fundamentally flawed. It would be pretty interesting to layer in your average gear score for matches you were in on that leaderboard. I wonder how many of the players on the first 10 pages would have gear scores under the 10K that most people set as the baseline for getting into "real" PvP.
Heya. The leaderboard is an excellent tool for just the reason you have stated. Read my posts in http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?706631-Cut-the-CC-out-of-pvp-This-is-getting-stupid/page2 I also posted a page or two earlier in this thread.
The leaderboard CLEARLY shows that 3 classes are way out of hand in a PvP environment. So what YOU should be saying is "Why haven't the Devs fixed this? WHY are the classes so unbalanced? WHY aren't the DEVS using this invaluable tool to FIX the class imbalance?"
More on how that fixing should be done and what I think should be done for CW's in particular in my other posts.
I agree that there should be an ADDITION of an in class standing category, but I think most PvPers want to see how they stack up vs EVERYONE, not just their fellow CW's, TR's, GWF's etc. I know I do. And again, this leaderboard CLEARLY SHOWS that overall class balance DOES NOT EXIST. Everyone knows it. So why is it that more people are NOT making a big deal about it?
Inquiring minds....
Because most people in this game don't PvP. And among PvPers very few are truly interested in class balance. The majority just want their class to be OP so they can win all the time.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
And why are those classes SO popular? Skill level is NOT as important as Gear Score and build, and if you're a PvPer, you know that. AND YES, you can say with certainty that certain classes are OverPowered. Because otherwise why aren't the "weak" classes, the ones not well represented in PvP, especially in the top 200 players, why aren't THEY dominating the leaderboard? Why aren't all those top players using THOSE "weak" classes to kill kill kill and get them into the top of the leaderboard?
Simple. Because they CAN NOT DO SO. Basic logic. Learn it.
THREE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED AND EIGHTY-EIGHT. That's how many pages are currently on the leaderboard. That's almost Seventy-Four Thousand toons. Mind you, I'm certain that many people, like myself, play multiple toons in PvP. Some may not, having fallen in love w/ a particular class. But say an average of four toons a player, like say myself. That is STILL over EIGHTEEN THOUSAND different players. Which is a crowd by any standard.
And finally, more people WOULD PLAY PvP if classes were more balanced. It wouldn't be limited to a 'few' gankers and a bunch of red shirts. BALANCED CLASSES would encourage EVERYONE to try and play PvP, so it would be a richer community.
"Shakes head." In so many games people complain about PvP, and most cases the devs do nothing to address the issues being voiced. Which eventually "kills" PvP in said game, and has in the past been the beginning of the end for said game as well.
I hope that the DEVS wake up and take some of my and other people's suggestions and arguments to heart, and DO SOMETHING. I'm an Old D&Der... and sometimes this game makes me want to cry.
if the focus here is to change the way the leader board works, rather than focus only on how much it doesn't work or how much you don't like it, you have to tell the devs what changes you'd like to see. there are always assumptions about how these things work or how they are broken and that may be based on a lot of personal experience but it still is based on assumption and not fact. feedback in threads like this would go a long way if they were more constructive. that's not to say that there isn't any constructive feedback here. but if you approach the architect about how the garage design is faulty without having any knowledge of the actual design itself, chances are you'll just get ignored. :]
Leaderboard Suggestion:
Make it impossible to drop rank by winning. I am talking about the hidden ELO rank. It should NOT go down when you win. It should probably stay the same if the team you won against is much lower than you ion average, but do NOT make it decrease.
Thank you.
There were already a couple of suggestions. My personal favorite one is:
Step 1: Determine the GS of the player upon joining a domination match. Make equip/unequip of gear during domination impossible. Alternatively: Determine the average GS of a player during combat in domination matches.
Step 2: Based on the GS of the player, put him in a bracket of similar geared players. Show him in which bracket he is and his position in the waiting queue.
Step 3: Based on a) the outcome of the match (he wins / he loses) and b) his position in his own team alone (so not his position in overal ranks (team and opponents) what you see when you press 'x') give him a ranking.
Step 4: Display his ranking overal and in his GS bracket.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Well, it may happen that if player x play a premade and stomps a pug, and i play a pug vs pug balanced and beat a higher ranked team, i get more points and itresults in x losing ranking.
Gear score si not a way for matchmaking. I got in a team with a 16k GS gwf. Be was full of himself but in combat i always ended up alone cause he was always dead. Then i looked at him... he was a 25k hp destroyer pve build in corrupted bi armor... yet he only looked at gs and thought he was a pvp beast.
And yet this is the matchmaking me and many others want to see: A matchmaking with respect to gearscore. Because this is the only way to distinguish in a satisfying way between skill and gear and obtain a proper leaderboard of the best skilled players.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
No manipulation can be done if you dont allow gear swap in domination matches. There is really no inherent problem of this method. All what requires is the will to do it.
Almost all boons contribute to your gearscore as well. And those who are not contributing produce relatively minor advantages within the tolerance range of a single GS bracket and are therefore not very important.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
here's a scenario.
a small group of players are queued for pvp during non-peak hours and the matchmaker is throwing all of these players into a match because they've already waited 3-5 minutes which is a long time for some. the teams are as equal as possible but there are some fresh level 60s that aren't in high level gear. maybe they have rank 5s but no high end anything.
here's where it gets hairy. if the algorithm includes who you attack individually and you go after the easy guys and kill them 20 times, wouldn't that be a strike against you as opposed to having no repercussions at all or to be rewarded for such actions? there is much that can attribute to how your elo rank is changed after a match but we do not know how or what that is. but we do know this: there is an algorithm and i think it's safe to say that it includes more than one or two numbers.
of course this is all speculative.
gear swapping to bypass an enchantment cooldown is not what i'd consider legitimate play. if there was any other reason to swap gear then allowing it with the CD clock still running would be fair. or it would make more sense to not allow a change just like you can't swap artifacts when one is in cool down.
Well, you simply would have to consider your equipment before you join a pvp match to make a versatile setup for your char. Since everyone else would not be able to swap gear, it would not produce unfair advantages.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
WOW. It must be nice to have TWO full sets of armor, complete with maxed enhancements and maxed enchantments. I mean, that's what we're talking about here, right?
Or maybe we're implying that someone would deliberately go out, get a complete set of blue armor, have their REAL armor (tier 3, level 7 plus enchants, greater or better enhances etc ) set aside just so they could get queued w/ a bunch of noobs?
Would PvPers do that? Hmmmmmm. Yep. Definitely. No question. SOOOO... ban gear switching, IF we go to a GS queuing system. Otherwise people WILL game the system. And honestly, I can NOT think of ANY LEGITIMATE reason that someone would change gear in a match. If you have a greater soulforged and a greater vorpal, why bother? Unless you have a perfect of said same, and then my question would be why in the heck didn't you start the game w/ those?
Perhaps you'd like to give an example of such a LEGITIMATE REASON? I'm a PvPer.. I don't go into a match w/o my best gear on my body. My ONLY gear, if we're going to be honest. Spare armor would take up space that I use in PvE and I don't spend cash on NW... which is why my CW is only 12.7 currently.
And like someone else pointed out, sharandar and dread boons ARE reflected directly in the GS. Ditto artifacts. So that should be NO problem whatsoever.
Dude, quit throwing out these specious arguments. Wait.. don't. I'm having too much fun refuting them!
Edit: Here's another that I have taken advantage of. Swapping my active Artefact. Not to bypass cooldown but to use one with a combat effect while in combat and a healing effect while out of combat. This doesn't bypass cooldowns so is completely legitimate.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
See my reply to Melodywhr above. This would remove an element of strategy from the game which would be a shame IMO.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
You register a 5v5 team that can have, lets say, up to 8 members. All of these members are part of a team that starts out with 1200 elo rating. As this team wins and loses matches, their elo increases and reduces and this is show on the leaderboard. You can even say registering a team would require 100k AD ( wow ad sink )
With a team leaderboard and not single player, it would be much more accurate and the algorithm for programming it would be much much easier.
But ofc with this you would have to have a separate que for the solo/unrated team players aswell, but this time without any elo or leaderboard.
You put a very small sacrifice which almost no one considers relevant at all into relation of what you would gain by implementing a GS matchmaking for the entire playerbase.
I agree; the Elo system is very clear for single players or two partys. There is no straightforward method to my knowledge for this mixture of party-to-individual rating. GS matchmaking is IMO the only reliable way to go.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Just ignore leaderboards, and go back to enjoying PvP match by match.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Hmm. I read both of your posts. Here's the problem... referring back to my post and vorpral/soulforged Enhancements. If I were running renegade, instead of my own build for my CW, I'd want my max enhancement weapons / gear up, esp since vorpral is all about the critical.
So again.. your argument is specious. I simply CANNOT conceive of any LEGITIMATE reason that I, or anyone else, would queue for PvP w/o our maxed gear. Enemy team content is more or less irrelevant. You should be playing YOUR build, your toon. And have gear to maximize it, ideally.
And from my experience, you can always expect to see at least one TR and HR on the opposing team. So those being an assured constant, as a CW you need to be geared and spec'd as best you can to deal w/ them.
As you have indirectly pointed out, Enhancements are expensive. Especially when ya start talking Greater or Perfect levels. By my math you need 8 Coalescent Wards just to make ONE greater enhancement of any kind. That's 8000 zen w/o a sale. Or Eighty bucks. FOR ONE. So that's $170 for ONE perfect enhancement. Or one heck of a lot of grinding. Me, I have ONE lesser and one normal enhancement. TOTAL. After a year's casual play. Ick.
Point of all this chat is to reinforce the Unlikelihood of ANYONE having multiple sets of perfect or even greater enhancements in weapon sets specifically to defeat GWF's or TR's etc. It's nonsense. You go research the boards here, find out what the best combo for your build/class is, and you start working on it.
Same goes for enchantments, my CW is about level seven across the board. Not looking forward to going to level eight. Much grinding. Double ICK.
Quite bluntly, the ONLY reason that comes to MY mind for gear switching in PvP is CHEATING. To get yourself a lower GS game and then AH HA, change into superkiller once you're in.
Nuff' said.