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  • ixalmarisixalmaris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    calvin1tag wrote: »
    Another poster in one of the other threads has stated this was around since mod 2 so one can only imagine the billions upon billions of exploited AD out there hidden and split on thousands of mule accounts. The damage is worse then caturday if that is true....

    That is in no way confirmed.
    It could be as that was when Resonators where added (I think). But only Cryptic knows how long it existed and maybe also can find out how long it has been used.

    It would be nice though if they made that information public, but I doubt it unless they do huge changes to the economy.
  • jennyavarieljennyavariel Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 167
    edited August 2014
    Resonators came out with the Feywild lockbox. It's entirely possible that the issue existed for most of a year. I believe that the few who are were caught hand in jar on Tuesday are just the tip of the AD mountain. AD obtained a year ago, and funneled into the AH, and the ZAX, and back out into circulation. It'd be impossible to clean it all up.

    This is the worst post Caturday issue. A few extra pets here and there, and stat points that can be removed are nothing compared to a few billion unplanned for AD injected into the system.
  • jennyavarieljennyavariel Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 167
    edited August 2014
    There is a solution. It's the white elephant in the room. Just, make a character, and *play the game*. Don't get hung up on the rush to BiS. Consider Lesser enchant, and some r7s to be the new ( obtainable ) BiS. It's plenty for PvE content.

    For those who view PvP as only reason to be here.... You're just going to have to get the best gear you can, and then be more skillful than your ( possibly better geared ) opposite numbers.

    Stay safe out there.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    For those who view PvP as only reason to be here.... You're just going to have to get the best gear you can, and then be more skillful than your ( possibly better geared ) opposite numbers.

    Stay safe out there.

    The issue does not only affect PvP players, although because they are competing agains other players, they are affected most. It also affects pure PvE players, as the AD glut pushes up prices in the AH, devaluing the AD currency and making things harder to obtain for non-cheating PvE players.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • ixalmarisixalmaris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I believe that the few who are were caught hand in jar on Tuesday are just the tip of the AD mountain.

    No one was actually caught as far as I know. Someone reported it and made a youtube video of it to pressure Cryptic to fix it.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    internal decisions are just that: internal.

    some people feel that announcing what is being done to people that violate the ToS is a positive move.

    in my opinion, it would give a false sense of security if they did provide action details. after all, this is a f2p game and new accounts can be created. it's just the nature of this business model. like botting and gold spam, there will always be an ongoing battle against exploiters regardless of the severity of the exploit.

    but the reality is that PWE will likely take action against those that violated the ToS whether they announce it or not. there are far more speculations going on about what happened and how much it affected the economy. of course people want to know details but perhaps PWE and Cryptic would rather focus on resolving the problem and moving towards the next module drop.

    personally, this doesn't affect me enough to care if PWE makes a statement or does another caturday bandaid. in my opinion, they're going to do what they think is better for the company.
  • jennyavarieljennyavariel Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 167
    edited August 2014
    A post ( in another locked threat ) referenced a goldseller site's report that many of their accounts had been banned. Presumably, they had a few low level mules cranking out AD for selling to people for cash.

    I'm actually less worried about goldsellers farming / generating AD than I am of the large ego epeen types that will decide, for fun, 'All Coal Wards will now cost 1 Million AD Each'.

    Such an individual would, using a large sum of AD obtained from 'somewhere', just buy up all Coal Wards selling for less than 1 million, and repost at 1 million each.

    That's a extreme example. There are other markets that would be more easily cornered, and with less visibility. Check the market for epic crafting resources. The tools are all well over 1M AD each. But, what if someone bought 'em all, and reposted for, say, 3x the current cost? That's a bit more plausible.

    If large sums of AD keep getting pumped into the game, and controlled by a few, what will these individuals do to get 'even richer' once the current holes are plugged? ( Find another hole, of course )

    I think a few of them will decide to go into more direct market manipulation than we've yet seen.
  • rollingonitrollingonit Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    internal decisions are just that: internal.

    some people feel that announcing what is being done to people that violate the ToS is a positive move.

    in my opinion, it would give a false sense of security if they did provide action details. after all, this is a f2p game and new accounts can be created. it's just the nature of this business model. like botting and gold spam, there will always be an ongoing battle against exploiters regardless of the severity of the exploit.

    but the reality is that PWE will likely take action against those that violated the ToS whether they announce it or not. there are far more speculations going on about what happened and how much it affected the economy. of course people want to know details but perhaps PWE and Cryptic would rather focus on resolving the problem and moving towards the next module drop.

    personally, this doesn't affect me enough to care if PWE makes a statement or does another caturday bandaid. in my opinion, they're going to do what they think is better for the company.

    You are deflecting the blame. (which I understand, im sure one of your responsibilities is damage control)

    quoted from a mmo site moderator

    Massively2 days ago
    @ashfyn The basis of society isn't just an "understanding" of what's permissible and not; it's a codified set of rules and consequences. We don't go around locking people up for doing things in violation of an "understanding"; we prosecute actual violations of written law. In MMOs, the law is the game mechanics; the social contract is the TOS/EULA. Making sure the law/game mechanics have no loopholes/exploits is the responsibility of the lawmakers/devs, not the players.

    As Ive said. I care little about details about bannings. Just a little reassurance it had little effect on the economy is all Im asking for. So far weve seen a few replies from you guys, the cms, about it (they are vague, and no real evidence supplied).

    But I agree. The company will do whats best for their bottomline.
    We can pretend.
    Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
    Oh Wonder - Without You

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
    - Dylan Thomas
  • jennyavarieljennyavariel Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 167
    edited August 2014
    As Ive said. I care little about details about bannings. Just a little reassurance it had little effect on the economy is all Im asking for. So far weve seen a few replies from you guys, the cms, about it (they are vague, and no real evidence supplied).

    But I agree. The company will do whats best for their bottomline.

    How could it fail to have an effect on the economy? Large amounts of "printed" currency injected into an economic system causes inflation. It's one of those really simple concepts that's covered in any economics course.

    Prices have gone up, steadily, in just the single month I've been here. It would be informative to start a 'neverwinter price index' on commonly used items, and see how it fluctuates in the coming year.
  • mystagoguemystagogue Member Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    internal decisions are just that: internal.

    some people feel that announcing what is being done to people that violate the ToS is a positive move.

    in my opinion, it would give a false sense of security if they did provide action details. after all, this is a f2p game and new accounts can be created. it's just the nature of this business model. like botting and gold spam, there will always be an ongoing battle against exploiters regardless of the severity of the exploit.

    but the reality is that PWE will likely take action against those that violated the ToS whether they announce it or not. there are far more speculations going on about what happened and how much it affected the economy. of course people want to know details but perhaps PWE and Cryptic would rather focus on resolving the problem and moving towards the next module drop.

    personally, this doesn't affect me enough to care if PWE makes a statement or does another caturday bandaid. in my opinion, they're going to do what they think is better for the company.

    Open dialogue and transparency would go a long way to healing the toxic environment that this situation coupled with the lack of action on multiple significant issues with the game (so that the rush can be put on to produce Mod 4) has caused.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    There is a solution. It's the white elephant in the room. Just, make a character, and *play the game*. Don't get hung up on the rush to BiS. Consider Lesser enchant, and some r7s to be the new ( obtainable ) BiS.
    This solution always sounds like, "I got mine, I don't care if you get yours."
    melodywhr wrote: »
    internal decisions are just that: internal.

    some people feel that announcing what is being done to people that violate the ToS is a positive move.

    in my opinion, it would give a false sense of security if they did provide action details. after all, this is a f2p game and new accounts can be created. it's just the nature of this business model. like botting and gold spam, there will always be an ongoing battle against exploiters regardless of the severity of the exploit.

    but the reality is that PWE will likely take action against those that violated the ToS whether they announce it or not. there are far more speculations going on about what happened and how much it affected the economy. of course people want to know details but perhaps PWE and Cryptic would rather focus on resolving the problem and moving towards the next module drop.

    personally, this doesn't affect me enough to care if PWE makes a statement or does another caturday bandaid. in my opinion, they're going to do what they think is better for the company.
    Problem is that it seems likely that this has been going on for a long time and has fed into the ZAX situation, which directly effects everyone that's not willing to spend money on every transaction. Now I don't mind paying sometimes, but I don't want to pay everytime if that makes sense. The ZAX situation makes that harder and harder, on a new player it makes it even worse. I personally don't care who they ban or how many they ban. What I want to hear is if they have removed some AD from the market, and if they are going to introduce more sinks to try to fix it permanently. Right now things are broken to the extreme and I would have to recommend to someone that asked me for them not to install this game. I don't like being in that position, I want things to get better, but so far there is no sign that that is happening.
  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    What I want to hear is if they have removed some AD from the market, and if they are going to introduce more sinks to try to fix it permanently.

    I would like some kind of statement telling us how they intend on moving forwards , a new module is due in 8 days and any new player who starts on the 14th is going to take one look at that AH and the insane prices and lose any hope of ever getting anywhere and in all likelihood not even bother to continue to level up , the developers have allowed the economy to run completely out of control and I don't think it is too much to expect some kind of explanation .
    YourSecretsAreOurSecrets.gif
  • ixalmarisixalmaris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    iambecks1 wrote: »
    I would like some kind of statement telling us how they intend on moving forwards , a new module is due in 8 days and any new player who starts on the 14th is going to take one look at that AH and the insane prices and lose any hope of ever getting anywhere and in all likelihood not even bother to continue to level up , the developers have allowed the economy to run completely out of control and I don't think it is too much to expect some kind of explanation .


    More cynic people would say that with inflated AH prices new players would be more likely to buy Zen and convert it to AD through ZAX to be able to afford them.
  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ixalmaris wrote: »
    More cynic people would say that with inflated AH prices new players would be more likely to buy Zen and convert it to AD through ZAX to be able to afford them.

    I dunno , I know that if I decided to try a free to play game and the first thing I had to do to even get considered for most dungeon parties was to lay out a fist full of real money I don't think I'd be sticking around , I'd love to be proved wrong though since the game is in need of fresh players.
    YourSecretsAreOurSecrets.gif
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ixalmaris wrote: »
    More cynic people would say that with inflated AH prices new players would be more likely to buy Zen and convert it to AD through ZAX to be able to afford them.

    Not really - very, very few new players are going to be prepared to buy the $240 dollars just to get say just one top end, 12 million AD, Perfect Vorpal enchant? And there are also armour enchants, and 10+ standard enchants, and artifacts.....

    The vast majority will look at the prices, decide they can never earn it in-game and it would be hideously expensive using RL cash to catch up and simply move on.
  • ixalmarisixalmaris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    mconosrep wrote: »
    The vast majority will look at the prices, decide they can never earn it in-game and it would be hideously expensive using RL cash to catch up and simply move on.

    People who only do earn things in game instead of spending money (or only spend small) are of no interest to Cryptic.
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    ixalmaris wrote: »
    More cynic people would say that with inflated AH prices new players would be more likely to buy Zen and convert it to AD through ZAX to be able to afford them.

    Not at $20/1 mil AD and a 10 day-2 week wait they won't. Unless what you expect is an influx of whales and not 'normal' players.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    mconosrep wrote: »
    Not really - very, very few new players are going to be prepared to buy the $240 dollars just to get say just one top end, 12 million AD, Perfect Vorpal enchant? And there are also armour enchants, and 10+ standard enchants, and artifacts.....

    The vast majority will look at the prices, decide they can never earn it in-game and it would be hideously expensive using RL cash to catch up and simply move on.
    Pretty much this. People in their right mind would not pay and start this game the way it is now. I could buy a year of subservice for wow, ff14, etc for less than the price to start getting ahead in this game.
  • kattefjaeskattefjaes Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2,270 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    iambecks1 wrote: »
    I would like some kind of statement telling us how they intend on moving forwards , a new module is due in 8 days and any new player who starts on the 14th is going to take one look at that AH and the insane prices and lose any hope of ever getting anywhere and in all likelihood not even bother to continue to level up

    Unless the problems of the last N weeks are actually fixed properly, they won't be able to gear them up at max level, either.

    I always worry when the drama on an MMO's forum becomes more entertaining than the game itself- it's a sign that things are heading downhill. That said, it's not even entertaining right now, it's just a bit sad- as well-meaning and honest players gaze up all dewey-eyed, looking for a sign that the developers still love them. It's like cruelty to pink fluffy bunnies.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    kattefjaes wrote: »
    Unless the problems of the last N weeks are actually fixed properly, they won't be able to gear them up at max level, either.

    I always worry when the drama on an MMO's forum becomes more entertaining than the game itself- it's a sign that things are heading downhill. That said, it's not even entertaining right now, it's just a bit sad- as well-meaning and honest players gaze up all dewey-eyed, looking for a sign that the developers still love them. It's like cruelty to pink fluffy bunnies.

    The forum drama is more like a George RR Martin novel and PWE is the Lannisters and the players are the Starks.
  • kattefjaeskattefjaes Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2,270 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    The forum drama is more like a George RR Martin novel and PWE is the Lannisters and the players are the Starks.

    George RR Martin was the pirate that used to manage The Beatles, yes?
  • mircalla83mircalla83 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 36
    edited August 2014
    I can just say again - the best we can do is that, despite the damage control and housecleaning, the internet will NEVER forget. Don't tell in details what happened, and how exactly it was done - but remind everybody of the 'harsh punishments' that get traditionally handed out. I am already doing my part.
  • deus69xxxdeus69xxx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    If they want things fixed (and that includes confidence) their best bet is a fair price cap. Not on the zen exchange, but a temporary (albeit middle term) cap on AH prices on items with a mathematical figure based on zen equivalence. That and fixing the FREAKIN DUNGEON CHESTS!

    But seriously, if the AH could get regulated to a particular exchange price AD-Zen, and held there for 4-5 months, the re-posing fees and loss through AH cut would stabilize things. no one's going to hold on to their chants and gear when ALL chants and gear are now effectively comparable in price, they're going to sell so they can get what they need.

    It's a rather difficult change to implement because of math involved and setting things to have a cap, but truly, that would fix everything, and possibly even drive down the zen-AD ratio, since you can get more for less now. and the ZAX would clear up at the same time (well, i dunno about 12-13 mil...) but it would get moving since they could now buy things at decent prices again.

    The only real flaw with that is how much AD people already have creating no need to get more. That's the only thing I can't figure out how to fix, is those with immense AD becoming hoarders. Oh, wait, have some AWESOME AD sinks, that would do it.

    But there you go, economy solved, new players in and probably buying zen to exchange, more free players sticking around being convinced to spend for zen since things are in proper numbers and affordable.

    They don't need to give numbers or details about bans because of a bug. They just need to take active, VISIBLE, steps to fix things. Heck, even an exponential increase in posting cost as you post for more would cause prices to lower (if you were to lose 90% of 12 million for posting that high, wouldn't you reduce price?).

    You want confidence built, fix the dungeons so the market can get competitive, fix the AH so it can't be exploited or abused, fix fix fix. A game that works well for everyone is more confidence building than bashing on some exploiters.
  • anharmonanharmon Member Posts: 175
    edited August 2014
    I'd like some sign that somebody, somewhere is actively thinking about and trying to fix/improve the economy.

    And not just by making everything BoP, that does not count.
  • discriminatingdiscriminating Member Posts: 86
    edited August 2014
    deus69xxx wrote: »
    If they want things fixed (and that includes confidence) their best bet is a fair price cap. Not on the zen exchange, but a temporary (albeit middle term) cap on AH prices on items with a mathematical figure based on zen equivalence. That and fixing the FREAKIN DUNGEON CHESTS!

    But seriously, if the AH could get regulated to a particular exchange price AD-Zen, and held there for 4-5 months, the re-posing fees and loss through AH cut would stabilize things. no one's going to hold on to their chants and gear when ALL chants and gear are now effectively comparable in price, they're going to sell so they can get what they need.

    It's a rather difficult change to implement because of math involved and setting things to have a cap, but truly, that would fix everything, and possibly even drive down the zen-AD ratio, since you can get more for less now. and the ZAX would clear up at the same time (well, i dunno about 12-13 mil...) but it would get moving since they could now buy things at decent prices again.

    The only real flaw with that is how much AD people already have creating no need to get more. That's the only thing I can't figure out how to fix, is those with immense AD becoming hoarders. Oh, wait, have some AWESOME AD sinks, that would do it.

    But there you go, economy solved, new players in and probably buying zen to exchange, more free players sticking around being convinced to spend for zen since things are in proper numbers and affordable.

    They don't need to give numbers or details about bans because of a bug. They just need to take active, VISIBLE, steps to fix things. Heck, even an exponential increase in posting cost as you post for more would cause prices to lower (if you were to lose 90% of 12 million for posting that high, wouldn't you reduce price?).

    You want confidence built, fix the dungeons so the market can get competitive, fix the AH so it can't be exploited or abused, fix fix fix. A game that works well for everyone is more confidence building than bashing on some exploiters.

    Or they could just take all the AD that exists on the server, gather it up, and the give everyone an equal share. /sarcasmoff

    Please, price fixing doesn't work in the real world and it won't work here. You don't counter a massive influx of counterfeit currency into your economy by forcing bread to remain $1 a loaf. If they want to fix it, they need to a) yank as much counterfeit currency as they can out of the system. Just get the AD out. And b) provide real, legitimate, and useful AD sinks.
  • deus69xxxdeus69xxx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    See the thread involving sinks, as they're integral to something like this working. And this isn't a real world economy, this is a completely mutable game economy, things like this CAN work, because the actual currency (not zen, there are legal issues with that) are controlled by the game crew. If they wanted to, they could empty your game currencies bag of gold and various others, and it would tick you off, but they can do it, with no reason.

    You can compare economics in games to real, but they are not bound by the same rules, no matter how much you fight that idea.

    And you ARE correct that they need to zap out counterfeit currencies. If anything comes of this, THAT should be it, though FAR harder a task, especially if an innocent got some AD from a counterfeiter who bought something from them.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    You are deflecting the blame. (which I understand, im sure one of your responsibilities is damage control)

    quoted from a mmo site moderator

    Massively2 days ago



    As Ive said. I care little about details about bannings. Just a little reassurance it had little effect on the economy is all Im asking for. So far weve seen a few replies from you guys, the cms, about it (they are vague, and no real evidence supplied).

    But I agree. The company will do whats best for their bottomline.

    i don't think i'm deflecting anything. i'm specifically talking about whether or not it's a true confidence builder for PWE to announce their actions. some people want blood and try to stir up the masses with conjecture and assumption. it doesn't change the fact that they did take action to resolve the problem with an emergency fix. in a perfect world (no pun intended), software has no bugs/loopholes/exploits. if this is what you expect, then its possible that your expectations are unrealistic. the ToS is written in such a way to protect the company by stating it is possible that the software does have bugs and there are no guarantees that they will be fixed to your specifications. this isn't unusual. go read the ToS of any other gaming company. it's why most gaming companies have regular (or irregular) maintenance times.

    and in the end, it's all about what is in their best interest. that may conflict with others opinions. they are allowed to have their opinions and voice them here as long as it is constructive and respectful.
  • rollingonitrollingonit Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    i don't think i'm deflecting anything. i'm specifically talking about whether or not it's a true confidence builder for PWE to announce their actions. some people want blood and try to stir up the masses with conjecture and assumption. it doesn't change the fact that they did take action to resolve the problem with an emergency fix. in a perfect world (no pun intended), software has no bugs/loopholes/exploits. if this is what you expect, then its possible that your expectations are unrealistic. the ToS is written in such a way to protect the company by stating it is possible that the software does have bugs and there are no guarantees that they will be fixed to your specifications. this isn't unusual. go read the ToS of any other gaming company. it's why most gaming companies have regular (or irregular) maintenance times.

    and in the end, it's all about what is in their best interest. that may conflict with others opinions. they are allowed to have their opinions and voice them here as long as it is constructive and respectful.

    And im not asking for blood. Read the last part of my post. And I know you're doing damage control to protect the image of the company.

    If you wish to be a success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing
    – Napoleon Bonaparte

    See I understand it better than you give me credit for.

    Also as far as constructive goes. Your suggestion is to stick our heads in the sand and pretend none of this happened. My suggestion as quoted.
    Just a little reassurance it had little effect on the economy is all Im asking for.


    Posting an AH bid in negative AD, cancelling it and it returns AD you had not placed. Repeat over and over and over for several hours
    Emptying a chest of Rank 5 enchants, reloading the character and doing it again as the chest had respawned, over and over and over again.
    Duplicating Ioun Stones using some bank slot glitch or other
    Duplicating Cats on Caturday the same way
    The recent Astral Resonator Infinite AD exploit
    Bot Characters, programmed to farm all the Professions nodes and chests on a map, then change instance and do it again, over and over over;
    Bot Characters, programmed to farm all the Skirmish events and PvP events over and over and over
    3rd party sites selling AD, Gold, Enchants, Keys and Wards
    3rd party programmes that create AD and Zen on an account that can be transferred to another

    Ignorance is bliss.
    We can pretend.
    Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
    Oh Wonder - Without You

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
    - Dylan Thomas
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    mystagogue wrote: »
    Open dialogue and transparency would go a long way to healing the toxic environment that this situation coupled with the lack of action on multiple significant issues with the game (so that the rush can be put on to produce Mod 4) has caused.

    i'm not entirely sure that i would agree. because in the history of MMOs, bugs are discovered and exploited. no private company is transparent. and they are constantly working on bugs and issues as they continue to churn out new content. why they aren't working on specific issues is internal and proprietary. it is in the ToS that the service may not meet your requirements.

    whether it is in the company's best interest or not is an opinion and ultimately the company is going to do what they think is best for the company.
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    The forum drama is more like a George RR Martin novel and PWE is the Lannisters and the players are the Starks.


    This seems an apt comparison, as I seem to have been cast as Eddard Stark playing in Groundhog Day the last couple of days of my posting around here. ;)
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