Hard to land ? takedown cant really miss lol, if your close enough you press the button and even if the enemy runs away it still hits them.....the same for restoring strike. Even if takedown does somehow miss then its on a 3 second cooldown anyway...
Actually there are some times when the enemy ends up behind us. Even if we turn the camera to face the target, takedown lands the other direction of the taget.
If you can follow that train of thought. xD
Actually there are some times when the enemy ends up behind us. Even if we turn the camera to face the target, takedown lands the other direction of the taget.
If you can follow that train of thought. xD
oh yeah i think i know what you are talking about xD
anyway i think takedown is good though, if it could be put back the way it is now, with that glitched fixed im sure many problems would be solved just with that.
This is true. But if Takedown misses like that, it goes on a shorter cooldown to be ready to be used again very quickly. There are a few different possibilities with Takedown.
- Takedown hits, target is stunned.
- Takedown hits, target was able to move a bit, gets stunned in a different location. This has to do with synchronicity issues between Takedown's effect and animation, as well as lag.
- Takedown misses, goes on a shorter cooldown. In some cases, the target may have used a dodge to move out of the way.
- Takedown hits, but target used a dodge to gain immunity, causing Takedown to crash on that. In this case, Takedown goes on a longer cooldown, but the target is also out of one dodge. And obviously, if the target keeps using dodges to avoid Takedown, it gets easier to hit it with other powers. Timing a dodge to crash Takedown like this can be hard depending on latency.
Takedown by itself isn't too difficult to land, but it can be difficult enough that GWFs have relied on combinations with easier-to-land cc, like Roar (very easy, very low recharge currently) or FLS, giving GWFs some very easy combinations to play. However, the low cooldown on a miss compensates adequately for this, unlike some other moves that are even harder to land (like the CW's Shard, which has a very high cooldown and currently does negligible damage). If GWF combinations get harder to land, that raises the skill requirement to be successful at the class a bit, which is a plus.
great, we have a smart person here , lql ..
i wish they'll do shorter cooldowns on CAGI and daring shout, to make you guys to shut up.
Hard to land ? takedown cant really miss lol, if your close enough you press the button and even if the enemy runs away it still hits them.....the same for restoring strike. Even if takedown does somehow miss then its on a 3 second cooldown anyway...
Not true at all crixus. Landing a direct takedown is indeed not that simple in a 1v1 against an experienced opponent. The animation is not as slow as IBS, but slow enough for good players to time their dodges. Most of the times takedown does not "miss", but crashes on the enemy immunity and goes on full cooldown, not the 3 seconds one.
Good CWs can do that. HRs too.
Catching a strong perma in his usual rotation is pretty much impossible with a direct takedown. Reason: they can time PERFECTLY their ITC and dodge roll immune away as soon as it ends. Then, if you're not using a ranged stun/ prone, you run to the location where they are supposed to be and...they're not there anymore. Then you need to find them in stealth, chase them (sprint will run out fast) and takedown...nope. No good GWF will ever use takedown as a direct hit.
On a side note, when vsing GWFs i usually can dodge takedown with sprint alone 70-80% of the times. It's range is not that long.
My experience is this. And this is the reason why no GWF, for example, open his rotation with a takedown, but prefer to use a ranged stun or prone. It's not cause we're lazy. It's cause takedown and IBS rarely connect directly against good players. Destroyers can try it since the cooldown can be reduced to around 6.5-7 seconds if you feat for it, and make up for the low chances of landing it, again, against good PvPers who move a lot and fast. But Destroyers are also quite squishy and you've to gear a lot for survivability to make up for their low base survivability in mod4.
Same goes with flourish. Yeah, long range, yeah, follows the enemy. Too bad the animation is so slow any good PvPer can see the animation starting, drink a coffee, read the newspaper and then time the immunity dodge to make it crush on immunity. Even a GWF now can time his sprint CC immunity to, at least, avoid the stun.
It's quite different playing a GWF, compared to other classes that need to just aim and press the button, and the hit will land. Almost no GWF power has auto-aim, most of them work just like indomitable strenght. Also, the stun chain rotation is a direct consequence of these mechanics. You hardly land a takedown directly on a good PvPer who is dodging/ moving. To avoid being kited, then you go for a ranged CC move. FLS is the only one left. IBS can pretty much land only following takedown. So it's quite natural to go for ranged CC- takedown- IBS. There's no other way for a GWF in PvP.
If devs want to give us 100% hitting moves then yeah, we can give up on this rotation. Right now, in mod4, the only viable rotation is FLS-TD-IBS. These are the weapons the devs gave us.
- Takedown hits, but target used a dodge to gain immunity, causing Takedown to crash on that. In this case, Takedown goes on a longer cooldown, but the target is also out of one dodge. And obviously, if the target keeps using dodges to avoid Takedown, it gets easier to hit it with other powers. Timing a dodge to crash Takedown like this can be hard depending on latency.
Takedown by itself isn't too difficult to land, but it can be difficult enough that GWFs have relied on combinations with easier-to-land cc, like Roar (very easy, very low recharge currently) or FLS, giving GWFs some very easy combinations to play. However, the low cooldown on a miss compensates adequately for this, unlike some other moves that are even harder to land (like the CW's Shard, which has a very high cooldown and currently does negligible damage). If GWF combinations get harder to land, that raises the skill requirement to be successful at the class a bit, which is a plus.
I'd love if all your theorycrafting would actually match reality. In PvP, 90% of the times your takedown hits aome kind of immunity. May be lag, may be that experienced PvPers have lots of mobility and coninuously bunnyhop around, mixing bunnyhop with dodges.
Also: if takedown hits immunity, yeah the target is "out of 1 dodge", but your encounter is wasted and the enemy cooldowns tic tac are on their way to allow him to hit/ CC you again.
Now i'd love to see a video of someone fighting against strong PvPers from good guilds without FLS and Roar so that "GWF combos are harder to land and require skill", and see how it ends. Let me give you a preview from module 1:
Start watching from 1:14.
that is how it ends up without ranged CC and using flourish, against good PvPers. On a side note, that is an old regeneration sentinel tank. Now GWF regenerate a lot less due to HD, and CWs can dodge more. And CWs are not even the more "dodgy" class...
You do realize that that is one of the better CWs in the history of the game, right? And even so, GWFs will still have better tools than that in module 4, since they can move faster, still get three charges of Threatening Rush and Frontline Surge, and will occasionally even use Savage Advance rather than Avalanche of Steel. Just hopefully not to the point of being able to victimize CWs quite as badly as in module 3. It really depends on how bad the CW nerfs turn out.
what nerfs ?
CW right now has the best PVP updates.
shield+ asailant, and if the cw moves like the CW from pando video ... who needs shard on tab? you can put flanning flame for better DOT, geez...
GWF has threatin rush = 3 charges , 3 charges with 9second recharge, to have all 3 charges recharged, do the math 9x3= 27 seconds.
Front Line Surge will only stun, and not prone for 3 seconds if u add the feat another 2 seconds , but majority have halfing or sun elf that has 10% cc + 20 % tenacity + wisdom, and now there are new belts that give more ability scores... + camp fire and depends on the class how much CC they get from feats... so FS won't do to much , not even Takedown, and to get some feats you need to lose other good feats.
even if he uses savage advance, shield from CW cuts in half the damage , so instead of 10k per savage advance = 5k , not to say that savage advance it's still dodgeable. so they broke the GWF class only for PVP , in PVE he will do fine.
we lack shorter cooldowns on many other encounters, not everyone will take 50% shorter cooldown for takedown from destroyer, it's a t3 feat, what if i wanan go sentinel and play as sentinel.. i will still have a 11seconds takedown... not to say our single encounter that charges AP is IBS , and Daring shout and ROAR are the only one that gives us determination .
who will win in a 1vs1 , the one who has 3 dailies per minut , or the one who needs to wait more than 1 minute to have a daily? and even that can be dodged.
I know. Still, strong CWs can do that much usually. And perm TRs and HRs are even more dodgy than that.
New sprint is not long enough. I tested it, it's pretty much either 7 small bursts the lenght of the HR dodges (HRs have 5 and are ranged) or 3 long sprints a little bit (not much) longer than the 3 CWs teleports (but CWs are ranged and their base stamina regeneration is much higher). With all boons and stuff for stamina and run speed. And it must be used to close gap, chase the enemy, be "proactive" in defense. Can mix with threat rush 3 charges but considering TRs and HRs have higher base movement speed and most experienced PvPers move a lot and bunnyhop a lot making Threat rush not that useful.
Tested a bit with another GWF against a CW. CW was 15k. GWF 18k and me 17k. He tried swordmaster. Useless. He lost first time, almost lost second time. With 3k GS difference. Flourish is useless in PvP.
I won in IV with FLS-takedown-IBS as destroyer (reduced cooldown on takedown). Still 2k GS difference, but the 3 secs stun seems to work well. He was in PvP gear (didn't see if grim or profund), so i can consider high tenacity. Right now i can only use a combo of 2 purified black ice and 2 grim sentinel. Will be able to test better once i can use full purified BI.
Not much test left for me BTW, il be away from monday to 15 august, so pretty much when ToD gets to live.
So far, have to say the increased stun helps, allowing destroyers to gain stacks and deal more damage. Also, CC acts both offensive and defensive so it seems to help. But need more tests to see how effective it can be.
Not true at all crixus. Landing a direct takedown is indeed not that simple in a 1v1 against an experienced opponent. The animation is not as slow as IBS, but slow enough for good players to time their dodges. Most of the times takedown does not "miss", but crashes on the enemy immunity and goes on full cooldown, not the 3 seconds one.
Good CWs can do that. HRs too.
Catching a strong perma in his usual rotation is pretty much impossible with a direct takedown. Reason: they can time PERFECTLY their ITC and dodge roll immune away as soon as it ends. Then, if you're not using a ranged stun/ prone, you run to the location where they are supposed to be and...they're not there anymore. Then you need to find them in stealth, chase them (sprint will run out fast) and takedown...nope. No good GWF will ever use takedown as a direct hit.
On a side note, when vsing GWFs i usually can dodge takedown with sprint alone 70-80% of the times. It's range is not that long.
My experience is this. And this is the reason why no GWF, for example, open his rotation with a takedown, but prefer to use a ranged stun or prone. It's not cause we're lazy. It's cause takedown and IBS rarely connect directly against good players. Destroyers can try it since the cooldown can be reduced to around 6.5-7 seconds if you feat for it, and make up for the low chances of landing it, again, against good PvPers who move a lot and fast. But Destroyers are also quite squishy and you've to gear a lot for survivability to make up for their low base survivability in mod4.
Same goes with flourish. Yeah, long range, yeah, follows the enemy. Too bad the animation is so slow any good PvPer can see the animation starting, drink a coffee, read the newspaper and then time the immunity dodge to make it crush on immunity. Even a GWF now can time his sprint CC immunity to, at least, avoid the stun.
It's quite different playing a GWF, compared to other classes that need to just aim and press the button, and the hit will land. Almost no GWF power has auto-aim, most of them work just like indomitable strenght. Also, the stun chain rotation is a direct consequence of these mechanics. You hardly land a takedown directly on a good PvPer who is dodging/ moving. To avoid being kited, then you go for a ranged CC move. FLS is the only one left. IBS can pretty much land only following takedown. So it's quite natural to go for ranged CC- takedown- IBS. There's no other way for a GWF in PvP.
If devs want to give us 100% hitting moves then yeah, we can give up on this rotation. Right now, in mod4, the only viable rotation is FLS-TD-IBS. These are the weapons the devs gave us.
I have played gwf but not that much so i will take your word for it. If takedown is that hard to land im not sure why they nerfed it to not prone and weakened dmg then. As i said before gwf should have at least 1 prone encounter....
Also atm I will admit an equal gwf and gf, the gf will win. gwf players can still do good but its messed up since our shield is timed based, and we can turn very fast too so we can block everything gwf can throw at us, then just chain our encounters. The only way I have seen a gwf do very well is by maxing out movement from rank 10s in slots, the guy could move so fast he basically teliported lol so gf couldn't turn fast enough.
To balance both classes I think gwf need a prone and some way of hitting gf behind shield, not sure how that would work but if these 2 classes was fully balanced to be equals just different then that would be great!
Edit: I don't want gf to be OP and atm wizards and rangers can beat most gf easy on mod 4 so them classes are still high and a good tr can have equal chance but I do really hope gwf become equal and not OP again. In mod 3 atm I would say 90% of gwf players are cocky and talk down to people because they know there class is OP....you can never have a conversation with one of them without him insulting you or you can never kill one without him calling you a **** lol.
I have played gwf but not that much so i will take your word for it. If takedown is that hard to land im not sure why they nerfed it to not prone and weakened dmg then. As i said before gwf should have at least 1 prone encounter....
Also atm I will admit an equal gwf and gf, the gf will win. gwf players can still do good but its messed up since our shield is timed based, and we can turn very fast too so we can block everything gwf can throw at us, then just chain our encounters. The only way I have seen a gwf do very well is by maxing out movement from rank 10s in slots, the guy could move so fast he basically teliported lol so gf couldn't turn fast enough.
To balance both classes I think gwf need a prone and some way of hitting gf behind shield, not sure how that would work but if these 2 classes was fully balanced to be equals just different then that would be great!
Edit: I don't want gf to be OP and atm wizards and rangers can beat most gf easy on mod 4 so them classes are still high and a good tr can have equal chance but I do really hope gwf become equal and not OP again. In mod 3 atm I would say 90% of gwf players are cocky and talk down to people because they know there class is OP....you can never have a conversation with one of them without him insulting you or you can never kill one without him calling you a **** lol.
wow, bravo, but let me remind you few post earlier where you guys have the same attitude as thos guys you hate
GWF doesn't do any damage to other classes atm, and he doesn't even have any clear build to make atm to do well in PVP.
but you all come with this excuse "You need skill " tell me when a HR or a CW on preview needs skill when the skills doesn't have nothin to do with better feats than gwf at this point. but nevermind !!
and what about unstopable, the only function that he has now is to not get CC, as most of the damage goes through it. not to say in mod4 there will be even more armpen on builds
wow, bravo, but let me remind you few post earlier where you guys have the same attitude as thos guys you hate
GWF doesn't do any damage to other classes atm, and he doesn't even have any clear build to make atm to do well in PVP.
but you all come with this excuse "You need skill " tell me when a HR or a CW on preview needs skill when the skills doesn't have nothin to do with better feats than gwf at this point. but nevermind !!
On preview I beat 5 cw players, was all good fights but then 1 cw fought me and I didn't even take his hp down by 10%...his gs was the same as the rest but I just could not get close to him, he was great at keeping distance and timing.
Anyway like I said gf is better than gwf atm so a few small changes could fix that, a good prone power and someway of countering gf shield, more control maybe or something else.
Also not sure if its changed now but your guys instigator feat path looks like it could do with a rework since most people go destroyer or sentinel anyway.
I don't see why every class in the game shouldn't have equal chance of killing another, in a 1v1 all classes should be balanced and it should just come down to skill and who knows there class better.
On preview I beat 5 cw players, was all good fights but then 1 cw fought me and I didn't even take his hp down by 10%...his gs was the same as the rest but I just could not get close to him, he was great at keeping distance and timing.
Anyway like I said gf is better than gwf atm so a few small changes could fix that, a good prone power and someway of countering gf shield, more control maybe or something else.
Also not sure if its changed now but your guys instigator feat path looks like it could do with a rework since most people go destroyer or sentinel anyway.
I don't see why every class in the game shouldn't have equal chance of killing another, in a 1v1 all classes should be balanced and it should just come down to skill and who knows there class better.
well that's what we GWF PVPers want too, all gwf who knows how to be fair didn't whine about ROAR nerf, we gladly accepted, but we didn't expect to get this nerfs at this extent , we only thinked that by gettin this nerfs we will be balanced, i too thinked that HR would be nerfed alongside with gwf, but guess what, i was wrong, they get revamped and better feats, more deflect... and ofc you lose it and start spammin the forums when you see CWs/HR tankier and doin better even in a close combat than the melee classes..
and here is not about skill, it's about OP encounters and FEATS ... as they need to somehow balance this things. maybe with 3rd path ( PIT fighter) we will get better encounters.
I have played gwf but not that much so i will take your word for it. If takedown is that hard to land im not sure why they nerfed it to not prone and weakened dmg then. As i said before gwf should have at least 1 prone encounter....
I'll tell you what crush said:
- Takedown got nerfed from prone to a stun cause the IBS follow up after a prone was ignoring deflect, and that was not the way they wanted it to work, and they wanted IBS to actually take into account deflect and tenacity
- Takedown got nerfed in damage cause on destroyers with full stacks it could hit for over 8-10k and it was too much. And they wanted people to focus more on "utility" rather than "damage" with takedown.
If you notice, no GWF, no matter how skilled, ever used direct takedown to open his rotation.
In module 1 it was Roar+ takedown+ IBS against TRs/ CWs, and bravery slotted. Roar to root from range, takedown follow up as a requirement to land IBS successfully.
In module 2 it was FLS-Takedown-IBS, same reason, but FLS got way more damage than roar and prone
In module 3 Destroyer proved to be better due to buffs, just needed to be geared to survive. Roar+ takedown with reduced cooldown proved way better. Even if Roar was not bugged, would still be better for a destroyer due tu shorter cooldown and FLS getting nerfed in damage.
Since the beginning GWFs always got to use a ranged CC move to open. And the reason is exactly that: IBS requires takedown to land. Takedown is not reliable to open your rotation except against GFs with less mobility. But against a CW, a perma TR, a HR, a takedown to open is not reliable.
Want a proof: ask any GWF player you see as skilled to avoid using FLS or Roar on live and fight an equally skilled CW, HR or TR. Even as OP as mod3 GWF can be, he will lose 100%, my prediction.
The roration that come closer to be good without a ranged CC move is, to me, Punishing charge, takedown, IBS. And i still think it's still far from being good enough.
actually nvm i am wastin time with you.
it was just a reply of what you said baka, after you said "why we need prone? " why we have takedown with 7 sec and 3 sec if we miss" geez, nvm .. wastin time
All the single-target damage skills received direct damage nerfs. Instead of what they initially tried to do, which was raise casting times, which would never have let CWs get a spell off. They finally did give CWs some damage back, but some spells are still massively nerfed in damage, Shard particularly (even more so by that upgrade to the single-target spells, in fact).
the fact u r crying over some spells is pissing me off , atleast u still have CC and many other spells which can do dmg , while GWF all basic PVP encounters and at wills dmg got nerfed , my IBS hit 1k-2k now , while takedown do about 500-1.5k , FS same as takedown and threatning rush , forget about the dmg , to get close to opponent we have to preserve it in our tray till the time is right.
u guys crying over sprint this and that , if GWF goes for stamina regenration build we will loose many things , while our sprint does provide CC immunity , its the same for all the classes shift ability , while other class shift ability are immune to dmg too , except GF but they got 80% dmg reduction after the dmg interact with DR , so they will take negligible dmg .
on the other hand we only get 30% DR which is nothing , we take 5k dmg from every class in our sprint from ur each encounter while u take 0.
and if u cry about unstoppable , dont u have ur shield more DR than a destoyer unstoppable , and u do more dmg than a destro , the only reason uGWF was able to rush u was cause of unstoppable which is nerfed. after 33% health loss we get determination to use unstoppable and after using it we still take dmg making our health drop about 10% more , so u r saying we loose 40%(approx) health just to stand in front of ranger class i.e. 1 Deep prejudice u have.
GF with tank spec do now more dmg than a destro GWF while still having the DR in upper limits.
wow , if u used all ur blinks and we sprint , we will arrive at the same point , while we take dmg u will dodge all the dmges.
the fact u r crying over some spells is pissing me off , atleast u still have CC and many other spells which can do dmg , while GWF all basic PVP encounters and at wills dmg got nerfed , my IBS hit 1k-2k now , while takedown do about 500-1.5k , FS same as takedown and threatning rush , forget about the dmg , to get close to opponent we have to preserve it in our tray till the time is right.
u guys crying over sprint this and that , if GWF goes for stamina regenration build we will loose many things , while our sprint does provide CC immunity , its the same for all the classes shift ability , while other class shift ability are immune to dmg too , except GF but they got 80% dmg reduction after the dmg interact with DR , so they will take negligible dmg .
on the other hand we only get 30% DR which is nothing , we take 5k dmg from every class in our sprint from ur each encounter while u take 0.
and if u cry about unstoppable , dont u have ur shield more DR than a destoyer unstoppable , and u do more dmg than a destro , the only reason uGWF was able to rush u was cause of unstoppable which is nerfed. after 33% health loss we get determination to use unstoppable and after using it we still take dmg making our health drop about 10% more , so u r saying we loose 40%(approx) health just to stand in front of ranger class i.e. 1 Deep prejudice u have.
GF with tank spec do now more dmg than a destro GWF while still having the DR in upper limits.
for what i've seen right now, a build for gwf should sentinel with str/con or con/wis and artefacts with control resist or stamina regeneration but everythin depends on steely grace that class feature can help alot in pvp.
Sounds fair enough. In the meanwhile, you get to weave in some sprinting and you can slot Bravery. GWFs remain the most mobile class.
Mann, what are you talking about? Since when can any GWF sprint for 27 seconds straight?
Besides, threatening rush is the only mobility power that GWF's have. GF's have Lunging Strike, Bull Charge, AND Threatening Rush (with no cooldowns!!). HR's have their slightly weaker version of threatening rush; it's the melee counter-part to split shot.
Class with best mobility goes to GF.
Using Shield in PvP will probably still be a scrub move.
That won't stop anyone from using it. Just like no TR's will stop using their cheesy SE.
...can't have all the good stuff at once?
No. Our complaint is that we will have NO good stuff.
Mann, what are you talking about? Since when can any GWF sprint for 27 seconds straight?
Besides, threatening rush is the only mobility power that GWF's have. GF's have Lunging Strike, Bull Charge, AND Threatening Rush (with no cooldowns!!). HR's have their slightly weaker version of threatening rush; it's the melee counter-part to split shot.
Class with best mobility goes to GF.
That won't stop anyone from using it. Just like no TR's will stop using their cheesy SE.
No. Our complaint is that we will have NO good stuff.
I'm sorry but gf do not have best mobility at all.....we have very slow movement and no dodges, only lunge, bull and threatening rush, that does not make us the highest mobility class and even so they are all offensive. What happens when our guard is down ? we can bull charge away lol we just slowly try to escape then die.
I would say hr easily has the best mobility in the game, having many shifts then having marauders escape dashing back 20 feet and then marauders rush that can launch you at an enemy from a huge distance plus the melee version of split shot. They have most dodges and ways to escape or enter combat.
Even rogue have way way more move than a gf, a rogue can get 80% move speed lol they can run faster than a rare mount xD plus some good teliporting encounters.
Comments
Actually there are some times when the enemy ends up behind us. Even if we turn the camera to face the target, takedown lands the other direction of the taget.
If you can follow that train of thought. xD
oh yeah i think i know what you are talking about xD
anyway i think takedown is good though, if it could be put back the way it is now, with that glitched fixed im sure many problems would be solved just with that.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
great, we have a smart person here , lql ..
i wish they'll do shorter cooldowns on CAGI and daring shout, to make you guys to shut up.
Not true at all crixus. Landing a direct takedown is indeed not that simple in a 1v1 against an experienced opponent. The animation is not as slow as IBS, but slow enough for good players to time their dodges. Most of the times takedown does not "miss", but crashes on the enemy immunity and goes on full cooldown, not the 3 seconds one.
Good CWs can do that. HRs too.
Catching a strong perma in his usual rotation is pretty much impossible with a direct takedown. Reason: they can time PERFECTLY their ITC and dodge roll immune away as soon as it ends. Then, if you're not using a ranged stun/ prone, you run to the location where they are supposed to be and...they're not there anymore. Then you need to find them in stealth, chase them (sprint will run out fast) and takedown...nope. No good GWF will ever use takedown as a direct hit.
On a side note, when vsing GWFs i usually can dodge takedown with sprint alone 70-80% of the times. It's range is not that long.
My experience is this. And this is the reason why no GWF, for example, open his rotation with a takedown, but prefer to use a ranged stun or prone. It's not cause we're lazy. It's cause takedown and IBS rarely connect directly against good players. Destroyers can try it since the cooldown can be reduced to around 6.5-7 seconds if you feat for it, and make up for the low chances of landing it, again, against good PvPers who move a lot and fast. But Destroyers are also quite squishy and you've to gear a lot for survivability to make up for their low base survivability in mod4.
Same goes with flourish. Yeah, long range, yeah, follows the enemy. Too bad the animation is so slow any good PvPer can see the animation starting, drink a coffee, read the newspaper and then time the immunity dodge to make it crush on immunity. Even a GWF now can time his sprint CC immunity to, at least, avoid the stun.
It's quite different playing a GWF, compared to other classes that need to just aim and press the button, and the hit will land. Almost no GWF power has auto-aim, most of them work just like indomitable strenght. Also, the stun chain rotation is a direct consequence of these mechanics. You hardly land a takedown directly on a good PvPer who is dodging/ moving. To avoid being kited, then you go for a ranged CC move. FLS is the only one left. IBS can pretty much land only following takedown. So it's quite natural to go for ranged CC- takedown- IBS. There's no other way for a GWF in PvP.
If devs want to give us 100% hitting moves then yeah, we can give up on this rotation. Right now, in mod4, the only viable rotation is FLS-TD-IBS. These are the weapons the devs gave us.
I'd love if all your theorycrafting would actually match reality. In PvP, 90% of the times your takedown hits aome kind of immunity. May be lag, may be that experienced PvPers have lots of mobility and coninuously bunnyhop around, mixing bunnyhop with dodges.
Also: if takedown hits immunity, yeah the target is "out of 1 dodge", but your encounter is wasted and the enemy cooldowns tic tac are on their way to allow him to hit/ CC you again.
Now i'd love to see a video of someone fighting against strong PvPers from good guilds without FLS and Roar so that "GWF combos are harder to land and require skill", and see how it ends. Let me give you a preview from module 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIH6FNiwbxI
Start watching from 1:14.
that is how it ends up without ranged CC and using flourish, against good PvPers. On a side note, that is an old regeneration sentinel tank. Now GWF regenerate a lot less due to HD, and CWs can dodge more. And CWs are not even the more "dodgy" class...
what nerfs ?
CW right now has the best PVP updates.
shield+ asailant, and if the cw moves like the CW from pando video ... who needs shard on tab? you can put flanning flame for better DOT, geez...
GWF has threatin rush = 3 charges , 3 charges with 9second recharge, to have all 3 charges recharged, do the math 9x3= 27 seconds.
Front Line Surge will only stun, and not prone for 3 seconds if u add the feat another 2 seconds , but majority have halfing or sun elf that has 10% cc + 20 % tenacity + wisdom, and now there are new belts that give more ability scores... + camp fire and depends on the class how much CC they get from feats... so FS won't do to much , not even Takedown, and to get some feats you need to lose other good feats.
even if he uses savage advance, shield from CW cuts in half the damage , so instead of 10k per savage advance = 5k , not to say that savage advance it's still dodgeable. so they broke the GWF class only for PVP , in PVE he will do fine.
we lack shorter cooldowns on many other encounters, not everyone will take 50% shorter cooldown for takedown from destroyer, it's a t3 feat, what if i wanan go sentinel and play as sentinel.. i will still have a 11seconds takedown... not to say our single encounter that charges AP is IBS , and Daring shout and ROAR are the only one that gives us determination .
who will win in a 1vs1 , the one who has 3 dailies per minut , or the one who needs to wait more than 1 minute to have a daily? and even that can be dodged.
New sprint is not long enough. I tested it, it's pretty much either 7 small bursts the lenght of the HR dodges (HRs have 5 and are ranged) or 3 long sprints a little bit (not much) longer than the 3 CWs teleports (but CWs are ranged and their base stamina regeneration is much higher). With all boons and stuff for stamina and run speed. And it must be used to close gap, chase the enemy, be "proactive" in defense. Can mix with threat rush 3 charges but considering TRs and HRs have higher base movement speed and most experienced PvPers move a lot and bunnyhop a lot making Threat rush not that useful.
Tested a bit with another GWF against a CW. CW was 15k. GWF 18k and me 17k. He tried swordmaster. Useless. He lost first time, almost lost second time. With 3k GS difference. Flourish is useless in PvP.
I won in IV with FLS-takedown-IBS as destroyer (reduced cooldown on takedown). Still 2k GS difference, but the 3 secs stun seems to work well. He was in PvP gear (didn't see if grim or profund), so i can consider high tenacity. Right now i can only use a combo of 2 purified black ice and 2 grim sentinel. Will be able to test better once i can use full purified BI.
Not much test left for me BTW, il be away from monday to 15 august, so pretty much when ToD gets to live.
So far, have to say the increased stun helps, allowing destroyers to gain stacks and deal more damage. Also, CC acts both offensive and defensive so it seems to help. But need more tests to see how effective it can be.
I have played gwf but not that much so i will take your word for it. If takedown is that hard to land im not sure why they nerfed it to not prone and weakened dmg then. As i said before gwf should have at least 1 prone encounter....
Also atm I will admit an equal gwf and gf, the gf will win. gwf players can still do good but its messed up since our shield is timed based, and we can turn very fast too so we can block everything gwf can throw at us, then just chain our encounters. The only way I have seen a gwf do very well is by maxing out movement from rank 10s in slots, the guy could move so fast he basically teliported lol so gf couldn't turn fast enough.
To balance both classes I think gwf need a prone and some way of hitting gf behind shield, not sure how that would work but if these 2 classes was fully balanced to be equals just different then that would be great!
Edit: I don't want gf to be OP and atm wizards and rangers can beat most gf easy on mod 4 so them classes are still high and a good tr can have equal chance but I do really hope gwf become equal and not OP again. In mod 3 atm I would say 90% of gwf players are cocky and talk down to people because they know there class is OP....you can never have a conversation with one of them without him insulting you or you can never kill one without him calling you a **** lol.
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wow, bravo, but let me remind you few post earlier where you guys have the same attitude as thos guys you hate
GWF doesn't do any damage to other classes atm, and he doesn't even have any clear build to make atm to do well in PVP.
but you all come with this excuse "You need skill " tell me when a HR or a CW on preview needs skill when the skills doesn't have nothin to do with better feats than gwf at this point. but nevermind !!
and what about unstopable, the only function that he has now is to not get CC, as most of the damage goes through it. not to say in mod4 there will be even more armpen on builds
On preview I beat 5 cw players, was all good fights but then 1 cw fought me and I didn't even take his hp down by 10%...his gs was the same as the rest but I just could not get close to him, he was great at keeping distance and timing.
Anyway like I said gf is better than gwf atm so a few small changes could fix that, a good prone power and someway of countering gf shield, more control maybe or something else.
Also not sure if its changed now but your guys instigator feat path looks like it could do with a rework since most people go destroyer or sentinel anyway.
I don't see why every class in the game shouldn't have equal chance of killing another, in a 1v1 all classes should be balanced and it should just come down to skill and who knows there class better.
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well that's what we GWF PVPers want too, all gwf who knows how to be fair didn't whine about ROAR nerf, we gladly accepted, but we didn't expect to get this nerfs at this extent , we only thinked that by gettin this nerfs we will be balanced, i too thinked that HR would be nerfed alongside with gwf, but guess what, i was wrong, they get revamped and better feats, more deflect... and ofc you lose it and start spammin the forums when you see CWs/HR tankier and doin better even in a close combat than the melee classes..
and here is not about skill, it's about OP encounters and FEATS ... as they need to somehow balance this things. maybe with 3rd path ( PIT fighter) we will get better encounters.
I'll tell you what crush said:
- Takedown got nerfed from prone to a stun cause the IBS follow up after a prone was ignoring deflect, and that was not the way they wanted it to work, and they wanted IBS to actually take into account deflect and tenacity
- Takedown got nerfed in damage cause on destroyers with full stacks it could hit for over 8-10k and it was too much. And they wanted people to focus more on "utility" rather than "damage" with takedown.
If you notice, no GWF, no matter how skilled, ever used direct takedown to open his rotation.
In module 1 it was Roar+ takedown+ IBS against TRs/ CWs, and bravery slotted. Roar to root from range, takedown follow up as a requirement to land IBS successfully.
In module 2 it was FLS-Takedown-IBS, same reason, but FLS got way more damage than roar and prone
In module 3 Destroyer proved to be better due to buffs, just needed to be geared to survive. Roar+ takedown with reduced cooldown proved way better. Even if Roar was not bugged, would still be better for a destroyer due tu shorter cooldown and FLS getting nerfed in damage.
Since the beginning GWFs always got to use a ranged CC move to open. And the reason is exactly that: IBS requires takedown to land. Takedown is not reliable to open your rotation except against GFs with less mobility. But against a CW, a perma TR, a HR, a takedown to open is not reliable.
Want a proof: ask any GWF player you see as skilled to avoid using FLS or Roar on live and fight an equally skilled CW, HR or TR. Even as OP as mod3 GWF can be, he will lose 100%, my prediction.
The roration that come closer to be good without a ranged CC move is, to me, Punishing charge, takedown, IBS. And i still think it's still far from being good enough.
it was just a reply of what you said baka, after you said "why we need prone? " why we have takedown with 7 sec and 3 sec if we miss" geez, nvm .. wastin time
u guys crying over sprint this and that , if GWF goes for stamina regenration build we will loose many things , while our sprint does provide CC immunity , its the same for all the classes shift ability , while other class shift ability are immune to dmg too , except GF but they got 80% dmg reduction after the dmg interact with DR , so they will take negligible dmg .
on the other hand we only get 30% DR which is nothing , we take 5k dmg from every class in our sprint from ur each encounter while u take 0.
and if u cry about unstoppable , dont u have ur shield more DR than a destoyer unstoppable , and u do more dmg than a destro , the only reason uGWF was able to rush u was cause of unstoppable which is nerfed. after 33% health loss we get determination to use unstoppable and after using it we still take dmg making our health drop about 10% more , so u r saying we loose 40%(approx) health just to stand in front of ranger class i.e. 1 Deep prejudice u have.
GF with tank spec do now more dmg than a destro GWF while still having the DR in upper limits.
for what i've seen right now, a build for gwf should sentinel with str/con or con/wis and artefacts with control resist or stamina regeneration but everythin depends on steely grace that class feature can help alot in pvp.
Mann, what are you talking about? Since when can any GWF sprint for 27 seconds straight?
Besides, threatening rush is the only mobility power that GWF's have. GF's have Lunging Strike, Bull Charge, AND Threatening Rush (with no cooldowns!!). HR's have their slightly weaker version of threatening rush; it's the melee counter-part to split shot.
Class with best mobility goes to GF.
That won't stop anyone from using it. Just like no TR's will stop using their cheesy SE.
No. Our complaint is that we will have NO good stuff.
I'm sorry but gf do not have best mobility at all.....we have very slow movement and no dodges, only lunge, bull and threatening rush, that does not make us the highest mobility class and even so they are all offensive. What happens when our guard is down ? we can bull charge away lol we just slowly try to escape then die.
I would say hr easily has the best mobility in the game, having many shifts then having marauders escape dashing back 20 feet and then marauders rush that can launch you at an enemy from a huge distance plus the melee version of split shot. They have most dodges and ways to escape or enter combat.
Even rogue have way way more move than a gf, a rogue can get 80% move speed lol they can run faster than a rare mount xD plus some good teliporting encounters.
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