the point is you may be able to do that damage but your sacraficing alot to slot ITF you wont have that encounter power as an attack also during a pvp match SM vs IV GF's i still am going to go IV without ITF on SM your not nearly mobile enough to get anywhere the loss of threatening rush is just to much.
and you cant compare using ITF because without it you would hit for way less dmg.
Actually no, Im not losing anything. You see not every PVP GF runs with 2 prones and a LS/AoD. I run with BC/LS/KC on LIVE so with ITF taking the place of KC I'll do similar damage + be more mobile + gain more AP + avoid the KC risk...
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
If you read what he wrote and the post you quoted (lol) from crush, you will notice that:
GWF mentioned is destroyer= DPS spec
Power tested: IBS--->not in the list of damage nerfs crush posted
If you read what you quote (lol) crush explain how they nerfed threat rush, frontline surge, and buffed WMS and flourish.
You read IBS in the list? No.
IBS damage is the same on IV or SM. And hits HARDER than flourish on GWF.
What emilemo found out with his tests is that a flourish on a GF now hits for more than a IBS on a GWF.
I'll quote emilemo again cause it fits you perfectly:
Read the stuff you comment...
I read it and He was Iron Vanguard which is the Tank Paragon! NOT A DPS PARAGON! Compare the GF damage in IV to your damage in IV then at least thats a fair comparison!!!!!
You want DPS spec for it!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Can we have this thread cleansed of folks who only experience the GWF on the wrong edge of the sword please ? You can sugar coat it or try to deny it but it makes no difference. In MOD 4 a PVP GF will have more single target damage then a PVP GWF and that is a fact. Like I said I play both so Im happy for the GF, the other one tho is gettin' killed plain and simple.
I love a challenge but playing a GWF in Mod 4 will be like playing vs the House and you know what they say bout the House
Only if the GF specs for a DPS SM and the GWF specs IV the NON DPS spec. By the way no where does it say "ONLY GWF's Discuss in this topic"
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Only if the GF specs for a DPS SM and the GWF specs IV the NON DPS spec. By the way no where does it say "ONLY GWF's Discuss in this topic"
Maybe we dont have a sign saying "GWFs only" but you are not contributing at all. You are simply doing what you've been doing ever since Devs first started talking about Mod 4 changes - hatin' on the GWF. Why cant you be more open minded ?
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I read it and He was Iron Vanguard which is the Tank Paragon! NOT A DPS PARAGON! Compare the GF damage in IV to your damage in IV then at least thats a fair comparison!!!!!
You want DPS spec for it!
What you don't understand about "IBS damage is the same on IV or SM".
It's the same, exact power. It's not like if you are IV IBS hits for less, and if you are SM it hits for more.
Seriously, do i have to argue about such a simple thing? I'm tired of your straw-man arguments. You've no knowledge at all and you write nonsense.
Now, read carefully:
emilemo have this GWF, right. Well. Now, he goes either IV or SM, he gets IBS. The exact, same IBS. With exact same damage. Then he TESTS IBS DAMAGE. Which is the same on IV and SM.
Can you read and have basic comprehension skills please?
these are the differences, stop. In PvP, on live, let's take a PvP destroyer. He goes for roar, takedown, IBS.
These power are the same, same damage. Would he be IV or SM, he would deal the exact, SAME DAMAGE.
Emilemo tested IBS, the hardest hitting encounter. Which is THE SAME IN BOTH PATHS. A IBS from a IV or a SM deals the exact, same damage. You get it?
Now that i see how you lack such basic knowledge and logic, i understand many of your posts...
Once mark is working properly from tr for the gwf this will not be the case at all. And yes swordmaster for the gwf needs some love with the current status that it is in.
these are the differences, stop. In PvP, on live, let's take a PvP destroyer. He goes for roar, takedown, IBS.
These power are the same, same damage. Would he be IV or SM, he would deal the exact, SAME DAMAGE.
Emilemo tested IBS, the hardest hitting encounter. Which is THE SAME IN BOTH PATHS. A IBS from a IV or a SM deals the exact, same damage. You get it?
Now that i see how you lack such basic knowledge and logic, i understand many of your posts...
You make me laugh! Thats not the point what does the GWF do with Flourish Non crit and Crit on a prone immune bear?????????????????????????????????????????????
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Can we have this thread cleansed of folks who only experience the GWF on the wrong edge of the sword please ? You can sugar coat it or try to deny it but it makes no difference. In MOD 4 a PVP GF will have more single target damage then a PVP GWF and that is a fact. Like I said I play both so Im happy for the GF, the other one tho is gettin' killed plain and simple.
I love a challenge but playing a GWF in Mod 4 will be like playing vs the House and you know what they say bout the House
Well TBH thats how GWF became unbalanced to start with. When others complained then the class was finally looked at. I think the feedback forums might be a sub-par way to balance the class because the ones who are testing have a natural bias to the class.
From my perspective having a 3 second stun on a 7 second cooldown is not really fair. But then you have GWF saying that is is useless and needs to be buffed.
Cryptic should look at the numbers and make the changes accordingly.
Also the very high end pvp community actually has a very good idea of the current state of balance, it might be a good idea to reach out to them or observe a high end premade match.
You make me laugh! Thats not the point what does the GWF do with Flourish Non crit and Crit on a prone immune bear?????????????????????????????????????????????
You've stopped making sense. And, yes, what pando says is true. SM isn't ONLY a DPS path, and vice versa.
Just being a swordmaster doesn't cause a GWF's non-paragon powers to hit harder.
your dps paragon (26 str/t3 weapon/8800 power)
flourish. less damage than ibs, same cooldown but have CONTROL.
to acess flourish feet you need spend 10 points in INSTIGATOR tree. and the same 10 points in destroyer to up your encounters damages by 10% using wms (marked by iv you will up for 8 "free"... or 20 now thanks to the GF).
steel blitz have the same damage by sure strike (useless for pvp obviously).
I really love the "wm" was the dps paragon (only crescendo is really nice) . but he need a nice buff for it. but it seems the dev suffers from the same delirium that players who never rolled one gwf ...
I really love the "wm" was the dps paragon (only crescendo is really nice) . but he need a nice buff for it. but it seems the dev suffers from the same delirium that players who never rolled one gwf ...
About 2 weeks left ...
I'm sure that only people who QQed about GWF were listened, nothing good will be done for Destroyer, and I'm pretty sure Instigator will not get anything. Better buff the CW nerfs because "Less DPS" to finally having a stronger CW.
You've stopped making sense. And, yes, what pando says is true. SM isn't ONLY a DPS path, and vice versa.
Just being a swordmaster doesn't cause a GWF's non-paragon powers to hit harder.
I think i'll stop replying to him. I don't understand if he's trolling us or if he really have issues understanding what people write...
Feels like talking to Crazy Dave from Plants vs Zombies.
You've stopped making sense. And, yes, what pando says is true. SM isn't ONLY a DPS path, and vice versa.
Just being a swordmaster doesn't cause a GWF's non-paragon powers to hit harder.
That's wrong.
IV used to be a CC/Tank paragon. A Shield Paragon. Where is the point if you deal high like SM with a Shield.
SM SHOULD BE a Burst/Sustain paragon with buffes like Lifesteal. A Sword Paragon. So if you chose that you would maximise your DPS.
But if Destroyer IV, it would be a little Hybrid with more Controls and more Tanking.
If Sentinel SM, it would be a Tank with quite good Burst.
In the future, what will be viable ? Sentinel IV clearly better than Sentinel SM, Destroyer SM, Destroyer IV
Because Sentinel gives huge Tanking and also huge damages (second feat +15% damages on Marked ennemies, 50% of power as damages for 2 great spells when it has this third feat, so each encounter power will deal between 4k-7k with AoE Encounters Powers without buffes and the Power bonuses while a Destroyer with buffes will deal 5k with AoE Encounter Powers like Not So Fast etc ... (10-11k with IBS) but without Tanking).
And Destroyer will also be hard to play. Why ? Considering the nerf of Determination Gain, Destroyer stacks only gains 1 per Attack and the buffes of GF, and with the Sentinel GWF, keeping the Destroyer +40% damages will be so hard : will need to take a lot of damages, will need to hit a lot during these 8 seconds, will need to get focused but GF will take all threat.
You've stopped making sense. And, yes, what pando says is true. SM isn't ONLY a DPS path, and vice versa.
Just being a swordmaster doesn't cause a GWF's non-paragon powers to hit harder.
he compared the damage with 2 classes on their possibly top damage instead of comparing the same abilities, he also provided no screen shots of such only his word... wink wink! I wanted to know first did he use IBS right off the bat on the bear did he get the bonus from Executioners style? There are other variables...
1) GWF LIVE - with full stacks of Destroyer + full stacks of D.Purpose + R.Madness + Mark + Greater PF = 13k non crit IBS and 27K crit IBS
He specified the GF had 5 stacks of reckless but did he make sure to gain every possible benefit including ES too? Was his mark still bugged at the time? I would like to know what the GWf's Flourish did for damage with all buffs on that same bear, irregardless of your tooltip viewing!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Will be interesting to see how sprint immunity plays out. Up until now GWFs have always been a pure stat machine. Either you have enough GS to survive and influence a fight or you're undergeared and can do absolutely nothing. Having zero defensive options out of Unstoppable pigeon-holed GWF playstyles into the headramming every complains about.
A 2k recovery Perma TR in all blues or an HR with any grim armor set can contribute a lot to a team without having to completely outgear the competition. GWF is an all-in class, so scaling back raw power in exchange for utility would help make GWFs more versatile and less reliant on gear.
One thing I'd like to see:
-Battlefury refreshes 3 Punishing Charges. Slotting both already means the GWF is giving up on major CC/Dmg potential. Letting these two skills synergize would given Destroyers the mobility to make up for decreased defense.
Will be interesting to see how sprint immunity plays out. Up until now GWFs have always been a pure stat machine. Either you have enough GS to survive and influence a fight or you're undergeared and can do absolutely nothing. Having zero defensive options out of Unstoppable pigeon-holed GWF playstyles into the headramming every complains about.
A 2k recovery Perma TR in all blues or an HR with any grim armor set can contribute a lot to a team without having to completely outgear the competition. GWF is an all-in class, so scaling back raw power in exchange for utility would help make GWFs more versatile and less reliant on gear.
One thing I'd like to see:
-Battlefury refreshes 3 Punishing Charges. Slotting both already means the GWF is giving up on major CC/Dmg potential. Letting these two skills synergize would given Destroyers the mobility to make up for decreased defense.
Not gonna work. I explain you why. I already tested punishing charge and the point is, you can follow with takedown and it's easily dodged. Or you can follow with FLS, but then you have to wait the huge cooldown to be over, and your increased mobility on destroyer is useless.
On preview right now using FLS-takedown-IBS you can nail dodging classes but the stun effect is too short and they dodge again after FLS before you reach them, even if you use Threat Rush.
Against tanks, let's say a GF, you can sprint behind them, but if they are good they'll anticipate and lock you up. Even if you manage to catch them, you just stun them and IBS (with devastating critical NOT WORKING RIGHT NOW) damage is significantly reduced right now. Almost halved. Only thing that allows a GWF to fight is, right now, that FLS is still a prone and you can still prone+IBS. Once it becomes stun+IBS, it will be even less powerful.
On the other side, GWFs got a huge nerf in determination gain which means they will go A LOT less Unstoppable and unstoppable will protect them for less. Other classes were brought in line with Mod3 GWF, and GWF was put in line with mod3 GF. Pretty much.
Not much tactics was used in these fights...no timing vs the gf at all and since gf is strong now gwf needs to use some skill.
Wasting all prones on tr while in ITC too and just standing still or close to the rogue so he could use duelist flurry....
but as for hr they are still bet pvp class so yeah 1v1 they win unless the other class gets very lucky.
crixus, talking about tactics...i already got fights with other GFs and i actually used tactics. Few minutes ago:
Me: 17k GS, 40k HP, 45% DR, 30% deflect, 4.5k power, 1.6k ArP plus 24 CON, 22 str exc...My basic live toon with rearranged build.
GF was around 18k GS
I used all the tools i could. Rotation: punishing charge for mobility, FLS for prone (will be a stun), IBS. Used sprint as defense, plus punishing charge to evade and both eventually to get to the GF back, FLS fast, IBS.
He was just standing, barely moving, waiting for me, not able even 1 time to turn fast enough to block my movements.
Still, the times he nailed me, he dealt like 2x my damage.
Main problems i recon are:
1) devastating critical not working. This means, 15% less critical severity
2) while all other classes got a buff, the GWF got nerfed in all 3 areas. Can get around mobility and survivability with skills. But prone+IBS was the main and only source of damage. FLS with tenacity often doesn't give enough time to then close the gap and IBS in time. Takedown was the only good way to land IBS after a prone. No prone cuts IBS damage A LOT. Which would be balanced IF other classes didn't get such boosts in DPS.
Right now the situation is pretty much reverted. If i am outclassing an enemy with my footwork and skill, i should destroy him. Not like i work hard to hit him 20 times, evade most of his attacks and put some strategy into the fight, and with 5 lazy hits he can deal me the same amount of damage.
If i have to make a comparison, it's like being back to module 1, when GWFs were useless big chunks of meat hitting people with a wet noodle. The difference is, now you also have to work hard to even survive. Which is good. If, when we actually catch the enemy, we would eventually land top-DPS (which is what the class is supposed to do).
GWFs must, for sure, be able to prone-IBS to deal enough damage to compete with other classes. Survivability has been nerfed, need back at least takedown prone (EVERY CLASS CAN PRONE EXCEPT GWFs...i think we can agree this is not right at all) and some damage.
crixus, talking about tactics...i already got fights with other GFs and i actually used tactics. Few minutes ago:
Me: 17k GS, 40k HP, 45% DR, 30% deflect, 4.5k power, 1.6k ArP plus 24 CON, 22 str exc...My basic live toon with rearranged build.
GF was around 18k GS
I used all the tools i could. Rotation: punishing charge for mobility, FLS for prone (will be a stun), IBS. Used sprint as defense, plus punishing charge to evade and both eventually to get to the GF back, FLS fast, IBS.
He was just standing, barely moving, waiting for me, not able even 1 time to turn fast enough to block my movements.
Still, the times he nailed me, he dealt like 2x my damage.
Main problems i recon are:
1) devastating critical not working. This means, 15% less critical severity
2) while all other classes got a buff, the GWF got nerfed in all 3 areas. Can get around mobility and survivability with skills. But prone+IBS was the main and only source of damage. FLS with tenacity often doesn't give enough time to then close the gap and IBS in time. Takedown was the only good way to land IBS after a prone. No prone cuts IBS damage A LOT. Which would be balanced IF other classes didn't get such boosts in DPS.
Right now the situation is pretty much reverted. If i am outclassing an enemy with my footwork and skill, i should destroy him. Not like i work hard to hit him 20 times, evade most of his attacks and put some strategy into the fight, and with 5 lazy hits he can deal me the same amount of damage.
If i have to make a comparison, it's like being back to module 1, when GWFs were useless big chunks of meat hitting people with a wet noodle. The difference is, now you also have to work hard to even survive. Which is good. If, when we actually catch the enemy, we would eventually land top-DPS (which is what the class is supposed to do).
GWFs must, for sure, be able to prone-IBS to deal enough damage to compete with other classes. Survivability has been nerfed, need back at least takedown prone (EVERY CLASS CAN PRONE EXCEPT GWFs...i think we can agree this is not right at all) and some damage.
I understand in some ways for gwf vs gf now the gwf seems to have a few less choices to win. I just find it annoying with the players who don't use tactics then complain.
Anyway atm gwf can only run and wait for gf to lower shield and timing perfect before getting in moves or getting lucky and quickly sprinting behind the gf so i think gwf needs something new to even it out and hopefully that will happen before release.
as long as gf don't get nerfed to being totally pointless and dieing in 1 second or gwf being buffed back to unkillable again then I'm happy, both should be as balanced as each other but gf having more survival and gwf having more dps.
I understand in some ways for gwf vs gf now the gwf seems to have a few less choices to win. I just find it annoying with the players who don't use tactics then complain.
Anyway atm gwf can only run and wait for gf to lower shield and timing perfect before getting in moves or getting lucky and quickly sprinting behind the gf so i think gwf needs something new to even it out and hopefully that will happen before release.
as long as gf don't get nerfed to being totally pointless and dieing in 1 second or gwf being buffed back to unkillable again then I'm happy, both should be as balanced as each other but gf having more survival and gwf having more dps.
man, what tactics you talkin about, we dont have 1 prone and our stun sux...how do you suppose to get a opening to do damage? when GF can block any time and we can't see that or use supremacy of steel, or prone/stun ... there is no time to land a hit...so keep dreaming about your "tactics", and majority of GF uses lock on targe on scrool, so even if i get behind them, still can't land a IBS.
>gwf being buffed back to unkillable again
what tha hell you talkin, gwf without ROAR is very killable... so even the GWF from LIVE atm without ROAR , maybe it's balanced against GF from PREVIEW.. but the GWF from preview isn't balanced at all ..
well with the upcoming changes stun now lasts 3 seconds so im sure that will be enough time to land the takedown ibs combo
Which is still gimped in damage compared to the prone-IBS combo. Also, it will not be 3 seconds since you've to take tenacity cc resistance into account plus other resistances. Now also consider that IBS animation alone takes around more than 1 second. Just the animation.
Also, IBS now hits for a lot less and can be deflected. Now, as i said, it would be fine IF the other classes didn't get a boost in damage and GWFs had other moves dealing damage. But with both FLS and takedown damage nerfed to nothingness, it means that 90% of a GWF damage comes from that IBS.
Also: CWs can prone, Warlocks can prone, GFs can prone, HRs can prone too. And somehow, GWFs can't. Which means, a HR with 2 blades and a bow can send the GWF down on the ground, but if the GWF crushes his huge weapon on the HR's skull, he just stuns. Sounds reasonable...
As crixus said, GFs must be tankier than GWFs, and GWFs should hit for more. As i explained above, from my testing i see a similary geared GFs hitting way more than my one and only DPS encounter. Emilemo too, tested IBS on GWF vs Flourish on GF, and the GF could hit for more.
Some balance is needed there.
Sprint also, if devs want it really in line with other dodges, should be more responsive and take into account the fact that it isn't just a dodge, but also must be used as a gap closer for a melee class.
Also: right now Unstoppable is double nerfed. The DR AND the fact that determination gain is not just "normalized". It's so slow that a GWF must lose a big chunk of HP to even use it. Around 15-17k HP, from my test, to fill the bar for a 8 seconds unstoppable. Now if you can name another class that must lose 15k HP to use their class mechanic...
Nerfing heavily both determination gain and Unstoppable is a bit overkill, expecially, again, considering how other classes are getting buffed.
Raising the stuns to 3 seconds will do little for balance in PvP. Will make GWFs able to CC a bit more (right now, only FLS bugged and still proning allows CC. Takedown stun is useless, feels like no CC at all), but gap in damage due to nerfs will still be there and the same goes for double nerf on Unstoppable.
Also, 1 feat is completely broken. Devastating critical seem to do not apply the 15% crit severity bonus. Which, if not fixed, is another shadow nerf on damage.
Which is still gimped in damage compared to the prone-IBS combo. Also, it will not be 3 seconds since you've to take tenacity cc resistance into account plus other resistances. Now also consider that IBS animation alone takes around more than 1 second. Just the animation.
Also, IBS now hits for a lot less and can be deflected. Now, as i said, it would be fine IF the other classes didn't get a boost in damage and GWFs had other moves dealing damage. But with both FLS and takedown damage nerfed to nothingness, it means that 90% of a GWF damage comes from that IBS.
Also: CWs can prone, Warlocks can prone, GFs can prone, HRs can prone too. And somehow, GWFs can't. Which means, a HR with 2 blades and a bow can send the GWF down on the ground, but if the GWF crushes his huge weapon on the HR's skull, he just stuns. Sounds reasonable...
As crixus said, GFs must be tankier than GWFs, and GWFs should hit for more. As i explained above, from my testing i see a similary geared GFs hitting way more than my one and only DPS encounter. Emilemo too, tested IBS on GWF vs Flourish on GF, and the GF could hit for more.
Some balance is needed there.
Sprint also, if devs want it really in line with other dodges, should be more responsive and take into account the fact that it isn't just a dodge, but also must be used as a gap closer for a melee class.
Also: right now Unstoppable is double nerfed. The DR AND the fact that determination gain is not just "normalized". It's so slow that a GWF must lose a big chunk of HP to even use it. Around 15-17k HP, from my test, to fill the bar for a 8 seconds unstoppable. Now if you can name another class that must lose 15k HP to use their class mechanic...
Nerfing heavily both determination gain and Unstoppable is a bit overkill, expecially, again, considering how other classes are getting buffed.
Raising the stuns to 3 seconds will do little for balance in PvP. Will make GWFs able to CC a bit more (right now, only FLS bugged and still proning allows CC. Takedown stun is useless, feels like no CC at all), but gap in damage due to nerfs will still be there and the same goes for double nerf on Unstoppable.
Also, 1 feat is completely broken. Devastating critical seem to do not apply the 15% crit severity bonus. Which, if not fixed, is another shadow nerf on damage.
what are you blabberin, it's clear that for CW/hr/gf/tr point of view GWF must die on a single encounter... thats what balance are for them... to give a rotation to kill a GWF ? whaaa it's too much man... only 1 skill should be used. **** startin to hate this digglets even more with their OP class and come postin **** about GWF ... i wonder why no one says anythin about TR, maybe they feel pity about them , because in the past they whinned alot about them, now is GWF time to suffer... geezas christ, what updates...
Also: CWs can prone, Warlocks can prone, GFs can prone, HRs can prone too. And somehow, GWFs can't. Which means, a HR with 2 blades and a bow can send the GWF down on the ground, but if the GWF crushes his huge weapon on the HR's skull, he just stuns. Sounds reasonable...
CW prone is the hardest to land in the game; Warlock prone requires 2 powers and does zero damage unless timed to perfection; HR prone does low damage and stuns the HR for 1s. None of these prones are as powerful in PvP as those the GF has or that GWF used to. And none offer the huge follow-up damage potential.
As for the comparison between HR and GWF - magic, dude.
LOL i got hit with a 16k IBS with 40% dr, astral shield and hallowed ground from full health, now i come here and i see this gwf's complaining that the cannot chain prone-one rotation kill you, seriously guys LEARN SOME SKILL and you'll be fine or at least stop complaining on this useless post, go on the feedback thread and leave your opinion there
Comments
Actually no, Im not losing anything. You see not every PVP GF runs with 2 prones and a LS/AoD. I run with BC/LS/KC on LIVE so with ITF taking the place of KC I'll do similar damage + be more mobile + gain more AP + avoid the KC risk...
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I read it and He was Iron Vanguard which is the Tank Paragon! NOT A DPS PARAGON! Compare the GF damage in IV to your damage in IV then at least thats a fair comparison!!!!!
You want DPS spec for it!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
If IBS gets nerfed GWF is dead for AoE PVE.
Only if the GF specs for a DPS SM and the GWF specs IV the NON DPS spec. By the way no where does it say "ONLY GWF's Discuss in this topic"
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Maybe we dont have a sign saying "GWFs only" but you are not contributing at all. You are simply doing what you've been doing ever since Devs first started talking about Mod 4 changes - hatin' on the GWF. Why cant you be more open minded ?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
What you don't understand about "IBS damage is the same on IV or SM".
It's the same, exact power. It's not like if you are IV IBS hits for less, and if you are SM it hits for more.
Seriously, do i have to argue about such a simple thing? I'm tired of your straw-man arguments. You've no knowledge at all and you write nonsense.
Now, read carefully:
emilemo have this GWF, right. Well. Now, he goes either IV or SM, he gets IBS. The exact, same IBS. With exact same damage. Then he TESTS IBS DAMAGE. Which is the same on IV and SM.
Can you read and have basic comprehension skills please?
You really are clueless...
Difference between SM and IV on GWF:
IV:
- threatening rush
- ferocious reaction
- frontline surge
- enduring warrior
- trample of the fallen
- Indomitable strenght
SM:
- flourish
- WMS
- steel defense
- Crescendo
- steel grace
- don't remember the 3rd passive
these are the differences, stop. In PvP, on live, let's take a PvP destroyer. He goes for roar, takedown, IBS.
These power are the same, same damage. Would he be IV or SM, he would deal the exact, SAME DAMAGE.
Emilemo tested IBS, the hardest hitting encounter. Which is THE SAME IN BOTH PATHS. A IBS from a IV or a SM deals the exact, same damage. You get it?
Now that i see how you lack such basic knowledge and logic, i understand many of your posts...
omg blasphemy a gf is speaking up for gwfs!!!!!
You make me laugh! Thats not the point what does the GWF do with Flourish Non crit and Crit on a prone immune bear?????????????????????????????????????????????
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Well TBH thats how GWF became unbalanced to start with. When others complained then the class was finally looked at. I think the feedback forums might be a sub-par way to balance the class because the ones who are testing have a natural bias to the class.
From my perspective having a 3 second stun on a 7 second cooldown is not really fair. But then you have GWF saying that is is useless and needs to be buffed.
Cryptic should look at the numbers and make the changes accordingly.
Also the very high end pvp community actually has a very good idea of the current state of balance, it might be a good idea to reach out to them or observe a high end premade match.
You've stopped making sense. And, yes, what pando says is true. SM isn't ONLY a DPS path, and vice versa.
Just being a swordmaster doesn't cause a GWF's non-paragon powers to hit harder.
flourish. less damage than ibs, same cooldown but have CONTROL.
to acess flourish feet you need spend 10 points in INSTIGATOR tree. and the same 10 points in destroyer to up your encounters damages by 10% using wms (marked by iv you will up for 8 "free"... or 20 now thanks to the GF).
steel blitz have the same damage by sure strike (useless for pvp obviously).
I really love the "wm" was the dps paragon (only crescendo is really nice) . but he need a nice buff for it. but it seems the dev suffers from the same delirium that players who never rolled one gwf ...
About 2 weeks left ...
I'm sure that only people who QQed about GWF were listened, nothing good will be done for Destroyer, and I'm pretty sure Instigator will not get anything. Better buff the CW nerfs because "Less DPS" to finally having a stronger CW.
I think i'll stop replying to him. I don't understand if he's trolling us or if he really have issues understanding what people write...
Feels like talking to Crazy Dave from Plants vs Zombies.
That's wrong.
IV used to be a CC/Tank paragon. A Shield Paragon. Where is the point if you deal high like SM with a Shield.
SM SHOULD BE a Burst/Sustain paragon with buffes like Lifesteal. A Sword Paragon. So if you chose that you would maximise your DPS.
But if Destroyer IV, it would be a little Hybrid with more Controls and more Tanking.
If Sentinel SM, it would be a Tank with quite good Burst.
In the future, what will be viable ? Sentinel IV clearly better than Sentinel SM, Destroyer SM, Destroyer IV
Because Sentinel gives huge Tanking and also huge damages (second feat +15% damages on Marked ennemies, 50% of power as damages for 2 great spells when it has this third feat, so each encounter power will deal between 4k-7k with AoE Encounters Powers without buffes and the Power bonuses while a Destroyer with buffes will deal 5k with AoE Encounter Powers like Not So Fast etc ... (10-11k with IBS) but without Tanking).
And Destroyer will also be hard to play. Why ? Considering the nerf of Determination Gain, Destroyer stacks only gains 1 per Attack and the buffes of GF, and with the Sentinel GWF, keeping the Destroyer +40% damages will be so hard : will need to take a lot of damages, will need to hit a lot during these 8 seconds, will need to get focused but GF will take all threat.
he compared the damage with 2 classes on their possibly top damage instead of comparing the same abilities, he also provided no screen shots of such only his word... wink wink! I wanted to know first did he use IBS right off the bat on the bear did he get the bonus from Executioners style? There are other variables...
1) GWF LIVE - with full stacks of Destroyer + full stacks of D.Purpose + R.Madness + Mark + Greater PF = 13k non crit IBS and 27K crit IBS
He specified the GF had 5 stacks of reckless but did he make sure to gain every possible benefit including ES too? Was his mark still bugged at the time? I would like to know what the GWf's Flourish did for damage with all buffs on that same bear, irregardless of your tooltip viewing!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
A 2k recovery Perma TR in all blues or an HR with any grim armor set can contribute a lot to a team without having to completely outgear the competition. GWF is an all-in class, so scaling back raw power in exchange for utility would help make GWFs more versatile and less reliant on gear.
One thing I'd like to see:
-Battlefury refreshes 3 Punishing Charges. Slotting both already means the GWF is giving up on major CC/Dmg potential. Letting these two skills synergize would given Destroyers the mobility to make up for decreased defense.
Not gonna work. I explain you why. I already tested punishing charge and the point is, you can follow with takedown and it's easily dodged. Or you can follow with FLS, but then you have to wait the huge cooldown to be over, and your increased mobility on destroyer is useless.
On preview right now using FLS-takedown-IBS you can nail dodging classes but the stun effect is too short and they dodge again after FLS before you reach them, even if you use Threat Rush.
Against tanks, let's say a GF, you can sprint behind them, but if they are good they'll anticipate and lock you up. Even if you manage to catch them, you just stun them and IBS (with devastating critical NOT WORKING RIGHT NOW) damage is significantly reduced right now. Almost halved. Only thing that allows a GWF to fight is, right now, that FLS is still a prone and you can still prone+IBS. Once it becomes stun+IBS, it will be even less powerful.
On the other side, GWFs got a huge nerf in determination gain which means they will go A LOT less Unstoppable and unstoppable will protect them for less. Other classes were brought in line with Mod3 GWF, and GWF was put in line with mod3 GF. Pretty much.
Not much tactics was used in these fights...no timing vs the gf at all and since gf is strong now gwf needs to use some skill.
Wasting all prones on tr while in ITC too and just standing still or close to the rogue so he could use duelist flurry....
but as for hr they are still bet pvp class so yeah 1v1 they win unless the other class gets very lucky.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
crixus, talking about tactics...i already got fights with other GFs and i actually used tactics. Few minutes ago:
Me: 17k GS, 40k HP, 45% DR, 30% deflect, 4.5k power, 1.6k ArP plus 24 CON, 22 str exc...My basic live toon with rearranged build.
GF was around 18k GS
I used all the tools i could. Rotation: punishing charge for mobility, FLS for prone (will be a stun), IBS. Used sprint as defense, plus punishing charge to evade and both eventually to get to the GF back, FLS fast, IBS.
He was just standing, barely moving, waiting for me, not able even 1 time to turn fast enough to block my movements.
Still, the times he nailed me, he dealt like 2x my damage.
Main problems i recon are:
1) devastating critical not working. This means, 15% less critical severity
2) while all other classes got a buff, the GWF got nerfed in all 3 areas. Can get around mobility and survivability with skills. But prone+IBS was the main and only source of damage. FLS with tenacity often doesn't give enough time to then close the gap and IBS in time. Takedown was the only good way to land IBS after a prone. No prone cuts IBS damage A LOT. Which would be balanced IF other classes didn't get such boosts in DPS.
Right now the situation is pretty much reverted. If i am outclassing an enemy with my footwork and skill, i should destroy him. Not like i work hard to hit him 20 times, evade most of his attacks and put some strategy into the fight, and with 5 lazy hits he can deal me the same amount of damage.
If i have to make a comparison, it's like being back to module 1, when GWFs were useless big chunks of meat hitting people with a wet noodle. The difference is, now you also have to work hard to even survive. Which is good. If, when we actually catch the enemy, we would eventually land top-DPS (which is what the class is supposed to do).
GWFs must, for sure, be able to prone-IBS to deal enough damage to compete with other classes. Survivability has been nerfed, need back at least takedown prone (EVERY CLASS CAN PRONE EXCEPT GWFs...i think we can agree this is not right at all) and some damage.
I understand in some ways for gwf vs gf now the gwf seems to have a few less choices to win. I just find it annoying with the players who don't use tactics then complain.
Anyway atm gwf can only run and wait for gf to lower shield and timing perfect before getting in moves or getting lucky and quickly sprinting behind the gf so i think gwf needs something new to even it out and hopefully that will happen before release.
as long as gf don't get nerfed to being totally pointless and dieing in 1 second or gwf being buffed back to unkillable again then I'm happy, both should be as balanced as each other but gf having more survival and gwf having more dps.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
man, what tactics you talkin about, we dont have 1 prone and our stun sux...how do you suppose to get a opening to do damage? when GF can block any time and we can't see that or use supremacy of steel, or prone/stun ... there is no time to land a hit...so keep dreaming about your "tactics", and majority of GF uses lock on targe on scrool, so even if i get behind them, still can't land a IBS.
>gwf being buffed back to unkillable again
what tha hell you talkin, gwf without ROAR is very killable... so even the GWF from LIVE atm without ROAR , maybe it's balanced against GF from PREVIEW.. but the GWF from preview isn't balanced at all ..
that if the GF can't use shift while stunned..
Which is still gimped in damage compared to the prone-IBS combo. Also, it will not be 3 seconds since you've to take tenacity cc resistance into account plus other resistances. Now also consider that IBS animation alone takes around more than 1 second. Just the animation.
Also, IBS now hits for a lot less and can be deflected. Now, as i said, it would be fine IF the other classes didn't get a boost in damage and GWFs had other moves dealing damage. But with both FLS and takedown damage nerfed to nothingness, it means that 90% of a GWF damage comes from that IBS.
Also: CWs can prone, Warlocks can prone, GFs can prone, HRs can prone too. And somehow, GWFs can't. Which means, a HR with 2 blades and a bow can send the GWF down on the ground, but if the GWF crushes his huge weapon on the HR's skull, he just stuns. Sounds reasonable...
As crixus said, GFs must be tankier than GWFs, and GWFs should hit for more. As i explained above, from my testing i see a similary geared GFs hitting way more than my one and only DPS encounter. Emilemo too, tested IBS on GWF vs Flourish on GF, and the GF could hit for more.
Some balance is needed there.
Sprint also, if devs want it really in line with other dodges, should be more responsive and take into account the fact that it isn't just a dodge, but also must be used as a gap closer for a melee class.
Also: right now Unstoppable is double nerfed. The DR AND the fact that determination gain is not just "normalized". It's so slow that a GWF must lose a big chunk of HP to even use it. Around 15-17k HP, from my test, to fill the bar for a 8 seconds unstoppable. Now if you can name another class that must lose 15k HP to use their class mechanic...
Nerfing heavily both determination gain and Unstoppable is a bit overkill, expecially, again, considering how other classes are getting buffed.
Raising the stuns to 3 seconds will do little for balance in PvP. Will make GWFs able to CC a bit more (right now, only FLS bugged and still proning allows CC. Takedown stun is useless, feels like no CC at all), but gap in damage due to nerfs will still be there and the same goes for double nerf on Unstoppable.
Also, 1 feat is completely broken. Devastating critical seem to do not apply the 15% crit severity bonus. Which, if not fixed, is another shadow nerf on damage.
what are you blabberin, it's clear that for CW/hr/gf/tr point of view GWF must die on a single encounter... thats what balance are for them... to give a rotation to kill a GWF ? whaaa it's too much man... only 1 skill should be used. **** startin to hate this digglets even more with their OP class and come postin **** about GWF ... i wonder why no one says anythin about TR, maybe they feel pity about them , because in the past they whinned alot about them, now is GWF time to suffer... geezas christ, what updates...
As for the comparison between HR and GWF - magic, dude.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
We can't! We cannot use any ability while stunned / disabled can't even pot...
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Stun
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!