I'm not up to speed on the lore so I have to ask - what's stopping the BIG nasty villains from coming out now (or whenever they feel like) though? Fear? Are the gods and their counterparts having a cold war or something?
Kind of. Elminster is a Major Player(tm) and has been for quite some time. At his level you have some of the most powerful beings in Faerun/Toril, all of them with some very long-term agendas, and it's kind of down to a cold war chess game amongst them. When one of them moves overtly the rest of them take notice and pretty much have to move to check or take advantage of whatever the others are doing.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Elminster was not a fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard. He was a 20thlvl mage until greenwood decided all of a sudden he had to be all that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Elminster is a 2bit copy of gandalf and to say otherwise is making yourself look stupid. He even copied gandalf by all of a sudden using a sword. Greenwood, TSR, and WOTC have retconned elminster and the forgottenrealms so much its tragic.
. . . Actually, him being alll classes (including psionic) dates back to very early dragon magazines. One forgets that Ed. Greenwood made the realms up over 50 years ago as a child and on into adult-hood. Keep in mind that at this time, there was only The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings triology. The Silmarillion wasn't published until 1977 and by that time Ed was already involved with TSR and penning the Realms for them, which then began appearing in Dragon Magazines in 1979, but he had already written out decades ago. The Campaign itself was published in 1987, some years later.
. . . So while I am sure Ed Greenwood drew some inspiration from The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings Trilogy as a kid reading them (as any of us geeks probably would or did), to say he copied Gandalf is an uneducated insult. He had no access to the Silmarillion growing up, as it wouldn't be published until his late 20's. Of course TSR is going to eat up the tales of an old wizard mage (That was the big thing, still is in society really, it's a hot ticket item to market and with Tolkien having Gandalf, darn right TSR is going to market Elminster). So seriously think about the reality of things before making such statements.
. . . Furthermore, compare them, please do. The only things they have in common are they are both male, both old and white-beared, both in pointy hats, both love the pipe, both wield sword and staff, and both conveniently "forget things." Now think for a moment, what does describe? Merlin. So, if you're going to say Elminster is a 2bit copy, then that means Gandalf is too, for they both fit our society's sterotype for elderly male wizards.
. . . Now, if you compare their personalities, the forgetfulness aside - they are nothing a like. Besides, I don't ever recall Gandlaf being female (Elmara), nor becoming incorporeal, nor inhabiting his own daughter's body, nor walking the Nine Hells naked. I'll stop as to not provoke spoilers for those who haven't, but I do wonder, have you read the Elminster novels?
Merlin? You're joking right? Merlin was created in the Middle Ages and thus several centuries before tobacco, thus impossible to be anywhere near a pipe, and I've yet to see any picture or description of him wielding swords. Being involved with Excalibur et al doesn't count... So no, your over generalised description of Gandalf, and subsequently Elminster does not on any level bring Merlin to mind.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Merlin? You're joking right? Merlin was created in the Middle Ages and thus several centuries before tobacco, thus impossible to be anywhere near a pipe, and I've yet to see any picture or description of him wielding swords. Being involved with Excalibur et al doesn't count... So no, your over generalised description of Gandalf, and subsequently Elminster does not on any level bring Merlin to mind.
Sorry, I've seen and read a lot.. a lot on Merlin. "Merlin" actually pre-dates the Middle Ages and has been imagined in so many ways, across the globe by so many ancient civilizations, from shaman to warrior, to druid, to mage and more... I guess with all the info in my head, I see can see how both wizards, and any other elderly magi figure, could have derived from inspirations stemming back to the earliest records of such fables.
What Zeb is driving at is that they're *all* derived from the same archetypal figure... and there's NOTHING wrong with that.
Yes and no. In terms of visual derivation there is obviously a clear link between both Gandlaf and Elminster and both do tend toward a more classic, Woden stylised, vision of a wizard. Merlin, being a much older figure, had gone through numerous stlyings over the centuries. Thus visually the more modern renderings of Merlin are likely influenced by as opposed to influencing the classic wizard look.
In terms of general background there is a significant difference between the 3. Merlin (primarily welsh/Gaelic in derivation) is a composite of three older figures, with the classic version of him being a 'cambion' and having an inherent shape hanging ability with the bulk of his abilities derived from his heritage. Gandalf (owing more toward Woden and thus Anglo-Saxon/Germanic/Nordic in derivation), is the mortal incarnation of Tolkein's version of an angel, and his abilities are entirely limited by those obtainable by mortal man, then there is Elminster who is a mortal spell caster being granted near immortality by the goddess of magic.
In terms of fantasy drawing inspiration from itself, I have absolutely no issue with. To a certain extent I would see it as very complimentary.
A world to defend
A city to protect
innocents to save
"Why?" They ask "they hate you"
We're heroes it's what we do.
*patiently waiting on Paragon City*
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
You can debate all day what was the original Archetype...
Doesn't really matter...
They are still the same Archetype. Even Galdalf's title The Grey Wanderer is actually a reference to Woden/Odin.
Every society going back has some sort of Magi meddling with the affairs of state providing wisdom and aid when needed. And if you didn't catch that the word magic itself is derived from this ancient archetype.
You can debate who was the original all day long. It's an effort in futility and pointlessness.
It's truly like me saying this text is pink and you responding no it's desert rose.
Comments
Kind of. Elminster is a Major Player(tm) and has been for quite some time. At his level you have some of the most powerful beings in Faerun/Toril, all of them with some very long-term agendas, and it's kind of down to a cold war chess game amongst them. When one of them moves overtly the rest of them take notice and pretty much have to move to check or take advantage of whatever the others are doing.
. . . So while I am sure Ed Greenwood drew some inspiration from The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings Trilogy as a kid reading them (as any of us geeks probably would or did), to say he copied Gandalf is an uneducated insult. He had no access to the Silmarillion growing up, as it wouldn't be published until his late 20's. Of course TSR is going to eat up the tales of an old wizard mage (That was the big thing, still is in society really, it's a hot ticket item to market and with Tolkien having Gandalf, darn right TSR is going to market Elminster). So seriously think about the reality of things before making such statements.
. . . Furthermore, compare them, please do. The only things they have in common are they are both male, both old and white-beared, both in pointy hats, both love the pipe, both wield sword and staff, and both conveniently "forget things." Now think for a moment, what does describe? Merlin. So, if you're going to say Elminster is a 2bit copy, then that means Gandalf is too, for they both fit our society's sterotype for elderly male wizards.
. . . Now, if you compare their personalities, the forgetfulness aside - they are nothing a like. Besides, I don't ever recall Gandlaf being female (Elmara), nor becoming incorporeal, nor inhabiting his own daughter's body, nor walking the Nine Hells naked. I'll stop as to not provoke spoilers for those who haven't, but I do wonder, have you read the Elminster novels?
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A city to protect
innocents to save
"Why?" They ask "they hate you"
We're heroes it's what we do.
*patiently waiting on Paragon City*
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Yes and no. In terms of visual derivation there is obviously a clear link between both Gandlaf and Elminster and both do tend toward a more classic, Woden stylised, vision of a wizard. Merlin, being a much older figure, had gone through numerous stlyings over the centuries. Thus visually the more modern renderings of Merlin are likely influenced by as opposed to influencing the classic wizard look.
In terms of general background there is a significant difference between the 3. Merlin (primarily welsh/Gaelic in derivation) is a composite of three older figures, with the classic version of him being a 'cambion' and having an inherent shape hanging ability with the bulk of his abilities derived from his heritage. Gandalf (owing more toward Woden and thus Anglo-Saxon/Germanic/Nordic in derivation), is the mortal incarnation of Tolkein's version of an angel, and his abilities are entirely limited by those obtainable by mortal man, then there is Elminster who is a mortal spell caster being granted near immortality by the goddess of magic.
In terms of fantasy drawing inspiration from itself, I have absolutely no issue with. To a certain extent I would see it as very complimentary.
A city to protect
innocents to save
"Why?" They ask "they hate you"
We're heroes it's what we do.
*patiently waiting on Paragon City*
Doesn't really matter...
They are still the same Archetype. Even Galdalf's title The Grey Wanderer is actually a reference to Woden/Odin.
Every society going back has some sort of Magi meddling with the affairs of state providing wisdom and aid when needed. And if you didn't catch that the word magic itself is derived from this ancient archetype.
You can debate who was the original all day long. It's an effort in futility and pointlessness.
It's truly like me saying this text is pink and you responding no it's desert rose.