Tenacious Concealment and ITC are the source of the perma-rogue angst.
ITC is Unstoppable on an encounter, and Tenacious Concealment removes the only way to pop someone from stealth. From a design standpoint rogues should be very nimble glass cannons. If those things are nerfed they will need more dodge (like HR), and some of their encounters will need damage boosted to again be viable (looking at you Impact shot).
I'd love to play a high damage, but fragile class with a ton of dodges. Perma builds are boring, but people feel compelled to play them because a rotation from a geared out CW or GWF will end them. You get 2 whole dodges (even less than CW), so the only defense becomes stealth. Not everyone wants to play a perma-stealth rogue, but they don't want to be ground into the floor constantly either.
Nerfed encounter damage + lack of dodges makes perma the most viable build right now. It sucks, but until considerable adjustments are made to the class, it is what it is.
The problem is that if they nerf the duration or the encounters that refill stealth they will completely ruin the class. Not even 1 feat from the Sab Path will have a meaning and the WK Path will be destroyed .I Prefer being seen from a longer distance rather than this crime against our class.Our class is already crippled if you think that we got only 2 dodges and Itc (which is a power of only one of the 2 paths and which power depletes completely stealth to offer us this immunity)
ITC is Unstoppable on an encounter, and Tenacious Concealment removes the only way to pop someone from stealth.
GF shield, HR Forest Meditation, DC Exaltation, and I believe CW shield give CC resist too.
Reducing TC isn't a real solution as the primary problem people have with permas is hitting them to begin with. Even if you do knock a perma out of stealth they have plenty of ways to go right back in (Shadow Strike and dailies).
We need to stop looking at nerfs and more at reshaping of the class that prevents perma altogether. Asking for more DPS doesn't hurt though.
GF shield, HR Forest Meditation, DC Exaltation, and I believe CW shield give CC resist too.
Reducing TC isn't a real solution as the primary problem people have with permas is hitting them to begin with. Even if you do knock a perma out of stealth they have plenty of ways to go right back in (Shadow Strike and dailies).
We need to stop looking at nerfs and more at reshaping of the class that prevents perma altogether. Asking for more DPS doesn't hurt though.
Ok let's say i agree with you . Perma stealth feature removed and etc . etc . We get a nc boost on our dps and some dodge - cc break abilities as well as a handicap to the loss of stealth . Do you seriously think we are going to keep those Buffs we got in return for a long time with all those emos running in period in game and in Forums ? ?
Ι am one of the few WKs ingame . I ensure you that if you take the refill capabilities of trs WK Path will be weaker than pets .Especially since the last nerfs that took place since MOD 2 crippled both paths ..
Do you seriously think we are going to keep those Buffs we got in return for a long time with all those emos running in period in game and in Forums ? ?
I would take those buffs and defend them if they are fair. But I can't defend perma. It is just bad. Also, people always complain so nothing new there. The trick is diving out true issues from a sea of tears.
I didn't cover WK in my original post because, like you said, hardly anyone plays one. Why do you think WKs will be weak pets without the ability to instantly refill stealth meter? I normally play a MI but I see nothing in the few differences between the two that would make WK weaker with the change I suggested. In fact the suggestion to remove invulnerability from ITC, replacing with increased deflect, would not effect them as VP can remain as-is (which is debatable if VP is any good to being with).
can you make up your mind what you want.
how can tr have control in df when everyone would see him coming even from the first hit
what you are suggestion is compleate stealth nerf.15 feet visible tr-
how can i land df
how can i land lb
how can i land pob
how can i land dazing
lolololol
and then you come to troll me and you want even more nerf then me
detect only when it passes at the character obviously needs to be recalculated, because 95% of the time that he's on your side you ja ta taking the 3° hit of the duelist.
15 feet was an example could be recalculated by the developers in range distance.
I tested the feat of cw severe reaction he pushes 5 feet is virtually nothing 15 feet is still a modest number that's better shows in range distance since, can test easily in each encounter.
Shadow Strike = 40' range
Impact Shot = 40' range
POB = + or - 25-30' range tested
LS = You can go running and jumping before using you will rarely be interrupted
DF = This one could increase the speed of 2° hit
DS = This can degrade a bit. plus many trs dont use it.
Perm = BOS + ITC or POB + Shadow Strike
Combat = Shadow Strike + ITC + POB
Icewind = Shadow + Smoke or LB + ITC
gloaming cut has 20 range distance, duelist jump more or less this distance in 3° hit
in my opinion the tr should be detected from 15-25' range distance which would be the range distance of the duelist 3° jump or Gloaming Cut, giving a chance to react and avoid him.
if they remove stealth refilling abilities but make it so the stealth meter refills normally outside stealth, even when being hit, that would make TRs being able to enter stealth more often. If you add more damage/cc (they would need to add them in order to make up for the loss of perma) I think tr's could be doing much better, in PVE and PVP.
one of my 2 tr is a whisperknife, and I think that with better damage, and more cc, and a stealth meter that refills no matter if I'm being hit or not, I wouldn't have too much trouble either.
if they remove stealth refilling abilities but make it so the stealth meter refills normally outside stealth, even when being hit, that would make TRs being able to enter stealth more often. If you add more damage/cc (they would need to add them in order to make up for the loss of perma) I think tr's could be doing much better, in PVE and PVP.
one of my 2 tr is a whisperknife, and I think that with better damage, and more cc, and a stealth meter that refills no matter if I'm being hit or not, I wouldn't have too much trouble either.
This will need a huge rework from the devs side . I can't imagine them working that much just for rework . They will just nerf trs to the ground ...
I don't think it's a huge class rework, mainly this:
-bait and switch no longer refill stealth meter
-SS is no longer a stealth refilling attack, it's changed for a CC attack (stun or daze)
-stealth meter is always filling up outside of stealth even when being hit.
-general damage of some skills is raised.
I'm aware that there would need to be a rebalance in some feats that are based on stealth and stealth duration though.
I doubt it'll happen, but one can always dream. :rolleyes:
Perma/semi perma is still kind of cool in pve and shouldn't be completely removed IMO.
Simple fix that would be enough:
Remove the stealth duration bonus from PvP gear and/or Improved cunning sneak and give movement speed instead.
Reduce the range on shadow strike to be 30-50% of current range.
This would make managing stealth harder and riskier in pvp while not making much of a difference in PVE. It would also incentivize use of black ice gear.
Don't want, nor need damage. If anything, although a minority opinion, IMO TR damage in PvP is at adequate levels except for a few "mistaken nerfs" -- a case example being Shoxecution.
(Yes, Shox needed a nerf, but not in this manner. I specifically warned the forums that a straight-forward damage nerf will please neither the opponents nor the proponents, and things are now exactly as I've warned. Now, Shox hits much too weak in most cases and this has the proponents p*ssed, as well as it still deals a non-dodgeable death blow without giving any other options when your HP is relatively low, which has opponents like me p*ssed. They should have left the damage alone and made it dodgeable. Simple as that...)
What the TRs truly need is a different and viable combat style that relies less on stealth, and more on a variety of combat utilities, buffs/debuffs and CCs. Since TRs clearly aren't (what I personally categorize as) "heavy melees", our playing style should rely on technique, finesse, trickiness and speed.
Instead, us TRs are currently the slowest (in both movement and attack), devoid of viable CCs(less-than-1sec stuns, anyone?), and generally poorly equipped to fight anyone while visible. Even the mighty ITC is a joke when it is not combined with re-stealth. OK, I'm immune to CCs and deflect everything for 5 seconds.. then what? Like, there's that HR or a CW that CCs you from more than 60' away. So I break free from it ITC. What then? What happens to me while I walk the 60 feet distance towards my target?
We've got one gap-closer in MI and one in WK, and both of them are encounters with a default recharge longer than 10 seconds. With 3 encounter slots, if we invest 1 into Shadow Strike and one into ITC, then for MIs Deft Strike is the third. Yippee. No room for any real attack powers. For WKs, 1 into SS and one into VP or Deft Strike as gap-closer, then there's room for ONE attack power at the price of being totally vulnerable to any CCs.
Why do TRs give up on damage builds and real melee/damage powers, only to stick with stealth and throw puny knives from shadows, and then whine and moan about low damage? There's your answer. Melee at-wills and encounters -- melee tactics in general -- don't work for TRs because we have no tools to fight as a melee.
...
To add insult to injury, when us TRs are in this situation, the heavy-armor wearing, heavy-weapon wielding, slow and lumbering behemoths they are, the GWF/GFs are actually more nimble, agile, and well-equipped to fight as a melee class, particularly the GWF. I'm supposed to be the lightly armored, nimble, finesse, tricky, technical fighter type.. but both the "brute" type of fighters are faster than me, have better gap closers, have superior CCs, superior CC protection, and much more options in a melee fight.
Fix this problem for TRs, please, at the same time nerfing stealth.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
* Attacking from stealth takes you out of stealth entirely or drastically reduces your meter with each attack.
* Stealth duration is either permanent or absurdly long
Face it, you're not going to find a comfortable point to settle on when you allow TRs to attack continuously from stealth. You can't balance stealth defensively without inadvertently affecting their offensive capabilities. Nearly every other MMO Rogue/Thief/Assassin does it this way. With how slow the balance cycles are you're not going to settle on an agreeable balancing point this decade keeping basic stealth mechanics the way it is.
Make them competent:
Defensively while in stealth
Offensively while out of stealth
We should probably stop being creative. It prompts the devs to be lazy. Because, why spend 20 hours unnerfing the poor TR when we're OK finding off-builds from the rubbles our of class. Then actually make it WORK.
We should probably stop being creative. It prompts the devs to be lazy. Because, why spend 20 hours unnerfing the poor TR when we're OK finding off-builds from the rubbles our of class. Then actually make it WORK.
For a moment there, you sounded exactly like fpma.. *giggles*
That was cool.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Something keep attacking you and you can't do anything is unacceptable! No one should be allowed to do that. It keeps ruining PvP. Do something!
I will be polite my dear friend and try to get you some facts .
Most of our encounter skills are based on stealth and deplete it on use . Right now Tr can use only 2 encounters from his Skill variety that don't deplete completely his stealth. Τhose 2 skills are the one that refill our meter . The other fact i would love to add is that those skills got pretty much HIGH Cooldown even if you stack alot of recovery Int ( which i am not doing ).Now let's face other facts . If stealth ( duration or it's effect ) gets nerfed to the pulp trs won't be able to draw out even 20 % of their dps since most skills depend on stealth for being landed properly .Plus taking away refill encounters will cause us being meatsacks for every single class since we don't have but 2 dodges and ITC ( Which in order to give us the Dmg immunity buff must be casted from stealth and from what you proppose we won't be able to use ITC ) So if i add the minimal count of dodges (we got 2) you can realize that stealth is the only way for us to survive .Plus if stealth is nerfed we won't be able to stalk someone in order to use our at will skills since we won't be able to get close enough .You realize that Trs dmg immunity - Trs base dmg of at wills and the "ALREADY nerfed by 120 % dmg percent since MOD 2 of encounters "DEPEND" on our ability to maintain our stealth ? And this is what you are asking to get nerfed in a pulp .
Some players obviously don't evem know half of the above...
sigh, why there's no still a single words from devs, anything? a little "we are looking into it?" anything?
Because the devs have knowledge of what i typed in my post above since they made the class .And they will do wisely not to hear Forum Warriors that don't spend even 1 min to read a guide .
Comments
The problem is that if they nerf the duration or the encounters that refill stealth they will completely ruin the class. Not even 1 feat from the Sab Path will have a meaning and the WK Path will be destroyed .I Prefer being seen from a longer distance rather than this crime against our class.Our class is already crippled if you think that we got only 2 dodges and Itc (which is a power of only one of the 2 paths and which power depletes completely stealth to offer us this immunity)
GF shield, HR Forest Meditation, DC Exaltation, and I believe CW shield give CC resist too.
Reducing TC isn't a real solution as the primary problem people have with permas is hitting them to begin with. Even if you do knock a perma out of stealth they have plenty of ways to go right back in (Shadow Strike and dailies).
We need to stop looking at nerfs and more at reshaping of the class that prevents perma altogether. Asking for more DPS doesn't hurt though.
Ok let's say i agree with you . Perma stealth feature removed and etc . etc . We get a nc boost on our dps and some dodge - cc break abilities as well as a handicap to the loss of stealth . Do you seriously think we are going to keep those Buffs we got in return for a long time with all those emos running in period in game and in Forums ? ?
Ι am one of the few WKs ingame . I ensure you that if you take the refill capabilities of trs WK Path will be weaker than pets .Especially since the last nerfs that took place since MOD 2 crippled both paths ..
I would take those buffs and defend them if they are fair. But I can't defend perma. It is just bad. Also, people always complain so nothing new there. The trick is diving out true issues from a sea of tears.
I didn't cover WK in my original post because, like you said, hardly anyone plays one. Why do you think WKs will be weak pets without the ability to instantly refill stealth meter? I normally play a MI but I see nothing in the few differences between the two that would make WK weaker with the change I suggested. In fact the suggestion to remove invulnerability from ITC, replacing with increased deflect, would not effect them as VP can remain as-is (which is debatable if VP is any good to being with).
15 feet was an example could be recalculated by the developers in range distance.
I tested the feat of cw severe reaction he pushes 5 feet is virtually nothing 15 feet is still a modest number that's better shows in range distance since, can test easily in each encounter.
Shadow Strike = 40' range
Impact Shot = 40' range
POB = + or - 25-30' range tested
LS = You can go running and jumping before using you will rarely be interrupted
DF = This one could increase the speed of 2° hit
DS = This can degrade a bit. plus many trs dont use it.
Perm = BOS + ITC or POB + Shadow Strike
Combat = Shadow Strike + ITC + POB
Icewind = Shadow + Smoke or LB + ITC
gloaming cut has 20 range distance, duelist jump more or less this distance in 3° hit
in my opinion the tr should be detected from 15-25' range distance which would be the range distance of the duelist 3° jump or Gloaming Cut, giving a chance to react and avoid him.
one of my 2 tr is a whisperknife, and I think that with better damage, and more cc, and a stealth meter that refills no matter if I'm being hit or not, I wouldn't have too much trouble either.
This will need a huge rework from the devs side . I can't imagine them working that much just for rework . They will just nerf trs to the ground ...
-bait and switch no longer refill stealth meter
-SS is no longer a stealth refilling attack, it's changed for a CC attack (stun or daze)
-stealth meter is always filling up outside of stealth even when being hit.
-general damage of some skills is raised.
I'm aware that there would need to be a rebalance in some feats that are based on stealth and stealth duration though.
I doubt it'll happen, but one can always dream. :rolleyes:
If I had a wish list it would be for it to be a prone with a small knock back. Rename it to "Sucker Punch".
There are just so many ways this class could be made fun and competitive again.
Tr does have a prone, and has for a long time
It is quite fun to get a fighter low then prone them, then dead
It's like people want rogues to have no damage AND stealth.
Simple fix that would be enough:
Remove the stealth duration bonus from PvP gear and/or Improved cunning sneak and give movement speed instead.
Reduce the range on shadow strike to be 30-50% of current range.
This would make managing stealth harder and riskier in pvp while not making much of a difference in PVE. It would also incentivize use of black ice gear.
(Yes, Shox needed a nerf, but not in this manner. I specifically warned the forums that a straight-forward damage nerf will please neither the opponents nor the proponents, and things are now exactly as I've warned. Now, Shox hits much too weak in most cases and this has the proponents p*ssed, as well as it still deals a non-dodgeable death blow without giving any other options when your HP is relatively low, which has opponents like me p*ssed. They should have left the damage alone and made it dodgeable. Simple as that...)
What the TRs truly need is a different and viable combat style that relies less on stealth, and more on a variety of combat utilities, buffs/debuffs and CCs. Since TRs clearly aren't (what I personally categorize as) "heavy melees", our playing style should rely on technique, finesse, trickiness and speed.
Instead, us TRs are currently the slowest (in both movement and attack), devoid of viable CCs(less-than-1sec stuns, anyone?), and generally poorly equipped to fight anyone while visible. Even the mighty ITC is a joke when it is not combined with re-stealth. OK, I'm immune to CCs and deflect everything for 5 seconds.. then what? Like, there's that HR or a CW that CCs you from more than 60' away. So I break free from it ITC. What then? What happens to me while I walk the 60 feet distance towards my target?
We've got one gap-closer in MI and one in WK, and both of them are encounters with a default recharge longer than 10 seconds. With 3 encounter slots, if we invest 1 into Shadow Strike and one into ITC, then for MIs Deft Strike is the third. Yippee. No room for any real attack powers. For WKs, 1 into SS and one into VP or Deft Strike as gap-closer, then there's room for ONE attack power at the price of being totally vulnerable to any CCs.
Why do TRs give up on damage builds and real melee/damage powers, only to stick with stealth and throw puny knives from shadows, and then whine and moan about low damage? There's your answer. Melee at-wills and encounters -- melee tactics in general -- don't work for TRs because we have no tools to fight as a melee.
...
To add insult to injury, when us TRs are in this situation, the heavy-armor wearing, heavy-weapon wielding, slow and lumbering behemoths they are, the GWF/GFs are actually more nimble, agile, and well-equipped to fight as a melee class, particularly the GWF. I'm supposed to be the lightly armored, nimble, finesse, tricky, technical fighter type.. but both the "brute" type of fighters are faster than me, have better gap closers, have superior CCs, superior CC protection, and much more options in a melee fight.
Fix this problem for TRs, please, at the same time nerfing stealth.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
* Stealth duration is either permanent or absurdly long
Face it, you're not going to find a comfortable point to settle on when you allow TRs to attack continuously from stealth. You can't balance stealth defensively without inadvertently affecting their offensive capabilities. Nearly every other MMO Rogue/Thief/Assassin does it this way. With how slow the balance cycles are you're not going to settle on an agreeable balancing point this decade keeping basic stealth mechanics the way it is.
Make them competent:
Defensively while in stealth
Offensively while out of stealth
For a moment there, you sounded exactly like fpma.. *giggles*
That was cool.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I will be polite my dear friend and try to get you some facts .
Most of our encounter skills are based on stealth and deplete it on use . Right now Tr can use only 2 encounters from his Skill variety that don't deplete completely his stealth. Τhose 2 skills are the one that refill our meter . The other fact i would love to add is that those skills got pretty much HIGH Cooldown even if you stack alot of recovery Int ( which i am not doing ).Now let's face other facts . If stealth ( duration or it's effect ) gets nerfed to the pulp trs won't be able to draw out even 20 % of their dps since most skills depend on stealth for being landed properly .Plus taking away refill encounters will cause us being meatsacks for every single class since we don't have but 2 dodges and ITC ( Which in order to give us the Dmg immunity buff must be casted from stealth and from what you proppose we won't be able to use ITC ) So if i add the minimal count of dodges (we got 2) you can realize that stealth is the only way for us to survive .Plus if stealth is nerfed we won't be able to stalk someone in order to use our at will skills since we won't be able to get close enough .You realize that Trs dmg immunity - Trs base dmg of at wills and the "ALREADY nerfed by 120 % dmg percent since MOD 2 of encounters "DEPEND" on our ability to maintain our stealth ? And this is what you are asking to get nerfed in a pulp .
Some players obviously don't evem know half of the above...
Because the devs have knowledge of what i typed in my post above since they made the class .And they will do wisely not to hear Forum Warriors that don't spend even 1 min to read a guide .