The entire mechanic as to where taking damage depletes stealth needs the rework--and that puts TC on the line as well. Potential ideas that have been thrown out there include;
Depleting stealth when in range of an enemy, hence when we should be easily more detectable, and not by taking damage. PRO: Can still permastealth. CON: Can't perma troll four people on a node.
Depleting stealth meter when using at wills. PRO: well..idk CON: it was done before and it blew up in the devs' faces.
Revealing the location for a small window when attacking an enemy from stealth. PRO: gives them a fighting chance. CON: counter-intuitive...defeats the purpose of being "unseen"
What about to remove stealth regen from encounters (Shadow Strike and Bait and Switch) while removing stealth loss from taking damage? Tenacious Concealment could be reworked to regenerate stealth 10/20/30% quicker.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
The entire mechanic as to where taking damage depletes stealth needs the rework--and that puts TC on the line as well. Potential ideas that have been thrown out there include;
Depleting stealth when in range of an enemy, hence when we should be easily more detectable, and not by taking damage. PRO: Can still permastealth. CON: Can't perma troll four people on a node.
Depleting stealth meter when using at wills. PRO: well..idk CON: it was done before and it blew up in the devs' faces.
Revealing the location for a small window when attacking an enemy from stealth. PRO: gives them a fighting chance. CON: counter-intuitive...defeats the purpose of being "unseen"
I like the first one a lot, as long as stealth doesn't deplete at all if there is nobody within a certain range.
I got maybe a good idea for the perma stealther problem.
An idea that can keep them in stealth if they are skilled enough.
I would suggest that if a TR hits you in front of you they would semi appear for a few seconds and will be targetable till they disappear and when they hit you in the back they just keep stealthed.
This will make it harder for all TR's and only the best ones will stay perma stealth build.
(maybe is it already suggested, I never read the whole thread and I'm new to the forums)
Let me guess . You are a CW .Let me guess once again . You are a handles one that can't realize that his class was made to be a Support - Disable class and not for killing everything in sight .
Just because i wrote a guide doesnt mean I main a CW. If I wrote a GWF guide you would no doubt say something about me being a gwf, which i am not maining either.
being able to attack and stay invisible, stay hidden whilst stunned/proned is just a bad pvp mechanic.
Another alternative is to keep everything as it is, but if you dodge whilst in stealth it brings you out of it.
Just because i wrote a guide doesnt mean I main a CW. If I wrote a GWF guide you would no doubt say something about me being a gwf, which i am not maining either.
being able to attack and stay invisible, stay hidden whilst stunned/proned is just a bad pvp mechanic.
Another alternative is to keep everything as it is, but if you dodge whilst in stealth it brings you out of it.
By spamming the same illogical claims over and over again, you just underline that there is someting wrong and also that you are trying to convince other people to believe that this is NOT the case, which in fact it is. What you are trying to accomplish is considered herd-behaviour, in which where one let's call them "sheep" for now, repeats something over and over again in order to get more other "sheeps" into believeing what is actually made up nonesense.
However, there are well edcuated people around this forum aswell, they are not a part of said herd behaviour and eventually studied psychology. These are the people who are telling the truth BUT, if a lie is being repeated over and over again, then for the majority of the "herd" it becomes the truth, because if every other sheep has the same opinion, it just has to be the reality. We call this type of cognitive manipulation, delusion.
Not trying to bash you by any means, but your goals are more than clear to quite a few people. Even if you try/tried hard to hide it.
I am a whisper Knife right now ( respecced) . I have no ITC and by other means stealth is the only way for me to survive . I myself declare that TC is way too OP . Have no clue about what you are speaking about and i have no means of making the community Herds . Accept my apology if i made you think so . It wasn't my intention of doing so . If i was trying to actually lie to the community i would just say that trs are fine , not that 1 skill is way to op as it is . I am even propposing 35 % nerf on this skill which will reduce the stealth time ALOT .
In light of that, it seems like two different discussions are going on here. We should try and bring that back to 1 focus:
So overall what is the problem with stealth in pvp: For domination, its that TRs can troll numerous people or even just decide to not fight and contest the node. IF you purely nerf a TRs ability to stay in stealth, classes like HR/CW/GWF will blow the TR up from lack of defense.
I think what COULD be done, like mentioned above, is change/reduce/remove tenacious concealment. The problem here is that doesnt remove TRs just trolling on nodes and not fighting. So to address THAT issue maybe the TR visibility range (the range at which classes can see a TR in stealth) needs to be increased to slightly less than HALF a node size. This makes it almost impossible for a TR to just troll someone who was standing on a node to find the TR and even worse with two people on the node combined with tenacious concealment - basically removes the issue.
What I think THEN is the issue is TR lacks in burst damage and also lacks in survivability. So what I think COULD be done to HELP combat this is: when a TR comes OUT of combat - instead of the stealth meter refilling it completely refills all at once - no more recharge. When Combat timer got pushed to 8 seconds it made it really hard for a TR to regain stealth without encounters like Shadow Strike - With THESE changes I am fine leaving shadow strike how it is then - refills stealth since it will be much easiler to find a TR and pull them out of stealth.
What I would STILL like to see changed ONTOP of this are:
1) Lashing Blade - in stealth bonus = reduced CD INSTEAD of 100% crit. ALSO - It should work LIKE "GF Bull Rush" in that you have to have a target to activate it.
2) TRs should have a class feature that boosts deflect - I think as a function either "outside stealth" OR "as stealth diminishes TR gains deflect up to about 15%. This would make it possible to run high deflect builds and thus turn into a more "combat" TR if one chose.
3) Increase the number of dodges but decrease the range of each - more like HR or maybe somewhere in between.
4) Smoke Bomb should get a DOT added to the effect - this makes it very useful in PVE AND PVP.
5) Impact Shot - Reduce the # to 2 shots outside stealth and the instealth bonus DOESNT stun but just consumes ZERO charges. Damage should NOT be hindered by the NUMBER of impact shots.
I think these options could make the TR class much more viable as a damager rather than just a troll class in PVP. The TR would have good stealth encounter options again - like Lashing/Impact/Smokebomb, They can STILL "perma" but less effective at "Troll Holding" as I will call it. They have increased outside stealth survivability from increase deflect and increased number of dodges.
I think this would bring the TR ROUGHLY back to the desired play style in that now you have multiple options. I dont think you need to "nerf stealth" except in the aspect of being able to FIND a TR on a node. The only other way to do this that I dont like would be that a TR in stealth doesnt count as being "on the node" so thus a perma wouldnt be good at contesting but I think thats not fair since all other mechanics (like unstoppable) count when your on the node.
Id like to see a TR be brought back into a "damage dealer" perspective and I think the added deflect/dodges would aid in the TR versus HR and GWF as well....
In light of that, it seems like two different discussions are going on here. We should try and bring that back to 1 focus:
So overall what is the problem with stealth in pvp: For domination, its that TRs can troll numerous people or even just decide to not fight and contest the node. IF you purely nerf a TRs ability to stay in stealth, classes like HR/CW/GWF will blow the TR up from lack of defense.
I think what COULD be done, like mentioned above, is change/reduce/remove tenacious concealment. The problem here is that doesnt remove TRs just trolling on nodes and not fighting. So to address THAT issue maybe the TR visibility range (the range at which classes can see a TR in stealth) needs to be increased to slightly less than HALF a node size. This makes it almost impossible for a TR to just troll someone who was standing on a node to find the TR and even worse with two people on the node combined with tenacious concealment - basically removes the issue.
What I think THEN is the issue is TR lacks in burst damage and also lacks in survivability. So what I think COULD be done to HELP combat this is: when a TR comes OUT of combat - instead of the stealth meter refilling it completely refills all at once - no more recharge. When Combat timer got pushed to 8 seconds it made it really hard for a TR to regain stealth without encounters like Shadow Strike - With THESE changes I am fine leaving shadow strike how it is then - refills stealth since it will be much easiler to find a TR and pull them out of stealth.
What I would STILL like to see changed ONTOP of this are:
1) Lashing Blade - in stealth bonus = reduced CD INSTEAD of 100% crit. ALSO - It should work LIKE "GF Bull Rush" in that you have to have a target to activate it.
2) TRs should have a class feature that boosts deflect - I think as a function either "outside stealth" OR "as stealth diminishes TR gains deflect up to about 15%. This would make it possible to run high deflect builds and thus turn into a more "combat" TR if one chose.
3) Increase the number of dodges but decrease the range of each - more like HR or maybe somewhere in between.
4) Smoke Bomb should get a DOT added to the effect - this makes it very useful in PVE AND PVP.
5) Impact Shot - Reduce the # to 2 shots outside stealth and the instealth bonus DOESNT stun but just consumes ZERO charges. Damage should NOT be hindered by the NUMBER of impact shots.
I think these options could make the TR class much more viable as a damager rather than just a troll class in PVP. The TR would have good stealth encounter options again - like Lashing/Impact/Smokebomb, They can STILL "perma" but less effective at "Troll Holding" as I will call it. They have increased outside stealth survivability from increase deflect and increased number of dodges.
I think this would bring the TR ROUGHLY back to the desired play style in that now you have multiple options. I dont think you need to "nerf stealth" except in the aspect of being able to FIND a TR on a node. The only other way to do this that I dont like would be that a TR in stealth doesnt count as being "on the node" so thus a perma wouldnt be good at contesting but I think thats not fair since all other mechanics (like unstoppable) count when your on the node.
Id like to see a TR be brought back into a "damage dealer" perspective and I think the added deflect/dodges would aid in the TR versus HR and GWF as well....
TC nerf and boost of the range that gives someone the ability to track a tr should totally solve the problem . If SS or B&S refill effect is nerfed or removed WKs path will die along with them and Infiltrator path will be utterly useless . So Let Devs nerf concealment and boost this actual range .Though we should be given a slight boost on our dps as a result of this.They should give us Impact shot back (w/o the stun effect ofc since emo will still qq ) and 1-2 more dodges..
1) Lashing Blade - in stealth bonus = reduced CD INSTEAD of 100% crit. ALSO - It should work LIKE "GF Bull Rush" in that you have to have a target to activate it.
noooope... as I said before LB from stealth is main PvP damage dealing skill and using it without 100% crit on stealth even with that 50% reduction would be meaningles as Dazing Strike would do similar damage and on top of that would stun (GWFs takedown gets almost 60% CD reduction just for missing) and have same CD as 50% reduced LB (+/- 1 sec).
As for the rest I agree.
BTW TR should have high deflect chances on one of his feat path like HR has on combat path instead TR has 3 pathes in which one supports critical damage, one that improves damage in overall and one that supports stealth... 3 pathes that improve damage in diffrent ways instead of 1 damage based path, 1 defense based path and 1 support based path like most classes have so question here is:
Is TR damage dealer or not? If not then what's his role? Because if GWF is better damage dealer on his defense path (sent or IV sent) then something is off here.
This thread has lots of different people posting suggestions on what to change. Some are well thought out but many are being advocated by people who have never played a TR. So, as someone who has a TR I decided to put in my suggestion that will (1) remove permas and (2) keep TRs viable:
1. Remove all encounters and feats that replenish the stealth meter. Replace Shadow Strike with a new CC ability (not another stun though) or a DoT.
2. Any TR encounter power that hits another player/mob removes the TR from stealth.
3. ITC no longer gives damage immunity. Instead have it give increased deflect. CC immunity remains the same. This is regardless if fired from stealth or not. If a CC is used on a TR in or entering ITC it reduces the length of ITC duration.
4. Damage no longer reduces the stealth meter when a TR is not in stealth. When in stealth damage will still reduce the stealth meter. Tenacious Concealment can remain as-is as it will only apply if the TR is in stealth and takes damage.
The end result is you will have TRs popping in and out of stealth constantly, but no more permas. Outside stealth they will likely fire off ITC but you can still damage them. There is also still a window to use CC on them.
noooope... as I said before LB from stealth is main PvP damage dealing skill and using it without 100% crit on stealth even with that 50% reduction would be meaningles as Dazing Strike would do similar damage and on top of that would stun (GWFs takedown gets almost 60% CD reduction just for missing) and have same CD as 50% reduced LB (+/- 1 sec).
As for the rest I agree.
BTW TR should have high deflect chances on one of his feat path like HR has on combat path instead TR has 3 pathes in which one supports critical damage, one that improves damage in overall and one that supports stealth... 3 pathes that improve damage in diffrent ways instead of 1 damage based path, 1 defense based path and 1 support based path like most classes have so question here is:
Is TR damage dealer or not? If not then what's his role? Because if GWF is better damage dealer on his defense path (sent or IV sent) then something is off here.
This thread has lots of different people posting suggestions on what to change. Some are well thought out but many are being advocated by people who have never played a TR. So, as someone who has a TR I decided to put in my suggestion that will (1) remove permas and (2) keep TRs viable:
1. Remove all encounters and feats that replenish the stealth meter. Replace Shadow Strike with a new CC ability (not another stun though) or a DoT.
2. Any TR encounter power that hits another player/mob removes the TR from stealth.
3. ITC no longer gives damage immunity. Instead have it give increased deflect. CC immunity remains the same. This is regardless if fired from stealth or not. If a CC is used on a TR in or entering ITC it reduces the length of ITC duration.
4. Damage no longer reduces the stealth meter when a TR is not in stealth. When in stealth damage will still reduce the stealth meter. Tenacious Concealment can remain as-is as it will only apply if the TR is in stealth and takes damage.
The end result is you will have TRs popping in and out of stealth constantly, but no more permas. Outside stealth they will likely fire off ITC but you can still damage them. There is also still a window to use CC on them.
Very good suggestions. But I would still rework Tenacious Concealment into something more useful.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
yeah no more tenacious concealment, i would like a skill that throws water ballons. it would be funny and usefull.
oh you find perma semi/perma easy? go try go try.
im playing tr, gwf, hr and they are all in the first 7 pages. well you know what? tr is not that easy as you may think
TRs will be too broken if this happened, other changes would have to be made (and i really hate perma stealth)
Instead i would suggest two things:
1. If caught in CC, they de-stealth. only daze does this currently, but stuns/knockback/down should also pull them out of stealth.
2. reduced movement speed by 40% ish
I had no idea daze knocks a TR out of stealth. Muahahaha.
Honestly at this point I don't think perma is that big of a deal. Maybe it's because Pathfinder is so **** good at fighting them, but really I think they're OK.
1.u show up 6 elixirs-me 0 elixir
2.full daily ap-me 0 daily ap
3.stone- me no stone
4.pets-no pets
but main reason i cant play open world is lag so i never even been there or fought ever before
in weekends i barely play pvp coz of that.im stuck in one spot every few sec
i cant hit df and i didnt want to run around thats why i lost. but u just want to talk no fight .coz even so i can beat u but need to adjust a bit and make daily before
go play your combat tr i dont care still in normal pvp no chance
make a full party 5 and we do 1v1 in real pvp i challenge u .
if i lose i give u 1mill ad if i win nothing.
but no pots
This statement implies, that you have no lag, at all. Otherwise you would not have said it.
I suggest that this issue be solved asap. No one should be able to attack invisibly. Something keep attacking you and you can't do anything is just ridiculous. I don't understand the purpose behind introducing this thing.
mixed feelings to be honest: it would actually increase chances to defeat permas (they would not be able to stall anyone for long on caps) but people like me who go into stealth and use it to punch someone in the face, with LB, so hard they would run away from combat like a chicken with its head chopped off may be a little frustrating (dunno about other EU players but quite often I encounter situation where enemy players are using dodge after being hit)
as for TC: I did not find use for it in my TR build, as combat TR I'm not depending on self replenishing stealth too much. Also I would have to resign from either skillful infiltrator (gives +3% to deflect and crit chance and +15% speed movement) or invisible infiltrator (refills stealth and gives +15% damage which procs bloodbath that can hit even with +70% damage +combat advantage + vorpal crit sev % and I might have some stealth left to fire my stun+LB rotation). TL&DR I can't really speak about TC since I did not use it that much
Well, before suggesting any nerfs to stealth in overall we should discuss that damage buff and restore TRs place as main damage dealer
I suggest that this issue be solved asap. No one should be able to attack invisibly. Something keep attacking you and you can't doing anything is just ridiculous. I don't understand the purpose behind introducing such a thing.
There are more than 10-15 ways to counter a perma . As a cw you got 4-5 of them w/o counting lantern in them. Shut up and read a guide .I bet my butt that even with stealth being removed you will find a way into emo threads about further nerfs.
All near perfect immunity powers ruin sense of fairness and fun. Old soul forge had similar issue. If it procced everyone on opposing team could waste all their encounters on you to no avail. ITC and duelist are like this as well. Stealth is nearly as bad because being untargetable is effectively immunity. One good TR can occupy the entire other team nearly indefinitely.
The only somewhat reasonable way to deal with a perma on your point is a good HR. A gwf dc can sort of stalemate. Most cases the gwf eventually goes down to shocking/whirlwind after being whittle with daggers and PoB. A lucky blind prone may turn the tides but usually tr runs till mostly healed before returning. I have 2500 regen on my I know others have similar builds.
TRs have been dominating domination since release. Their play style has always been both the most successful and least fun to oppose. First we had our one hit wonder builds where many of us would get 30+ kills a match while enemy had zero window to respond. Now we have this slower whittle down daily build where once again the average enemy has practically no window to respond.
Stealth with no active counter mechanic in game have messed up mmo pvp since as far back as I can remember.
Btw, not that I'm complaining, but why are we faster when stealthed? Cutting movement in half would actually help balance fighting stealthed toons.
Anyhow it should get adjusted. I already have a pretty solid dps/tank build to replace perma when it does.
All near perfect immunity powers ruin sense of fairness and fun. Old soul forge had similar issue. If it procced everyone on opposing team could waste all their encounters on you to no avail. ITC and duelist are like this as well. Stealth is nearly as bad because being untargetable is effectively immunity. One good TR can occupy the entire other team nearly indefinitely.
The only somewhat reasonable way to deal with a perma on your point is a good HR. A gwf dc can sort of stalemate. Most cases the gwf eventually goes down to shocking/whirlwind after being whittle with daggers and PoB. A lucky blind prone may turn the tides but usually tr runs till mostly healed before returning. I have 2500 regen on my I know others have similar builds.
TRs have been dominating domination since release. Their play style has always been both the most successful and least fun to oppose. First we had our one hit wonder builds where many of us would get 30+ kills a match while enemy had zero window to respond. Now we have this slower whittle down daily build where once again the average enemy has practically no window to respond.
Stealth with no active counter mechanic in game have messed up mmo pvp since as far back as I can remember.
Btw, not that I'm complaining, but why are we faster when stealthed? Cutting movement in half would actually help balance fighting stealthed toons.
Anyhow it should get adjusted. I already have a pretty solid dps/tank build to replace perma when it does.
Tc Nerf and boost on ways of tracking trs in stealth would be the ideal solution, Further Nerf on the stealth duration as i mentioned before will totally destroy WK build and make Infiltrator useless both on pve - pvp . We already have 125 % dps nerf on our classes .I have seen some idiots in this thread just trolling by saying to remove ITC dmg immunity which is the only evading skill we got and it depletes our stealth meter to do so .Most of you that cry about trs have never read any of the existing guides and have no clue at all how our class works . If you think that Trs are easy then try it . I dare ya .
so how did you win the one if you lost for all the same reasons? like i told you we will cross paths in domination at some point, but you wont pay up lol you will come up with million more reasons why you cant.
as for the upcoming nerf on perma's, its gonna happen, it needs to happen, whether its taking the replenishing of stealth away from the encounters, or TC. but something needs to be done.
The TR community would prefer TC nerf and slight dps boost / 2 more dodges .I think i am not asking much right ?
i wish they would put our damage back to where it was about a year ago, when we could compete for top dps in a pve dungeon, now its just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>,, and SE doesnt do much damage in pve anymore...
as for pvp, im not sure what they plan to do, though it scares me because they always overnerf Tr's. which means the combat tr's will get hit hard again
This thread has lots of different people posting suggestions on what to change. Some are well thought out but many are being advocated by people who have never played a TR. So, as someone who has a TR I decided to put in my suggestion that will (1) remove permas and (2) keep TRs viable:
1. Remove all encounters and feats that replenish the stealth meter. Replace Shadow Strike with a new CC ability (not another stun though) or a DoT.
2. Any TR encounter power that hits another player/mob removes the TR from stealth. This does not apply for at-wills though.
3. ITC no longer gives damage immunity. Instead have it give increased deflect. CC immunity remains the same. This is regardless if activated from stealth or not. If a CC is used on a TR in or entering ITC it reduces the length of ITC duration.
4. Damage no longer reduces the stealth meter when a TR is outside stealth, only when in stealth.
The end result is you will have TRs popping in and out of stealth constantly, but no more permas. Outside stealth they will likely fire off ITC but you can still damage them. There is also still a window to use CC on them. Players will have to learn to recognize when a TR is in ITC to know to not fire a CC. For some that may be too much but you can't solve people being too lazy to learn things.
i wish they would put our damage back to where it was about a year ago, when we could compete for top dps in a pve dungeon, now its just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>,, and SE doesnt do much damage in pve anymore...
I didn't cover this but the DPS of a TR would have to be increased too. That is another subject since the discussion is on fixing the "perma problem". Permas are actually a result of too much dps nerfing to the class so this still needs addressed.
This thread has lots of different people posting suggestions on what to change. Some are well thought out but many are being advocated by people who have never played a TR. So, as someone who has a TR I decided to put in my suggestion that will (1) remove permas and (2) keep TRs viable:
1. Remove all encounters and feats that replenish the stealth meter. Replace Shadow Strike with a new CC ability (not another stun though) or a DoT.
2. Any TR encounter power that hits another player/mob removes the TR from stealth. This does not apply for at-wills though.
3. ITC no longer gives damage immunity. Instead have it give increased deflect. CC immunity remains the same. This is regardless if activated from stealth or not. If a CC is used on a TR in or entering ITC it reduces the length of ITC duration.
4. Damage no longer reduces the stealth meter when a TR is outside stealth, only when in stealth.
The end result is you will have TRs popping in and out of stealth constantly, but no more permas. Outside stealth they will likely fire off ITC but you can still damage them. There is also still a window to use CC on them. Players will have to learn to recognize when a TR is in ITC to know to not fire a CC. For some that may be too much but you can't solve people being too lazy to learn things.
I didn't cover this but the DPS of a TR would have to be increased too. That is another subject since the discussion is on fixing the "perma problem". Permas are actually a result of too much dps nerfing to the class so this still needs addressed.
1 : No
2 : No
3 : No
In conclusion any of those changes will kill the Infiltrator path and will deplete the WK build completely . Learn tr mechanics and make those posts after that .
Comments
Depleting stealth when in range of an enemy, hence when we should be easily more detectable, and not by taking damage. PRO: Can still permastealth. CON: Can't perma troll four people on a node.
Depleting stealth meter when using at wills. PRO: well..idk CON: it was done before and it blew up in the devs' faces.
Revealing the location for a small window when attacking an enemy from stealth. PRO: gives them a fighting chance. CON: counter-intuitive...defeats the purpose of being "unseen"
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
An idea that can keep them in stealth if they are skilled enough.
I would suggest that if a TR hits you in front of you they would semi appear for a few seconds and will be targetable till they disappear and when they hit you in the back they just keep stealthed.
This will make it harder for all TR's and only the best ones will stay perma stealth build.
(maybe is it already suggested, I never read the whole thread and I'm new to the forums)
Just because i wrote a guide doesnt mean I main a CW. If I wrote a GWF guide you would no doubt say something about me being a gwf, which i am not maining either.
being able to attack and stay invisible, stay hidden whilst stunned/proned is just a bad pvp mechanic.
Another alternative is to keep everything as it is, but if you dodge whilst in stealth it brings you out of it.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
But Prones make you visible . lol ..
I am a whisper Knife right now ( respecced) . I have no ITC and by other means stealth is the only way for me to survive . I myself declare that TC is way too OP . Have no clue about what you are speaking about and i have no means of making the community Herds . Accept my apology if i made you think so . It wasn't my intention of doing so . If i was trying to actually lie to the community i would just say that trs are fine , not that 1 skill is way to op as it is . I am even propposing 35 % nerf on this skill which will reduce the stealth time ALOT .
In light of that, it seems like two different discussions are going on here. We should try and bring that back to 1 focus:
So overall what is the problem with stealth in pvp: For domination, its that TRs can troll numerous people or even just decide to not fight and contest the node. IF you purely nerf a TRs ability to stay in stealth, classes like HR/CW/GWF will blow the TR up from lack of defense.
I think what COULD be done, like mentioned above, is change/reduce/remove tenacious concealment. The problem here is that doesnt remove TRs just trolling on nodes and not fighting. So to address THAT issue maybe the TR visibility range (the range at which classes can see a TR in stealth) needs to be increased to slightly less than HALF a node size. This makes it almost impossible for a TR to just troll someone who was standing on a node to find the TR and even worse with two people on the node combined with tenacious concealment - basically removes the issue.
What I think THEN is the issue is TR lacks in burst damage and also lacks in survivability. So what I think COULD be done to HELP combat this is: when a TR comes OUT of combat - instead of the stealth meter refilling it completely refills all at once - no more recharge. When Combat timer got pushed to 8 seconds it made it really hard for a TR to regain stealth without encounters like Shadow Strike - With THESE changes I am fine leaving shadow strike how it is then - refills stealth since it will be much easiler to find a TR and pull them out of stealth.
What I would STILL like to see changed ONTOP of this are:
1) Lashing Blade - in stealth bonus = reduced CD INSTEAD of 100% crit. ALSO - It should work LIKE "GF Bull Rush" in that you have to have a target to activate it.
2) TRs should have a class feature that boosts deflect - I think as a function either "outside stealth" OR "as stealth diminishes TR gains deflect up to about 15%. This would make it possible to run high deflect builds and thus turn into a more "combat" TR if one chose.
3) Increase the number of dodges but decrease the range of each - more like HR or maybe somewhere in between.
4) Smoke Bomb should get a DOT added to the effect - this makes it very useful in PVE AND PVP.
5) Impact Shot - Reduce the # to 2 shots outside stealth and the instealth bonus DOESNT stun but just consumes ZERO charges. Damage should NOT be hindered by the NUMBER of impact shots.
I think these options could make the TR class much more viable as a damager rather than just a troll class in PVP. The TR would have good stealth encounter options again - like Lashing/Impact/Smokebomb, They can STILL "perma" but less effective at "Troll Holding" as I will call it. They have increased outside stealth survivability from increase deflect and increased number of dodges.
I think this would bring the TR ROUGHLY back to the desired play style in that now you have multiple options. I dont think you need to "nerf stealth" except in the aspect of being able to FIND a TR on a node. The only other way to do this that I dont like would be that a TR in stealth doesnt count as being "on the node" so thus a perma wouldnt be good at contesting but I think thats not fair since all other mechanics (like unstoppable) count when your on the node.
Id like to see a TR be brought back into a "damage dealer" perspective and I think the added deflect/dodges would aid in the TR versus HR and GWF as well....
They don't.
TC nerf and boost of the range that gives someone the ability to track a tr should totally solve the problem . If SS or B&S refill effect is nerfed or removed WKs path will die along with them and Infiltrator path will be utterly useless . So Let Devs nerf concealment and boost this actual range .Though we should be given a slight boost on our dps as a result of this.They should give us Impact shot back (w/o the stun effect ofc since emo will still qq ) and 1-2 more dodges..
noooope... as I said before LB from stealth is main PvP damage dealing skill and using it without 100% crit on stealth even with that 50% reduction would be meaningles as Dazing Strike would do similar damage and on top of that would stun (GWFs takedown gets almost 60% CD reduction just for missing) and have same CD as 50% reduced LB (+/- 1 sec).
As for the rest I agree.
BTW TR should have high deflect chances on one of his feat path like HR has on combat path instead TR has 3 pathes in which one supports critical damage, one that improves damage in overall and one that supports stealth... 3 pathes that improve damage in diffrent ways instead of 1 damage based path, 1 defense based path and 1 support based path like most classes have so question here is:
Is TR damage dealer or not? If not then what's his role? Because if GWF is better damage dealer on his defense path (sent or IV sent) then something is off here.
1. Remove all encounters and feats that replenish the stealth meter. Replace Shadow Strike with a new CC ability (not another stun though) or a DoT.
2. Any TR encounter power that hits another player/mob removes the TR from stealth.
3. ITC no longer gives damage immunity. Instead have it give increased deflect. CC immunity remains the same. This is regardless if fired from stealth or not. If a CC is used on a TR in or entering ITC it reduces the length of ITC duration.
4. Damage no longer reduces the stealth meter when a TR is not in stealth. When in stealth damage will still reduce the stealth meter. Tenacious Concealment can remain as-is as it will only apply if the TR is in stealth and takes damage.
The end result is you will have TRs popping in and out of stealth constantly, but no more permas. Outside stealth they will likely fire off ITC but you can still damage them. There is also still a window to use CC on them.
What do you think about my suggestion ?
Very good suggestions. But I would still rework Tenacious Concealment into something more useful.
Are you serious or blind ? Those are not suggestions . This is the guide of how to kill TR class ...
oh you find perma semi/perma easy? go try go try.
im playing tr, gwf, hr and they are all in the first 7 pages. well you know what? tr is not that easy as you may think
Water balloons that cause DAZE since they are watering an enemy's eyes ?
I had no idea daze knocks a TR out of stealth. Muahahaha.
Honestly at this point I don't think perma is that big of a deal. Maybe it's because Pathfinder is so **** good at fighting them, but really I think they're OK.
This statement implies, that you have no lag, at all. Otherwise you would not have said it.
mixed feelings to be honest: it would actually increase chances to defeat permas (they would not be able to stall anyone for long on caps) but people like me who go into stealth and use it to punch someone in the face, with LB, so hard they would run away from combat like a chicken with its head chopped off may be a little frustrating (dunno about other EU players but quite often I encounter situation where enemy players are using dodge after being hit)
as for TC: I did not find use for it in my TR build, as combat TR I'm not depending on self replenishing stealth too much. Also I would have to resign from either skillful infiltrator (gives +3% to deflect and crit chance and +15% speed movement) or invisible infiltrator (refills stealth and gives +15% damage which procs bloodbath that can hit even with +70% damage +combat advantage + vorpal crit sev % and I might have some stealth left to fire my stun+LB rotation).
TL&DR I can't really speak about TC since I did not use it that much
Well, before suggesting any nerfs to stealth in overall we should discuss that damage buff and restore TRs place as main damage dealer
There are more than 10-15 ways to counter a perma . As a cw you got 4-5 of them w/o counting lantern in them. Shut up and read a guide .I bet my butt that even with stealth being removed you will find a way into emo threads about further nerfs.
The only somewhat reasonable way to deal with a perma on your point is a good HR. A gwf dc can sort of stalemate. Most cases the gwf eventually goes down to shocking/whirlwind after being whittle with daggers and PoB. A lucky blind prone may turn the tides but usually tr runs till mostly healed before returning. I have 2500 regen on my I know others have similar builds.
TRs have been dominating domination since release. Their play style has always been both the most successful and least fun to oppose. First we had our one hit wonder builds where many of us would get 30+ kills a match while enemy had zero window to respond. Now we have this slower whittle down daily build where once again the average enemy has practically no window to respond.
Stealth with no active counter mechanic in game have messed up mmo pvp since as far back as I can remember.
Btw, not that I'm complaining, but why are we faster when stealthed? Cutting movement in half would actually help balance fighting stealthed toons.
Anyhow it should get adjusted. I already have a pretty solid dps/tank build to replace perma when it does.
Tc Nerf and boost on ways of tracking trs in stealth would be the ideal solution, Further Nerf on the stealth duration as i mentioned before will totally destroy WK build and make Infiltrator useless both on pve - pvp . We already have 125 % dps nerf on our classes .I have seen some idiots in this thread just trolling by saying to remove ITC dmg immunity which is the only evading skill we got and it depletes our stealth meter to do so .Most of you that cry about trs have never read any of the existing guides and have no clue at all how our class works . If you think that Trs are easy then try it . I dare ya .
The TR community would prefer TC nerf and slight dps boost / 2 more dodges .I think i am not asking much right ?
as for pvp, im not sure what they plan to do, though it scares me because they always overnerf Tr's. which means the combat tr's will get hit hard again
1. Remove all encounters and feats that replenish the stealth meter. Replace Shadow Strike with a new CC ability (not another stun though) or a DoT.
2. Any TR encounter power that hits another player/mob removes the TR from stealth. This does not apply for at-wills though.
3. ITC no longer gives damage immunity. Instead have it give increased deflect. CC immunity remains the same. This is regardless if activated from stealth or not. If a CC is used on a TR in or entering ITC it reduces the length of ITC duration.
4. Damage no longer reduces the stealth meter when a TR is outside stealth, only when in stealth.
The end result is you will have TRs popping in and out of stealth constantly, but no more permas. Outside stealth they will likely fire off ITC but you can still damage them. There is also still a window to use CC on them. Players will have to learn to recognize when a TR is in ITC to know to not fire a CC. For some that may be too much but you can't solve people being too lazy to learn things.
I didn't cover this but the DPS of a TR would have to be increased too. That is another subject since the discussion is on fixing the "perma problem". Permas are actually a result of too much dps nerfing to the class so this still needs addressed.
1 : No
2 : No
3 : No
In conclusion any of those changes will kill the Infiltrator path and will deplete the WK build completely . Learn tr mechanics and make those posts after that .