i never saw combat tr beat any pvp spec class or come close to it.combat tr can stalemate dc thats it
Trs w/o stealth are just cattle for other classes . Even an average geared DC can stall a nc geared combat tr purely made for dps for alot of time w/o dying ....But is seems that most of the players are raging on the fact that there is a class that demands from them to start using their brains in order to kill . Therefore we get nerfed since MOD 2 multiple times just because of this fact.The funny part is that we even post ourselves on Thieves Den ways to counter us but it seems they won't bother reading ...
cant wait for the stealth nerf.then everyone will see true face of dps tr hehe.
lol ? What dps ? Are you playing another game ? ? ? Since MOD 2 Came out we get consecutive NERFS on our dps ...Stop trolling you are drunk . Back to your HR .
I'd glady give out perma stealth for more dps or more cc. but just nerfing stealth without doing anything else wouldn't solve anything at all.
Thing is, in all my time playing, the most common complaint against the rogue was permastealth.
This has been the way it is from the start.
The only other thing myself and other players I know truly got frustrated with was the impact shot perma-stun nonsense. People complain about roar right now but I couldn't care less about roar compared to impact shot.
So again...I never minded the damage. Especially with the tenacity reduction to crits it has been kind of a double whammy anyway. I don't really care how it is done but all I want and all I have ever wanted for rogues was to not be able to be permastealth. In fact if you look back by biggest gripe was those dang daggers and path of blades. If not for those permastealth with be nothing but a nuisance but as it is right now...there's a reason they top the charts even though TR's keep trying to say they are underpowered.
The only other thing myself and other players I know truly got frustrated with was the impact shot perma-stun nonsense.
What they should have done is just remove the stun and left the damage. The class already has enough stun encounters (Dazing Strike and Smoke Bomb). Currently each shot of Impact Shot drops the damage of the next shot by 33%. With tenacity the stun from a shot lasts half a second. Impact Shot is currently useless in its present state. I wouldn't even suggest using it on daily runs in Sharandar it is so bad.
I don't really care how it is done but all I want and all I have ever wanted for rogues was to not be able to be permastealth.
Simple solution: Cryptic just needs to remove Shadow Strike. Problem solved. It really is that easy.
Just note that the class will be completely useless though for both PvP and, as it has been for some time, PvE. What people fail to realize is TR's are dependent on stealth. Most of the class's damage feats and most of their encounters are defined by it. They wear cloth armor so outside stealth they are easy prey to even an average DC. ITC only gives them short damage immunity when fired from stealth, lasts only as long as Unstoppable, and has a rather long cooldown. As I have warned others the class is about as broken as the GF in its current state. If you want a melee class there is really only one choice: the GWF. The GWF has better durability than a GF, more single target damage than a TR, and more survivability than an HR (after the next batch of announced nerfs).
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
I feel that TR's ability to stay in stealth 99% of the time more or less regardless of damage taken (unless CCed) needs to be looked into.
It not only breaks PVP (except against IV GWFs), but PvE as well where TRs can still just solo entire dungeons and bosses because they will never be attacked.
There are 2 things which enable TRs to stay permanently stealthed at present:
1. Gauntlgrym Set / Profound Set bonus granting longer stealth duration
2. Heroic Feat increasing Stealth duration
Additionally, unlike other powers, Impossible to Catch cooldown starts the moment it is activated rather than the moment its effect ends. This means that with sufficient Recharge Speed Increase, it is possible to have a very low downtime on this power: for example base cooldown reduced from 18s to 11s. 5 seconds uptime, meaning that the actual cooldown is only 6 seconds before the TR only takes 25% of any incoming damage (if any).
A purely PvE built TR actually can do very well in the current meta and is often underestimated. Sure, you need a Cleric in the party, but by design, every party should have one anyway. Damage against single target actually exceeds that of GWF since the mod3 changes and only lags behind very slightly in multi-target environments. However, TRs do bring considerable mob control with say Smoke Bomb and the like.
That's not to say that you couldn't replace the TR with yet another CW, but then again CWs dominate PvE content at present anyway and it is not fair to compare TR to CW.
The only other thing myself and other players I know truly got frustrated with was the impact shot perma-stun nonsense. People complain about roar right now but I couldn't care less about roar compared to impact shot.
Say what now? You can't compare impact stun with roar bug right now, just go with your TR on PvP "adventure"->go to stealth->spot GWF, go into ITC to avoid being proned->get roared, stunned and then when ITC wears off get proned and slammed for 14k crit....
Impact stun was annoying, roar bug is frustrating
I dont think TRs need to be "redisigned" very much at all.
I think TWO things could be added that would make them fairly viable again.
1) Give a class feature that boosts deflect up to the amount of stealth missing up to 15%.
2) Give TR the SAME HR "dodge" = short but MANY dodges.
3) Remove Shadow Strikes ability to refill stealth meter (unless used IN stealth)
4) Lashing Blade's *NEW* Stealth Bonus should be 50% reduced CD INSTEAD of 100% crit chance.
5) Impact Shot changed to TWO charges PERIOD - at previous damage (non of this less damage per stacks crud)
6) Smoke Bomb - add a DoT to targets IN smokebomb as the stealth bonus.
I think this would be a good start - this gives TRs decent survivability outside stealth, gives them decent damage an would make them somewhat fun again. This allows them to be geared towards damage dealing rather than just stealth and would STILL give them stealth options - but hard to go back into it once out.
1) you know that we can stay in stealth for (by default) ~5 seconds? Grim armour set gives us 25% which is ~2 sec, 15% will be ~0.75 sec so it will basically take almost entire second (out of 5!) from our class feature
2) I would be happy with 3 dodges that are something between TRs and HR dodges (perhaps small roll)
3) nope, it's the only way we can replenish stealth in battle (+lurker's assault but it's a daily) TR is the only class that has very few options to replenish its class feature in combat
4) ...and give it same feature as HRs Fox Shift (can spam while moving until it finds target) then OK; LB base damage is 6k-7k same as i.e. CWs Sudden Storm (which has linear AoE) or in some cases weaker than GWFs Indomitable Battle Strike (which is also linear AoE that also replenishes some of AP on killing blow) both of the above has less base cooldown, the only reason LB does massive damage are Vorpal enchant, Executioner feats and few class features. So if we wouldn't have that 100% crit on LB our dps in PvP may go lower than DCs (or you'll be just swarmed with permas-don't worry they'll find a way even if devs nerf stealth)
5) agreed
6) agreed (it is much better effect than actual slow)
i never saw combat tr beat any pvp spec class or come close to it.combat tr can stalemate dc thats it
um maybe you meant permastealth tr? because i am a combat TR and defeat pvp players alll the time,,, gf's and gwf's are my favorites
also there should not be any give and take here,, people saying take my stealth but give me dps in return is just stupid.. permastealth is just OP, so therefore take away the abilities that replenish stealth.. that is all you really need to do
plus those that think perma's do no damage obviously don't pay attention to the leaderboard where they have like 1000 kills to maybe 10 deaths.
there are a lot of classes "broken" right now.. hr's, gwf's (especially with this roar bug) and perma tr's are OP, they dont need to be nerfed to the ground like combat tr's have been but they need to be brought down a notch.
the main problem i have with all of this is the fact that these issues that come up that ruin pvp (like roar, and Hr's op'd set bonus) should be immediately fixed, not in game forever so that when you do fix them the people who have abused them all of a sudden feel like they were nerfed because now they actually have to rely on skills instead of bugs to win.
um maybe you meant permastealth tr? because i am a combat TR and defeat pvp players alll the time,,, gf's and gwf's are my favorites
also there should not be any give and take here,, people saying take my stealth but give me dps in return is just stupid.. permastealth is just OP, so therefore take away the abilities that replenish stealth.. that is all you really need to do
plus those that think perma's do no damage obviously don't pay attention to the leaderboard where they have like 1000 kills to maybe 10 deaths.
there are a lot of classes "broken" right now.. hr's, gwf's (especially with this roar bug) and perma tr's are OP, they dont need to be nerfed to the ground like combat tr's have been but they need to be brought down a notch.
the main problem i have with all of this is the fact that these issues that come up that ruin pvp (like roar, and Hr's op'd set bonus) should be immediately fixed, not in game forever so that when you do fix them the people who have abused them all of a sudden feel like they were nerfed because now they actually have to rely on skills instead of bugs to win.
i just saw 44k hp cw burst build with 27 int only 12con..
and cw is a joke compared to bis gwf
but u beat them with combat tr sure u do lol
same gear pvp spec combat tr with 2 offencive encounters cant beat a single class not even close
simple because trs dont even have 2 offencive encounters
Additionally, unlike other powers, Impossible to Catch cooldown starts the moment it is activated rather than the moment its effect ends. This means that with sufficient Recharge Speed Increase, it is possible to have a very low downtime on this power: for example base cooldown reduced from 18s to 11s. 5 seconds uptime, meaning that the actual cooldown is only 6 seconds before the TR only takes 25% of any incoming damage (if any).
.
No rogue has an 11 second cooldown on ITC. MY pvp specced CON/INT, recovery rogue with 2.3k recovery and 19 INT has a cooldown of 14.4 seconds and I can't stack anymore recovery without losing 6k hitpoints and 900+ regen which is not gonna happen. Most rogues stealth bar lasts about 9.7 seconds - itc is popped at end of that 9.7 seconds providing you haven't taken any damage, but one single swipe of a gwfs GPF sure strike, cw ray of enfeeble/hr's fox shift will cut that time down to about 7secs and very often even less, if i was up against another rogue using potb, the stealth/iTC combo will again be used much earlier than the 9.7 seconds. Rogues attack from stealth using duelist flurry, that is your time to put dots on them and affect their stealth meter and itc combo.
Here is an easy solution that will still allow for perma-stealth any time they attack just make them go into that shadowy state where they are semi-solid. Make it a cool down equal to the heal debuff that you get when your in combat. Now they still get all their stealth effects.
Please apply that feature to every class Tab-function.
Thank you.
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i just saw 44k hp cw burst build with 27 int only 12con..
and cw is a joke compared to bis gwf
but u beat them with combat tr sure u do lol
same gear pvp spec combat tr with 2 offencive encounters cant beat a single class not even close
simple because trs dont even have 2 offencive encounters
you seem to be forgettting our at wills, duelist's flurry plus bilethorn works wonders, feel free to pm me one day i will meet ya in Opvp and prove to you that combat tr's can and do beat other classes. It's people like you that make me laugh when they see me (as i dont stealth very often) and think they have an easy kill
1) you know that we can stay in stealth for (by default) ~5 seconds? Grim armour set gives us 25% which is ~2 sec, 15% will be ~0.75 sec so it will basically take almost entire second (out of 5!) from our class feature
2) I would be happy with 3 dodges that are something between TRs and HR dodges (perhaps small roll)
3) nope, it's the only way we can replenish stealth in battle (+lurker's assault but it's a daily) TR is the only class that has very few options to replenish its class feature in combat
4) ...and give it same feature as HRs Fox Shift (can spam while moving until it finds target) then OK; LB base damage is 6k-7k same as i.e. CWs Sudden Storm (which has linear AoE) or in some cases weaker than GWFs Indomitable Battle Strike (which is also linear AoE that also replenishes some of AP on killing blow) both of the above has less base cooldown, the only reason LB does massive damage are Vorpal enchant, Executioner feats and few class features. So if we wouldn't have that 100% crit on LB our dps in PvP may go lower than DCs (or you'll be just swarmed with permas-don't worry they'll find a way even if devs nerf stealth)
5) agreed
6) agreed (it is much better effect than actual slow)
enough ranting for today.... ;P
Im not sure what your point 1 is... You know what class features are? The little yellow things such as "skillful infiltrator" thats a class feature. Id say remove the run speed one, and put in "grants deflect based on the amount of missing stleath meter. Base 10%. Rank 2: +2.5% Rank 3: +2.5%" The idea here is - gives the TRs extra tankiness outside stealth but not necessarily IN stealth.
2) Yeah - again to keep TRs alive OUTSIDE stealth.
3) Yeah exactly the point, shouldnt be able to re-stealth in combat TRs need better ways to combat/live once out in the open.Heck id even suggest adding something to Shadow Strike so it ads a 2 second stun fram range - but no re-stealth thats part of what makes balancing the TR so hard - the "perma"
4) Ya im also fine with this - it should only be used when you can actually hit a target - trust me I used to play a burst TR and it sucked SO hard when you missed. Id LOVE to see Lashing back in the rotation but for that to happen it needs to be re-done AND TRs need to be able to survive outside stealth.
Overall I think a mix of ITC/Shadow Strike - stun/More dodges/More deflect/Impact back in rotation - gives TRs quite a bit of options... I still think more could be done but this is a start. I havnt played since mod 2 so im a little off my TR knowledge but I can say its PATHETIC what the TR has been reduced to.
IMO - The TR should PLAY like the HR currently does and the HR needs to be re-done so its PRIMARY focus is more on ranged abilities/support NOT being an ultra deflect tank beast that it is now - we already have a ton of melee toons we need the hunter RANGER to be a ranger... An easy start would be re-buffing the capstone again so you can get amazing aimed shots off....
feel free to pm me one day i will meet ya in Opvp and prove to you that combat tr's can and do beat other classes.
If you want to prove it, instead of putting of silly challenges just post your build. I'm sure everyone would love to see it. But somehow I doubt you will be forthcoming with such a request. Feel free to prove me wrong though.
you don't see many TR in PVE now (its all about GWF now), but its looks like on bosses TR do the highest damage
as for the PVP, maybe adding infravision/darkvision ability to tenacity can help and still keep the playstyle
for example with 10% u can see TR in 5 feet
with 20% u can see in 10 feet etc.
The best solution the devs can come up with is a 10-15 % nerf on Tenacious Concealment(ON EACH STAGE OF THE SKILL) . As a hybrid tr i repeat that any other nerf should destroy the class. Grimah if you get roared or interrupted or being taken down by a prone you are visible to others since they can approach you while you are lying on the floor .Since you all cry about stealth then the only thing i and the rest of the tr community should agree with is a nerf on TC .This will cause the stealth meter to deplete faster as we take DMG . ALOT faster . and since most classes got dot - over time dmg effect (not mentioning weapons echancements ) you will be able to counter our class HELLUVA Easy .
Buffing the range and the duration of the Lantern or the distance in which a rogue becomes visible is a nc solution too .
BUT NO NERFS ON STEALTH AND FOR FOR GOD'S SAKE NO MORE NERFS ON OUR DPS .
I'm all for either depleting stealth or making a short duration visibility while rogues are doing direct damage.
I've never cared about the damage that rogues do. I have always cared about the damage rogues do while you can't do anything about it particularly because good rogues can rotate stealth and ITC seamlessly. For all I care give them a bunch of damage back and reduce the effectiveness of the permastealth build, my one and only complaint against rogues.
Yeah permastealth is the problem. How people possibly think that gwfs hitting for 10k with whatever encounters they use, having ranged prone or the possibility to slow 5 prones should be fixed before looking to other classes?
Yeah permastealth is the problem. How people possibly think that gwfs hitting for 10k with whatever encounters they use, having ranged prone or the possibility to slow 5 prones should be fixed before looking to other classes?
nope. GWF survivability/damage ratio and perma stealth both should be addressed at the same time, picking one over the other is silly, ideally with the HR set changes but thats wishful thinking.
Im not sure what your point 1 is... You know what class features are? The little yellow things such as "skillful infiltrator" thats a class feature. Id say remove the run speed one, and put in "grants deflect based on the amount of missing stleath meter. Base 10%. Rank 2: +2.5% Rank 3: +2.5%" The idea here is - gives the TRs extra tankiness outside stealth but not necessarily IN stealth.
2) Yeah - again to keep TRs alive OUTSIDE stealth.
3) Yeah exactly the point, shouldnt be able to re-stealth in combat TRs need better ways to combat/live once out in the open.Heck id even suggest adding something to Shadow Strike so it ads a 2 second stun fram range - but no re-stealth thats part of what makes balancing the TR so hard - the "perma"
4) Ya im also fine with this - it should only be used when you can actually hit a target - trust me I used to play a burst TR and it sucked SO hard when you missed. Id LOVE to see Lashing back in the rotation but for that to happen it needs to be re-done AND TRs need to be able to survive outside stealth.
Overall I think a mix of ITC/Shadow Strike - stun/More dodges/More deflect/Impact back in rotation - gives TRs quite a bit of options... I still think more could be done but this is a start. I havnt played since mod 2 so im a little off my TR knowledge but I can say its PATHETIC what the TR has been reduced to.
IMO - The TR should PLAY like the HR currently does and the HR needs to be re-done so its PRIMARY focus is more on ranged abilities/support NOT being an ultra deflect tank beast that it is now - we already have a ton of melee toons we need the hunter RANGER to be a ranger... An easy start would be re-buffing the capstone again so you can get amazing aimed shots off....
as for 1) I actually didn't know as what stealth should be called so I sticked with "class feature" which I forgot to edit when I actually found out that CFs are already named and put as passive skills and as I see I did not quite understood what you were talking about initially in your post so in that case I'll agree that idea as good as 4) and 5) of yours
2) We agree on this one as well
3) Actually I doubt we will ever agree on this one because TRs are basing on being stealthy and for that they need stealth (duh!), GWF can replenish unstopable in combat just by being hit, DCs Divinity is replenished either by attacking or healing (<-by healing when has proper CF though) even GF have his ways to replenish shield in battle (though theese ways are something like trying to replenish stealth via feated Gloaming Cut without stealth) and here we have TR that if he want to deal damage and survive to see another day (battle) he has to stay in cover otherwise he is just as squishy as CW otherwise we of course can put our most damaging... bwahahaha...haha..yeaaaa... sorry about that but I just realised how much damaging powers we have that can actually hit enemy before he will run (run, not dodge) into safety and we will end up with power on CD (and being CCd and probably dead in 2 seconds as well:P). So my point is that TR is basing off stealth and thanks to SS he can stay in combat for longer otherwise TR would have to either become tanky as GWF/defl HR or run away from combat each time stealth is completly used.
Side note: removing SS ability to replenish stealth is like removing this ability, in its place something ferocious should be added that would make even high def/con GWFs shiver when they spot TR, also giving Duealist Flurry faster animation will help (but this should only happen with perma stealth nerf)
4) Technically that part about working as Fox Shift was bit of a sarcasm (I belive Fox Shift should be changed and work as GFs bull charge) but I wouldn't touch its ability to have 100% crit chance from stealth without lowering its CD to base 12 sec (also if we would get rid of SS then it should have both: 100% crit chance and base 12s CD since it will be the only time this skill will be able to deal 15k+ damage (and that's with executioner path).
While checking D&D wiki you will realise that LB should actually lower enemy attack as well ->http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Lashing_blade (you can find many things in that wiki, some will make you disappointed in what devs did to some skills or implemented some skills instead of others <sob> Storm Cage <sob> ). Frankly if LB would lost its 100% crit it would be useless (I think dazing strike would be almost as good if not better then)
All in all TR should deal more damage in its current form or become as tanky as HR at least.
As I would be happy with more survivability and more damage without need to stay constantly in stealth as I would be happy with moar CC on my CW with less dmg (Storm Cage!!! ->http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Spellstorm_Mage)
PS yea I know what do you mean with HR but thoose are mainly PvP specs, my PvE HR can't stand long in PvP close combat but he can compete with PvE CWs and GWFs so I'll have that for me
nope. GWF survivability/damage ratio and perma stealth both should be addressed at the same time, picking one over the other is silly, ideally with the HR set changes but thats wishful thinking.
Let me guess . You are a CW .Let me guess once again . You are a handles one that can't realize that his class was made to be a Support - Disable class and not for killing everything in sight .
as for 1) I actually didn't know as what stealth should be called so I sticked with "class feature" which I forgot to edit when I actually found out that CFs are already named and put as passive skills and as I see I did not quite understood what you were talking about initially in your post so in that case I'll agree that idea as good as 4) and 5) of yours
2) We agree on this one as well
3) Actually I doubt we will ever agree on this one because TRs are basing on being stealthy and for that they need stealth (duh!), GWF can replenish unstopable in combat just by being hit, DCs Divinity is replenished either by attacking or healing (<-by healing when has proper CF though) even GF have his ways to replenish shield in battle (though theese ways are something like trying to replenish stealth via feated Gloaming Cut without stealth) and here we have TR that if he want to deal damage and survive to see another day (battle) he has to stay in cover otherwise he is just as squishy as CW otherwise we of course can put our most damaging... bwahahaha...haha..yeaaaa... sorry about that but I just realised how much damaging powers we have that can actually hit enemy before he will run (run, not dodge) into safety and we will end up with power on CD (and being CCd and probably dead in 2 seconds as well:P). So my point is that TR is basing off stealth and thanks to SS he can stay in combat for longer otherwise TR would have to either become tanky as GWF/defl HR or run away from combat each time stealth is completly used.
Side note: removing SS ability to replenish stealth is like removing this ability, in its place something ferocious should be added that would make even high def/con GWFs shiver when they spot TR, also giving Duealist Flurry faster animation will help (but this should only happen with perma stealth nerf)
4) Technically that part about working as Fox Shift was bit of a sarcasm (I belive Fox Shift should be changed and work as GFs bull charge) but I wouldn't touch its ability to have 100% crit chance from stealth without lowering its CD to base 12 sec (also if we would get rid of SS then it should have both: 100% crit chance and base 12s CD since it will be the only time this skill will be able to deal 15k+ damage (and that's with executioner path).
While checking D&D wiki you will realise that LB should actually lower enemy attack as well ->http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Lashing_blade (you can find many things in that wiki, some will make you disappointed in what devs did to some skills or implemented some skills instead of others <sob> Storm Cage <sob> ). Frankly if LB would lost its 100% crit it would be useless (I think dazing strike would be almost as good if not better then)
All in all TR should deal more damage in its current form or become as tanky as HR at least.
As I would be happy with more survivability and more damage without need to stay constantly in stealth as I would be happy with moar CC on my CW with less dmg (Storm Cage!!! ->http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Spellstorm_Mage)
PS yea I know what do you mean with HR but thoose are mainly PvP specs, my PvE HR can't stand long in PvP close combat but he can compete with PvE CWs and GWFs so I'll have that for me
What about we get a nerf on TC so the max loss would be depleted from 90 % to 60-65 % ?This will allow our enemies to burn out our stealth meter in 1-2 seconds.Random trs won't be able to keep with that . In return i would love 3-4 dodges and a slight boost on impact shot dmg . I don't care about the Stun effect but more about the dmg burst of the skill .
For those pugs that are crying w/o spending even 1 min to read a tr guide TC is the passive skill "Tenacious Concealment " It prevents our loss of stealth meter from incoming dmg by 90 % . It's indeed way too op . Even trs admit it . This skill should be nerfed to 60 % . That Nerf will allow you to counter Trs helluva easy..
Nerfing Stealth and Encounters that fill it up will make trs Utterly useless on both pve - pvp since Every single encounter of our class not mentioning 2/3 of our feats are related with stealth .WhisperKnife class has no ITC so you will actually kill one of our Paths if you actually nerf stealth .
The simple fact is that tampering with stealth in any significant way will break the TR as the entire class is designed around being in stealth to be effective. You would need to redesign the class from the ground up with different feats and abilities. I don't have a problem with that, but I imagine that Cryptic don't have the resources to make such a major change with Mod 4 on the horizon.
Comments
This is a tr thread. We discuss TR's weaknesses and Powers . Not Cws and Gfs .
Trs w/o stealth are just cattle for other classes . Even an average geared DC can stall a nc geared combat tr purely made for dps for alot of time w/o dying ....But is seems that most of the players are raging on the fact that there is a class that demands from them to start using their brains in order to kill . Therefore we get nerfed since MOD 2 multiple times just because of this fact.The funny part is that we even post ourselves on Thieves Den ways to counter us but it seems they won't bother reading ...
lol ? What dps ? Are you playing another game ? ? ? Since MOD 2 Came out we get consecutive NERFS on our dps ...Stop trolling you are drunk . Back to your HR .
Only one TR paragon path has access to ITC.
Whisperknives are not allowed to play too?
You Imbecile . Trs aren't allowed to play @ all .
Thing is, in all my time playing, the most common complaint against the rogue was permastealth.
This has been the way it is from the start.
The only other thing myself and other players I know truly got frustrated with was the impact shot perma-stun nonsense. People complain about roar right now but I couldn't care less about roar compared to impact shot.
So again...I never minded the damage. Especially with the tenacity reduction to crits it has been kind of a double whammy anyway. I don't really care how it is done but all I want and all I have ever wanted for rogues was to not be able to be permastealth. In fact if you look back by biggest gripe was those dang daggers and path of blades. If not for those permastealth with be nothing but a nuisance but as it is right now...there's a reason they top the charts even though TR's keep trying to say they are underpowered.
What they should have done is just remove the stun and left the damage. The class already has enough stun encounters (Dazing Strike and Smoke Bomb). Currently each shot of Impact Shot drops the damage of the next shot by 33%. With tenacity the stun from a shot lasts half a second. Impact Shot is currently useless in its present state. I wouldn't even suggest using it on daily runs in Sharandar it is so bad.
Simple solution: Cryptic just needs to remove Shadow Strike. Problem solved. It really is that easy.
Just note that the class will be completely useless though for both PvP and, as it has been for some time, PvE. What people fail to realize is TR's are dependent on stealth. Most of the class's damage feats and most of their encounters are defined by it. They wear cloth armor so outside stealth they are easy prey to even an average DC. ITC only gives them short damage immunity when fired from stealth, lasts only as long as Unstoppable, and has a rather long cooldown. As I have warned others the class is about as broken as the GF in its current state. If you want a melee class there is really only one choice: the GWF. The GWF has better durability than a GF, more single target damage than a TR, and more survivability than an HR (after the next batch of announced nerfs).
It not only breaks PVP (except against IV GWFs), but PvE as well where TRs can still just solo entire dungeons and bosses because they will never be attacked.
There are 2 things which enable TRs to stay permanently stealthed at present:
1. Gauntlgrym Set / Profound Set bonus granting longer stealth duration
2. Heroic Feat increasing Stealth duration
Additionally, unlike other powers, Impossible to Catch cooldown starts the moment it is activated rather than the moment its effect ends. This means that with sufficient Recharge Speed Increase, it is possible to have a very low downtime on this power: for example base cooldown reduced from 18s to 11s. 5 seconds uptime, meaning that the actual cooldown is only 6 seconds before the TR only takes 25% of any incoming damage (if any).
A purely PvE built TR actually can do very well in the current meta and is often underestimated. Sure, you need a Cleric in the party, but by design, every party should have one anyway. Damage against single target actually exceeds that of GWF since the mod3 changes and only lags behind very slightly in multi-target environments. However, TRs do bring considerable mob control with say Smoke Bomb and the like.
That's not to say that you couldn't replace the TR with yet another CW, but then again CWs dominate PvE content at present anyway and it is not fair to compare TR to CW.
Say what now? You can't compare impact stun with roar bug right now, just go with your TR on PvP "adventure"->go to stealth->spot GWF, go into ITC to avoid being proned->get roared, stunned and then when ITC wears off get proned and slammed for 14k crit....
Impact stun was annoying, roar bug is frustrating
1) you know that we can stay in stealth for (by default) ~5 seconds? Grim armour set gives us 25% which is ~2 sec, 15% will be ~0.75 sec so it will basically take almost entire second (out of 5!) from our class feature
2) I would be happy with 3 dodges that are something between TRs and HR dodges (perhaps small roll)
3) nope, it's the only way we can replenish stealth in battle (+lurker's assault but it's a daily) TR is the only class that has very few options to replenish its class feature in combat
4) ...and give it same feature as HRs Fox Shift (can spam while moving until it finds target) then OK; LB base damage is 6k-7k same as i.e. CWs Sudden Storm (which has linear AoE) or in some cases weaker than GWFs Indomitable Battle Strike (which is also linear AoE that also replenishes some of AP on killing blow) both of the above has less base cooldown, the only reason LB does massive damage are Vorpal enchant, Executioner feats and few class features. So if we wouldn't have that 100% crit on LB our dps in PvP may go lower than DCs (or you'll be just swarmed with permas-don't worry they'll find a way even if devs nerf stealth)
5) agreed
6) agreed (it is much better effect than actual slow)
enough ranting for today.... ;P
um maybe you meant permastealth tr? because i am a combat TR and defeat pvp players alll the time,,, gf's and gwf's are my favorites
also there should not be any give and take here,, people saying take my stealth but give me dps in return is just stupid.. permastealth is just OP, so therefore take away the abilities that replenish stealth.. that is all you really need to do
plus those that think perma's do no damage obviously don't pay attention to the leaderboard where they have like 1000 kills to maybe 10 deaths.
there are a lot of classes "broken" right now.. hr's, gwf's (especially with this roar bug) and perma tr's are OP, they dont need to be nerfed to the ground like combat tr's have been but they need to be brought down a notch.
the main problem i have with all of this is the fact that these issues that come up that ruin pvp (like roar, and Hr's op'd set bonus) should be immediately fixed, not in game forever so that when you do fix them the people who have abused them all of a sudden feel like they were nerfed because now they actually have to rely on skills instead of bugs to win.
i just saw 44k hp cw burst build with 27 int only 12con..
and cw is a joke compared to bis gwf
but u beat them with combat tr sure u do lol
same gear pvp spec combat tr with 2 offencive encounters cant beat a single class not even close
simple because trs dont even have 2 offencive encounters
No rogue has an 11 second cooldown on ITC. MY pvp specced CON/INT, recovery rogue with 2.3k recovery and 19 INT has a cooldown of 14.4 seconds and I can't stack anymore recovery without losing 6k hitpoints and 900+ regen which is not gonna happen. Most rogues stealth bar lasts about 9.7 seconds - itc is popped at end of that 9.7 seconds providing you haven't taken any damage, but one single swipe of a gwfs GPF sure strike, cw ray of enfeeble/hr's fox shift will cut that time down to about 7secs and very often even less, if i was up against another rogue using potb, the stealth/iTC combo will again be used much earlier than the 9.7 seconds. Rogues attack from stealth using duelist flurry, that is your time to put dots on them and affect their stealth meter and itc combo.
Please apply that feature to every class Tab-function.
Thank you.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
you seem to be forgettting our at wills, duelist's flurry plus bilethorn works wonders, feel free to pm me one day i will meet ya in Opvp and prove to you that combat tr's can and do beat other classes. It's people like you that make me laugh when they see me (as i dont stealth very often) and think they have an easy kill
Im not sure what your point 1 is... You know what class features are? The little yellow things such as "skillful infiltrator" thats a class feature. Id say remove the run speed one, and put in "grants deflect based on the amount of missing stleath meter. Base 10%. Rank 2: +2.5% Rank 3: +2.5%" The idea here is - gives the TRs extra tankiness outside stealth but not necessarily IN stealth.
2) Yeah - again to keep TRs alive OUTSIDE stealth.
3) Yeah exactly the point, shouldnt be able to re-stealth in combat TRs need better ways to combat/live once out in the open.Heck id even suggest adding something to Shadow Strike so it ads a 2 second stun fram range - but no re-stealth thats part of what makes balancing the TR so hard - the "perma"
4) Ya im also fine with this - it should only be used when you can actually hit a target - trust me I used to play a burst TR and it sucked SO hard when you missed. Id LOVE to see Lashing back in the rotation but for that to happen it needs to be re-done AND TRs need to be able to survive outside stealth.
Overall I think a mix of ITC/Shadow Strike - stun/More dodges/More deflect/Impact back in rotation - gives TRs quite a bit of options... I still think more could be done but this is a start. I havnt played since mod 2 so im a little off my TR knowledge but I can say its PATHETIC what the TR has been reduced to.
IMO - The TR should PLAY like the HR currently does and the HR needs to be re-done so its PRIMARY focus is more on ranged abilities/support NOT being an ultra deflect tank beast that it is now - we already have a ton of melee toons we need the hunter RANGER to be a ranger... An easy start would be re-buffing the capstone again so you can get amazing aimed shots off....
If you want to prove it, instead of putting of silly challenges just post your build. I'm sure everyone would love to see it. But somehow I doubt you will be forthcoming with such a request. Feel free to prove me wrong though.
as for the PVP, maybe adding infravision/darkvision ability to tenacity can help and still keep the playstyle
for example with 10% u can see TR in 5 feet
with 20% u can see in 10 feet etc.
Instead i would suggest two things:
1. If caught in CC, they de-stealth. only daze does this currently, but stuns/knockback/down should also pull them out of stealth.
2. reduced movement speed by 40% ish
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Buffing the range and the duration of the Lantern or the distance in which a rogue becomes visible is a nc solution too .
BUT NO NERFS ON STEALTH AND FOR FOR GOD'S SAKE NO MORE NERFS ON OUR DPS .
I think that my previous post will satisfy you ..
nope. GWF survivability/damage ratio and perma stealth both should be addressed at the same time, picking one over the other is silly, ideally with the HR set changes but thats wishful thinking.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
as for 1) I actually didn't know as what stealth should be called so I sticked with "class feature" which I forgot to edit when I actually found out that CFs are already named and put as passive skills and as I see I did not quite understood what you were talking about initially in your post so in that case I'll agree that idea as good as 4) and 5) of yours
2) We agree on this one as well
3) Actually I doubt we will ever agree on this one because TRs are basing on being stealthy and for that they need stealth (duh!), GWF can replenish unstopable in combat just by being hit, DCs Divinity is replenished either by attacking or healing (<-by healing when has proper CF though) even GF have his ways to replenish shield in battle (though theese ways are something like trying to replenish stealth via feated Gloaming Cut without stealth) and here we have TR that if he want to deal damage and survive to see another day (battle) he has to stay in cover otherwise he is just as squishy as CW otherwise we of course can put our most damaging... bwahahaha...haha..yeaaaa... sorry about that but I just realised how much damaging powers we have that can actually hit enemy before he will run (run, not dodge) into safety and we will end up with power on CD (and being CCd and probably dead in 2 seconds as well:P). So my point is that TR is basing off stealth and thanks to SS he can stay in combat for longer otherwise TR would have to either become tanky as GWF/defl HR or run away from combat each time stealth is completly used.
Side note: removing SS ability to replenish stealth is like removing this ability, in its place something ferocious should be added that would make even high def/con GWFs shiver when they spot TR, also giving Duealist Flurry faster animation will help (but this should only happen with perma stealth nerf)
4) Technically that part about working as Fox Shift was bit of a sarcasm (I belive Fox Shift should be changed and work as GFs bull charge) but I wouldn't touch its ability to have 100% crit chance from stealth without lowering its CD to base 12 sec (also if we would get rid of SS then it should have both: 100% crit chance and base 12s CD since it will be the only time this skill will be able to deal 15k+ damage (and that's with executioner path).
While checking D&D wiki you will realise that LB should actually lower enemy attack as well ->http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Lashing_blade (you can find many things in that wiki, some will make you disappointed in what devs did to some skills or implemented some skills instead of others <sob> Storm Cage <sob> ). Frankly if LB would lost its 100% crit it would be useless (I think dazing strike would be almost as good if not better then)
All in all TR should deal more damage in its current form or become as tanky as HR at least.
As I would be happy with more survivability and more damage without need to stay constantly in stealth as I would be happy with moar CC on my CW with less dmg (Storm Cage!!! ->http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Spellstorm_Mage)
PS yea I know what do you mean with HR but thoose are mainly PvP specs, my PvE HR can't stand long in PvP close combat but he can compete with PvE CWs and GWFs so I'll have that for me
Let me guess . You are a CW .Let me guess once again . You are a handles one that can't realize that his class was made to be a Support - Disable class and not for killing everything in sight .
What about we get a nerf on TC so the max loss would be depleted from 90 % to 60-65 % ?This will allow our enemies to burn out our stealth meter in 1-2 seconds.Random trs won't be able to keep with that . In return i would love 3-4 dodges and a slight boost on impact shot dmg . I don't care about the Stun effect but more about the dmg burst of the skill .
For those pugs that are crying w/o spending even 1 min to read a tr guide TC is the passive skill "Tenacious Concealment " It prevents our loss of stealth meter from incoming dmg by 90 % . It's indeed way too op . Even trs admit it . This skill should be nerfed to 60 % . That Nerf will allow you to counter Trs helluva easy..
Nerfing Stealth and Encounters that fill it up will make trs Utterly useless on both pve - pvp since Every single encounter of our class not mentioning 2/3 of our feats are related with stealth .WhisperKnife class has no ITC so you will actually kill one of our Paths if you actually nerf stealth .
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder