The problem w/ GFs, (I have 2 level 60 GFs), is that when their guard is broken/depleted, they are SOL. A GWF, OTOH, can simply keep refilling defiance by taking damage or killing enemies. IMO, GFs should *never* be unable to block - I have suggested implementing a system where, even if their guard meter is depleted, a GF can still block, just that it'd function at a much decreased level.
or a way to quickly recover guard meter, by taking damage or something like that.
I would love see a huge regen on guard meter by attacking.
So the GF would have incentive to block, attack, block, attack.
I think Mark needs some kind of improvement.
I like that it reduces the target's resistance (I don't know by how much though) because this helps the team - but I think it should also increase the GF's ArPen vs. that target when that target is ignoring the GF - or some similar mechanic to punish targets that ignore the GF.
I would give GF a modified version of Come And Get It - instead of the damage boost, make it increase the GF's mitigation and make him CC resistant while casting. This would basically turn him into a mini-singularity machine and could also be used as a defensive measure. Now, add a skill that provides high aoe threat while debuffing the enemies defenses considerably as a follow-up.. i would LOVE to have such a GF on the team. Even with the dps race meta, such a GF would easily earn hes slot by boosting hes allies DPS potential.
I'm just going to state this again, for posterity...
I'd recommend focusing on improving the the Guardian Fighter, rather than the (seemingly endless) comparisons to Great Weapon Fighters. I understand the frustration with the Guardian Fighter's current viability in PvE/PvP, truly I do! However, I hope (and believe the Devs when they say) they are working on it. Is it done today? Unfortunately not, but again I believe keeping things focused on Guardian Fighters will be a more positive experience for everyone.
I'm just going to state this again, for posterity...
I'd recommend focusing on improving the the Guardian Fighter, rather than the (seemingly endless) comparisons to Great Weapon Fighters. I understand the frustration with the Guardian Fighter's current viability in PvE/PvP, truly I do! However, I hope (and believe the Devs when they say) they are working on it. Is it done today? Unfortunately not, but again I believe keeping things focused on Guardian Fighters will be a more positive experience for everyone.
Just my 2 koku... :cool:
Agreed, but in order for a GF to get back to being useful he must gain or have abilities that make the GWF better, so not get the same stuff of course but the GWF must be used as a comparison as they are both fighters and one of them has everything the other has little.
We use the GWF as an example, only to align the classes counterpoints. That way when the GF is adjusted hopefull he will be better for tanking and survivability then the GWF because if he's not!!! Well then we are back to where we are now...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The GF has Fighter's Recovery which can keep him kiting every add indefinitely without a DC.
If you are talking only about kiting I don't even need to use Fighter's Recovery to survive, but in the rest of the dungeon or in the bosses that you don't have to kite there's a problem with this daily, it doesn't make you CC inmune, if it did this would be a great improvement in our survival, cause I've dead a lot of times for being CCed or Proned while I was using Fighter's Recovery.
Now about the Mark... I would love to see it doing more than a little Threat generation, it should do more things, for example, make it do a 5% Damage Resistance Debuff on marked enemies (and then the Tab Mark would work even on PvP), but again, IV GWF would be doing the same and better, Idk what could be done to fix this situation, but I would start giving GWF another Path, as also to the GF.
If you are talking only about kiting I don't even need to use Fighter's Recovery to survive, but in the rest of the dungeon or in the bosses that you don't have to kite there's a problem with this daily, it doesn't make you CC inmune, if it did this would be a great improvement in our survival, cause I've dead a lot of times for being CCed or Proned while I was using Fighter's Recovery.
Now about the Mark... I would love to see it doing more than a little Threat generation, it should do more things, for example, make it do a 5% Damage Resistance Debuff on marked enemies (and then the Tab Mark would work even on PvP), but again, IV GWF would be doing the same and better, Idk what could be done to fix this situation, but I would start giving GWF another Path, as also to the GF.
AFAIK it's supposed to already be reducing resistance:
Mark is mainly used on bosses and strong enemies so the Guardian Fighter can keep threat and take the damage instead of the other party members. It also lowers Damage Resistance. If you fail to block an attack or get hit by an enemy, the Mark on that enemy is removed.
AFAIK it's supposed to already be reducing resistance:
Mark is mainly used on bosses and strong enemies so the Guardian Fighter can keep threat and take the damage instead of the other party members. It also lowers Damage Resistance. If you fail to block an attack or get hit by an enemy, the Mark on that enemy is removed.
We use the GWF as an example, only to align the classes counterpoints.
Certain individuals posting history would disagree with this statement. As many thread simply become GWF bashing, and not GF promoting. That is my point... Instead of focusing on how much 'better' the GWF may be, one should be focusing on what they would like to see to make the GF better.
The GF can be useful, and should be, with their own Unique abilities. At least that is what I believe from a design standpoint.
Certain individuals posting history would disagree with this statement. As many thread simply become GWF bashing, and not GF promoting. That is my point... Instead of focusing on how much 'better' the GWF may be, one should be focusing on what they would like to see to make the GF better.
Pretty simple concept! :cool:
Agreed, but since Tanking is not really aprt of the game what can the GF ascertain that would give him a place in PvE / PvP? He would have to be better then someone else no? There are 6 classes only 5 can join a party, so if the GWF is still better at face tanking and survivability, while doing monster DPS I don't see where the new and improved GF would fit in?
Thats all i am saying
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Agreed, but since Tanking is not really aprt of the game what can the GF ascertain that would give him a place in PvE / PvP? He would have to be better then someone else no? There are 6 classes only 5 can join a party, so if the GWF is still better at face tanking and survivability, while doing monster DPS I don't see where the new and improved GF would fit in?
Thats all i am saying
The rainbow party days is ower 5 CW or 4 CW+1 DC or 4CW +1 GWF for single target.
Look around HR bad for pve TR bad for pve GF super bad for pve DC GWF optional but CW always must have.
Ofc y can go with friends but y will feel y self always negligible as GF (or lesser negligible as TR HR)
Just stand still and watch 5 min LFG in the time of dd event its always 5 CW or 4 CW+1 DC or 4CW +1 GWF this setup "and somtimes they even say NO GWF ".
As my main was GF ower a half year i feel y pain but what i always miss from my skill bar is Come and GET it this skill is what GF really need "ofc larger radius and+ some dmg ".
...I don't see where the new and improved GF would fit in?
That is really on the Devs overrall. However stating what you'd like the GF to do seems infinitely more productive...
Examples:
Higher base weapon damage? Seems legit to me!
Or having improved Threat (similar to Arcane Singularity from CWs)? Seems like a brilliant suggestion!
Maybe having the Guard Meter absorb more damage, and/or recharge in a better way? Sure appears to be somethings that's needed!
GWFs do EVERYTHING better, and I hate it so I am taking my ball and going home!!! Seems a bit childish to me, and completely unsupportive of improving GFs...
In summation:
Thats all i am saying[/QUOTE]
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
Yeah, let's make TRs and CWs unable to solo daily quests.
it way outperforms regen
That's because regen is terrible. You take a hit of 15K damage and then what? Wait 3 seconds to heal 1500 HP? I wonder if you're playing the same game if you think this is feasible.
That is really on the Devs overrall. However stating what you'd like the GF to do seems infinitely more productive...
Examples:
Higher base weapon damage? Seems legit to me!
Or having improved Threat (similar to Arcane Singularity from CWs)? Seems like a brilliant suggestion!
Maybe having the Guard Meter absorb more damage, and/or recharge in a better way? Sure appears to be somethings that's needed!
GWFs do EVERYTHING better, and I hate it so I am taking my ball and going home!!! Seems a bit childish to me, and completely unsupportive of improving GFs...
In summation:
Thats all i am saying
[/QUOTE]
Well as you main 3 GWF I am sure your happy as can be, but until I get official word that any of the above mentioned problems will be addressed I have really nothing to be positive about. Been playing about half a year little more, I've seen many patches and adjustment yet none for the GF that matter. SO I get what your saying but, I will continue to post until I am not allowed to do so...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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chuckfindleyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited June 2014
As this thread started GF's are not something really... and that's too bad as for tanking I mean...
The CW or GWF wipe any map anywhere... lately 5 GWF is the bible... so as GF you can only beg some people in the guild to lead you along...
My main is GF and I play it for fun and invest all AD in it - that I collect with GWF - logic right... I run half naked with gwf moping up anything in my path...
As for GF that need to kite adds and guard crybabies form CW's and DC's... it is not his "role" - I never do that - a real player of any class will fight head on and lick his wounds...
GF role is to engage boss - aggro all map on him.. survive the beating - while the rest dps and burn them all... this is how my guild does it - fast and no brainer... GF 40K life, 50DR, 30 dodge etc... conqueror tree
how you survive as GF - simple do not use block and do not revive anyone. Block will only slow you down and the mobs or boss will wipe the floor with you... you have to dance around boss and prone as many adds as possible...
I saw DC's kite, CW's controlling the mobs (this is a CW job not GF's)
I played all classes so far and I never need any GF babysitter or GF kite...
At the end I will say the best time ever I had in DD's is 4GF + 1DC or GWF... takes few hours but it is fun as hell... at 1 point my guild ran "almost" all DD's like this - just for fun... and yes it is doable... no one was crying and weeping...
Yeah, let's make TRs and CWs unable to solo daily quests.
That's because regen is terrible. You take a hit of 15K damage and then what? Wait 3 seconds to heal 1500 HP? I wonder if you're playing the same game if you think this is feasible.
Read through the thread, I'm not going to explain it again. TRs will never hit the cap in my suggestion, there is no change to soloing ability of any class.
And it's supposed to be that way, healing mechanics are supposed to work in conjunction with each other to achieve the most effectiveness, ie. some regen, some lifesteal, and using healing pots when needed, and in tough team situations that includes a DC. If simply one mechanic outperforms overshadowing the need for the others, there is an imbalance.
Balance does not mean Lifesteal need to have the exact same HPS as Regen, or both the same HPS as a Potion, so it isn't about comparaing direct numbers alone.
SO I get what your saying but, I will continue to post until I am not allowed to do so...
If you get what I'm saying you'll understand that focusing on what can be done to improve the GF will be infinitely more productive then continuously bashing GWFs...
AFAIK it's supposed to already be reducing resistance:
Mark is mainly used on bosses and strong enemies so the Guardian Fighter can keep threat and take the damage instead of the other party members. It also lowers Damage Resistance. If you fail to block an attack or get hit by an enemy, the Mark on that enemy is removed.
I'm just going to state this again, for posterity...
I'd recommend focusing on improving the the Guardian Fighter, rather than the (seemingly endless) comparisons to Great Weapon Fighters. I understand the frustration with the Guardian Fighter's current viability in PvE/PvP, truly I do! However, I hope (and believe the Devs when they say) they are working on it. Is it done today? Unfortunately not, but again I believe keeping things focused on Guardian Fighters will be a more positive experience for everyone.
Just my 2 koku... :cool:
Unfortunately the GWF sets the bar for tanking in this game, so when debating the survivability and tanking aspects of the GF, the GWF will be mentioned and used as a barometer.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
CW is out of whack (Devs admit it, but haven't done anything about it yet), GWF got 'nerfed' hard with Module 3 - and the change to power, and the 2 Feats that turn defensive or utility stats into 'More Power' resulted in the GWF being even more over the top than CWs.
Also, the issues why the 2 'prime' AoE classes (CW and GWF) are more tanky than GFs:
- They can dodge/sprint, potentially moving out of heavy hits. A GF is doomed to stand there and watch his block be broken.
- They deal more damage than you, so they get more mileage out of 'Lifesteal', giving them an easier self-sustain.
- CWs usually use Steal Time with High Vizier gear to stack defense on themselves, plus they have control components in pretty much every high Damage ability
- GWFs have Unstoppable, so they eat 1 or 2 Red circles, mash Tab, and become immune against controls and recieve a good chunk of Damage Reduction. Rinse, Repeat.
dude gwf didnt get nerfed module 3 man, where the **** have you been?
Unfortunately the GWF sets the bar for tanking in this game, so when debating the survivability and tanking aspects of the GF, the GWF will be mentioned and used as a barometer.
Oh I understand that, I am simply advocating doing it in a constructive/mature/polite manner. That's all!
Oh I understand that, I am simply advocating doing it in a constructive/mature/polite manner. That's all!
The GWF is superior in healing, DR, DPS, lifesteal self sufficient pooling of hp, mobility, immunity... For the GF to dethrone the GWF he would have to be better!
My fear is to make GF better than a GWF may break the game, as you would have to make GF a god in the game to do that. So ultimately the GWF would need to be toned down and made to spec DPS / Tank / OFF Tank DPS.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The GWF is superior in healing, DR, DPS, lifesteal self sufficient pooling of hp, mobility, immunity... For the GF to dethrone the GWF he would have to be better!
My fear is to make GF better than a GWF may break the game, as you would have to make GF a god in the game to do that. So ultimately the GWF would need to be toned down and made to spec DPS / Tank / OFF Tank DPS.
Doesn't have to be. What GF needs is not to be better than GWF, rather a balanced environment where GF has a place to do what we were meant to do.
Quite simple, really:
* Control powers do little damage (including all daze / prone skills)
* all damaging powers cannot have control effects
* diminishing return on control effects, so if you stack 2 CWs or 2 GWFs with the same control powers, after a while adds become immune to control
* control immune adds should hit much harder and much faster
* tank should have much more HP and mitigation than the rest. conqueror specced GF should be DPS only
Comments
Life steal on a class that hits for massive damage medium speed = Awesome
Life Steal on a class that hits for low damage slowly = Not so good
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I would love see a huge regen on guard meter by attacking.
So the GF would have incentive to block, attack, block, attack.
I think Mark needs some kind of improvement.
I like that it reduces the target's resistance (I don't know by how much though) because this helps the team - but I think it should also increase the GF's ArPen vs. that target when that target is ignoring the GF - or some similar mechanic to punish targets that ignore the GF.
I'd recommend focusing on improving the the Guardian Fighter, rather than the (seemingly endless) comparisons to Great Weapon Fighters. I understand the frustration with the Guardian Fighter's current viability in PvE/PvP, truly I do! However, I hope (and believe the Devs when they say) they are working on it. Is it done today? Unfortunately not, but again I believe keeping things focused on Guardian Fighters will be a more positive experience for everyone.
Just my 2 koku... :cool:
Agreed, but in order for a GF to get back to being useful he must gain or have abilities that make the GWF better, so not get the same stuff of course but the GWF must be used as a comparison as they are both fighters and one of them has everything the other has little.
We use the GWF as an example, only to align the classes counterpoints. That way when the GF is adjusted hopefull he will be better for tanking and survivability then the GWF because if he's not!!! Well then we are back to where we are now...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
If you are talking only about kiting I don't even need to use Fighter's Recovery to survive, but in the rest of the dungeon or in the bosses that you don't have to kite there's a problem with this daily, it doesn't make you CC inmune, if it did this would be a great improvement in our survival, cause I've dead a lot of times for being CCed or Proned while I was using Fighter's Recovery.
Now about the Mark... I would love to see it doing more than a little Threat generation, it should do more things, for example, make it do a 5% Damage Resistance Debuff on marked enemies (and then the Tab Mark would work even on PvP), but again, IV GWF would be doing the same and better, Idk what could be done to fix this situation, but I would start giving GWF another Path, as also to the GF.
AFAIK it's supposed to already be reducing resistance:
Mark is mainly used on bosses and strong enemies so the Guardian Fighter can keep threat and take the damage instead of the other party members. It also lowers Damage Resistance. If you fail to block an attack or get hit by an enemy, the Mark on that enemy is removed.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Mark
Its something like 8% if I remember correctly.
Good to know, thanks!
The GF can be useful, and should be, with their own Unique abilities. At least that is what I believe from a design standpoint.
Certain individuals posting history would disagree with this statement. As many thread simply become GWF bashing, and not GF promoting. That is my point... Instead of focusing on how much 'better' the GWF may be, one should be focusing on what they would like to see to make the GF better.
Pretty simple concept! :cool:
Agreed, but since Tanking is not really aprt of the game what can the GF ascertain that would give him a place in PvE / PvP? He would have to be better then someone else no? There are 6 classes only 5 can join a party, so if the GWF is still better at face tanking and survivability, while doing monster DPS I don't see where the new and improved GF would fit in?
Thats all i am saying
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The rainbow party days is ower 5 CW or 4 CW+1 DC or 4CW +1 GWF for single target.
Look around HR bad for pve TR bad for pve GF super bad for pve DC GWF optional but CW always must have.
Ofc y can go with friends but y will feel y self always negligible as GF (or lesser negligible as TR HR)
Just stand still and watch 5 min LFG in the time of dd event its always 5 CW or 4 CW+1 DC or 4CW +1 GWF this setup "and somtimes they even say NO GWF
As my main was GF ower a half year i feel y pain but what i always miss from my skill bar is Come and GET it this skill is what GF really need "ofc larger radius and+ some dmg ".
Examples:
Higher base weapon damage? Seems legit to me!
Or having improved Threat (similar to Arcane Singularity from CWs)? Seems like a brilliant suggestion!
Maybe having the Guard Meter absorb more damage, and/or recharge in a better way? Sure appears to be somethings that's needed!
GWFs do EVERYTHING better, and I hate it so I am taking my ball and going home!!! Seems a bit childish to me, and completely unsupportive of improving GFs...
In summation:
Thats all i am saying[/QUOTE]
That's because regen is terrible. You take a hit of 15K damage and then what? Wait 3 seconds to heal 1500 HP? I wonder if you're playing the same game if you think this is feasible.
Well as you main 3 GWF I am sure your happy as can be, but until I get official word that any of the above mentioned problems will be addressed I have really nothing to be positive about. Been playing about half a year little more, I've seen many patches and adjustment yet none for the GF that matter. SO I get what your saying but, I will continue to post until I am not allowed to do so...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The CW or GWF wipe any map anywhere... lately 5 GWF is the bible... so as GF you can only beg some people in the guild to lead you along...
My main is GF and I play it for fun and invest all AD in it - that I collect with GWF - logic right... I run half naked with gwf moping up anything in my path...
As for GF that need to kite adds and guard crybabies form CW's and DC's... it is not his "role" - I never do that - a real player of any class will fight head on and lick his wounds...
GF role is to engage boss - aggro all map on him.. survive the beating - while the rest dps and burn them all... this is how my guild does it - fast and no brainer... GF 40K life, 50DR, 30 dodge etc... conqueror tree
how you survive as GF - simple do not use block and do not revive anyone. Block will only slow you down and the mobs or boss will wipe the floor with you... you have to dance around boss and prone as many adds as possible...
I saw DC's kite, CW's controlling the mobs (this is a CW job not GF's)
I played all classes so far and I never need any GF babysitter or GF kite...
At the end I will say the best time ever I had in DD's is 4GF + 1DC or GWF... takes few hours but it is fun as hell... at 1 point my guild ran "almost" all DD's like this - just for fun... and yes it is doable... no one was crying and weeping...
And it's supposed to be that way, healing mechanics are supposed to work in conjunction with each other to achieve the most effectiveness, ie. some regen, some lifesteal, and using healing pots when needed, and in tough team situations that includes a DC. If simply one mechanic outperforms overshadowing the need for the others, there is an imbalance.
Balance does not mean Lifesteal need to have the exact same HPS as Regen, or both the same HPS as a Potion, so it isn't about comparaing direct numbers alone.
I always am, even when the GWFs went through their nadir from May 2013 till December 2013... Just playing the game because I love it!
If you get what I'm saying you'll understand that focusing on what can be done to improve the GF will be infinitely more productive then continuously bashing GWFs...
Oh, ok, I didn't know that, my fault.
Unfortunately the GWF sets the bar for tanking in this game, so when debating the survivability and tanking aspects of the GF, the GWF will be mentioned and used as a barometer.
dude gwf didnt get nerfed module 3 man, where the **** have you been?
Only feedback from educated players shall be considered
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
One spec got nerfed and one got buffed.
The tank tree lost the stupid amount of damage it got from low-tier destroyer perks.
The destroyer tree got obvious and substantial damage increases.
GWFs weren't nerfed or buffed, directly. Simply their trees not rebalanced.
Another secret: GWF is the upgraded version of GF. In pretty much all aspects.
In PVE their dps went down with Mod 3, unless their gear sucks, in which case it should be higher now.
The GWF is superior in healing, DR, DPS, lifesteal self sufficient pooling of hp, mobility, immunity... For the GF to dethrone the GWF he would have to be better!
My fear is to make GF better than a GWF may break the game, as you would have to make GF a god in the game to do that. So ultimately the GWF would need to be toned down and made to spec DPS / Tank / OFF Tank DPS.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Doesn't have to be. What GF needs is not to be better than GWF, rather a balanced environment where GF has a place to do what we were meant to do.
Quite simple, really:
* Control powers do little damage (including all daze / prone skills)
* all damaging powers cannot have control effects
* diminishing return on control effects, so if you stack 2 CWs or 2 GWFs with the same control powers, after a while adds become immune to control
* control immune adds should hit much harder and much faster
* tank should have much more HP and mitigation than the rest. conqueror specced GF should be DPS only
Why better? Just make gwf a gwf again by giving back IV to GF. At the moment, gwfs are GFs with Unstoppable.