A couple of things more perceptions than mechanics. First at this point there are a lot of players that will not allow the GF to do their job. Classic example helping a friend gear up on a FH run which is easy-peasy for a GF. Unless, as in this case, the CW and HR decide to lite off every AOE they have in the race for Paingiver. We had to take 4 runs at the final boss and fortunately on the 4th the CW over-aggroed and got himself killed early and I could grab most of the mobs (I let the HR fend for himself) as my friend and the TR finished off the boss.
Second there is another reason to go conq/ DPs with the GF. Because 4 out of 5 delves someboddy is going to be fighting you over aggro you'll need more than marks to hold the mob's attention. And no matter how tanky you build you cannot eat all of it. So selective shield use, mobility, and a little extra DPS goes a long way.
Third there is a systematic problem with Paingiver and people in this game do not recognize it and hence over-estimate it's importance. Paingiver counts overdamage. That is if the mob has 5k left and you hit it for 6k you get credit for 6k damage. If it has 5k and you hit it for 30k you get credit for 30k damage. This particularilly distorts the rating of high damage AOEs. Or the practice of using IBS on a target that is low so you can get the extra action points. For the GF (and to a lesser extent the HR) who has a lot of AOEs but no high-damage attacks it means that their effective damage is ranked lower because they do not over-damage. If you finish off a mob with cleave, FLS, or ET you are not likely to get much more Paingiver points than they had HP. If they get it from potato....
The problem w/ GFs, (I have 2 level 60 GFs), is that when their guard is broken/depleted, they are SOL. A GWF, OTOH, can simply keep refilling defiance by taking damage or killing enemies. IMO, GFs should *never* be unable to block - I have suggested implementing a system where, even if their guard meter is depleted, a GF can still block, just that it'd function at a much decreased level.
This simple GF change can go a long way.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
This here is two pronged, GFs can certainly make a run easier for the party, but beyond a certain GS bracket, they become completely unnecessary.
That's why high GS GFs no longer bother to tank and simply maximise their DPS for efficiency. Who needs them when players can already dps down adds so fast and outheal the damage they can take?
So the blame goes both ways.
Sorry but are you saying that a high GS player is to blame for his power in combat ? So what then ? Nerf my GS ? What the heck people ? What you really need to focus on is positive changes or how the mods like to call it " constructive discussions" or whatever. Think how a weaker class can improve , dont be hatin' on a strong class and most definitely dont hate on a strong player who invested time and money into his 18K GS toon.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
eg. retains it's % but capped at a maximum of a fixed percentage of your max health each time it procs, which can only be affected by boons, to make them meaningful
end of CWF stacked farms, DCs and GFs rejoice, TRs still wait for class review
I'm not in favour of ''helping'' one class by nerfing others. And I am a GF.
It would be the biggest cop-out if Cryptic fiddled with other classes and aspects of the game in an attempt to ''help'' the GF.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
This post is only about pve situations, especially boss fights.
It seems to me that there's a big misconception about a GF's role in this game, probably based on the way tanky classes are played in other games. The perception is that being the tank means taking the most damage while still dealing plenty. In this game, that's the GWF. GFs are set up to be the distraction. They are the ones that scream "HEY, UGLY, COME GET ME!" while running around with their defenses up. They need to leave the boss alone, it's going to go where it wants to anyway. Get all the agro you can from everything else and run it around as long as possible. That gives everyone else the time needed to bring down the boss. 4 mediocre players can bring down a boss if they're with a great GF that knows what they're doing. Everybody plays their role and everybody wins. When the GF decides to run in and punch the big baddie in the face, CWs and DCs are left running for their lives from 50 adds and there's often lots of dying involved. I saw this a bunch this weekend with the CTA. Nearly every time I was in a group with a well geared level 60 GF, they were going for the boss, and whether I was on my GWF, CW, DC, or HR, I had to abandon a large part of my role to either go after adds or just run for my life.
Are you a GF? Has your GF ever been surrounded by a large number of mobs? How long did it last?
Conversely, my GWF with less defense, less deflection, fewer HP and no shield THRIVES when surrounded by a mob.
If anything, the GWF is the one that is designed to cope with a mass of adds. It has better mobility and superior survivability.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
No... the truth is, they've never really been able to do this that well.
I've been playing this game for almost a year now and that problem has always been there. Me, as a CW running for my life in a crowd of mobs while the GF runs out and ignored their primary responsibillty as a protector.
The easy remedy was a GWF. At least togather we could have a prone/stun fest if there wasn't going to be any agro control in the first place.
I've been pushing lately for greater Agro control for GFs... but it won't do a **** bit of good if I continue to see what I've been doing since the beginning of this game.
Where you perhaps one of those CWs that dropped a nice AOE over Hrimnir then shouted at the GF for losing aggro?
The two fail runs I've had in FH was when the other four classes engaged the adds. And on both occasions they blamed me. DPS > GF's aggro mechanic. If you hit the Troll it will almost certainly ignore the GF. And I know this from the other side, having both a GWF and a DC. If a Troll or Golem attacks me I ignore it, dance around and wait for it to respond to the GF's mark, which it will inevitably do, so long as I leave it alone.
Leave the ******* troll alone and it will come to me (GF). Drop your AOE all over the place and they will ignore me (GF). Quite simple, really.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Sorry but are you saying that a high GS player is to blame for his power in combat ? So what then ? Nerf my GS ? What the heck people ? What you really need to focus on is positive changes or how the mods like to call it " constructive discussions" or whatever. Think how a weaker class can improve , dont be hatin' on a strong class and most definitely dont hate on a strong player who invested time and money into his 18K GS toon.
I've said nothing of that sort, the discrepancy has widened with the GS inflation, and on the side of DPS classes, their amplification is much higher due to their initially higher damage which made Lifesteal a go to for tankiness.
This gap exists whether a player HAS or HAS NOT invested to to achieve your 18k GS. The blame is not only on the GF CLASS (not player) being left behind due to power creep, but also on the side of DPS getting overbuffed.
I'm not in favour of ''helping'' one class by nerfing others. And I am a GF.
It would be the biggest cop-out if Cryptic fiddled with other classes and aspects of the game in an attempt to ''help'' the GF.
Some people see the word "nerf" and rationality goes out the door. My suggestion has in no way "nerf" solo survivabilty of DPS builds relying on it.
But of course, survivability is subjective, if I see being able to solo most content including single mobs of a minor HE as survivable DPS, someone else will want soloing a T2 dungeon or Epic HE as the bar.
When you see something out of whack, the best you can do is bring it back in line.
sometimes I had to stop attacking and run in circles to don't get aggro and die while the GWF was grouping and grouping mobs of enemies and surviving due to Life Steal and Unsto
You should have titled your thread "This is what I don't understand about GF".
The mechanism of gwf is to take damage, dynamic tanking sort of. If for some reason (lag, chain-flying in the air, whatever, he stops delivering damage, he dies. Your mechanism is more about resisting the damage. What is not normal is that you cannot stand the damage and have to run around. That is the un-understandable part. Most GFs complain they cannot keep aggro, it's rare to meet one who says he will die if he takes the aggro.
You should have titled your thread "This is what I don't understand about GF".
The mechanism of gwf is to take damage, dynamic tanking sort of. If for some reason (lag, chain-flying in the air, whatever, he stops delivering damage, he dies. Your mechanism is more about resisting the damage. What is not normal is that you cannot stand the damage and have to run around. That is the un-understandable part. Most GFs complain they cannot keep aggro, it's rare to meet one who says he will die if he takes the aggro.
Correct. In T1/T2 runs my Conq has no issues taking aggro, the inadequacy is felt when my GF has all the adds on himself and then they break his guard before you can blink.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
why a DPS Build in a DPS Class can survive much better than a Tanky Build in a Tanky Class
While I agree that GWFs being able to have near the same tankyness as a GF and deal much more damage is crazy, nothing out tanks a correctly built and played GF.
My GF is set up to have Knight's Valor on as much as possible, able to easily tank Castle Never like it's a joke.
Some people see the word "nerf" and rationality goes out the door. My suggestion has in no way "nerf" solo survivabilty of DPS builds relying on it.
But of course, survivability is subjective, if I see being able to solo most content including single mobs of a minor HE as survivable DPS, someone else will want soloing a T2 dungeon or Epic HE as the bar.
When you see something out of whack, the best you can do is bring it back in line.
Whether one interprets that as a nerf or fix does not matter. Eroding or tweaking - or however you want to phrase it - the benefits of Life Steal on a CW/GWF does not make the GF better. About the only class that will indirectly benefit from that is a DC. Changing it does not help the GF and is some cases will even hurt the GF as many GFs have begun experimenting with Life Steal as a means of trying to address their lack of survivability. I myself will begin looking in to it, having already purchased a companion that provides Life Steal.
Giving the GF a larger HP pool by class default or providing the GF with a feat that ramps up damage resistance, that is how you address the GF. Not by revising Life Steal. The GF remaining the same paper-clad warrior while GWFs and CWs lose their own survivability benefits no one.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I was yesterday in fh a few times (to get my t2 boots! Which I did not get ) and those circumstances were very similar to one of my runs. One of the gwf (gs 10.8) disconnected earlier in the dungeon but we went on with only 4 guys, 2 gwf, gf and a cw. We got to the final boss where the others got killed me and the gf but the boss was around 75% health. I solo'd the boss from there on out while the gf ran around being chased by hundreds of mobs. It was there where I understood why the gwf has to be like it is. When all hope fails the gwf pulls through with the help of his friends. For if it were not for the cw we would have been... If it were not for the gf we could not have finished the last boss in that situation.
Why ask for a nerf? If you ask me PvE wise it is nice to have a back up plan, but I will agree on some nerf PvP wise and NOT PvE.
Always keep it Classy
Classy Hyena: HR Classy Mistress: GWF
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm not in favour of ''helping'' one class by nerfing others. And I am a GF.
It would be the biggest cop-out if Cryptic fiddled with other classes and aspects of the game in an attempt to ''help'' the GF.
As I see it, sometime you can't just buff a class to make it viable. You have to bring other classes down to make a party tic with every combination of classes. A class could have just enough mitigation and heal to sustain itself while dishing out tons of damage thus making every other class useless. And you can't give every class the same high dps, mitigation, self heal etc. It would make teamplay non-existent. Just 5 guys merrily run around in a dungeon destroying everything.
No skill involved and if you ask me boring.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
While I agree that GWFs being able to have near the same tankyness as a GF and deal much more damage is crazy, nothing out tanks a correctly built and played GF.
My GF is set up to have Knight's Valor on as much as possible, able to easily tank Castle Never like it's a joke.
The only thing that matters is: can I bring a gwf to do your job while keeping mobs CCed e dishing out 4 times your damage?
People knows they can, and so they do. (maybe not in CN but the concept remain the same)
I was yesterday in fh a few times (to get my t2 boots! Which I did not get ) and those circumstances were very similar to one of my runs. One of the gwf (gs 10.8) disconnected earlier in the dungeon but we went on with only 4 guys, 2 gwf, gf and a cw. We got to the final boss where the others got killed me and the gf but the boss was around 75% health. I solo'd the boss from there on out while the gf ran around being chased by hundreds of mobs. It was there where I understood why the gwf has to be like it is. When all hope fails the gwf pulls through with the help of his friends. For if it were not for the cw we would have been... If it were not for the gf we could not have finished the last boss in that situation.
Why ask for a nerf? If you ask me PvE wise it is nice to have a back up plan, but I will agree on some nerf PvP wise and NOT PvE.
Well all I can take from this, is the GWF is too powerful! Your party should have wiped! The GWF shouldn't be able to solo the dungeon, especially if the GF cannot... The survivability of the GWF is to high making the GF obsolete this story speaks volumes.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Whether one interprets that as a nerf or fix does not matter. Eroding or tweaking - or however you want to phrase it - the benefits of Life Steal on a CW/GWF does not make the GF better. About the only class that will indirectly benefit from that is a DC. Changing it does not help the GF and is some cases will even hurt the GF as many GFs have begun experimenting with Life Steal as a means of trying to address their lack of survivability. I myself will begin looking in to it, having already purchased a companion that provides Life Steal.
Giving the GF a larger HP pool by class default or providing the GF with a feat that ramps up damage resistance, that is how you address the GF. Not by revising Life Steal. The GF remaining the same paper-clad warrior while GWFs and CWs lose their own survivability benefits no one.
The GF needs work, that's just about every single reply in this thread agrees on. I have not suggested a nerf nerf, as it is indeed a fix, by capping Lifesteal to a % of max health.
eg. retains it's % but capped at a maximum of a fixed percentage of your max health each time it procs, which can only be affected by boons, to make them meaningful
end of CWF stacked farms, DCs and GFs rejoice, TRs still wait for class review
Now this percentage of max health can be 40%.
So instead of getting 100% full heal from Lifesteal on an encounter every few seconds with up to 3 encounters, which vastly out HPS a potion's 8500 hp and 12s CD, we now get a minimum of 8000 hp (40%) heal per AOE encounter with a minimum of 20k pool of HP. That is still very generous considering and rough equivalent to a healing pot every encounter used with much lesser CD.
An 8000 heal from a 10% Lifesteal stat would require one to do a minimum of 80,000 damage on a single target attack. No unbuffed single hit should hit that high, even GWF's IBS. Since Lifesteal % remains unchanged, there is NO nerf, just a fix to an overperformance when hitting multiple targets.
Of course my suggestion will not even affect those well geared and know how to avoid taking damage to remain at full health with Lifesteal, but it will reduce tankiness somewhat and the ability to stand in red areas or mass aggro and take massive damage and recover instantly. Thus removing idiot proof gameplay that no longer challenges a DPS class to require a DC or GF.
The fact remains still, the GF has no way of self sustaining himself like the GWF does. Until a GF can do damage and heal without being prone he will be obsolete.
If Enforced Threat or Enhanced mark passive gave a significant life steal bonus they would be better off. The GF could self fill some of his hp pool every couple seconds and he would also build more threat. This would be fine as nobody would use this in pvp, not i anyway...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You should have titled your thread "This is what I don't understand about GF".
The mechanism of gwf is to take damage, dynamic tanking sort of. If for some reason (lag, chain-flying in the air, whatever, he stops delivering damage, he dies. Your mechanism is more about resisting the damage. What is not normal is that you cannot stand the damage and have to run around. That is the un-understandable part. Most GFs complain they cannot keep aggro, it's rare to meet one who says he will die if he takes the aggro.
Well, the GWF was designed with a "berserk" attitude in mind, the more damage it takes, the more "enraged" (unstoppable) he becomes. And it pretty much excels at that, since in a proper melee he can keep unstoppable up for 70% of the time... that makes him do a lot more damage as well.
The GF was designed as a "tanky" class, but he fails at that in several ways.
First, its AC is not that impressive compared to another class. The GF T2 armor + shield gets him +22 AC, the CW T2 armor only +7 AC. That might sound impressive (it looks like a GF is 3 times tankier than a CW), but it actually translates in some 12-13% more damage resistance difference between top heaviest and top lightest armors in NW. Now it sounds far less impressive, huh?
Second, its shield. Any other class can easily dodge multiple overlapping red areas or heavy strikes with a single skill usage, but the GF has to guard against *all* of them, and that can drop its shield within fractions of second. Guard should definitely NOT be able to drop more than a certain rate (ex. 15% per second with a base guard meter, improved by expanding the guard meter with feats and set bonuses). Ideally the GF should be able to hold its shield for 7-10 seconds unbroken regardless of damage taken (that should work only in PvE though, to avoid changing PvP balance).
Third, aggro management. It's currently somewhat better than the aforementioned shield and AC, but it still needs to be worked on.
Fourth, class tab feature. It's subpar compared to what other classes get. It's a minor debuff, not even a hard taunt. I don't even see how it can be reworked to make it on par with other classes, it needs to be scrapped entirely and swapped for something else. Perhaps an AoE shield that works by building up a GF equivalent of "determination" by guarding damage, and it can be expended to activate a shield in a small area around the GF that lasts 5-10s and absorbs 25-50% damage based on how much "determination" you had, along with some other minor effects (+AP gain, +regen or whatever). THAT would be awesome!
To actually replace Enhanced Mark, you could change one of those subpar powers (like Knee Breaker, does anyone use Knee Breaker?), with "Throw a Spear While Crying Out KHAAAAAAAAAN!" 80' ranged power that does minor damage but has an AoE taunt/mark and a minor debuff effect.
I'm just giving some random and probably unfeasible ideas here, but the actual GF design isn't working at all and requires a huge rework.
The fact remains still, the GF has no way of self sustaining himself like the GWF does. Until a GF can do damage and heal without being prone he will be obsolete.
If Enforced Threat or Enhanced mark passive gave a significant life steal bonus they would be better off. The GF could self fill some of his hp pool every couple seconds and he would also build more threat. This would be fine as nobody would use this in pvp, not i anyway...
Hi guys and our main frontman, ripyourlipsoff !
Not saying, that i invented anything, but when i first saw my GF having major troubles, i decided to "stack" a bit as much as i could as a GF on life steal. I got the artifact from Dread Ring, Eye of Lathander and since our weapon enchants are also worth nothing (triggers to long) and we had rarely good or any DC (i feel for them too) in Dungeons, i went for Lifedrinker Enchant, which is not as much as any other class can do, cause we hit very slow, but it could make a bit of anything, compared to the classes own, no existent self heal mechanism.
I don't go to Dungeons anymore with the old dwarf guy, only if friends ask me, but this is the build is use for PVP to this day, not much, but better than nothing.
But i have to agree, since our armors can give some regen, it should have more value to us and it should give us way more back in hp, than it does now, simply too slow and under fight not much of use.
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Well all I can take from this, is the GWF is too powerful! Your party should have wiped! The GWF shouldn't be able to solo the dungeon, especially if the GF cannot... The survivability of the GWF is to high making the GF obsolete this story speaks volumes.
Blind as usual eh Rip.. Ive been in a similar situation in FH. Me as a GWF on the boss, a GF keeping a ton of adds busy and the rest of the party were down. We finished it. After that I noticed Im almost out of pve pots ( I run with a full stack all the time ) and my HP stone had lost a lot of charges. And here is where you fail to see how things really work instead seeing only what you want to see. Using pots and stone of health is not what allowed my GWF to finish that boss - my very high GS is the reason. If that was some random 12-3K GWF there he would've fallen many times over ( I fell too btw so yay for Soulforged ). The class by itself doesnt guarantee super powerful performace. The fact that it has been my main since beta, the fact that I have spent real money on it and the fact that I know everything there is to know about it, that is why I managed to kill that boss. And the same things go for the GF in my party who managed the much harder imo task of keeping every bloody add away from me.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Well, the GWF was designed with a "berserk" attitude in mind, the more damage it takes, the more "enraged" (unstoppable) he becomes. And it pretty much excels at that, since in a proper melee he can keep unstoppable up for 70% of the time... that makes him do a lot more damage as well.
The GF was designed as a "tanky" class, but he fails at that in several ways.
First, its AC is not that impressive compared to another class. The GF T2 armor + shield gets him +22 AC, the CW T2 armor only +7 AC. That might sound impressive (it looks like a GF is 3 times tankier than a CW), but it actually translates in some 12-13% more damage resistance difference between top heaviest and top lightest armors in NW. Now it sounds far less impressive, huh?
Second, its shield. Any other class can easily dodge multiple overlapping red areas or heavy strikes with a single skill usage, but the GF has to guard against *all* of them, and that can drop its shield within fractions of second. Guard should definitely NOT be able to drop more than a certain rate (ex. 15% per second with a base guard meter, improved by expanding the guard meter with feats and set bonuses). Ideally the GF should be able to hold its shield for 7-10 seconds unbroken regardless of damage taken (that should work only in PvE though, to avoid changing PvP balance).
Third, aggro management. It's currently somewhat better than the aforementioned shield and AC, but it still needs to be worked on.
Fourth, class tab feature. It's subpar compared to what other classes get. It's a minor debuff, not even a hard taunt. I don't even see how it can be reworked to make it on par with other classes, it needs to be scrapped entirely and swapped for something else. Perhaps an AoE shield that works by building up a GF equivalent of "determination" by guarding damage, and it can be expended to activate a shield in a small area around the GF that lasts 5-10s and absorbs 25-50% damage based on how much "determination" you had, along with some other minor effects (+AP gain, +regen or whatever). THAT would be awesome!
To actually replace Enhanced Mark, you could change one of those subpar powers (like Knee Breaker, does anyone use Knee Breaker?), with "Throw a Spear While Crying Out KHAAAAAAAAAN!" 80' ranged power that does minor damage but has an AoE taunt/mark and a minor debuff effect.
I'm just giving some random and probably unfeasible ideas here, but the actual GF design isn't working at all and requires a huge rework.
Id love to have instant KC's effect along with the mark as my TAB. Agreed on your other points
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The GF needs work, that's just about every single reply in this thread agrees on. I have not suggested a nerf nerf, as it is indeed a fix, by capping Lifesteal to a % of max health.
To elaborate in details:
Now this percentage of max health can be 40%.
So instead of getting 100% full heal from Lifesteal on an encounter every few seconds with up to 3 encounters, which vastly out HPS a potion's 8500 hp and 12s CD, we now get a minimum of 8000 hp (40%) heal per AOE encounter with a minimum of 20k pool of HP. That is still very generous considering and rough equivalent to a healing pot every encounter used with much lesser CD.
An 8000 heal from a 10% Lifesteal stat would require one to do a minimum of 80,000 damage on a single target attack. No unbuffed single hit should hit that high, even GWF's IBS. Since Lifesteal % remains unchanged, there is NO nerf, just a fix to an overperformance when hitting multiple targets.
Of course my suggestion will not even affect those well geared and know how to avoid taking damage to remain at full health with Lifesteal, but it will reduce tankiness somewhat and the ability to stand in red areas or mass aggro and take massive damage and recover instantly. Thus removing idiot proof gameplay that no longer challenges a DPS class to require a DC or GF.
Fair enough. The numbers paint a clearer picture of what you are trying to say. I was indeed reacting to the use of the word ''nerf'' in the context of these forums, which usually means ''It is stronger/better/faster than me, so render it useless''.
I was also reacting to the notion of addressing other classes when the GF is the one that needs attention. I'd hate to see a cop-out like that. Lowering the bar instead of raising the GF would be a travesty.
The GF has Fighter's Recovery which can keep him kiting every add indefinitely without a DC.
Drawback is, that needs to be built up. And while GFs gain AP fast, they don't like getting caught in mobs. I've been caught by the horde in FH. It is a chain prone to death. If you have the Golems stacked up all you need is one to catch you and you will be in trouble. In short, confronting parts of the mob to build your daily is a high risk move.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Not saying, that i invented anything, but when i first saw my GF having major troubles, i decided to "stack" a bit as much as i could as a GF on life steal. I got the artifact from Dread Ring, Eye of Lathander and since our weapon enchants are also worth nothing (triggers to long) and we had rarely good or any DC (i feel for them too) in Dungeons, i went for Lifedrinker Enchant, which is not as much as any other class can do, cause we hit very slow, but it could make a bit of anything, compared to the classes own, no existent self heal mechanism.
I don't go to Dungeons anymore with the old dwarf guy, only if friends ask me, but this is the build is use for PVP to this day, not much, but better than nothing.
But i have to agree, since our armors can give some regen, it should have more value to us and it should give us way more back in hp, than it does now, simply too slow and under fight not much of use.
You know it, I read lifesteal sucks for GF over and over. However I started thinking as you did, and decided to replace my defensive enchants with Lifesteal for test purposes along with the Black Ice Ioun augment and gearing it for crit recovery and lifesteal I have about 9% Regen / 9% Lifesteal and its a BIG difference in my hp pool replenishing...
Its hard to maintain anything close to a GWF, however it does help more so then regen until I hit about 50% hp where regen is better. So above 60% Lifesteal is awesome, below 60% Regen seems better!
As we do with ALL our stats we must mash bash gear to achieve any normalcy, I wish they would just make a gear set thats like everyone elses to help diversify our stat builds.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Blind as usual eh Rip.. Ive been in a similar situation in FH. Me as a GWF on the boss, a GF keeping a ton of adds busy and the rest of the party were down. We finished it. After that I noticed Im almost out of pve pots ( I run with a full stack all the time ) and my HP stone had lost a lot of charges. And here is where you fail to see how things really work instead seeing only what you want to see. Using pots and stone of health is not what allowed my GWF to finish that boss - my very high GS is the reason. If that was some random 12-3K GWF there he would've fallen many times over ( I fell too btw so yay for Soulforged ). The class by itself doesnt guarantee super powerful performace. The fact that it has been my main since beta, the fact that I have spent real money on it and the fact that I know everything there is to know about it, that is why I managed to kill that boss. And the same things go for the GF in my party who managed the much harder imo task of keeping every bloody add away from me.
It should be opposite! I am not blind the GF should be on the BOSS and the off tank killing adds with AOE. But in this case its wasn't a GWF should not be able to solo a BOSS... my opinion anyway.
I bet if the GF died the GWF would solo the adds and the BOSS!
EDIT: I am not saying GWf are invincible, but compared to the GF he is a Superman and the GF is Aqua man.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I was also reacting to the notion of addressing other classes when the GF is the one that needs attention. I'd hate to see a cop-out like that. Lowering the bar instead of raising the GF would be a travesty.
Yeah, that's not what I'm trying to do though. I'm addressing a stat mechanic that existed before power creep, mainly artifacts and mod2 and since left unchecked. It's just people have come to associate Lifesteal with classes because of its performance with said classes.
Comments
Second there is another reason to go conq/ DPs with the GF. Because 4 out of 5 delves someboddy is going to be fighting you over aggro you'll need more than marks to hold the mob's attention. And no matter how tanky you build you cannot eat all of it. So selective shield use, mobility, and a little extra DPS goes a long way.
Third there is a systematic problem with Paingiver and people in this game do not recognize it and hence over-estimate it's importance. Paingiver counts overdamage. That is if the mob has 5k left and you hit it for 6k you get credit for 6k damage. If it has 5k and you hit it for 30k you get credit for 30k damage. This particularilly distorts the rating of high damage AOEs. Or the practice of using IBS on a target that is low so you can get the extra action points. For the GF (and to a lesser extent the HR) who has a lot of AOEs but no high-damage attacks it means that their effective damage is ranked lower because they do not over-damage. If you finish off a mob with cleave, FLS, or ET you are not likely to get much more Paingiver points than they had HP. If they get it from potato....
This simple GF change can go a long way.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
And that is exactly how it should be. A GF is not supposed to run around 24/7 hiding behind a shield. You block the real danger, you soak the rest
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Sorry but are you saying that a high GS player is to blame for his power in combat ? So what then ? Nerf my GS ? What the heck people ? What you really need to focus on is positive changes or how the mods like to call it " constructive discussions" or whatever. Think how a weaker class can improve , dont be hatin' on a strong class and most definitely dont hate on a strong player who invested time and money into his 18K GS toon.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I'm not in favour of ''helping'' one class by nerfing others. And I am a GF.
It would be the biggest cop-out if Cryptic fiddled with other classes and aspects of the game in an attempt to ''help'' the GF.
Are you a GF? Has your GF ever been surrounded by a large number of mobs? How long did it last?
Conversely, my GWF with less defense, less deflection, fewer HP and no shield THRIVES when surrounded by a mob.
If anything, the GWF is the one that is designed to cope with a mass of adds. It has better mobility and superior survivability.
Where you perhaps one of those CWs that dropped a nice AOE over Hrimnir then shouted at the GF for losing aggro?
The two fail runs I've had in FH was when the other four classes engaged the adds. And on both occasions they blamed me. DPS > GF's aggro mechanic. If you hit the Troll it will almost certainly ignore the GF. And I know this from the other side, having both a GWF and a DC. If a Troll or Golem attacks me I ignore it, dance around and wait for it to respond to the GF's mark, which it will inevitably do, so long as I leave it alone.
Leave the ******* troll alone and it will come to me (GF). Drop your AOE all over the place and they will ignore me (GF). Quite simple, really.
It's a shame that after 9 months the GF is still useless.
This gap exists whether a player HAS or HAS NOT invested to to achieve your 18k GS. The blame is not only on the GF CLASS (not player) being left behind due to power creep, but also on the side of DPS getting overbuffed.
Some people see the word "nerf" and rationality goes out the door. My suggestion has in no way "nerf" solo survivabilty of DPS builds relying on it.
But of course, survivability is subjective, if I see being able to solo most content including single mobs of a minor HE as survivable DPS, someone else will want soloing a T2 dungeon or Epic HE as the bar.
When you see something out of whack, the best you can do is bring it back in line.
You should have titled your thread "This is what I don't understand about GF".
The mechanism of gwf is to take damage, dynamic tanking sort of. If for some reason (lag, chain-flying in the air, whatever, he stops delivering damage, he dies. Your mechanism is more about resisting the damage. What is not normal is that you cannot stand the damage and have to run around. That is the un-understandable part. Most GFs complain they cannot keep aggro, it's rare to meet one who says he will die if he takes the aggro.
Correct. In T1/T2 runs my Conq has no issues taking aggro, the inadequacy is felt when my GF has all the adds on himself and then they break his guard before you can blink.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
While I agree that GWFs being able to have near the same tankyness as a GF and deal much more damage is crazy, nothing out tanks a correctly built and played GF.
My GF is set up to have Knight's Valor on as much as possible, able to easily tank Castle Never like it's a joke.
Whether one interprets that as a nerf or fix does not matter. Eroding or tweaking - or however you want to phrase it - the benefits of Life Steal on a CW/GWF does not make the GF better. About the only class that will indirectly benefit from that is a DC. Changing it does not help the GF and is some cases will even hurt the GF as many GFs have begun experimenting with Life Steal as a means of trying to address their lack of survivability. I myself will begin looking in to it, having already purchased a companion that provides Life Steal.
Giving the GF a larger HP pool by class default or providing the GF with a feat that ramps up damage resistance, that is how you address the GF. Not by revising Life Steal. The GF remaining the same paper-clad warrior while GWFs and CWs lose their own survivability benefits no one.
I was yesterday in fh a few times (to get my t2 boots! Which I did not get
Why ask for a nerf? If you ask me PvE wise it is nice to have a back up plan, but I will agree on some nerf PvP wise and NOT PvE.
Classy Hyena: HR
Classy Mistress: GWF
As I see it, sometime you can't just buff a class to make it viable. You have to bring other classes down to make a party tic with every combination of classes. A class could have just enough mitigation and heal to sustain itself while dishing out tons of damage thus making every other class useless. And you can't give every class the same high dps, mitigation, self heal etc. It would make teamplay non-existent. Just 5 guys merrily run around in a dungeon destroying everything.
No skill involved and if you ask me boring.
The only thing that matters is: can I bring a gwf to do your job while keeping mobs CCed e dishing out 4 times your damage?
People knows they can, and so they do. (maybe not in CN but the concept remain the same)
Well all I can take from this, is the GWF is too powerful! Your party should have wiped! The GWF shouldn't be able to solo the dungeon, especially if the GF cannot... The survivability of the GWF is to high making the GF obsolete this story speaks volumes.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The GF needs work, that's just about every single reply in this thread agrees on. I have not suggested a nerf nerf, as it is indeed a fix, by capping Lifesteal to a % of max health.
To elaborate in details: Now this percentage of max health can be 40%.
So instead of getting 100% full heal from Lifesteal on an encounter every few seconds with up to 3 encounters, which vastly out HPS a potion's 8500 hp and 12s CD, we now get a minimum of 8000 hp (40%) heal per AOE encounter with a minimum of 20k pool of HP. That is still very generous considering and rough equivalent to a healing pot every encounter used with much lesser CD.
An 8000 heal from a 10% Lifesteal stat would require one to do a minimum of 80,000 damage on a single target attack. No unbuffed single hit should hit that high, even GWF's IBS. Since Lifesteal % remains unchanged, there is NO nerf, just a fix to an overperformance when hitting multiple targets.
Of course my suggestion will not even affect those well geared and know how to avoid taking damage to remain at full health with Lifesteal, but it will reduce tankiness somewhat and the ability to stand in red areas or mass aggro and take massive damage and recover instantly. Thus removing idiot proof gameplay that no longer challenges a DPS class to require a DC or GF.
If Enforced Threat or Enhanced mark passive gave a significant life steal bonus they would be better off. The GF could self fill some of his hp pool every couple seconds and he would also build more threat. This would be fine as nobody would use this in pvp, not i anyway...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Well, the GWF was designed with a "berserk" attitude in mind, the more damage it takes, the more "enraged" (unstoppable) he becomes. And it pretty much excels at that, since in a proper melee he can keep unstoppable up for 70% of the time... that makes him do a lot more damage as well.
The GF was designed as a "tanky" class, but he fails at that in several ways.
First, its AC is not that impressive compared to another class. The GF T2 armor + shield gets him +22 AC, the CW T2 armor only +7 AC. That might sound impressive (it looks like a GF is 3 times tankier than a CW), but it actually translates in some 12-13% more damage resistance difference between top heaviest and top lightest armors in NW. Now it sounds far less impressive, huh?
Second, its shield. Any other class can easily dodge multiple overlapping red areas or heavy strikes with a single skill usage, but the GF has to guard against *all* of them, and that can drop its shield within fractions of second. Guard should definitely NOT be able to drop more than a certain rate (ex. 15% per second with a base guard meter, improved by expanding the guard meter with feats and set bonuses). Ideally the GF should be able to hold its shield for 7-10 seconds unbroken regardless of damage taken (that should work only in PvE though, to avoid changing PvP balance).
Third, aggro management. It's currently somewhat better than the aforementioned shield and AC, but it still needs to be worked on.
Fourth, class tab feature. It's subpar compared to what other classes get. It's a minor debuff, not even a hard taunt. I don't even see how it can be reworked to make it on par with other classes, it needs to be scrapped entirely and swapped for something else. Perhaps an AoE shield that works by building up a GF equivalent of "determination" by guarding damage, and it can be expended to activate a shield in a small area around the GF that lasts 5-10s and absorbs 25-50% damage based on how much "determination" you had, along with some other minor effects (+AP gain, +regen or whatever). THAT would be awesome!
To actually replace Enhanced Mark, you could change one of those subpar powers (like Knee Breaker, does anyone use Knee Breaker?), with "Throw a Spear While Crying Out KHAAAAAAAAAN!" 80' ranged power that does minor damage but has an AoE taunt/mark and a minor debuff effect.
I'm just giving some random and probably unfeasible ideas here, but the actual GF design isn't working at all and requires a huge rework.
Hi guys and our main frontman, ripyourlipsoff
Not saying, that i invented anything, but when i first saw my GF having major troubles, i decided to "stack" a bit as much as i could as a GF on life steal. I got the artifact from Dread Ring, Eye of Lathander and since our weapon enchants are also worth nothing (triggers to long) and we had rarely good or any DC (i feel for them too) in Dungeons, i went for Lifedrinker Enchant, which is not as much as any other class can do, cause we hit very slow, but it could make a bit of anything, compared to the classes own, no existent self heal mechanism.
I don't go to Dungeons anymore with the old dwarf guy, only if friends ask me, but this is the build is use for PVP to this day, not much, but better than nothing.
But i have to agree, since our armors can give some regen, it should have more value to us and it should give us way more back in hp, than it does now, simply too slow and under fight not much of use.
Robert E. Lee
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Winston Churchill
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Blind as usual eh Rip.. Ive been in a similar situation in FH. Me as a GWF on the boss, a GF keeping a ton of adds busy and the rest of the party were down. We finished it. After that I noticed Im almost out of pve pots ( I run with a full stack all the time ) and my HP stone had lost a lot of charges. And here is where you fail to see how things really work instead seeing only what you want to see. Using pots and stone of health is not what allowed my GWF to finish that boss - my very high GS is the reason. If that was some random 12-3K GWF there he would've fallen many times over ( I fell too btw so yay for Soulforged ). The class by itself doesnt guarantee super powerful performace. The fact that it has been my main since beta, the fact that I have spent real money on it and the fact that I know everything there is to know about it, that is why I managed to kill that boss. And the same things go for the GF in my party who managed the much harder imo task of keeping every bloody add away from me.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Id love to have instant KC's effect along with the mark as my TAB. Agreed on your other points
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Fair enough. The numbers paint a clearer picture of what you are trying to say. I was indeed reacting to the use of the word ''nerf'' in the context of these forums, which usually means ''It is stronger/better/faster than me, so render it useless''.
I was also reacting to the notion of addressing other classes when the GF is the one that needs attention. I'd hate to see a cop-out like that. Lowering the bar instead of raising the GF would be a travesty.
Drawback is, that needs to be built up. And while GFs gain AP fast, they don't like getting caught in mobs. I've been caught by the horde in FH. It is a chain prone to death. If you have the Golems stacked up all you need is one to catch you and you will be in trouble. In short, confronting parts of the mob to build your daily is a high risk move.
You know it, I read lifesteal sucks for GF over and over. However I started thinking as you did, and decided to replace my defensive enchants with Lifesteal for test purposes along with the Black Ice Ioun augment and gearing it for crit recovery and lifesteal I have about 9% Regen / 9% Lifesteal and its a BIG difference in my hp pool replenishing...
Its hard to maintain anything close to a GWF, however it does help more so then regen until I hit about 50% hp where regen is better. So above 60% Lifesteal is awesome, below 60% Regen seems better!
As we do with ALL our stats we must mash bash gear to achieve any normalcy, I wish they would just make a gear set thats like everyone elses to help diversify our stat builds.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
It should be opposite! I am not blind the GF should be on the BOSS and the off tank killing adds with AOE. But in this case its wasn't a GWF should not be able to solo a BOSS... my opinion anyway.
I bet if the GF died the GWF would solo the adds and the BOSS!
EDIT: I am not saying GWf are invincible, but compared to the GF he is a Superman and the GF is Aqua man.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Only as long as he is not cced, cced GF in FR gets no healing. If it was Damage taken converted to healing then yes he would be fantastic.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!