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This is what I don't understand about GWF
oicidraz
Member Posts: 627 Arc User
I'm a GF 13.5K and the other day I went to FH with 3 GWF (from 10.8K to 15.5K) and 1 CW, all the GWFs were able to Tank more than me and obviously, DPS a lot more than me, I mean, sometimes I had to stop attacking and run in circles to don't get aggro and die (Like when a GWF is chasing you in Unsto when your guard is broken or when you don't have dodges left and your encounters are in CD) while the GWF was grouping and grouping mobs of enemies and surviving due to Life Steal and Unsto, it made me feel bad, I mean, I understand the DPS, but why a DPS Build in a DPS Class can survive much better than a Tanky Build in a Tanky Class... For me there's no logic, NO LOGIC!, it's like if one guy create a GWF hoping to be the best DPS and it result that the guardian Class is the King of DPS!.
The DPSiest GWF can Tank better than the Tankiest GF, and even then being Tanky in this game doesn't matter much, so what do we have?.
The DPSiest GWF can Tank better than the Tankiest GF, and even then being Tanky in this game doesn't matter much, so what do we have?.
Post edited by oicidraz on
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(BTW I play a GF)
Just run a pure, balls-to-the-wall offensive GF. They can actually be CRAZY fun and do all kinds of Damage while keeping a really NICE Defense up.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Also, the issues why the 2 'prime' AoE classes (CW and GWF) are more tanky than GFs:
- They can dodge/sprint, potentially moving out of heavy hits. A GF is doomed to stand there and watch his block be broken.
- They deal more damage than you, so they get more mileage out of 'Lifesteal', giving them an easier self-sustain.
- CWs usually use Steal Time with High Vizier gear to stack defense on themselves, plus they have control components in pretty much every high Damage ability
- GWFs have Unstoppable, so they eat 1 or 2 Red circles, mash Tab, and become immune against controls and recieve a good chunk of Damage Reduction. Rinse, Repeat.
sorry, WHAT? CWs are more tanky than GF? Have you ever played CW?
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
but for all this to work you must reframe how dungeons were made to give more useful for other classes. GWF regarding this game could change the name to "god weapon fighter." nobody liked, no one is enjoying it and nobody liked if things continue like this! many things could be done, but what really matters is inventing nonsense to spend ingame, sad, because soon there will be others. gets the hint.
Hmm... "taking damage now builds your guard meter" - it'd provide an interesting synergy regarding when to block or when not to block.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
it way outperforms regen
eg. retains it's % but capped at a maximum of a fixed percentage of your max health each time it procs, which can only be affected by boons, to make them meaningful
end of CWF stacked farms, DCs and GFs rejoice, TRs still wait for class review
I like lifesteal, I think of my GWF as a vampire.
Make weaker Classes MORE fun and exciting rather than stronger Classes LESS.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
It seems to me that there's a big misconception about a GF's role in this game, probably based on the way tanky classes are played in other games. The perception is that being the tank means taking the most damage while still dealing plenty. In this game, that's the GWF. GFs are set up to be the distraction. They are the ones that scream "HEY, UGLY, COME GET ME!" while running around with their defenses up. They need to leave the boss alone, it's going to go where it wants to anyway. Get all the agro you can from everything else and run it around as long as possible. That gives everyone else the time needed to bring down the boss. 4 mediocre players can bring down a boss if they're with a great GF that knows what they're doing. Everybody plays their role and everybody wins. When the GF decides to run in and punch the big baddie in the face, CWs and DCs are left running for their lives from 50 adds and there's often lots of dying involved. I saw this a bunch this weekend with the CTA. Nearly every time I was in a group with a well geared level 60 GF, they were going for the boss, and whether I was on my GWF, CW, DC, or HR, I had to abandon a large part of my role to either go after adds or just run for my life.
Oh but it is, you will see much more GWFs go down waiting for pots to cooldown with their run and gun playstyle, or at least forced to use pots or some kind of healing from DCs. Unstoppable doesn't work nearly as well wihout the healing from lifesteal while its active to keep GWFs alive during crazy add fest boss fights.
1º- I wasn't talking about the boss fight, I know well what I have to do, I was complaining about the GWFs were puting together like 3 group of mobs and destroying them while their HP was never below 35-40% while I'm struggling with 1-2 groups, and sometimes I got my HP at 10% and had to stop attacking, but the 3 GWFs (even the 10.8K) were doing it great. If our only job in the entire game is not to Tank, but to kite adds in the bosses (and in the couple of dungeons that ppl accept us) and be extremely excluded in the "High End" dungeons they should put an advice...
2º- I share the opinion that LS is at least part of the reason that a GF (and partially DC) are excluded, it's simple, if you die without them then you would search for a GF/DC in your party, it's as simple as that, now, I also share the view that GWF should do 50% or maybe 100% more than us, but they usually do 200-400% more... I mean, at least we are supposed to be fighters (even if we are a support class we should do more than a DC).
That's pretty much it,
So... after all this time... we've learned to survive ... without them...
If they cannot... or will not do their job...
Then there's no use for them in any party....
That's a stinging truth for sure...
That's why high GS GFs no longer bother to tank and simply maximise their DPS for efficiency. Who needs them when players can already dps down adds so fast and outheal the damage they can take?
So the blame goes both ways.
Well, the issue is, the "kite" role can be easily replaced by another GWF.
Ebony (Whisperknife)
No... the truth is, they've never really been able to do this that well.
I've been playing this game for almost a year now and that problem has always been there. Me, as a CW running for my life in a crowd of mobs while the GF runs out and ignored their primary responsibillty as a protector.
The easy remedy was a GWF. At least togather we could have a prone/stun fest if there wasn't going to be any agro control in the first place.
I've been pushing lately for greater Agro control for GFs... but it won't do a **** bit of good if I continue to see what I've been doing since the beginning of this game.
Or HR, I kite pretty good with my HR, and CW are very good at it if they are able to survive, DCs can do it too but I haven't see 1 able to truly gather all the mobs and let all the others 100% free of mobs... so the Kite can be done by a lot of classes that are usefull in the entire Dungeon, why bring a GF then
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Bad idea. It is the core of some builds that let you do tougher end game stuff without being it a total pain (constantly having to avoid red areas and drinking potions is not fun).
Also, nerfing it will not make the GF survive more. It's the GF class that needs buffs.
That would not solve anything because it'd just make all classes survive more and leave the GF where it currenlty is (relative to the other classes). Some of the GF's feats should be buffed... Thoughness giving more HP, Armor Specialization having a larger effect (both for the GF only... not other classes). Plate Agility giving 10% more deflect, Shield Defence giving +10 AC, etc.
Also it would be nice to allow GFs access to high regeneration rings like the TRs and HRs have. Wearing two ring with 400+ regeneration would help.
I could say the same for inexperienced CWs and HRs, who start off by dispersing the adds everywhere, Ice Storm or Arcane Singularity away from the party. Or flat out just greedy for 1st strike across multiple mobs for the sake of paingiver. During boss fights, where other players should focus on boss, many inexperienced players will tend to focus on adds which can get increasingly hard for a GF to control if teammates pull them away. Good teamplay with a good GF should mostly just have the GF on adds until the boss is downed in most cases to not have problems.
Of course there are exceptions where the GF would need a DC's heal or a DPS to kill off adds as they come, especially those than can range jump the GF doing large damage, the drow warriors, barbarians in IWD, skeletons in CN etc.
A GF is not a personal tank but a party tank, it helps if the rest of the team's mindset is party oriented. If someone simply wants to run and burn through multiple mobs, then undoubtedly the GWF is ideal in terms of tankiness and DPS to shoulder the weight off the party.
Likewise inexperienced players with every class exists no matter the timeframe in every game. But if the GWF should lose that ability (or even CWs) then a well played GF can easily come into play as long as the party don't bite off more than the they can chew. People's mindset is that only the GF or DC is the one that needs to think about the party, while the rest just think about Paingiver.
We are talking about DPS here right? Not tanks? You want to solo addfests with how Lifesteal heals with AOEs? Or have GFs and DCs be useful in that scenario?
I get it though, even myself playing a DPS wants to be nigh unkillable, but it's just wrong.
GF tanking/kiting is not actually required during the FH final boss fight.
Two or more mid to high geared CW's (or perhaps only one very high GS CW) can kill all the adds.
Most players never try to kill all the adds, but CW can do it by doing all AoE, especially oppressive force.
I agree that GF could use some buffs .... however buffing GF is unlikely to make them clear dungeons faster than a dps class.
Part of the solution is buffing GF, and other part of the solution is nerf.
Nerfing lifesteal seems like a reasonable place to start nerfing.
I am sure someone will point out that oppressive force has no target limit and that is why it heals too much.
I agree that oppressive force is overpowered, but not because it heals too much, but because it's does too much damage due to unlimited targets. Even if oppressive force was nerfed to a 5 target limit, CW's with very high life steal can still self-heal very well by going all AoE (chill strike on tab + steal time + sudden storm + shard).
One more thing ....
In my opinion, soulforged is very overpowered now. Giving an extra life to dps classes is possibly the biggest reason why tanks are less needed. Realistically, I don't expect soulforged to be changed back to it's previous state. Just pointing out that cryptic is giving out huge buffs and new powers and the result is dps classes are now able to complete most of the content, without a traditional tank or healer. If we don't start nerfing somewhere, then the result will be parties with only dps classes, and classes which can buff/debuff to increase dps of dps classes.