A few useful fixes for mod 3 stuff as to be expected. In general most of these are small issues; none of the glarring problems introduced to pvp by mod3 are being addressed.
A few useful fixes for mod 3 stuff as to be expected. In general most of these are small issues; none of the glarring problems introduced to pvp by mod3 are being addressed.
Can you please be more specific? "Glaring problems" isn't much to work from and often what a glaring problem to one person is not as much of a concern to another. Clearly stating issues helps give us the most accurate gauge of an issue's severity and allows us to track them down easier if we arent already working on a solution.
I don't mean to specifically call you out, many comments are like this. But more clear information helps us out, which in turn can get issues fixed more quickly.
1. when you go offline before you lose the match, it is not counted as a lose for you and you get no penalty
2. when after wining the match, before you leave the zone, the enemy points tick to 1000 both sides get a lose counted
3. GG pvp Achivmente kill 1000 npcs: maybe no bug, but killing 1000 npcs in ggpvp where you normally kill zero, since you either take the point before you can kill any of the or you fight against players so you dont have time to kill them
4. you should think of a alternative conditions how double/triple kills are counted or different achievements, since def GF, DC and some other defensive builds have no real chance to get them, when they dont get 3 enemys that die for them
1. when you go offline before you lose the match, it is not counted as a lose for you and you get no penalty
2. when after wining the match, before you leave the zone, the enemy points tick to 1000 both sides get a lose counted
3. GG pvp Achivmente kill 1000 npcs: maybe no bug, but killing 1000 npcs in ggpvp where you normally kill zero, since you either take the point before you can kill any of the or you fight against players so you dont have time to kill them
4. you should think of a alternative conditions how double/triple kills are counted or different achievements, since def GF, DC and some other defensive builds have no real chance to get them, when they dont get 3 enemys that die for them
Thanks for the clarification.
1. I believe this was already fixed? I'll double check.
2. I believe there was a related fix to this, I'll double check. Thats a pretty large edge case.
3. That text could certainly be more clear, there are indeed NPCs in the GG Domination however.
4. This will probably not change at this time.
Can you please be more specific? "Glaring problems" isn't much to work from and often what a glaring problem to one person is not as much of a concern to another. Clearly stating issues helps give us the most accurate gauge of an issue's severity and allows us to track them down easier if we arent already working on a solution.
I don't mean to specifically call you out, many comments are like this. But more clear information helps us out, which in turn can get issues fixed more quickly.
Thanks!
Oh wow I was not expecting a Dev reply. I would love to elaborate on some of the issues that seems to be adversley affecting pvp, in my view, as a whole and not just directed at one single class or play style. I was just trying to push across the point that fixes to Half-elf ear's clipping with long hair or fixing Tiefling tail animations seems pretty unimportant compared to other issues.
1-Armor Penetration still does not affect any DOT abilities. This affects all classes, some more than others, but it's been an issues for ages and it seems like it would be a priority to fix something that's a global issue. This has been an issue a since long before mod 3.
2-Supposively there's and ELO system for the pvp matchmaking ques but if there is it seems to be really screwed up or doesn't even work. Currently there's no parity in the pvp matches for group make up, GS or premades. You're just as likely to end up with a 5 person premade where everybody has 15k+ GS against a similar premade or against a group of 5 random 10k GS people. If the ELO system worked properly it should increase the enjoyment of PVP for everybody from the new beginners to the casual mid level player to the hardcore BIS pvpers.
3-Mod 3 seems to have added more imbalance between classes after they been brought more into line with eachother thanks to the PVP patch. I know things don't always turn out as planned but I would think that some tweaks, to help realine things untill a more indepth study can be done to bring about better long term solutions, would be something that could benefit a large portion of the player base. I'm under the impression that a class balance patch was the next major addition after mod 3, yet I see almost no public info about this and mod4 is already being promoted
3.A-GF's are in a seriously sorry state at the moment in PVP, they're almost completely usless on the majority of teams and are essentially becoming a hinderance that have to be carried. I think the fact that they're terrible in PVE highlights this deficiency even more. The class is seriously dieing and it's a shame since all the class are unique and should have something viable to contribute to any team.
3.B-GWF's got their dmg/survivability ratio nerfed in mod 3 for sentinel builds do to the changed to student of the sword and deep gash yet with the changes implemented to the Destro tree GWF's got even better. Sure they can't go 1 v 3 in the same manner anymore but 20k+ takedown crits and 30k+ indomitable battle strike crits is a bit insane. The fact is since they're crushing people with a single rotation now they don't need the survivability that they previously did. With minimal support they're clearing half a team with ease.
3.C-The reduction in dmg to Socking Execution was sure nice so that people don't have to worry about insta dying anytime they're at 60% HP or less. This also has helped make more defensive armor enchants more viable. This is reflected in the fact that the price of barkshields has gone through the roof while soulforged prices have come down dramatically. Even so, TR's got even better post mod3. Path of Blades can now crit which has increased it's dmg output unless you can avoid the majority of the dmg during it's duration, and with the power rework they've simply substituted that blad fan daily (don't know the actual name) for SE and they simply deal 75% dmg of pre mod 3 SE to multiple targets, often 3+ targets. I've argued in the past that TR's have a really OP mechanic for PVP but at the same time I understand the class is not going to completely redisgned either which means they're dmg needs to be brought back into line based on the survivability or something like "TR's can't cap while invis" needs to be implemented.
3.D-HR's seem to have been over nerfed. Granted they were seriously OP pre mod 3 but now their dmg output is really really low unless they go all class cannon like. At least they can build to be super tanky and have a lot of disables but this just makes them feel like a worse version of a CW or a slightly more useful GF.
3.E-The 8s delay from leaving combat until you can mount is severly affecting any class that needs to rotate a lot. Primarily DC's and CW's. It's incredibly easy to just hit somebody with an auto attack if you see them leaving the node, by the time the 8s timer wears off you're practically at the next node and if you get hit by a constricting shot or choked by a CW or something you essentially have to spend all your time running from one node to another. This has caused the GWF's to become even farther out of line with the rest of the classes because not only do they serve as point holders but now they're also by far the best rotaters also due to their massive burst dmg output and their ability to instantly sprint half way across the map. I'm not saying it should be completely removed because my assumption is that this was implimented to slow down people rotations and therefore reduce the time of pvp matched between well balanced groups. I'm in agreement that 2 hour pvp domination matches are excessive but at least it would seem like a shorter timer would be in order so as not to kill off the effectivness of some classes.
3.*** Some of the achievments in the PVP campain are completely unfair to certain classes. For example you're required to accumulated double and triple kills, this is on the verge of impossible for a cleric due to the current meta. Even with a meta, or a paragorn path that allowed for more offensive clerics it would still be very hard to score triple kills due to the powers we have based on their dmg, if they're aoe and how easy they are to target. It seems that maybe some of the pvp achievments should have been class specific. I think another good example is the kill NPC's in GG, currenly you need 1000 and even with an amazing team where you don't cap points 2 or 4 and pretty much just use them to farm the NPC's you can only achieve about 50 NPC kills and this isn't viable for the majority of matches. It seems like something along the lines of 500 NPC kills may be more in line.
3.G-The leader board was a great idea because ladder systems always create competitivness which adds to the fun in the game for the majority of us. The problem is that it seems to be incrediably biased in how it scores. It doesn't really seem to care if you win or lose and primarily focuses on points capped/defended and kill/death. It also seems like it takes into account ranking and premade vs pug. In theory a lot of this makes sense but it's currently making it very skewed towards certain classes. I'd think that focusing on kill/death over victory/defeat is a poor idea since not all classes are killing machines and just because you're not getting last hit kills doesn't mean a player is being innefectual. Of course I understand that focusing solely on win/loss for example also inflates players ranking who simply get carried and penalizes good players for playing with bad players. Maybe I haven't completely understood the ranking system yet but if there was more transparancy about it this would probably help the community understand it and provide better feedback for adressing issues. It just seems absurd that you make a 5 man premade, get in que, ELO system puts you against 5 randoms who are weaker than you guys. The 5 man premade precedes to crush the random pug team but one guy on the premade team gets carless and is killed once, finishes with a 0-1-X score and a victory yet drops 20 pages in the rankings...
3.H- Some of the rewards are also rather biased towards certain classes such as the boon that gives you 5 glory for each kill. How does that help classes that get almost no kills? It's great if your a GWF or TR getting 15 kills a match or something. It seems like it would be more fair if it counted for kills+asists even if the amount of bonus glory was reduced.
3.I- The max server size seems to small for IWD to bring about the massive pvp scenarios that it was supposed to. Normally you don't seem to get more than half of a servers population engaged in open world PVP at one time and your lucky if there's even that many. Normally there's at least 10-20 players who are just questing etc. Even if you want to join and a server with your guild to have some fun often times you can't because there aren't enough players of the opposing faction or even if another guild wants to joint the same server to fight against you often times they can't get enough players in because the server size is to small.
4-Pre mod3 you could reamain in the pvp arena after a match was completed by simply escapping out of the final results window "x". This is no longer doable and is a real pity since for many people that was the best part of pvp, the ability to spend time after battling, testing and improving your skill or duling against friends or members of other guilds. I don't see that this affected the game play or experience in any way at all, even if it was probably unintended. I therefore see no reason that it was removed when it was such a great feature for so many players
Anyways these were the ideas I had floating on the top of my head atm. I'm sure there are other issues that I've noticed/ discuess with players but they'll have to wait. I understand often times there is no perfect solution and I'm sure you guys try to stay away from knee jerk reactions to please the player base since that usually leads to bad results or severe imbalance. I do believe though that most of my points are pretty objective and are designed to make the pvp experience more enjoyable for everybody, regardless of class, skill or gear.
I hope this helps and I'd love to read any feedback provided or continue the discussion
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Thanks for the clarification.
3. That text could certainly be more clear, there are indeed NPCs in the GG Domination however.
While there are indeed NPCs in GG domination, either this is meant to be the hardest to achieve or the number is much too high. I am going to be working on that long after I complete the rest of the GG tasks.
First off, its important to understand that the person working on Tiefling tail animations or haircuts is not the same person who will adjust basically anything on class powers or PvP balance. An animator or character artist will rarely if ever do anything design related, they are all different skillsets, talents and procedures on how to get them into the game.
Also, many of these issues are not simple and require time, resources, testing and finally more time and testing.
Armor Penetration - Yea, this isn't ideal and we aren't a fan either. However, it takes a good amount of work to not only fix everything, but then bring down the current damage levels to compensate for this. ArPen isn't worthless in most cases and powers deal about the damage we want them to. It takes a long time to make a new class, it also takes a long time to make these sorts of sweeping changes.
PvP Elo - There is. GS is not a factor on purpose, as gear will help you do better and thusly get a better skill rating. Its also not the end all of winning a match, point control is much more important. Depending on the time of the day, there may not be enough people in the queue to get a good rating match with. We are monitoring this and are considering adjusting things, but we dont want queue times to increase too much. Finally, premade vs premade: Players who do premades will win more often, giving them a better skill value, which means they are more likley to play against other premades and highly skilled (and likley geared) players.
Guardian Fighters in PvP - I don't believe they are "nearly useless in PvP" at all. They can be VERY hard to kill and can hold a point for LONG periods of time by themselves.
Hunter Rangers - We made a lot of changes in Preview and we hope they are in a better place than they were before. Split Shot and a few other powers were just too powerful to even need anything else. We are keeping an eye on things.
Class Equality - Things in a game will never be completely equal for all things for all classes. We try our best, but it can have some severe diminishing returns for its worth.
Open PvP - The Heroic Encounter has been broken until today, well see if that can lure some more PvE centric players in there. We'll see.
Post Domination Fighting - This was a bug that allowed players to grief others and cause injuries. We should support dueling in a more appropriate manner. There is another post about this as well.
I hope that helped put some light onto why things arent just always fixed as quickly as you (or myself) would like them to. There is always a tangled web of player desires vs what we have time to realistically implement for the fullest effect.
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tilinifMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
1. I believe this was already fixed? I'll double check.
2. I believe there was a related fix to this, I'll double check. Thats a pretty large edge case.
3. That text could certainly be more clear, there are indeed NPCs in the GG Domination however.
4. This will probably not change at this time.
To point out 3 more clearly:
There are only 2 kind of NPCs in GG Domination.
First there are high Hp mobs that despawn on tabing the base they are standing on. NO option if you playing on win.
Also there are TRs Bait and Switch doubles. A bug, defnetly a bug.
This forcing PvP Players to PvE in a PvP match. It forces Players to leave Controlpoint 2 and 4 to the enemy team, because the need the NPCs spwaning on that bases to kill. If they dont want to hunt TRs for doubles.
btw. that orges and golems are epic, but we dont have pots in PvP. You go down without a DC against them.
Edit: forgotten Amusud, sry about that, but killing an epic giant 1000 times without pots seems no optoin to me...
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
After playing this new patch for a few hours, I have a few comments.
1) Looks like there is still some cases which can cause Black Ice Domination to stop working. I am in instance #9 of Icewind Pass right now and BI Domination is stuck on the capture points part without the capture nodes being active, just like what happened prepatch. It is working more reliably now, but not 100% fixed.
2) The giant in motherlode is still dropping way too many BI drops and still makes everything close by disappear.
Black ice Domination:
1. when the event starts the score board still has players that arent even in zone/pvpflaged.
2. match started when there where 1 player on each side.
problems with Black ice Domination:
1. starts at random in some instance you cant enter at will or even know about, this lead to only allow those that are in the ini at the moment to take part, but not everyone wants to do pvp, which lead to an uneven matches.
2. no commitment towards the match, when on side is winning or you crush some of the enemy players, they often leave, making this a boring hunt for the last reaming enemys.
solution: make Black Ice Domination start at fixed times and only start when X players of both sides enter an starting area (like those the grp is waiting for you),
this would get ppl in the zone for the event and ensure that the event only starts when there are ppl that want to take part and not only doing the pvp dailys and leaving as soon as the event starts
add a leaver penalty for everyone that is in the starting area or enters after the event has started
maybe add a queue that teleports you in zones to even the numbers
Open PvP - The Heroic Encounter has been broken until today, well see if that can lure some more PvE centric players in there. We'll see.
I doubt that a PvE centric player will do it more than once. A PvP experience is not what such a player is looking for, and Open World PvP is only going to make him/her less likely to consider the content. You could up the rewards by several thousand percent, add some unique OP PvE rewards to the area and still not get PvE centric players to look at the content. It is simply not the kind of experience they are looking for. At best they'll simply ignore the content, at worst they'll be as obnoxious as they possibly can towards those who enjoy PvP.
If you expect anything will ever get these players to willingly participate in PvP, you're going to be sorely disappointed.
It's not a matter of "They would like it if only they tried it", it's a matter of not desiring that kind of content in this kind of game. They are rarely here for any kind of competetive play, but rather to hang out with friends and be social while advancing their characters.
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited May 2014
Hunter Rangers - We made a lot of changes in Preview and we hope they are in a better place than they were before. Split Shot and a few other powers were just too powerful to even need anything else. We are keeping an eye on things.
They're not.
Even before the nerfs my HR was easily the weakest character in my stable (I play all classes). It should go without saying that nerfs did not improve the situation any. The class is lacking in burst damage and meaningful controls (Grasping Roots is useless). Split Shot is a canard; it's far too slow.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
You do't think split shot was to powerful before? Come on, you could one shot most minion groups with it, it's a single at will, it shouldn't do so much damage.
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
You do't think split shot was to powerful before? Come on, you could one shot most minion groups with it, it's a single at will, it shouldn't do so much damage.
You can one-shot most minion groups with a lot of things. No one cares because it's yard trash.
Nor is the fact that it's an At-Will particularly relevant. My CW's Shard is an Encounter power but everything's dead after the alpha strike and the power will be recharged by the time I reach the next spawn. An HR can get off one solid volley with Split Shot; after that if you stand still long enough to charge it you'll be beaten into the ground.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
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4. you should think of a alternative conditions how double/triple kills are counted or different achievements, since def GF, DC and some other defensive builds have no real chance to get them, when they dont get 3 enemys that die for them
...
4. This will probably not change at this time.
Here I have big questions, why is not going to change soon something that it obviously unfair?, they do care of DC and GF?, I could just PvP with my HR and get 20+ Kills per match, but I want to play with my GF too... I don't understand how these objectives can come to air and when the obvious happens just say "eh... we are not going to change this soon"... Then why did you put those requirements in the first place!!!... go to the PvP is a struggle with my GF...
...
3.A-GF's are in a seriously sorry state at the moment in PVP, they're almost completely usless on the majority of teams and are essentially becoming a hinderance that have to be carried. I think the fact that they're terrible in PVE highlights this deficiency even more. The class is seriously dieing and it's a shame since all the class are unique and should have something viable to contribute to any team.
... Guardian Fighters in PvP - I don't believe they are "nearly useless in PvP" at all. They can be VERY hard to kill and can hold a point for LONG periods of time by themselves.
Here I kinda agree, GF are not COMPLETELY USELESS, but we are the most useless class in PvP and in PvE with no doubt, also a lot of classes can hold point for LONG periods of time and kill you in the procces (HR, TR, etc...), I wonder if there's at least 1 person on the developers team that is aware of the current state of the GF...
DCs have been complaining that they are so useless in PVP. The most useless toon in PVP.
What do you have to say to those DCs?
I do not agree with that, they seem more killeable now but their buffs/healings (HG, AS, etc...) can change the course of PvP, they are by far more useful than a GF...
I would say some DCs need to work on their strategy, because they are far from useless. Healing circles on a node can make a crapload of difference for a team even with healing depression. It's still more than the opponent gets. That chain CC thingy they have lines up targets for the rest to kill. 've also seen DCs hold nodes against TRs for quite some time. Obviously they'll lose eventually, but that's not the point. If you PvP to get kills you're playing the wrong class. If you PvP as a cleric should, aka be the foundation for your team, you're a great asset. People should stop wanting to be something they are not and play to their own strengths instead of wanting someone else's. Note that this goes for all classes and not just DCs.
But as op stated why are their requirements for DC to get kills that is unlikely to change? Game developers are forcing Players to play that class badly to get kills to advance their favorite character. Don't blame the players for following the game mechanics put in place by the devs.
But as op stated why are their requirements for DC to get kills that is unlikely to change? Game developers are forcing Players to play that class badly to get kills to advance their favorite character. Don't blame the players for following the game mechanics put in place by the devs.
I am thinking there are emergent properties from this community in general and then there is what the devs envision. They are not the same. We want x, as a group. They created the conditions for us to want that. Literally they created those conditions in the form of this game. I think there is a major disconnect in what the community wants out of this game and what the devs want this game to be. That is bad news for them more than anyone. There is a demand. Supply it. Simple *** economics.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
As I usually do I get to see the Dev Tracker and I find these answers from a GM ...
There's no need to rip bits out of a Developer's post and turn it into it's own thread in an entirely different forum. Please keep discussions in their respective threads. Thread merged. Thanks!
[*]Hunter Rangers - We made a lot of changes in Preview and we hope they are in a better place than they were before. Split Shot and a few other powers were just too powerful to even need anything else. We are keeping an eye on things.
It sadly hasn't helped much. My HR is undergeared still, granted, but even undergeared my other classes(I've got all six at 60) except for GF(Which is so unfun to play I don't use him at all) all felt like the could at least do something. My GWF wasn't topping Paingiver charts but had at least some survivabilty. My TR... Hit 60 and stopped being undergeared before all the ridiculous nerfs the class has gotten because of PvP crying, so I can't speak to an undergeared TR today(Probably ugly although the power change will have helped, kudos). My CW could still nuke and control. My DC could heal. My HR... Stands in the back and uses Split Shot and Rain of Arrows because that's his only useful damage and he can't survive in close quarters to actually use his Combat tree feats. Maybe I'm just not 'getting' the class, but even with a higher GS and better stat spread than my previous classes, I can't stay up long enough to try to even get anywhere with it. No damage, no survival capabilities(Sure, more dodges, but until you can survive long enough to get those dodges down due to extremely short invuln period and not actually getting out of red, doesn't help).
I feel like this has a lot to do with the sheer number of incredibly horribly bad HRs out there. They still stick to SS spam because it's still their best bet. But again, maybe I'm just not getting it. I know I don't get GF. But I feel like even if I did, it'd still be underperfoming my other classes. There's just no spike damage. Just constant slow picking away with abilities that have no control or damage. I've got no reason currently to spend any more time or effort on the class. I'd rather play my TR now that the power change gave him a desperately needed bump.
[*]Class Equality - Things in a game will never be completely equal for all things for all classes. We try our best, but it can have some severe diminishing returns for its worth.
Speaking of which, don't listen to that guy on TRs. They're finally in a good spot right now with the power change. I do not PvP. I hate PvP, actually, it's not a play experience I enjoy at all. However since open beta I've seen it nerfed and nerfed again and nerfed some more, always, always taking even more away without giving anything back, simply because people don't like that the single-target DPS class does its job well, and they get killed by it in PvP trying to take it on 1v1 with a CW or something. Well, yeah, of course.
Problem is, all those nerfs made the class for a very long time barely viable in PvE anymore at its own role, to where people have for quite some time now not wanted them at all. (And compared to the OP ridiculousness of CW/GWF who could and still can get AoE encounters hitting for higher than my TR's long-cooldown single-target powers? My CW's Shard can crit like my TR's Lashing Blade, but Shard has a much shorter cooldown and hits multiples. My GWF's IBS hits higher much of the time, and again, multitarget. Yeah, I can see why TR isn't wanted)
The power change helped immensely. Well, it helped everyone, but finally my TR feels like he's actually got some killing power now instead of having to spend all his time hiding. (Seriously, my rotation changed. I used to run Shadow Strike so I could remain in stealth longer, now I ditched it to keep Dazing Strike there instead along with Impossible to Catch and Lashing Blade. I use Stealth now mostly to get off Lashing Blade crits. And even then I don't feel like I half to use it from stealth anymore. Good job.
Although. Please. For the love of all that's holy. Lurker's Assault. Back when it was nerfed, they also got rid of basically ALL visual indication of it. I realize the black and white effect was hard for some people to see through(Pity it looked so COOL), but can we PLEASE have the countdown timer back at least? Please? Whatever visual effect there might be these days I cannot see at all. Seriously, I have no idea when it's up. At all. Half the time the stealth regen glitches by not constantly refilling the bar slightly but rather letting it drain and then just go back to full while grey then draining from there, so I can't even use that. It makes it impossible for me to coordinate my rotations in it because I don't know how much time I have left or if it's even still going. It's basically unusable for me. I think there might be some kind of dark-ish effect maybe at the edges when it's up? I'm not sure. I have to use low settings and my eyesight is bad. The old visual effect was GREAT, you KNEW it was on and the countdown let you know how long you had on it.
Can someone maybe please look into putting the countdown back? :< Please?
[QUOTE}
[*]Open PvP - The Heroic Encounter has been broken until today, well see if that can lure some more PvE centric players in there. We'll see.
[/QUOTE]
No offense, but that's really not going to help. What keeps me out of the open PvP area is NOT that the HE doesn't work. Motherlode PvE HE breaks too, BTW, but I still go to it in the hopes I'll get one that doesn't. The issue is, I'm a PvE player for a reason. That reason is that I don't like PvP. At all. In any game, ever. I hate the competitive me me me aspect of it, I hate the trashtalk it creates, I hate the us vs. them mentality, I hate every single facet of the very concept. I do not enjoy it, and fixing a single HE is not going to entice me to cross that red line. You could load it with PvE-specific BIS gear and I wouldn't go in there. (Actually doing something like that would make me want to quit, but.) There is no reward that would lead me to go engage in a play experience I can't stand. I play to play with people and cooperate with them and have a good time. PvP is not that for me. Not interested, no matter how fixed the HE is. Sorry. :<
I hope that helped put some light onto why things arent just always fixed as quickly as you (or myself) would like them to. There is always a tangled web of player desires vs what we have time to realistically implement for the fullest effect.
Aye, it did. But perhaps let the art department know that removing even more options from character create on top of what was already taken rankles.
Largely inactive, playing Skyforge as Nai Calus.
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futuunMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The problem with Guardian fighters is, the class has a rough learning curve without any sort of "iwin" button. An intelligent gamer can very well tank/dps/burst even buff their team mates if they feel like going flower power spec... No, a conqueror forum - copy & paste build is not going to hold a node, it is a either, or - situation. There are passives and set boni, that increase the guard meter aswell as stat points.
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Playing as HR/TR/GWF seems to be the better option for certain GF. (no offense intended, just a suggestion.)
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
[*]Guardian Fighters in PvP - I don't believe they are "nearly useless in PvP" at all. They can be VERY hard to kill and can hold a point for LONG periods of time by themselves.
Who do you think can hold a node much better?
Equallly geared GWF/HR/TR can do a better job holding a node than a GF can
A GWF can pretty much hold a node against 1 or 2 person for a very long time. that's a fact
A HR can also do that with their high HP Regen/deflect
A TR? obviously much better since they can troll a node by simple being "sneaky"
A GF? should i even comment on this? use block? are you kidding me
the dev should have atleast 2 hours of game everyday to see how their so call game is progressing.
Equallly geared GWF/HR/TR can do a better job holding a node than a GF can
A GWF can pretty much hold a node against 1 or 2 person for a very long time. that's a fact
A HR can also do that with their high HP Regen/deflect
A TR? obviously much better since they can troll a node by simple being "sneaky"
A GF? should i even comment on this? use block? are you kidding me
the dev should have atleast 2 hours of game everyday to see how their so call game is progressing.
Exactly!, my GF have 50.2% Damage Resistance + 21% From Tenacity, and 29% Deflect, it's near the limit of Tankiness and I still die easy if I'm v/s 2 good geared DPS/CC classes (because our guard break too fast and then we are pretty vulnerable to CC for the lack of of mobility) while a GWF can go Unsto, Frontline Surge/Takedown, IBS and 1 is down... in every forum you can see that ppl agree about these 2 facts, saying that GF is the worst class in PvP/PvE (others say that DC is the worst in PvP, but from what I see, most agree that GF is, and in both worlds, PvP and PvE) and GWF is OP.
Comments
Can you please be more specific? "Glaring problems" isn't much to work from and often what a glaring problem to one person is not as much of a concern to another. Clearly stating issues helps give us the most accurate gauge of an issue's severity and allows us to track them down easier if we arent already working on a solution.
I don't mean to specifically call you out, many comments are like this. But more clear information helps us out, which in turn can get issues fixed more quickly.
Thanks!
2. when after wining the match, before you leave the zone, the enemy points tick to 1000 both sides get a lose counted
3. GG pvp Achivmente kill 1000 npcs: maybe no bug, but killing 1000 npcs in ggpvp where you normally kill zero, since you either take the point before you can kill any of the or you fight against players so you dont have time to kill them
4. you should think of a alternative conditions how double/triple kills are counted or different achievements, since def GF, DC and some other defensive builds have no real chance to get them, when they dont get 3 enemys that die for them
Thanks for the clarification.
1. I believe this was already fixed? I'll double check.
2. I believe there was a related fix to this, I'll double check. Thats a pretty large edge case.
3. That text could certainly be more clear, there are indeed NPCs in the GG Domination however.
4. This will probably not change at this time.
Oh wow I was not expecting a Dev reply. I would love to elaborate on some of the issues that seems to be adversley affecting pvp, in my view, as a whole and not just directed at one single class or play style. I was just trying to push across the point that fixes to Half-elf ear's clipping with long hair or fixing Tiefling tail animations seems pretty unimportant compared to other issues.
1-Armor Penetration still does not affect any DOT abilities. This affects all classes, some more than others, but it's been an issues for ages and it seems like it would be a priority to fix something that's a global issue. This has been an issue a since long before mod 3.
2-Supposively there's and ELO system for the pvp matchmaking ques but if there is it seems to be really screwed up or doesn't even work. Currently there's no parity in the pvp matches for group make up, GS or premades. You're just as likely to end up with a 5 person premade where everybody has 15k+ GS against a similar premade or against a group of 5 random 10k GS people. If the ELO system worked properly it should increase the enjoyment of PVP for everybody from the new beginners to the casual mid level player to the hardcore BIS pvpers.
3-Mod 3 seems to have added more imbalance between classes after they been brought more into line with eachother thanks to the PVP patch. I know things don't always turn out as planned but I would think that some tweaks, to help realine things untill a more indepth study can be done to bring about better long term solutions, would be something that could benefit a large portion of the player base. I'm under the impression that a class balance patch was the next major addition after mod 3, yet I see almost no public info about this and mod4 is already being promoted
3.A-GF's are in a seriously sorry state at the moment in PVP, they're almost completely usless on the majority of teams and are essentially becoming a hinderance that have to be carried. I think the fact that they're terrible in PVE highlights this deficiency even more. The class is seriously dieing and it's a shame since all the class are unique and should have something viable to contribute to any team.
3.B-GWF's got their dmg/survivability ratio nerfed in mod 3 for sentinel builds do to the changed to student of the sword and deep gash yet with the changes implemented to the Destro tree GWF's got even better. Sure they can't go 1 v 3 in the same manner anymore but 20k+ takedown crits and 30k+ indomitable battle strike crits is a bit insane. The fact is since they're crushing people with a single rotation now they don't need the survivability that they previously did. With minimal support they're clearing half a team with ease.
3.C-The reduction in dmg to Socking Execution was sure nice so that people don't have to worry about insta dying anytime they're at 60% HP or less. This also has helped make more defensive armor enchants more viable. This is reflected in the fact that the price of barkshields has gone through the roof while soulforged prices have come down dramatically. Even so, TR's got even better post mod3. Path of Blades can now crit which has increased it's dmg output unless you can avoid the majority of the dmg during it's duration, and with the power rework they've simply substituted that blad fan daily (don't know the actual name) for SE and they simply deal 75% dmg of pre mod 3 SE to multiple targets, often 3+ targets. I've argued in the past that TR's have a really OP mechanic for PVP but at the same time I understand the class is not going to completely redisgned either which means they're dmg needs to be brought back into line based on the survivability or something like "TR's can't cap while invis" needs to be implemented.
3.D-HR's seem to have been over nerfed. Granted they were seriously OP pre mod 3 but now their dmg output is really really low unless they go all class cannon like. At least they can build to be super tanky and have a lot of disables but this just makes them feel like a worse version of a CW or a slightly more useful GF.
3.E-The 8s delay from leaving combat until you can mount is severly affecting any class that needs to rotate a lot. Primarily DC's and CW's. It's incredibly easy to just hit somebody with an auto attack if you see them leaving the node, by the time the 8s timer wears off you're practically at the next node and if you get hit by a constricting shot or choked by a CW or something you essentially have to spend all your time running from one node to another. This has caused the GWF's to become even farther out of line with the rest of the classes because not only do they serve as point holders but now they're also by far the best rotaters also due to their massive burst dmg output and their ability to instantly sprint half way across the map. I'm not saying it should be completely removed because my assumption is that this was implimented to slow down people rotations and therefore reduce the time of pvp matched between well balanced groups. I'm in agreement that 2 hour pvp domination matches are excessive but at least it would seem like a shorter timer would be in order so as not to kill off the effectivness of some classes.
3.*** Some of the achievments in the PVP campain are completely unfair to certain classes. For example you're required to accumulated double and triple kills, this is on the verge of impossible for a cleric due to the current meta. Even with a meta, or a paragorn path that allowed for more offensive clerics it would still be very hard to score triple kills due to the powers we have based on their dmg, if they're aoe and how easy they are to target. It seems that maybe some of the pvp achievments should have been class specific. I think another good example is the kill NPC's in GG, currenly you need 1000 and even with an amazing team where you don't cap points 2 or 4 and pretty much just use them to farm the NPC's you can only achieve about 50 NPC kills and this isn't viable for the majority of matches. It seems like something along the lines of 500 NPC kills may be more in line.
3.G-The leader board was a great idea because ladder systems always create competitivness which adds to the fun in the game for the majority of us. The problem is that it seems to be incrediably biased in how it scores. It doesn't really seem to care if you win or lose and primarily focuses on points capped/defended and kill/death. It also seems like it takes into account ranking and premade vs pug. In theory a lot of this makes sense but it's currently making it very skewed towards certain classes. I'd think that focusing on kill/death over victory/defeat is a poor idea since not all classes are killing machines and just because you're not getting last hit kills doesn't mean a player is being innefectual. Of course I understand that focusing solely on win/loss for example also inflates players ranking who simply get carried and penalizes good players for playing with bad players. Maybe I haven't completely understood the ranking system yet but if there was more transparancy about it this would probably help the community understand it and provide better feedback for adressing issues. It just seems absurd that you make a 5 man premade, get in que, ELO system puts you against 5 randoms who are weaker than you guys. The 5 man premade precedes to crush the random pug team but one guy on the premade team gets carless and is killed once, finishes with a 0-1-X score and a victory yet drops 20 pages in the rankings...
3.H- Some of the rewards are also rather biased towards certain classes such as the boon that gives you 5 glory for each kill. How does that help classes that get almost no kills? It's great if your a GWF or TR getting 15 kills a match or something. It seems like it would be more fair if it counted for kills+asists even if the amount of bonus glory was reduced.
3.I- The max server size seems to small for IWD to bring about the massive pvp scenarios that it was supposed to. Normally you don't seem to get more than half of a servers population engaged in open world PVP at one time and your lucky if there's even that many. Normally there's at least 10-20 players who are just questing etc. Even if you want to join and a server with your guild to have some fun often times you can't because there aren't enough players of the opposing faction or even if another guild wants to joint the same server to fight against you often times they can't get enough players in because the server size is to small.
4-Pre mod3 you could reamain in the pvp arena after a match was completed by simply escapping out of the final results window "x". This is no longer doable and is a real pity since for many people that was the best part of pvp, the ability to spend time after battling, testing and improving your skill or duling against friends or members of other guilds. I don't see that this affected the game play or experience in any way at all, even if it was probably unintended. I therefore see no reason that it was removed when it was such a great feature for so many players
Anyways these were the ideas I had floating on the top of my head atm. I'm sure there are other issues that I've noticed/ discuess with players but they'll have to wait. I understand often times there is no perfect solution and I'm sure you guys try to stay away from knee jerk reactions to please the player base since that usually leads to bad results or severe imbalance. I do believe though that most of my points are pretty objective and are designed to make the pvp experience more enjoyable for everybody, regardless of class, skill or gear.
I hope this helps and I'd love to read any feedback provided or continue the discussion
While there are indeed NPCs in GG domination, either this is meant to be the hardest to achieve or the number is much too high. I am going to be working on that long after I complete the rest of the GG tasks.
Well I opened the can of worms...
First off, its important to understand that the person working on Tiefling tail animations or haircuts is not the same person who will adjust basically anything on class powers or PvP balance. An animator or character artist will rarely if ever do anything design related, they are all different skillsets, talents and procedures on how to get them into the game.
Also, many of these issues are not simple and require time, resources, testing and finally more time and testing.
I hope that helped put some light onto why things arent just always fixed as quickly as you (or myself) would like them to. There is always a tangled web of player desires vs what we have time to realistically implement for the fullest effect.
To point out 3 more clearly:
There are only 2 kind of NPCs in GG Domination.
First there are high Hp mobs that despawn on tabing the base they are standing on. NO option if you playing on win.
Also there are TRs Bait and Switch doubles. A bug, defnetly a bug.
This forcing PvP Players to PvE in a PvP match. It forces Players to leave Controlpoint 2 and 4 to the enemy team, because the need the NPCs spwaning on that bases to kill. If they dont want to hunt TRs for doubles.
btw. that orges and golems are epic, but we dont have pots in PvP. You go down without a DC against them.
Edit: forgotten Amusud, sry about that, but killing an epic giant 1000 times without pots seems no optoin to me...
1) Looks like there is still some cases which can cause Black Ice Domination to stop working. I am in instance #9 of Icewind Pass right now and BI Domination is stuck on the capture points part without the capture nodes being active, just like what happened prepatch. It is working more reliably now, but not 100% fixed.
2) The giant in motherlode is still dropping way too many BI drops and still makes everything close by disappear.
1. when the event starts the score board still has players that arent even in zone/pvpflaged.
2. match started when there where 1 player on each side.
problems with Black ice Domination:
1. starts at random in some instance you cant enter at will or even know about, this lead to only allow those that are in the ini at the moment to take part, but not everyone wants to do pvp, which lead to an uneven matches.
2. no commitment towards the match, when on side is winning or you crush some of the enemy players, they often leave, making this a boring hunt for the last reaming enemys.
solution: make Black Ice Domination start at fixed times and only start when X players of both sides enter an starting area (like those the grp is waiting for you),
this would get ppl in the zone for the event and ensure that the event only starts when there are ppl that want to take part and not only doing the pvp dailys and leaving as soon as the event starts
add a leaver penalty for everyone that is in the starting area or enters after the event has started
maybe add a queue that teleports you in zones to even the numbers
If you expect anything will ever get these players to willingly participate in PvP, you're going to be sorely disappointed.
It's not a matter of "They would like it if only they tried it", it's a matter of not desiring that kind of content in this kind of game. They are rarely here for any kind of competetive play, but rather to hang out with friends and be social while advancing their characters.
They're not.
Even before the nerfs my HR was easily the weakest character in my stable (I play all classes). It should go without saying that nerfs did not improve the situation any. The class is lacking in burst damage and meaningful controls (Grasping Roots is useless). Split Shot is a canard; it's far too slow.
You can one-shot most minion groups with a lot of things. No one cares because it's yard trash.
Nor is the fact that it's an At-Will particularly relevant. My CW's Shard is an Encounter power but everything's dead after the alpha strike and the power will be recharged by the time I reach the next spawn. An HR can get off one solid volley with Split Shot; after that if you stand still long enough to charge it you'll be beaten into the ground.
Here I have big questions, why is not going to change soon something that it obviously unfair?, they do care of DC and GF?, I could just PvP with my HR and get 20+ Kills per match, but I want to play with my GF too... I don't understand how these objectives can come to air and when the obvious happens just say "eh... we are not going to change this soon"... Then why did you put those requirements in the first place!!!... go to the PvP is a struggle with my GF...
Here I kinda agree, GF are not COMPLETELY USELESS, but we are the most useless class in PvP and in PvE with no doubt, also a lot of classes can hold point for LONG periods of time and kill you in the procces (HR, TR, etc...), I wonder if there's at least 1 person on the developers team that is aware of the current state of the GF...
What do you have to say to those DCs?
I do not agree with that, they seem more killeable now but their buffs/healings (HG, AS, etc...) can change the course of PvP, they are by far more useful than a GF...
But as op stated why are their requirements for DC to get kills that is unlikely to change? Game developers are forcing Players to play that class badly to get kills to advance their favorite character. Don't blame the players for following the game mechanics put in place by the devs.
If you want to get a "cookie" you roll halfling HR/GWF/TR for PvP. And this is frustrating.
WTB Class Reroll please
I am thinking there are emergent properties from this community in general and then there is what the devs envision. They are not the same. We want x, as a group. They created the conditions for us to want that. Literally they created those conditions in the form of this game. I think there is a major disconnect in what the community wants out of this game and what the devs want this game to be. That is bad news for them more than anyone. There is a demand. Supply it. Simple *** economics.
Jugger Conq GF
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It sadly hasn't helped much. My HR is undergeared still, granted, but even undergeared my other classes(I've got all six at 60) except for GF(Which is so unfun to play I don't use him at all) all felt like the could at least do something. My GWF wasn't topping Paingiver charts but had at least some survivabilty. My TR... Hit 60 and stopped being undergeared before all the ridiculous nerfs the class has gotten because of PvP crying, so I can't speak to an undergeared TR today(Probably ugly although the power change will have helped, kudos). My CW could still nuke and control. My DC could heal. My HR... Stands in the back and uses Split Shot and Rain of Arrows because that's his only useful damage and he can't survive in close quarters to actually use his Combat tree feats. Maybe I'm just not 'getting' the class, but even with a higher GS and better stat spread than my previous classes, I can't stay up long enough to try to even get anywhere with it. No damage, no survival capabilities(Sure, more dodges, but until you can survive long enough to get those dodges down due to extremely short invuln period and not actually getting out of red, doesn't help).
I feel like this has a lot to do with the sheer number of incredibly horribly bad HRs out there. They still stick to SS spam because it's still their best bet. But again, maybe I'm just not getting it. I know I don't get GF. But I feel like even if I did, it'd still be underperfoming my other classes. There's just no spike damage. Just constant slow picking away with abilities that have no control or damage. I've got no reason currently to spend any more time or effort on the class. I'd rather play my TR now that the power change gave him a desperately needed bump.
Speaking of which, don't listen to that guy on TRs. They're finally in a good spot right now with the power change. I do not PvP. I hate PvP, actually, it's not a play experience I enjoy at all. However since open beta I've seen it nerfed and nerfed again and nerfed some more, always, always taking even more away without giving anything back, simply because people don't like that the single-target DPS class does its job well, and they get killed by it in PvP trying to take it on 1v1 with a CW or something. Well, yeah, of course.
Problem is, all those nerfs made the class for a very long time barely viable in PvE anymore at its own role, to where people have for quite some time now not wanted them at all. (And compared to the OP ridiculousness of CW/GWF who could and still can get AoE encounters hitting for higher than my TR's long-cooldown single-target powers? My CW's Shard can crit like my TR's Lashing Blade, but Shard has a much shorter cooldown and hits multiples. My GWF's IBS hits higher much of the time, and again, multitarget. Yeah, I can see why TR isn't wanted)
The power change helped immensely. Well, it helped everyone, but finally my TR feels like he's actually got some killing power now instead of having to spend all his time hiding. (Seriously, my rotation changed. I used to run Shadow Strike so I could remain in stealth longer, now I ditched it to keep Dazing Strike there instead along with Impossible to Catch and Lashing Blade. I use Stealth now mostly to get off Lashing Blade crits. And even then I don't feel like I half to use it from stealth anymore. Good job.
Although. Please. For the love of all that's holy. Lurker's Assault. Back when it was nerfed, they also got rid of basically ALL visual indication of it. I realize the black and white effect was hard for some people to see through(Pity it looked so COOL), but can we PLEASE have the countdown timer back at least? Please? Whatever visual effect there might be these days I cannot see at all. Seriously, I have no idea when it's up. At all. Half the time the stealth regen glitches by not constantly refilling the bar slightly but rather letting it drain and then just go back to full while grey then draining from there, so I can't even use that. It makes it impossible for me to coordinate my rotations in it because I don't know how much time I have left or if it's even still going. It's basically unusable for me. I think there might be some kind of dark-ish effect maybe at the edges when it's up? I'm not sure. I have to use low settings and my eyesight is bad. The old visual effect was GREAT, you KNEW it was on and the countdown let you know how long you had on it.
Can someone maybe please look into putting the countdown back? :< Please?
[QUOTE}
[*]Open PvP - The Heroic Encounter has been broken until today, well see if that can lure some more PvE centric players in there. We'll see.
[/QUOTE]
No offense, but that's really not going to help. What keeps me out of the open PvP area is NOT that the HE doesn't work. Motherlode PvE HE breaks too, BTW, but I still go to it in the hopes I'll get one that doesn't. The issue is, I'm a PvE player for a reason. That reason is that I don't like PvP. At all. In any game, ever. I hate the competitive me me me aspect of it, I hate the trashtalk it creates, I hate the us vs. them mentality, I hate every single facet of the very concept. I do not enjoy it, and fixing a single HE is not going to entice me to cross that red line. You could load it with PvE-specific BIS gear and I wouldn't go in there. (Actually doing something like that would make me want to quit, but.) There is no reward that would lead me to go engage in a play experience I can't stand. I play to play with people and cooperate with them and have a good time. PvP is not that for me. Not interested, no matter how fixed the HE is. Sorry. :<
Aye, it did. But perhaps let the art department know that removing even more options from character create on top of what was already taken rankles.
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Playing as HR/TR/GWF seems to be the better option for certain GF. (no offense intended, just a suggestion.)
Who do you think can hold a node much better?
Equallly geared GWF/HR/TR can do a better job holding a node than a GF can
A GWF can pretty much hold a node against 1 or 2 person for a very long time. that's a fact
A HR can also do that with their high HP Regen/deflect
A TR? obviously much better since they can troll a node by simple being "sneaky"
A GF?
the dev should have atleast 2 hours of game everyday to see how their so call game is progressing.
Exactly!, my GF have 50.2% Damage Resistance + 21% From Tenacity, and 29% Deflect, it's near the limit of Tankiness and I still die easy if I'm v/s 2 good geared DPS/CC classes (because our guard break too fast and then we are pretty vulnerable to CC for the lack of of mobility) while a GWF can go Unsto, Frontline Surge/Takedown, IBS and 1 is down... in every forum you can see that ppl agree about these 2 facts, saying that GF is the worst class in PvP/PvE (others say that DC is the worst in PvP, but from what I see, most agree that GF is, and in both worlds, PvP and PvE) and GWF is OP.
Devs, pls visit: General Discussion or Gameplay Combat and PvP Discussion and read some posts about PvP, every1 agree that GWF is OP and GF is the worst... ALL!!!, or go to the game to see it by yourself...
This is entirely true.