made a new character reached lvl 60 a few days ago.
8k gs went pvp
while we in the game i get a msg from 1 of my teammates:"why u come here with such low gs"?
for real?
r u serious?!
i have the right to play pvp just as any other "god mode 14k gs"!
i do my best to try to help party, besides everybody started from low gs so now we low gs guys cant pvp???
u want high gs go q with your guild or make a pvp party
if u q u pug and thats what u get!!!!
Can you do CN with an 8k GS?
Why should this be any different?
Remove dailies for PvP and that'll weed out a good 40% of non-pvp commited players and therefore liablity in such team members.
oh, and GIVE them the **** artifact! thats another 20% weeded out, lol
"I'm gonna explode"
"learn some respect"
"they are selfish"
"your being lazy"
Seriously, I'm dying of laughter here.
*ANNOUNCEMENT* Everyone please pay attention: Your sole purpose in playing this game is to provide these players with the absolute best PVP experience they can have. If your Q'ing for PVP for anything other than this purpose then your doing it wrong. You must do as they say, play how they say, and above all, show fealty to them at all times. Because if you do anything else, they may explode and check your Gear Score and you don't want that to happen do you? No you don't, that's bad
So as long as your in the gear that they approve of and are doing the things that they approve of all will be well they will not explode and your Gear Score will not be checked.
Thank you for your attention.
*END OF ANNOUNCEMENT*
Pretty much this. It is so accurate, that it deserves to be repeated.
My hunter ranger's gear score was 11k when this happened, a GWF of 16k said and I quote:"lol they are going to have a fun time with you, you gs is so ****!!!"
During the whole game he just stood by the campfire meanwhile I gain nr. 1 spot. We lost. But I can safely say I was not useless. Anyone can be useless. Just because you have a mega gear score does not mean you are good. Having skills it doesn't matter what your gear score is.
Another example of what I mean: I played just the other with a cw with a gear score of 7k, BUT he had the third most kills, ranked number 3 and he murdered a perma rogue of 12k.
My hunter ranger's gear score was 11k when this happened, a GWF of 16k said and I quote:"lol they are going to have a fun time with you, you gs is so ****!!!"
During the whole game he just stood by the campfire meanwhile I gain nr. 1 spot. We lost. But I can safely say I was not useless. Anyone can be useless. Just because you have a mega gear score does not mean you are good. Having skills it doesn't matter what your gear score is.
Another example of what I mean: I played just the other with a cw with a gear score of 7k, BUT he had the third most kills, ranked number 3 and he murdered a perma rogue of 12k.
Gs does not = Skill
11k is not low its ok, 8k cw killing 12k gs rogue, either rogue sucks or cw ganked him from the ledge and killed him with low health.
gs does not mean skill but the lack of gs to the point where its 8k totally means lack of self respect. you can get all epic gear with rank 5's spend very few AD and get to 10k without breaking a sweat so yes 8k sucks, but it could be worse you could be a 5k all in greens with gear worse than my lvl 50 invoke only alt...
Its even worse when the 8k people say: i'm here only for the daily i do not care, if you do not care you do not deserve any respect... whatever
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waferthinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 13Arc User
Just because you have a mega gear score does not mean you are good. Having skills it doesn't matter what your gear score is.
Gs does not = Skill
Of course it doesnt, there's a phallacy. But, more often than not, a low GS in PvP is a LIABILITY. And in an ideal world, the objective is to REDUCE liability before you even hit the arena.
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waferthinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 13Arc User
theres no law says u cant pvp with 8k, in fact skills and experience sometimes are more impotant than gs, but if u dont even bother to gear up first its disrespectful for the arena. "i do everything to help the party" u say, i wonder what exactly can u do but ruining others' fun/pvp experience. pvp requires teamwork and everyone has a role in order to dominate as a team. get some decent stats tailored for pvp and rank6+ before even think about entering.
Quite a few people in this thread trying to suggest that skill is more important than gear - it's not and it never will be.
I play a GWF,a decently geared and properly speced one.I've completely outplayed people to the point of wanting to shoot myself because of how bad they are yet they are perfectly capable of murdering me horribly regardless of how much better i perform as a player simply because:
1) They have better gear
2) They get lucky with RNG
3) They are using something broken and overpowered(bugged feat/encounter or FOTM overbuffed build) or a build/class that simply counters mine
The only time skill will compensate for having less gear is when the gear difference isn't large enough to make winning impossible,or when 2) and 3) apply to you instead of them.Yes,being the better player CAN give you an advantage but it will never overcome all your shortcomings elsewhere - thats down to luck...or your enemy lagging.
Bah. The elitist attitude in this thread makes me sick. It's your game. If you just got to lvl 60 and you want to try out new things that's perfectly alright, no matter what your gearscore is (as long as you qualify of course). Limiting PvP to any gearscore is nothing short of arrogance saying "I want a decent challenge from you if you enter the instance I happen to be in. If you can't make me work to kill you don't enter." Sickening.
People have to start somewhere. Not everybody buys 5k zen when he hits 60 and equips himself with the best gear he can find. Even assuming people should is arrogance to the max. And the PvP people wonder why PvE people can't stand their attitude.
That said, I"m sure TS realizes after his first matches that with his 8k GS he doesn't stand much chance to win. If he wants to advance he'll have to improve his gear (and maybe his built if he wants to make it his main activity). But that's his choice. Maybe the TS doesn't want to make PvP his main activity in the game. Normal people learn by trial and error. Trying something new that doesn't require a GS doesn't give people the right to flame him. It's a normal human process of learning what it takes to do things better.
If the TS was refusing to improve himself it would have been a different matter entirely.
I wonder how happy you'd be if you had to do Spellplague Caverns with a 8.4k GS TR who slots impact shot, lashing blade, and blitz. Just curious. Would you still do the dungeon with him even knowing he could barely withstand one shot from an ad? Or would you leave..... hmm
I tried pvp at low levels also, and it is a twink fest. Don't try it without twinking. Had people in there that your best attacks barely scratch them, and they 2 shot you.
I wonder how happy you'd be if you had to do Spellplague Caverns with a 8.4k GS TR who slots impact shot, lashing blade, and blitz. Just curios. Would you still do the dungeon with him even knowing he could barely withstand one shot from an ad? Or would you leave..... hmm
Quite a few people in this thread trying to suggest that skill is more important than gear - it's not and it never will be.
I play a GWF,a decently geared and properly speced one.I've completely outplayed people to the point of wanting to shoot myself because of how bad they are yet they are perfectly capable of murdering me horribly regardless of how much better i perform as a player simply because:
1) They have better gear
2) They get lucky with RNG
3) They are using something broken and overpowered(bugged feat/encounter or FOTM overbuffed build) or a build/class that simply counters mine
The only time skill will compensate for having less gear is when the gear difference isn't large enough to make winning impossible,or when 2) and 3) apply to you instead of them.Yes,being the better player CAN give you an advantage but it will never overcome all your shortcomings elsewhere - thats down to luck...or your enemy lagging.
I can't disagree with this more. See dying to win. Being bis or at least really well geared means a lot where 1v1 is concerned, maybe, but where an entire match is concerned, not so much. You look at the match and the patterns that are emerging and you adjust. In pugs it doesnt matter how much you die. Go right back to where you were and keep it up. Contest that node relentlessly. Fight on the node when it is red domnant and kite when it is blue dominant. Blue dominant with a bis gwf who is otherwise without any kind of skill, that gwf will chase you, he will go off node and chase you. You go on the node until he gets close then back off. Your team mates who might also be low gs but otherwise skilled, will jump on that node. It turns blue while that enemy gwf is stomping your brains out in some totally irrelevant and distant corner of the map. Skillz = winz. Equal skills is the only place where gs even comes into play, other than a general vague indication of a person commitment to their character.
I wonder how happy you'd be if you had to do Spellplague Caverns with a 8.4k GS TR who slots impact shot, lashing blade, and blitz. Just curious. Would you still do the dungeon with him even knowing he could barely withstand one shot from an ad? Or would you leave..... hmm
Have done. Spell's not too bad. It'd be harder if you were in a team of 4 people like that, but probably still manageable.
Karrundax would not be so good for one-shottable peeps, but if they can dodge: still doable.
The trick is to teach them what they're doing wrong, rather than just swear and leave.
Here are my arguments why you wouldn't want low GS players in your team;
- They totally lack of experience, they will fight outside of caps for the entire match, or end up fightning 3v1 or 4v1 at one cap (thank to trolling TRs)
- If you die next to them they surely won't resurrect you. '' Where's the **** '' f key '' ?!
- They are lead by emotional responses; they would rather focus on the player they see at first sight rather than focusing on a healer or more squishy chars.
-Therefore, if you are well geared, prepare to also get 3v1 or 4v1 since your four teammates are already trying to kill a GWF or TR in your home cap
- It will make the game rapidly unbalanced, thus boring and unappealing. Where's the fun to PvP with non-experienced players all the
time when you have been PvPing since the beta? It's like getting back in the first day of beta. It gives a fade and boring match, turning PvP into a grind feeling.
- It's not fun to play against low GS players for the same measures, there's no balance, it's boring to kill someone in one rotation.
- They will open their mouth and tell you're a **** if you DARE to stay at the campfire after being 4v1 four times in a row because your teammates are busy dying in two shots or as I previously said, being busy with a TR or a GWF in your home cap.
- As an experienced PvP player, If you have a low GS, I'm sorry but you shouldn't handicap the whole team and lead it prematurely to a lose. Carrying your team for an entire match and then lose isn't very gratifying for your brain.
- It only takes a few weeks to get an average 11-12K GS, make some efforts and don't ruin the experience of others players who make daily efforts to grind their gears in order to be competitive.
- I noticed my PvP experience has been declining for a few months now, the matchmaking provides no balance at all, NONE. Most games lead to one sided matches, you either destroy your opponent or vice-versa, I can't remember the last time I've played a long, hard and balanced match.
- Personal observation for the last point; the Turks and followed by the French in second places are probably the worst players in PvP. I respect the Turks for trying with 9K GS but the Frenchs are well known for their role playing, you can easily see PvP isn't their strength.
Funnily enough, all the listed above could come in favor of a "why you want low GS players in your team" post. Playing against high gs is boring bc fights are longer, ppl hide their lack of skill behind their gs, and so on.
As for the worst pvp nation, I'd say I can see "Pomocy" very often. In Turkish I do not know how they say it. "Help" is of course very frequent so I guess NA ppl are either the most common players or the easiest to kill. I can't remember seeing "a l'aide" very often, nor "Hilfe" btw. Because of ping, Aussies should be last by far, not their fault at all, Cryptic's 100%.
I wonder how happy you'd be if you had to do Spellplague Caverns with a 8.4k GS TR who slots impact shot, lashing blade, and blitz. Just curious. Would you still do the dungeon with him even knowing he could barely withstand one shot from an ad? Or would you leave..... hmm
I have two positive experiences with lowbies;
1) I taught a DC how to heal a dungeon in Mad Dragon. Mad. Dragon. He told me he had no experience in party play, that Mad Dragon was his first dungeon and that he honestly does not know what he is doing. I got him to change his entire rotation and told him what to use and when, using my own experience as a DC. This made a huge difference in our performance. In fact, aside from myself and one of the two HRs, the other 3 players were complete newbies in the extreme. We coached that party right to the end. Granted we had to lose one HR to kill Chartilifax (he was replaced by my guildie GWF), but we done it.
2) After witnessing 2 of my teammates absolutely trash talk the 8.5k DC in my party I told them off for attacking him when it is the game's fault that he has been paired with us. The rest of us were 12k+, by the way. After the match I gave the DC tips on how he could improve himself on the cheap via the AH. I transferred to his instance and found him by the mailbox near the AH in PE, inspected him and saw that he was wearing high regen-defense blues I told him to look for and he had even purchased Grand Priest's Rings and slotted them with R5 Radiants. Pushed his GS over 10k and had greatly improved his defensive stats. I also advised him to move more (I've even PM'd enemies I've killed in PVP and told them to move because they made it too easy for me).
I'm not saying you are, but there are faaaar too many 133tz in this game that think every player should know the ins and outs of everything. There are lowbies all over, people still learning and often times learning the hard way. Hell, I had to buy purple gear for my DC (my first toon) because I thought this game was impossible and couldn't finish a T2.
If you don't want to be exposed to lowbies then queue as a premade.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
It's clearly intended that everyone can do PVP, otherwise PW would have added a GS requirement like with the dungeons, or for IWD. Also, 10k GS or even 12k (the later isn't easy to reach for some classes, CW gets a lot less stats somehow, so you need several 100k even after getting full T2) doesn'T mean anything aganst people using perfect soulforged and greater vorpal and plaguefire and with 2000 tenacity or whatever. Sure, you might survive one or two hits instead of dying instantly, but you die.
Why not require people to have less than 14k GS if they want to PVP, so everyone has a chance? Kinda stupid, too, but at least it would not be an elite club and enjoyable for a greater part of the player base.
The better solution would be for PW to better (or at all?) sort people according to GS and other stats (it's tracking everything after all, even whether you kileld a melee or ranged char). If it would even remember that player x performs better when player y is in the match, too, it could even sort those groups according to the expected performance. Not impossible, just a matter of tracking stats accordingly. Seeing the current state of matchmaking, it's unlikely we will ever see something like this, but GS etc. would be a start..
Why not require people to have less than 14k GS if they want to PVP
Constructive suggestion. A "Level 60, less than 8k gs" queue would see much more skill than an "at least 18k gs" one. Yesterday there was this low-gs CW at b2. Making clever use of his spells to avoid activating my Unstoppable. Saving his dodges. Always moving, never leaving b2. Me, terrible pvp-er, poor build. But twice his gs, I smashed him. Who here should be allowed to participate in pvp? Him of course.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Quite a few people in this thread trying to suggest that skill is more important than gear - it's not and it never will be.
+1
Not trying to suggest, making the statement that skill is more important and substantiating that statement with a logical argument. No one is offering a counter argument, only, "ehh its not true, gearz iz mawr importants!"
1) I taught a DC how to heal a dungeon in Mad Dragon. Mad. Dragon. He told me he had no experience in party play, that Mad Dragon was his first dungeon and that he honestly does not know what he is doing. I got him to change his entire rotation and told him what to use and when, using my own experience as a DC. This made a huge difference in our performance. In fact, aside from myself and one of the two HRs, the other 3 players were complete newbies in the extreme. We coached that party right to the end. Granted we had to lose one HR to kill Chartilifax (he was replaced by my guildie GWF), but we done it.
2) After witnessing 2 of my teammates absolutely trash talk the 8.5k DC in my party I told them off for attacking him when it is the game's fault that he has been paired with us. The rest of us were 12k+, by the way. After the match I gave the DC tips on how he could improve himself on the cheap via the AH. I transferred to his instance and found him by the mailbox near the AH in PE, inspected him and saw that he was wearing high regen-defense blues I told him to look for and he had even purchased Grand Priest's Rings and slotted them with R5 Radiants. Pushed his GS over 10k and had greatly improved his defensive stats. I also advised him to move more (I've even PM'd enemies I've killed in PVP and told them to move because they made it too easy for me).
I'm not saying you are, but there are faaaar too many 133tz in this game that think every player should know the ins and outs of everything. There are lowbies all over, people still learning and often times learning the hard way. Hell, I had to buy purple gear for my DC (my first toon) because I thought this game was impossible and couldn't finish a T2.
If you don't want to be exposed to lowbies then queue as a premade.
My point exactly... What if instead of the DC listening to you... They took it as an insult and decided to make a post on the forums about it... Welcome to the PVP world!!
Just wondering, if you get a group full of 8.3gs new players who don't know how to play their class in spell plague, do you get frustrated and leave dungeon or do you keep trying until you finish it?
It's clearly intended that everyone can do PVP, otherwise PW would have added a GS requirement like with the dungeons, or for IWD. Also, 10k GS or even 12k (the later isn't easy to reach for some classes, CW gets a lot less stats somehow, so you need several 100k even after getting full T2) doesn'T mean anything aganst people using perfect soulforged and greater vorpal and plaguefire and with 2000 tenacity or whatever. Sure, you might survive one or two hits instead of dying instantly, but you die.
Why not require people to have less than 14k GS if they want to PVP, so everyone has a chance? Kinda stupid, too, but at least it would not be an elite club and enjoyable for a greater part of the player base.
The better solution would be for PW to better (or at all?) sort people according to GS and other stats (it's tracking everything after all, even whether you kileld a melee or ranged char). If it would even remember that player x performs better when player y is in the match, too, it could even sort those groups according to the expected performance. Not impossible, just a matter of tracking stats accordingly. Seeing the current state of matchmaking, it's unlikely we will ever see something like this, but GS etc. would be a start..
That would just encourage people to not spend loads of money on the game so they can stay below that GS limit. You're correct for some people it takes work to get high gs (CW,TR) but for others it's really easy (GWF)
i would play how you want to play and take in-game criticisms with a grain of salt. if someone is being a jerk, which is not uncommon in pvp zone chat or pvp chat in general, then just ignore them. the guy that asked you that at one point had to have 8k GS and if he wanted to pvp, then i'm sure he pvp'd. you're obviously going to work on getting better gear, building up your glory points, etc. so... i wouldn't let any of that bother you. you can also turn off zone/party chat while pvping. just eliminate the noise all together.
as for GS based matchmaking... here's a recent post from the great panderus:
First off, its important to understand that the person working on Tiefling tail animations or haircuts is not the same person who will adjust basically anything on class powers or PvP balance. An animator or character artist will rarely if ever do anything design related, they are all different skillsets, talents and procedures on how to get them into the game.
Also, many of these issues are not simple and require time, resources, testing and finally more time and testing.
Armor Penetration - Yea, this isn't ideal and we aren't a fan either. However, it takes a good amount of work to not only fix everything, but then bring down the current damage levels to compensate for this. ArPen isn't worthless in most cases and powers deal about the damage we want them to. It takes a long time to make a new class, it also takes a long time to make these sorts of sweeping changes.
PvP Elo - There is. GS is not a factor on purpose, as gear will help you do better and thusly get a better skill rating. Its also not the end all of winning a match, point control is much more important. Depending on the time of the day, there may not be enough people in the queue to get a good rating match with. We are monitoring this and are considering adjusting things, but we dont want queue times to increase too much. Finally, premade vs premade: Players who do premades will win more often, giving them a better skill value, which means they are more likley to play against other premades and highly skilled (and likley geared) players.
Guardian Fighters in PvP - I don't believe they are "nearly useless in PvP" at all. They can be VERY hard to kill and can hold a point for LONG periods of time by themselves.
Hunter Rangers - We made a lot of changes in Preview and we hope they are in a better place than they were before. Split Shot and a few other powers were just too powerful to even need anything else. We are keeping an eye on things.
Class Equality - Things in a game will never be completely equal for all things for all classes. We try our best, but it can have some severe diminishing returns for its worth.
Open PvP - The Heroic Encounter has been broken until today, well see if that can lure some more PvE centric players in there. We'll see.
Post Domination Fighting - This was a bug that allowed players to grief others and cause injuries. We should support dueling in a more appropriate manner. There is another post about this as well.
I hope that helped put some light onto why things arent just always fixed as quickly as you (or myself) would like them to. There is always a tangled web of player desires vs what we have time to realistically implement for the fullest effect.
Not trying to suggest, making the statement that skill is more important and substantiating that statement with a logical argument. No one is offering a counter argument, only, "ehh its not true, gearz iz mawr importants!"
The unfortunate truth is that many people don't realize that gear IS part of skill.
If we compare PvP to professional fighting sports, the "skill" in PvP would be equivalet of the actual fighting technique, practiced and learned through lessons, coaching, sparring, etc..
However, what they do not realize is that in order to fight less than 10 minutes in a fight, the fighters need to train for many months, spending hours and hours everyday in order to bring their physcial conditioning to its peak. Usually more than 70% of the training for an upcoming match consists of lengthy hours of exercises, workouts, and roadwork to increase the cardios, lung capacity, muscle endurance, overall stamina, toughness and resistance to damage and pain, pure muscle strength, agility, etc etc..
People don't realize that advanced skill and technique comes through advanced physical conditioning. It doesn't matter how you can artistically hit someone with a fancy move, when you don't have enough stamina to last 3 minutes of gruelling, heart-busting, breath-gasping physical movement. Who the heck cares if you can kick someone at blinding speeds in a fancy footwork, when you don't have enough strength to actually deal damage to the opponent?
This is the what gear and spec means in PvP. Just like physical conditioning, gear takes time to progress. You need constant investment and effort to acquire the latest gear. Some people call it the "PvP arms-race" and they are exactly right. Just as professional fighters train in an "arms-race" to secure better physical for the fight, same with PvP.
Frankly, the "you won because of gear" argument some people come up with, is meaningless. It simply means whether by money, or by time and effort invested, or a mix of both, some people make sure they are as prepared as can be when they go into a fight.
Those who neglect this preparation don't deserve to complain about skill -- they aren't prepared in even the most basics of what you need in PvP. How can they complain about anything in that state of mind?
"Oooh I'm not as rich as you... I don't open my wallets... fuh fuh fuh..." :rolleyes: None of our business as to why someone comes walking into a fight with just skin and bones and zero muscle or stamina. The only thing important to anyone in this matter, is whether you are prepared to do the job, or not.
If not, no right to complain about anything. Come back when actually prepared.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i would play how you want to play and take in-game criticisms with a grain of salt. if someone is being a jerk, which is not uncommon in pvp zone chat or pvp chat in general, then just ignore them. the guy that asked you that at one point had to have 8k GS and if he wanted to pvp, then i'm sure he pvp'd. you're obviously going to work on getting better gear, building up your glory points, etc. so... i wouldn't let any of that bother you. you can also turn off zone/party chat while pvping. just eliminate the noise all together.
Seeing a mod encourage ignorance is really really really a super bad sign for this game. It means anyone with a serious competitive attitude and a disposable income to match is not welcome. Let the riff raff completely spoil the fun of the paying customers, and you might as well just say good buy this game as something that can make a profit for its makers. Like having a free movie theater but you have to pay to get the good seats, and everyone in the free seats way in the back throws pop corn and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> down on the front seats and yells and stuff through the show, and the usher comes in and says, "enjoy the movie any way you want". Really? No don't encourage f2p people to l2p, just tell them to do whatever they want. You might as well tell the rest of us, "don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out".
The quoted post is exactly the type of communication that should happen all time between players and developers. Gotta give it to panderus for taking the time to elaborate an answer, even though I might not like some of his opinions, but at least he spoke his mind.
The unfortunate truth is that many people don't realize that gear IS part of skill. If we compare PvP to a professional fighting sport, the "skill" in PvP would be equivalet of the actual fighting technique, practiced and learned through lessons, coaching, sparring, etc..
The thing is, many people only see this much. They just don't realize that in order to fight in a match that lasts what, less than 10 minutes in most fighting sports, around 30 minutes or so in boxing? Fighters train for months, many hours invested everyday in order to bring their physcial conditioning to its peak. Usually more than 70% of the training for the upcoming match consists of lengthy hours of exercises, workouts, and roadwork to increase strength and stamina.
People don't realize that advanced skill and technique comes through advanced physical conditioning. It doesn't matter how much you can artistically hit someone with a fancy move, when you don't have enough stamina to endure the 3 minutes of gruelling, heart-busting physical movement. Who the heck cares if you can kick someone at blinding speeds in a fancy footwork, when you don't have enough strength to actually deal damage?
This is the what "gear" means in PvP. Just like physical conditioning, gear takes time to progress. You need constant investment and effort to acquire the latest gear. Some people call it the "PvP arms-race" and they are exactly right. Just as professional fighters train in an "arms-race" to secure better physical for the fight, same with PvP.
Frankly, the "you won because of gear" argument some people come up with, is meaningless. It simply means whether by money, or by time/effort invested, or a mix of both, some people make sure they are as prepared as can be when they expect a fight. Those who neglect this preparation don't even deserve to complain about skill -- they aren't even ready in the most basic aspect of fighting.
"Oooh I'm not as rich as you... I don't open my wallets... fuh fuh fuh..." :rolleyes: None of our business as to why someone comes walking into a fight with just skin and bones and zero muscle or stamina. The only thing important in this matter, is whether you are prepared. If not, no right to complain about anything.
I agree with this and would ad that I even troll people in pvp for being p2win. It is just arena trash talk and nothing more. When I come on the forums I am speaking as a customer and try to put out well thought out responses or ideas. Apparently though, they don't want serious competitors willing to spend time and money because after all, everyone is encouraged to play as they want. F that there are plenty of games that take themselves a lot more seriously than that.
Seeing a mod encourage ignorance is really really really a super bad sign for this game. It means anyone with a serious competitive attitude and a disposable income to match is not welcome. Let the riff raff completely spoil the fun of the paying customers, and you might as well just say good buy this game as something that can make a profit for its makers. Like having a free movie theater but you have to pay to get the good seats, and everyone in the free seats way in the back throws pop corn and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> down on the front seats and yells and stuff through the show, and the usher comes in and says, "enjoy the movie any way you want". Really? No don't encourage f2p people to l2p, just tell them to do whatever they want. You might as well tell the rest of us, "don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out".
I agree with this and would ad that I even troll people in pvp for being p2win. It is just arena trash talk and nothing more. When I come on the forums I am speaking as a customer and try to put out well thought out responses or ideas. Apparently though, they don't want serious competitors willing to spend time and money because after all, everyone is encouraged to play as they want. F that there are plenty of games that take themselves a lot more seriously than that.
so... you're contradicting yourself here. me telling a player to play the game in a way that makes sense to him goes for both people that want to engage in trash talk and people that don't care for it. there are tools in game that allow me to disengage from it if i want to. from a marketing standpoint, if PWE wanted to limit pvp to serious competitive pvp play, there are many ways they could do that. but they don't. there is plenty of room for different play styles to exist.
and you have your movie analogy all wrong... if neverwinter were like a free film festival, it would be first come first serve to the seats. the longer you stay, the better your seats will be. the popcorn and cokes aren't free but are entirely optional and so are the 3D glasses, but they certainly enhance the experience. you might be able to talk during the film, but if you are too much of a distraction, you'll be ejected from the theater. after all, rules are rules. and as always, you're definitely free to leave if you aren't enjoying yourself. not everyone is going to like the movie. the writer, director and producers are well aware of that fact.
Comments
This thread is a goldmine for ignorelist candidates.
Can you do CN with an 8k GS?
Why should this be any different?
Remove dailies for PvP and that'll weed out a good 40% of non-pvp commited players and therefore liablity in such team members.
oh, and GIVE them the **** artifact! thats another 20% weeded out, lol
Pretty much this. It is so accurate, that it deserves to be repeated.
My hunter ranger's gear score was 11k when this happened, a GWF of 16k said and I quote:"lol they are going to have a fun time with you, you gs is so ****!!!"
During the whole game he just stood by the campfire meanwhile I gain nr. 1 spot. We lost. But I can safely say I was not useless. Anyone can be useless. Just because you have a mega gear score does not mean you are good. Having skills it doesn't matter what your gear score is.
Another example of what I mean: I played just the other with a cw with a gear score of 7k, BUT he had the third most kills, ranked number 3 and he murdered a perma rogue of 12k.
Gs does not = Skill
Classy Hyena: HR
Classy Mistress: GWF
11k is not low its ok, 8k cw killing 12k gs rogue, either rogue sucks or cw ganked him from the ledge and killed him with low health.
gs does not mean skill but the lack of gs to the point where its 8k totally means lack of self respect. you can get all epic gear with rank 5's spend very few AD and get to 10k without breaking a sweat so yes 8k sucks, but it could be worse you could be a 5k all in greens with gear worse than my lvl 50 invoke only alt...
Its even worse when the 8k people say: i'm here only for the daily i do not care, if you do not care you do not deserve any respect... whatever
Of course it doesnt, there's a phallacy. But, more often than not, a low GS in PvP is a LIABILITY. And in an ideal world, the objective is to REDUCE liability before you even hit the arena.
Thats why I said remove the **** daily... problem solved...in parts
I play a GWF,a decently geared and properly speced one.I've completely outplayed people to the point of wanting to shoot myself because of how bad they are yet they are perfectly capable of murdering me horribly regardless of how much better i perform as a player simply because:
1) They have better gear
2) They get lucky with RNG
3) They are using something broken and overpowered(bugged feat/encounter or FOTM overbuffed build) or a build/class that simply counters mine
The only time skill will compensate for having less gear is when the gear difference isn't large enough to make winning impossible,or when 2) and 3) apply to you instead of them.Yes,being the better player CAN give you an advantage but it will never overcome all your shortcomings elsewhere - thats down to luck...or your enemy lagging.
I wonder how happy you'd be if you had to do Spellplague Caverns with a 8.4k GS TR who slots impact shot, lashing blade, and blitz. Just curious. Would you still do the dungeon with him even knowing he could barely withstand one shot from an ad? Or would you leave..... hmm
of course they wouldn't take a player like that.
I can't disagree with this more. See dying to win. Being bis or at least really well geared means a lot where 1v1 is concerned, maybe, but where an entire match is concerned, not so much. You look at the match and the patterns that are emerging and you adjust. In pugs it doesnt matter how much you die. Go right back to where you were and keep it up. Contest that node relentlessly. Fight on the node when it is red domnant and kite when it is blue dominant. Blue dominant with a bis gwf who is otherwise without any kind of skill, that gwf will chase you, he will go off node and chase you. You go on the node until he gets close then back off. Your team mates who might also be low gs but otherwise skilled, will jump on that node. It turns blue while that enemy gwf is stomping your brains out in some totally irrelevant and distant corner of the map. Skillz = winz. Equal skills is the only place where gs even comes into play, other than a general vague indication of a person commitment to their character.
Jugger Conq GF
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Have done. Spell's not too bad. It'd be harder if you were in a team of 4 people like that, but probably still manageable.
Karrundax would not be so good for one-shottable peeps, but if they can dodge: still doable.
The trick is to teach them what they're doing wrong, rather than just swear and leave.
Funnily enough, all the listed above could come in favor of a "why you want low GS players in your team" post. Playing against high gs is boring bc fights are longer, ppl hide their lack of skill behind their gs, and so on.
As for the worst pvp nation, I'd say I can see "Pomocy" very often. In Turkish I do not know how they say it. "Help" is of course very frequent so I guess NA ppl are either the most common players or the easiest to kill. I can't remember seeing "a l'aide" very often, nor "Hilfe" btw. Because of ping, Aussies should be last by far, not their fault at all, Cryptic's 100%.
Capping nodes and winning matches? That's where skill (and teamwork) matters more than gear. You don't need 15k GS to backcap.
I have two positive experiences with lowbies;
1) I taught a DC how to heal a dungeon in Mad Dragon. Mad. Dragon. He told me he had no experience in party play, that Mad Dragon was his first dungeon and that he honestly does not know what he is doing. I got him to change his entire rotation and told him what to use and when, using my own experience as a DC. This made a huge difference in our performance. In fact, aside from myself and one of the two HRs, the other 3 players were complete newbies in the extreme. We coached that party right to the end. Granted we had to lose one HR to kill Chartilifax (he was replaced by my guildie GWF), but we done it.
2) After witnessing 2 of my teammates absolutely trash talk the 8.5k DC in my party I told them off for attacking him when it is the game's fault that he has been paired with us. The rest of us were 12k+, by the way. After the match I gave the DC tips on how he could improve himself on the cheap via the AH. I transferred to his instance and found him by the mailbox near the AH in PE, inspected him and saw that he was wearing high regen-defense blues I told him to look for and he had even purchased Grand Priest's Rings and slotted them with R5 Radiants. Pushed his GS over 10k and had greatly improved his defensive stats. I also advised him to move more (I've even PM'd enemies I've killed in PVP and told them to move because they made it too easy for me).
I'm not saying you are, but there are faaaar too many 133tz in this game that think every player should know the ins and outs of everything. There are lowbies all over, people still learning and often times learning the hard way. Hell, I had to buy purple gear for my DC (my first toon) because I thought this game was impossible and couldn't finish a T2.
If you don't want to be exposed to lowbies then queue as a premade.
Why not require people to have less than 14k GS if they want to PVP, so everyone has a chance? Kinda stupid, too, but at least it would not be an elite club and enjoyable for a greater part of the player base.
The better solution would be for PW to better (or at all?) sort people according to GS and other stats (it's tracking everything after all, even whether you kileld a melee or ranged char). If it would even remember that player x performs better when player y is in the match, too, it could even sort those groups according to the expected performance. Not impossible, just a matter of tracking stats accordingly. Seeing the current state of matchmaking, it's unlikely we will ever see something like this, but GS etc. would be a start..
Constructive suggestion. A "Level 60, less than 8k gs" queue would see much more skill than an "at least 18k gs" one. Yesterday there was this low-gs CW at b2. Making clever use of his spells to avoid activating my Unstoppable. Saving his dodges. Always moving, never leaving b2. Me, terrible pvp-er, poor build. But twice his gs, I smashed him. Who here should be allowed to participate in pvp? Him of course.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Jugger Conq GF
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My point exactly... What if instead of the DC listening to you... They took it as an insult and decided to make a post on the forums about it... Welcome to the PVP world!!
That would just encourage people to not spend loads of money on the game so they can stay below that GS limit. You're correct for some people it takes work to get high gs (CW,TR) but for others it's really easy (GWF)
as for GS based matchmaking... here's a recent post from the great panderus:
The unfortunate truth is that many people don't realize that gear IS part of skill.
If we compare PvP to professional fighting sports, the "skill" in PvP would be equivalet of the actual fighting technique, practiced and learned through lessons, coaching, sparring, etc..
However, what they do not realize is that in order to fight less than 10 minutes in a fight, the fighters need to train for many months, spending hours and hours everyday in order to bring their physcial conditioning to its peak. Usually more than 70% of the training for an upcoming match consists of lengthy hours of exercises, workouts, and roadwork to increase the cardios, lung capacity, muscle endurance, overall stamina, toughness and resistance to damage and pain, pure muscle strength, agility, etc etc..
People don't realize that advanced skill and technique comes through advanced physical conditioning. It doesn't matter how you can artistically hit someone with a fancy move, when you don't have enough stamina to last 3 minutes of gruelling, heart-busting, breath-gasping physical movement. Who the heck cares if you can kick someone at blinding speeds in a fancy footwork, when you don't have enough strength to actually deal damage to the opponent?
This is the what gear and spec means in PvP. Just like physical conditioning, gear takes time to progress. You need constant investment and effort to acquire the latest gear. Some people call it the "PvP arms-race" and they are exactly right. Just as professional fighters train in an "arms-race" to secure better physical for the fight, same with PvP.
Frankly, the "you won because of gear" argument some people come up with, is meaningless. It simply means whether by money, or by time and effort invested, or a mix of both, some people make sure they are as prepared as can be when they go into a fight.
Those who neglect this preparation don't deserve to complain about skill -- they aren't prepared in even the most basics of what you need in PvP. How can they complain about anything in that state of mind?
"Oooh I'm not as rich as you... I don't open my wallets... fuh fuh fuh..." :rolleyes: None of our business as to why someone comes walking into a fight with just skin and bones and zero muscle or stamina. The only thing important to anyone in this matter, is whether you are prepared to do the job, or not.
If not, no right to complain about anything. Come back when actually prepared.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Seeing a mod encourage ignorance is really really really a super bad sign for this game. It means anyone with a serious competitive attitude and a disposable income to match is not welcome. Let the riff raff completely spoil the fun of the paying customers, and you might as well just say good buy this game as something that can make a profit for its makers. Like having a free movie theater but you have to pay to get the good seats, and everyone in the free seats way in the back throws pop corn and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> down on the front seats and yells and stuff through the show, and the usher comes in and says, "enjoy the movie any way you want". Really? No don't encourage f2p people to l2p, just tell them to do whatever they want. You might as well tell the rest of us, "don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out".
Jugger Conq GF
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The quoted post is exactly the type of communication that should happen all time between players and developers. Gotta give it to panderus for taking the time to elaborate an answer, even though I might not like some of his opinions, but at least he spoke his mind.
Jugger Conq GF
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so... you're contradicting yourself here. me telling a player to play the game in a way that makes sense to him goes for both people that want to engage in trash talk and people that don't care for it. there are tools in game that allow me to disengage from it if i want to. from a marketing standpoint, if PWE wanted to limit pvp to serious competitive pvp play, there are many ways they could do that. but they don't. there is plenty of room for different play styles to exist.
and you have your movie analogy all wrong... if neverwinter were like a free film festival, it would be first come first serve to the seats. the longer you stay, the better your seats will be. the popcorn and cokes aren't free but are entirely optional and so are the 3D glasses, but they certainly enhance the experience. you might be able to talk during the film, but if you are too much of a distraction, you'll be ejected from the theater. after all, rules are rules. and as always, you're definitely free to leave if you aren't enjoying yourself. not everyone is going to like the movie. the writer, director and producers are well aware of that fact.