Why not require people to have less than 14k GS if they want to PVP
Constructive suggestion. A "Level 60, less than 8k gs" queue would see much more skill than an "at least 18k gs" one. Yesterday there was this low-gs CW at b2. Making clever use of his spells to avoid activating my Unstoppable. Saving his dodges. Always moving, never leaving b2. Me, terrible pvp-er, poor build. But twice his gs, I smashed him. Who here should be allowed to participate in pvp? Him of course.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Quite a few people in this thread trying to suggest that skill is more important than gear - it's not and it never will be.
+1
Not trying to suggest, making the statement that skill is more important and substantiating that statement with a logical argument. No one is offering a counter argument, only, "ehh its not true, gearz iz mawr importants!"
1) I taught a DC how to heal a dungeon in Mad Dragon. Mad. Dragon. He told me he had no experience in party play, that Mad Dragon was his first dungeon and that he honestly does not know what he is doing. I got him to change his entire rotation and told him what to use and when, using my own experience as a DC. This made a huge difference in our performance. In fact, aside from myself and one of the two HRs, the other 3 players were complete newbies in the extreme. We coached that party right to the end. Granted we had to lose one HR to kill Chartilifax (he was replaced by my guildie GWF), but we done it.
2) After witnessing 2 of my teammates absolutely trash talk the 8.5k DC in my party I told them off for attacking him when it is the game's fault that he has been paired with us. The rest of us were 12k+, by the way. After the match I gave the DC tips on how he could improve himself on the cheap via the AH. I transferred to his instance and found him by the mailbox near the AH in PE, inspected him and saw that he was wearing high regen-defense blues I told him to look for and he had even purchased Grand Priest's Rings and slotted them with R5 Radiants. Pushed his GS over 10k and had greatly improved his defensive stats. I also advised him to move more (I've even PM'd enemies I've killed in PVP and told them to move because they made it too easy for me).
I'm not saying you are, but there are faaaar too many 133tz in this game that think every player should know the ins and outs of everything. There are lowbies all over, people still learning and often times learning the hard way. Hell, I had to buy purple gear for my DC (my first toon) because I thought this game was impossible and couldn't finish a T2.
If you don't want to be exposed to lowbies then queue as a premade.
My point exactly... What if instead of the DC listening to you... They took it as an insult and decided to make a post on the forums about it... Welcome to the PVP world!!
Just wondering, if you get a group full of 8.3gs new players who don't know how to play their class in spell plague, do you get frustrated and leave dungeon or do you keep trying until you finish it?
It's clearly intended that everyone can do PVP, otherwise PW would have added a GS requirement like with the dungeons, or for IWD. Also, 10k GS or even 12k (the later isn't easy to reach for some classes, CW gets a lot less stats somehow, so you need several 100k even after getting full T2) doesn'T mean anything aganst people using perfect soulforged and greater vorpal and plaguefire and with 2000 tenacity or whatever. Sure, you might survive one or two hits instead of dying instantly, but you die.
Why not require people to have less than 14k GS if they want to PVP, so everyone has a chance? Kinda stupid, too, but at least it would not be an elite club and enjoyable for a greater part of the player base.
The better solution would be for PW to better (or at all?) sort people according to GS and other stats (it's tracking everything after all, even whether you kileld a melee or ranged char). If it would even remember that player x performs better when player y is in the match, too, it could even sort those groups according to the expected performance. Not impossible, just a matter of tracking stats accordingly. Seeing the current state of matchmaking, it's unlikely we will ever see something like this, but GS etc. would be a start..
That would just encourage people to not spend loads of money on the game so they can stay below that GS limit. You're correct for some people it takes work to get high gs (CW,TR) but for others it's really easy (GWF)
i would play how you want to play and take in-game criticisms with a grain of salt. if someone is being a jerk, which is not uncommon in pvp zone chat or pvp chat in general, then just ignore them. the guy that asked you that at one point had to have 8k GS and if he wanted to pvp, then i'm sure he pvp'd. you're obviously going to work on getting better gear, building up your glory points, etc. so... i wouldn't let any of that bother you. you can also turn off zone/party chat while pvping. just eliminate the noise all together.
as for GS based matchmaking... here's a recent post from the great panderus:
First off, its important to understand that the person working on Tiefling tail animations or haircuts is not the same person who will adjust basically anything on class powers or PvP balance. An animator or character artist will rarely if ever do anything design related, they are all different skillsets, talents and procedures on how to get them into the game.
Also, many of these issues are not simple and require time, resources, testing and finally more time and testing.
Armor Penetration - Yea, this isn't ideal and we aren't a fan either. However, it takes a good amount of work to not only fix everything, but then bring down the current damage levels to compensate for this. ArPen isn't worthless in most cases and powers deal about the damage we want them to. It takes a long time to make a new class, it also takes a long time to make these sorts of sweeping changes.
PvP Elo - There is. GS is not a factor on purpose, as gear will help you do better and thusly get a better skill rating. Its also not the end all of winning a match, point control is much more important. Depending on the time of the day, there may not be enough people in the queue to get a good rating match with. We are monitoring this and are considering adjusting things, but we dont want queue times to increase too much. Finally, premade vs premade: Players who do premades will win more often, giving them a better skill value, which means they are more likley to play against other premades and highly skilled (and likley geared) players.
Guardian Fighters in PvP - I don't believe they are "nearly useless in PvP" at all. They can be VERY hard to kill and can hold a point for LONG periods of time by themselves.
Hunter Rangers - We made a lot of changes in Preview and we hope they are in a better place than they were before. Split Shot and a few other powers were just too powerful to even need anything else. We are keeping an eye on things.
Class Equality - Things in a game will never be completely equal for all things for all classes. We try our best, but it can have some severe diminishing returns for its worth.
Open PvP - The Heroic Encounter has been broken until today, well see if that can lure some more PvE centric players in there. We'll see.
Post Domination Fighting - This was a bug that allowed players to grief others and cause injuries. We should support dueling in a more appropriate manner. There is another post about this as well.
I hope that helped put some light onto why things arent just always fixed as quickly as you (or myself) would like them to. There is always a tangled web of player desires vs what we have time to realistically implement for the fullest effect.
Not trying to suggest, making the statement that skill is more important and substantiating that statement with a logical argument. No one is offering a counter argument, only, "ehh its not true, gearz iz mawr importants!"
The unfortunate truth is that many people don't realize that gear IS part of skill.
If we compare PvP to professional fighting sports, the "skill" in PvP would be equivalet of the actual fighting technique, practiced and learned through lessons, coaching, sparring, etc..
However, what they do not realize is that in order to fight less than 10 minutes in a fight, the fighters need to train for many months, spending hours and hours everyday in order to bring their physcial conditioning to its peak. Usually more than 70% of the training for an upcoming match consists of lengthy hours of exercises, workouts, and roadwork to increase the cardios, lung capacity, muscle endurance, overall stamina, toughness and resistance to damage and pain, pure muscle strength, agility, etc etc..
People don't realize that advanced skill and technique comes through advanced physical conditioning. It doesn't matter how you can artistically hit someone with a fancy move, when you don't have enough stamina to last 3 minutes of gruelling, heart-busting, breath-gasping physical movement. Who the heck cares if you can kick someone at blinding speeds in a fancy footwork, when you don't have enough strength to actually deal damage to the opponent?
This is the what gear and spec means in PvP. Just like physical conditioning, gear takes time to progress. You need constant investment and effort to acquire the latest gear. Some people call it the "PvP arms-race" and they are exactly right. Just as professional fighters train in an "arms-race" to secure better physical for the fight, same with PvP.
Frankly, the "you won because of gear" argument some people come up with, is meaningless. It simply means whether by money, or by time and effort invested, or a mix of both, some people make sure they are as prepared as can be when they go into a fight.
Those who neglect this preparation don't deserve to complain about skill -- they aren't prepared in even the most basics of what you need in PvP. How can they complain about anything in that state of mind?
"Oooh I'm not as rich as you... I don't open my wallets... fuh fuh fuh..." :rolleyes: None of our business as to why someone comes walking into a fight with just skin and bones and zero muscle or stamina. The only thing important to anyone in this matter, is whether you are prepared to do the job, or not.
If not, no right to complain about anything. Come back when actually prepared.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i would play how you want to play and take in-game criticisms with a grain of salt. if someone is being a jerk, which is not uncommon in pvp zone chat or pvp chat in general, then just ignore them. the guy that asked you that at one point had to have 8k GS and if he wanted to pvp, then i'm sure he pvp'd. you're obviously going to work on getting better gear, building up your glory points, etc. so... i wouldn't let any of that bother you. you can also turn off zone/party chat while pvping. just eliminate the noise all together.
Seeing a mod encourage ignorance is really really really a super bad sign for this game. It means anyone with a serious competitive attitude and a disposable income to match is not welcome. Let the riff raff completely spoil the fun of the paying customers, and you might as well just say good buy this game as something that can make a profit for its makers. Like having a free movie theater but you have to pay to get the good seats, and everyone in the free seats way in the back throws pop corn and HAMSTER down on the front seats and yells and stuff through the show, and the usher comes in and says, "enjoy the movie any way you want". Really? No don't encourage f2p people to l2p, just tell them to do whatever they want. You might as well tell the rest of us, "don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out".
The quoted post is exactly the type of communication that should happen all time between players and developers. Gotta give it to panderus for taking the time to elaborate an answer, even though I might not like some of his opinions, but at least he spoke his mind.
The unfortunate truth is that many people don't realize that gear IS part of skill. If we compare PvP to a professional fighting sport, the "skill" in PvP would be equivalet of the actual fighting technique, practiced and learned through lessons, coaching, sparring, etc..
The thing is, many people only see this much. They just don't realize that in order to fight in a match that lasts what, less than 10 minutes in most fighting sports, around 30 minutes or so in boxing? Fighters train for months, many hours invested everyday in order to bring their physcial conditioning to its peak. Usually more than 70% of the training for the upcoming match consists of lengthy hours of exercises, workouts, and roadwork to increase strength and stamina.
People don't realize that advanced skill and technique comes through advanced physical conditioning. It doesn't matter how much you can artistically hit someone with a fancy move, when you don't have enough stamina to endure the 3 minutes of gruelling, heart-busting physical movement. Who the heck cares if you can kick someone at blinding speeds in a fancy footwork, when you don't have enough strength to actually deal damage?
This is the what "gear" means in PvP. Just like physical conditioning, gear takes time to progress. You need constant investment and effort to acquire the latest gear. Some people call it the "PvP arms-race" and they are exactly right. Just as professional fighters train in an "arms-race" to secure better physical for the fight, same with PvP.
Frankly, the "you won because of gear" argument some people come up with, is meaningless. It simply means whether by money, or by time/effort invested, or a mix of both, some people make sure they are as prepared as can be when they expect a fight. Those who neglect this preparation don't even deserve to complain about skill -- they aren't even ready in the most basic aspect of fighting.
"Oooh I'm not as rich as you... I don't open my wallets... fuh fuh fuh..." :rolleyes: None of our business as to why someone comes walking into a fight with just skin and bones and zero muscle or stamina. The only thing important in this matter, is whether you are prepared. If not, no right to complain about anything.
I agree with this and would ad that I even troll people in pvp for being p2win. It is just arena trash talk and nothing more. When I come on the forums I am speaking as a customer and try to put out well thought out responses or ideas. Apparently though, they don't want serious competitors willing to spend time and money because after all, everyone is encouraged to play as they want. F that there are plenty of games that take themselves a lot more seriously than that.
Seeing a mod encourage ignorance is really really really a super bad sign for this game. It means anyone with a serious competitive attitude and a disposable income to match is not welcome. Let the riff raff completely spoil the fun of the paying customers, and you might as well just say good buy this game as something that can make a profit for its makers. Like having a free movie theater but you have to pay to get the good seats, and everyone in the free seats way in the back throws pop corn and HAMSTER down on the front seats and yells and stuff through the show, and the usher comes in and says, "enjoy the movie any way you want". Really? No don't encourage f2p people to l2p, just tell them to do whatever they want. You might as well tell the rest of us, "don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out".
I agree with this and would ad that I even troll people in pvp for being p2win. It is just arena trash talk and nothing more. When I come on the forums I am speaking as a customer and try to put out well thought out responses or ideas. Apparently though, they don't want serious competitors willing to spend time and money because after all, everyone is encouraged to play as they want. F that there are plenty of games that take themselves a lot more seriously than that.
so... you're contradicting yourself here. me telling a player to play the game in a way that makes sense to him goes for both people that want to engage in trash talk and people that don't care for it. there are tools in game that allow me to disengage from it if i want to. from a marketing standpoint, if PWE wanted to limit pvp to serious competitive pvp play, there are many ways they could do that. but they don't. there is plenty of room for different play styles to exist.
and you have your movie analogy all wrong... if neverwinter were like a free film festival, it would be first come first serve to the seats. the longer you stay, the better your seats will be. the popcorn and cokes aren't free but are entirely optional and so are the 3D glasses, but they certainly enhance the experience. you might be able to talk during the film, but if you are too much of a distraction, you'll be ejected from the theater. after all, rules are rules. and as always, you're definitely free to leave if you aren't enjoying yourself. not everyone is going to like the movie. the writer, director and producers are well aware of that fact.
Well, but you are making a rule from an exception. No, most of players are not like that player you found and taught. I tryed it a lot of times myself and i only got "harsh language" from most of them. So, i want to know how many times did you quit from a dungeon due low GS AND unskilled players (which are most cases in PVP too) . And Yes, it's their right to play PVP with a low GS and being unskilled (as same as they can Q for dungeons with minimun requeriments)... as mine is not to play that match (or dungeon) which such players.
It all depends on my patience at the time and if I really need something from the dungeon and what dungeon I'm in. I'm not running CN with undergeared players, as an example, but I trust myself and my two best geared toons (DC & GF) to pull lowbies through most dungeons. Won't go fast, but those two classes, if well played, will provide a novice group with some stability.
I have quit dungeons before, but not after trying with the party I have.
Solo queue for PVP and you'll have to accept that lowbies may well join you. Solo queue a dungeon and you'll have to accept that lowbies may well join you. Do not complain about the lowbies knowing this as right now the game has no means to resolve this. Group queue if you want a fast DD run or a good PVP team.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
so... you're contradicting yourself here. me telling a player to play the game in a way that makes sense to him goes for both people that want to engage in trash talk and people that don't care for it. there are tools in game that allow me to disengage from it if i want to. from a marketing standpoint, if PWE wanted to limit pvp to serious competitive pvp play, there are many ways they could do that. but they don't. there is plenty of room for different play styles to exist.
and you have your movie analogy all wrong... if neverwinter were like a free film festival, it would be first come first serve to the seats. the longer you stay, the better your seats will be. the popcorn and cokes aren't free but are entirely optional and so are the 3D glasses, but they certainly enhance the experience. you might be able to talk during the film, but if you are too much of a distraction, you'll be ejected from the theater. after all, rules are rules. and as always, you're definitely free to leave if you aren't enjoying yourself. not everyone is going to like the movie. the writer, director and producers are well aware of that fact.
I'm glad you clarified both your own statements and that PWE does not want serious competitive gameplay. If they did they would have an area limited to such. Serious pvpers want a section that is limited to serious competitive gameplay. That they are not getting this despite begging for it for a long time, and that they apparently, officially, will never get it, I think comes as a disappointment to many. Why the heck would anyone put hundreds of dollars into a game or grind for thousands and thousands of dollars worth of game/work hours if they thought that serious competitive gameplay was simply off the table as an option for PWE? That is what I mean. "Do as you wish"...whether it is to troll ~~and NO ONE likes being trolled~~ or to suffer through the incompetence and lack of investment of others ~~and no one wants to suffer through that either. But do as you want. I see where you are coming from and your not in a great position, given the current state of the game, to really moderate between those who want serious competitive game play and those who do not want to be trolled.
That both happen and likely will continue to happen is bad juju. That has to be obvious.
I'm with thestaggy, here. If I'm in a party for a dungeon, then I'm up for trying to finish it (no matter what the party composition is), as long as the rest of the party is. Sometimes you'll all eventually admit defeat, but you generally learn and/or teach something in the process.
And sometimes you'll surprise yourself: I've had quite a few dungeons where one person lost hope and quit, but the remaining 4 of us managed to complete it. Sometimes it can be as simple as "try switching that skill out for this one".
People used to do spellplague back in beta with min GS, and it was harder, god yes, but you could still finish it (even without stacking CWs and punting dudes into goop).
Much the same rationale can be applied to PvP.
Also, why do people keep using SP as the benchmark for ZOMG 2 HARD RAEG QUIT dungeons? I'd nominate EDV for that. If, you know, anyone ever went to that horrible place....
First of all, any GS should be able to play PVP as long as he or she want to win, not just to finish daily. In general it is true that 8k or 9k GS is undergeared in PVP, but I think the matchmaking is somehow working maybe not perfectly. And you don't get 8k or 9k teammates all the time. It could be someone just hit 60, why so harsh to them.
The second GS is not everyting, you need effective GS, skills and right tactics in PVP. A 8k GS player could be better than a 11k GS player. People are just too obsessive about GS, especialy when you are not so rich. Some cheap blue Gears are much better for PVP than some trash epic with the high GS. Push players new to PVP to just upgrade their GS is misleading.
First of all, any GS should be able to play PVP as long as he or she want to win, not just to finish daily. In general it is true that 8k or 9k GS is undergeared in PVP, but I think the matchmaking is somehow working maybe not perfectly. And you don't get 8k or 9k teammates all the time. It could be someone just hit 60, why so harsh to them.
The second GS is not everyting, you need effective GS, skills and right tactics in PVP. A 8k GS player could be better than a 11k GS player. People are just too obsessive about GS, especialy when you are not so rich. Some cheap blue Gears are much better for PVP than some trash epic with the high GS. Push players new to PVP to just upgrade their GS is misleading.
Yep, anyone should be able to pvp. I log on broken lvl 60's that I started with in the 'way back just to see how different updates are affecting their performance. It upsets people like me (when im on my main) who take it seriously because I am just doing the daily or trying something out. Anyone should be able to pvp. In unranked matches. There are no ranked matches so yes anyone can pvp. There needs to be a ladder and ranked matches and unranked matches. Period.
I'm glad you clarified both your own statements and that PWE does not want serious competitive gameplay. If they did they would have an area limited to such. Serious pvpers want a section that is limited to serious competitive gameplay. That they are not getting this despite begging for it for a long time, and that they apparently, officially, will never get it, I think comes as a disappointment to many. Why the heck would anyone put hundreds of dollars into a game or grind for thousands and thousands of dollars worth of game/work hours if they thought that serious competitive gameplay was simply off the table as an option for PWE? That is what I mean. "Do as you wish"...whether it is to troll ~~and NO ONE likes being trolled~~ or to suffer through the incompetence and lack of investment of others ~~and no one wants to suffer through that either. But do as you want. I see where you are coming from and your not in a great position, given the current state of the game, to really moderate between those who want serious competitive game play and those who do not want to be trolled.
That both happen and likely will continue to happen is bad juju. That has to be obvious.
To answer that question, I think the majority comes from persons who prefer a nice PvE experience. Only few players strive for "serious competitive gameplay" as there are too many factors to make it "serious". The word "game" and "serious" are not really the best friends. Especially in a game designed for PvE. But that is only my opinion.
The problem with roleplaying PVP is gear. Always has been, always will be. Nothing more frustrating than outplaying someone only to be smashed because they had better pixels. You made the right moves, had the right rotation, but your toon hits like a 2 year old. With that said, I would love to see a mode where it strips you down to a zero GS. May the best naked PVPER win!
Yes, I understand gearing is a big part of a MMO, its the carrot that keeps people playing. Carry harder, QQ more!
To answer that question, I think the majority comes from persons who prefer a nice PvE experience. Only few players strive for "serious competitive gameplay" as there are too many factors to make it "serious". The word "game" and "serious" are not really the best friends. Especially in a game designed for PvE. But that is only my opinion.
I get that its your opinion and appreciate you saying that, this is all my opinion also. As far as the words serious and game not going together, I am sure all of the billionaires, millionaires, and the many tens of thousands more of middle class employees, and many millions, billions of fans of the World Cup, NFL, MBL, NBA, NHL would tend to really disagree.
I'm not sure Neverwinter is designed exclusively for pve. IWD would seem to say absolutely not. Really we are waiting for what kind of reaction, if any, the devs have to the problems enumerated in multiple places concerning pvp, to really find out.
The problem with roleplaying PVP is gear. Always has been, always will be. Nothing more frustrating than outplaying someone only to be smashed because they had better pixels. You made the right moves, had the right rotation, but your toon hits like a 2 year old. With that said, I would love to see a mode where it strips you down to a zero GS. May the best naked PVPER win!
Yes, I understand gearing is a big part of a MMO, its the carrot that keeps people playing. Carry harder, QQ more!
You know, the funny thing is that you can actually both outgear and outplay someone and they still beat you simply because they have a better build. So it is more complicated than just gearz vs skillz. Also, yes, there is much merriment and lollery in a drunken stomp wearing literally nothing but unicorn heads and yelling to the other teams, "kill me first, me me kill me!".
Having a TR myself I know how hard SC can be. So in this case if he does play like that, I'd give him pointers on how to improve and stay out of trouble. Same thing as in PvP though: If he's there to troll, he'll learn that testing my patience isn't the best thing to do. But as long as he's willing to learn, I have no objection. What's the worst thing that can happen? We wipe? So what? We'll try again and figure out a way to compensate for his weakness in dmg. Sometimes it cannot be done. So be it. I'll do another run.
So you will stay in the game on account that the person will:
A. Listen respectfully to your teachings
B. Actually follow it
I get that its your opinion and appreciate you saying that, this is all my opinion also. As far as the words serious and game not going together, I am sure all of the billionaires, millionaires, and the many tens of thousands more of middle class employees, and many millions, billions of fans of the World Cup, NFL, MBL, NBA, NHL would tend to really disagree.
I'm not sure Neverwinter is designed exclusively for pve. IWD would seem to say absolutely not. Really we are waiting for what kind of reaction, if any, the devs have to the problems enumerated in multiple places concerning pvp, to really find out.
In "competitive games" you have leagues and classes and *agreed matches*
In this game Hulk Hogan is put in a ring against Elmer. And no one is interested in this.
As for your comparison of the millions of fans and investors, these are called "games" for those who do not recognize that they are being played and used, manipulated and deceived. These so called games are industries (see "olympic games" where the sport is way less important than the sponsors). Neverwinter is an industry as well, but I play it as a game, not for personal gain. I do not get paid, and if I don't perform good in Neverwinter I won't starve.
"A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool. Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more often an expression of aesthetic or ideological elements." (wikipedia about "game")
The players you see on TV are not players. They are paid actors that perform on stage.
You going out with a mate playing soccer in the backyard, there you play a game.
But I play this game for my amusement. I don't have to win everything. None of my characters are 100% maxed out either in stats or in gear /enchantments. My PvP consists mainly of PuGs and semi premade because I have absolutely no desire to join a PvP guild. I don't care if I win or lose, as long as I had fun trying. I don't see why people have so much trouble with this way of thinking. Why do you have to have to have the best in 20 seconds? Why do people work the AH 24/7? Why give up on a match because it's not living up to your expectations? It's a game people. Not real life. Don't act like it is.
If you can't accept the occasional lowbie in your team, regardless of PvP or PvE, why are you playing MMORPGs? Aren't you better off playing CoD? I'm serious. That wasn't sarcasm this time. It's a genuine question:
If people hate having no control over who they are fighting with and against, why not play a PvP game where you have such control? MMORPGs will always disappoint you when it comes to PvP. Every single one has it, but it'll never be as optimized as, say, a CoD server would be. Nor would anyone try to nerf your class just because it's too strong in PvE.
Well said and totally agreed with your comments. I would like to add one more comment, everyone started as a newbie including myself. We need to give them chance to learn from their experience.
For those that oppose having low GS players in the group, like some of the other players has mentioned in this threat, blame the matching system and not the players.
Note: I am the last active members in my guild and I did 100% of my PvP with PUG. For 5 v 5, sometimes I win and sometimes I lost, for 20 v 20 (GG), as a Luskan, I lost most of the time. But I still continue to PvP and enjoy it.
hmm i have a tr 10k but was going up against 18k's in pvp when i was 7k pvp isnt just about gs sure you survive longer with a good gs but you can still win with a bad score if your smart
hmm i have a tr 10k but was going up against 18k's in pvp when i was 7k pvp isnt just about gs sure you survive longer with a good gs but you can still win with a bad score if your smart
Yeah, it is tough to play against a better geared opponents but not impossible to beat them.
Comments
Constructive suggestion. A "Level 60, less than 8k gs" queue would see much more skill than an "at least 18k gs" one. Yesterday there was this low-gs CW at b2. Making clever use of his spells to avoid activating my Unstoppable. Saving his dodges. Always moving, never leaving b2. Me, terrible pvp-er, poor build. But twice his gs, I smashed him. Who here should be allowed to participate in pvp? Him of course.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Jugger Conq GF
....
My point exactly... What if instead of the DC listening to you... They took it as an insult and decided to make a post on the forums about it... Welcome to the PVP world!!
That would just encourage people to not spend loads of money on the game so they can stay below that GS limit. You're correct for some people it takes work to get high gs (CW,TR) but for others it's really easy (GWF)
as for GS based matchmaking... here's a recent post from the great panderus:
The unfortunate truth is that many people don't realize that gear IS part of skill.
If we compare PvP to professional fighting sports, the "skill" in PvP would be equivalet of the actual fighting technique, practiced and learned through lessons, coaching, sparring, etc..
However, what they do not realize is that in order to fight less than 10 minutes in a fight, the fighters need to train for many months, spending hours and hours everyday in order to bring their physcial conditioning to its peak. Usually more than 70% of the training for an upcoming match consists of lengthy hours of exercises, workouts, and roadwork to increase the cardios, lung capacity, muscle endurance, overall stamina, toughness and resistance to damage and pain, pure muscle strength, agility, etc etc..
People don't realize that advanced skill and technique comes through advanced physical conditioning. It doesn't matter how you can artistically hit someone with a fancy move, when you don't have enough stamina to last 3 minutes of gruelling, heart-busting, breath-gasping physical movement. Who the heck cares if you can kick someone at blinding speeds in a fancy footwork, when you don't have enough strength to actually deal damage to the opponent?
This is the what gear and spec means in PvP. Just like physical conditioning, gear takes time to progress. You need constant investment and effort to acquire the latest gear. Some people call it the "PvP arms-race" and they are exactly right. Just as professional fighters train in an "arms-race" to secure better physical for the fight, same with PvP.
Frankly, the "you won because of gear" argument some people come up with, is meaningless. It simply means whether by money, or by time and effort invested, or a mix of both, some people make sure they are as prepared as can be when they go into a fight.
Those who neglect this preparation don't deserve to complain about skill -- they aren't prepared in even the most basics of what you need in PvP. How can they complain about anything in that state of mind?
"Oooh I'm not as rich as you... I don't open my wallets... fuh fuh fuh..." :rolleyes: None of our business as to why someone comes walking into a fight with just skin and bones and zero muscle or stamina. The only thing important to anyone in this matter, is whether you are prepared to do the job, or not.
If not, no right to complain about anything. Come back when actually prepared.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Seeing a mod encourage ignorance is really really really a super bad sign for this game. It means anyone with a serious competitive attitude and a disposable income to match is not welcome. Let the riff raff completely spoil the fun of the paying customers, and you might as well just say good buy this game as something that can make a profit for its makers. Like having a free movie theater but you have to pay to get the good seats, and everyone in the free seats way in the back throws pop corn and HAMSTER down on the front seats and yells and stuff through the show, and the usher comes in and says, "enjoy the movie any way you want". Really? No don't encourage f2p people to l2p, just tell them to do whatever they want. You might as well tell the rest of us, "don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out".
Jugger Conq GF
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The quoted post is exactly the type of communication that should happen all time between players and developers. Gotta give it to panderus for taking the time to elaborate an answer, even though I might not like some of his opinions, but at least he spoke his mind.
Jugger Conq GF
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so... you're contradicting yourself here. me telling a player to play the game in a way that makes sense to him goes for both people that want to engage in trash talk and people that don't care for it. there are tools in game that allow me to disengage from it if i want to. from a marketing standpoint, if PWE wanted to limit pvp to serious competitive pvp play, there are many ways they could do that. but they don't. there is plenty of room for different play styles to exist.
and you have your movie analogy all wrong... if neverwinter were like a free film festival, it would be first come first serve to the seats. the longer you stay, the better your seats will be. the popcorn and cokes aren't free but are entirely optional and so are the 3D glasses, but they certainly enhance the experience. you might be able to talk during the film, but if you are too much of a distraction, you'll be ejected from the theater. after all, rules are rules. and as always, you're definitely free to leave if you aren't enjoying yourself. not everyone is going to like the movie. the writer, director and producers are well aware of that fact.
It all depends on my patience at the time and if I really need something from the dungeon and what dungeon I'm in. I'm not running CN with undergeared players, as an example, but I trust myself and my two best geared toons (DC & GF) to pull lowbies through most dungeons. Won't go fast, but those two classes, if well played, will provide a novice group with some stability.
I have quit dungeons before, but not after trying with the party I have.
Solo queue for PVP and you'll have to accept that lowbies may well join you. Solo queue a dungeon and you'll have to accept that lowbies may well join you. Do not complain about the lowbies knowing this as right now the game has no means to resolve this. Group queue if you want a fast DD run or a good PVP team.
I'm glad you clarified both your own statements and that PWE does not want serious competitive gameplay. If they did they would have an area limited to such. Serious pvpers want a section that is limited to serious competitive gameplay. That they are not getting this despite begging for it for a long time, and that they apparently, officially, will never get it, I think comes as a disappointment to many. Why the heck would anyone put hundreds of dollars into a game or grind for thousands and thousands of dollars worth of game/work hours if they thought that serious competitive gameplay was simply off the table as an option for PWE? That is what I mean. "Do as you wish"...whether it is to troll ~~and NO ONE likes being trolled~~ or to suffer through the incompetence and lack of investment of others ~~and no one wants to suffer through that either. But do as you want. I see where you are coming from and your not in a great position, given the current state of the game, to really moderate between those who want serious competitive game play and those who do not want to be trolled.
That both happen and likely will continue to happen is bad juju. That has to be obvious.
Jugger Conq GF
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And sometimes you'll surprise yourself: I've had quite a few dungeons where one person lost hope and quit, but the remaining 4 of us managed to complete it. Sometimes it can be as simple as "try switching that skill out for this one".
People used to do spellplague back in beta with min GS, and it was harder, god yes, but you could still finish it (even without stacking CWs and punting dudes into goop).
Much the same rationale can be applied to PvP.
Also, why do people keep using SP as the benchmark for ZOMG 2 HARD RAEG QUIT dungeons? I'd nominate EDV for that. If, you know, anyone ever went to that horrible place....
The second GS is not everyting, you need effective GS, skills and right tactics in PVP. A 8k GS player could be better than a 11k GS player. People are just too obsessive about GS, especialy when you are not so rich. Some cheap blue Gears are much better for PVP than some trash epic with the high GS. Push players new to PVP to just upgrade their GS is misleading.
Join the Greycloaks
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician
Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
Yep, anyone should be able to pvp. I log on broken lvl 60's that I started with in the 'way back just to see how different updates are affecting their performance. It upsets people like me (when im on my main) who take it seriously because I am just doing the daily or trying something out. Anyone should be able to pvp. In unranked matches. There are no ranked matches so yes anyone can pvp. There needs to be a ladder and ranked matches and unranked matches. Period.
Jugger Conq GF
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Yes, I understand gearing is a big part of a MMO, its the carrot that keeps people playing. Carry harder, QQ more!
I get that its your opinion and appreciate you saying that, this is all my opinion also. As far as the words serious and game not going together, I am sure all of the billionaires, millionaires, and the many tens of thousands more of middle class employees, and many millions, billions of fans of the World Cup, NFL, MBL, NBA, NHL would tend to really disagree.
I'm not sure Neverwinter is designed exclusively for pve. IWD would seem to say absolutely not. Really we are waiting for what kind of reaction, if any, the devs have to the problems enumerated in multiple places concerning pvp, to really find out.
Jugger Conq GF
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You know, the funny thing is that you can actually both outgear and outplay someone and they still beat you simply because they have a better build. So it is more complicated than just gearz vs skillz. Also, yes, there is much merriment and lollery in a drunken stomp wearing literally nothing but unicorn heads and yelling to the other teams, "kill me first, me me kill me!".
Jugger Conq GF
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So you will stay in the game on account that the person will:
A. Listen respectfully to your teachings
B. Actually follow it
Yeah good luck with that in PVP.
In "competitive games" you have leagues and classes and *agreed matches*
In this game Hulk Hogan is put in a ring against Elmer. And no one is interested in this.
As for your comparison of the millions of fans and investors, these are called "games" for those who do not recognize that they are being played and used, manipulated and deceived. These so called games are industries (see "olympic games" where the sport is way less important than the sponsors). Neverwinter is an industry as well, but I play it as a game, not for personal gain. I do not get paid, and if I don't perform good in Neverwinter I won't starve.
"A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool. Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more often an expression of aesthetic or ideological elements." (wikipedia about "game")
The players you see on TV are not players. They are paid actors that perform on stage.
You going out with a mate playing soccer in the backyard, there you play a game.
Well said and totally agreed with your comments. I would like to add one more comment, everyone started as a newbie including myself. We need to give them chance to learn from their experience.
For those that oppose having low GS players in the group, like some of the other players has mentioned in this threat, blame the matching system and not the players.
Note: I am the last active members in my guild and I did 100% of my PvP with PUG. For 5 v 5, sometimes I win and sometimes I lost, for 20 v 20 (GG), as a Luskan, I lost most of the time. But I still continue to PvP and enjoy it.
Ebony (Whisperknife)
Yeah, it is tough to play against a better geared opponents but not impossible to beat them.
Ebony (Whisperknife)