[IMO] The best way to face a Perma-Stealth issue is as easy as hell: Instead of reducing his/her stealth bar a misserable 10% per hit, do the stealth go away at 2nd hit in a 2 secs-window [PvP only].
Other option would be to increase the range of the Lantern's scope to 25 feet or reducing its CD to 3 secs if you do not detect a unit with it.
Maybe make all classes deal 99% of his HP if he's caught in stealth and remove him from such!
:O
Such good Idea, get out dude, its not even funny that you troll in my thread.
[IMO] The best way to face a Perma-Stealth issue is as easy as hell: Instead of reducing his/her stealth bar a misserable 10% per hit, do the stealth go away at 2nd hit in a 2 secs-window [PvP only].
Other option would be to increase the range of the Lantern's scope to 25 feet or reducing its CD to 3 secs if you do not detect a unit with it.
That doesn't solve any of the problems revolving around TRs. Neutering stealth, as it is, simply just pushes the game to the opposite extreme where all TRs are practically rendered into a coma-state. TRs are too powerful while in stealth, but too vulerable while not at stealth. Currently their builds allow them to be in stealth 80~100% of the time. If that's changed without a redesign of the TR, they'll simply be fodder for 80~100% of the time.
The only real solution is a partial/total redesign of the class so its stealth is limited, becomes much more visible much more often, but at the compensation of given some major changes to exisiting encounters/at-wills and their effects to increase combat worthiness while out of stealth.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That doesn't solve any of the problems revolving around TRs. Neutering stealth, as it is, simply just pushes the game to the opposite extreme where all TRs are practically rendered into a coma-state. TRs are too powerful while in stealth, but too vulerable while not at stealth. Currently their builds allow them to be in stealth 80~100% of the time. If that's changed without a redesign of the TR, they'll simply be fodder for 80~100% of the time.
The only real solution is a partial/total redesign of the class so its stealth is limited, becomes much more visible much more often, but at the compensation of given some major changes to exisiting encounters/at-wills and their effects to increase combat worthiness while out of stealth.
Personally I'd like to see them make Stealth a stance change like the HR, with each stance modifying the effects of attacks and utilities. That way you could limit the ability to deal damage in stealth while offering some utility/defence bonuses.
The only real solution is a partial/total redesign of the class so its stealth is limited, becomes much more visible much more often, but at the compensation of given some major changes to existing encounters/at-wills and their effects to increase combat worthiness while out of stealth.
Completely truth, even the paragon feats of the scoundrel are a disaster, that line should be more defensive. How come since we got the best deflection severity, dont' have any line of feats that give us more deflection chance, like the rangers combatant three?,instead, we have 2 trees coz one of them is totally useless. Example of how i think (i might be wrong) this should be approached:
. Saboteur seems to be more tactical, buff and debuff (making your enemy slower if you crit while you become faster) plus some tools to extend and improve mobility and re-positioning while stealth
. Executioner wich is more offensive/dps and but also gives some other tools ( extra 5% of crit for you and your party. increase the crit severty etc)
. Scoundrel should be more defensive/deflection based, like, more deflection chance against cc, or more deflection while you're cc'ed (at least you will have a better chance of survival if you deflect while your are prone/chocked/frozen etc). All that line does is buffing powers and give more damage while you leave stealth, this line should be aimed for improve your survivability out of stealth
I insist, if they wanna take away stealth, please do so(i don't care about permas) but before, re-work the stats of the armors that push you towards perma-stealth, re-work some of the power wich are a waste of points (wicked reminder,), and give other options, or better ways to escape from control,
For pve, well, all The dungeons need a re-work, why not putting traps that are able to kill characters or may be the entire party, why not putting traps in the minibosses and bosses areas, shortcuts secret areas worth exploring, like every D&D game in existence, let's see if anyone want to enter a dungeon without a rogue, (again, this guys might have never touch a D&D book in their lives)
Completely truth, even the paragon feats of the scoundrel are a disaster, that line should be more defensive. How come since we got the best deflection severity, dont' have any line of feats that give us more deflection chance, like the rangers combatant three?,instead, we have 2 trees coz one of them is totally useless. Example of how i think (i might be wrong) this should be approached:
. Saboteur seems to be more tactical, buff and debuff (making your enemy slower if you crit while you become faster) plus some tools to extend and improve mobility and re-positioning while stealth
. Executioner wich is more offensive/dps and but also gives some other tools ( extra 5% of crit for you and your party. increase the crit severty etc)
. Scoundrel should be more defensive/deflection based, like, more deflection chance against cc, or more deflection while you're cc'ed (at least you will have a better chance of survival if you deflect while your are prone/chocked/frozen etc). All that line does is buffing powers and give more damage while you leave stealth, this line should be aimed for improve your survivability out of stealth
I insist, if they wanna take away stealth, please do so(i don't care about permas) but before, re-work the stats of the armors that push you towards perma-stealth, re-work some of the power wich are a waste of points (wicked reminder,), and give other options, or better ways to escape from control,
For pve, well, all The dungeons need a re-work, why not putting traps that are able to kill characters or may be the entire party, why not putting traps in the minibosses and bosses areas, shortcuts secret areas worth exploring, like every D&D game in existence, let's see if anyone want to enter a dungeon without a rogue, (again, this guys might have never touch a D&D book in their lives)
i agree completely
i have always thought it was weird that not a single paragon feat was defensive despite the huge amount of deflect rogues have.
as for the traps, we can't really remove them in combat and once the fighting ends, there is no point anymore.
no, they can't remove stealth, it's teh core mechanic of the class.they can remove PERMA stealth, I'd have no trouble with that. But a rogue without stealth is like a wizard without magic, or a cleric without heals.
no, they can't remove stealth, it's teh core mechanic of the class.they can remove PERMA stealth, I'd have no trouble with that. But a rogue without stealth is like a wizard without magic, or a cleric without heals.
Clerics are pretty bad at healing themselves in PvP.
no, they can't remove stealth, it's teh core mechanic of the class.they can remove PERMA stealth, I'd have no trouble with that. But a rogue without stealth is like a wizard without magic, or a cleric without heals.
I'm sorry, wrong choice of words there, , i was really frustrated, tried to keep my head cool, but in the end i kinda lost it ^^U, but, yes, your are right
what i really meant is, if they're going to nerf the stealth, at least they should give something in return,(as you stated some posts ago) all they do, is taking away. And the worst, all the post about TR... and no a single reply from devs, a word, anything
I should come here and post a screenshot of the first 10 pages from the PvP leaderboard, it's actually pollued with TRs and GWFs (as expected).
They are more TRs and GWF in the first 10 pages than GFs in the entire leaderboard.
this whiny thread is a joke.
this "whiny" thread is about showing the devs that their efforts in nerfing the PVP TR is not working, and instead it just makes the class utterly useless in PVE.
I'm mainly a PVP TR so i'm usually fine with it. but I really pity PVE TR players, it's practically impossible for them to get a group at end-game.
Even PVP TR's need to do some T2 dungeons for gear (like fallen/fomorian weapons)…
all and all, i'd hate for them to nerf perma, since i've worked really hard acquiring the skill to play it. and it's really good. BUT on the other hand, it's annoying being the worst PVE class (a specially when you have a 5-player team in a 6-class game)
And then tell me what's the problem with it? Are Trs actually mad because they feel like having only one viable build in end game PvP? It allows you to survive more than any other character, to escape impossible situations where even the best tanks in the game would die. No other char can trick out a complete team at a cap and win the game.
It's time for you to realize that this game is very minimalist in term of possible and viable builds in PvP. You have to follow the trend if you want to stay competitive. A quick and simple example from the module 3; GWFs sent have been nerfed to hell, every GWF I know turned destroyer because it's their only viable option if they want to stay truly competitive but it doesn't mean it's '' whiny thread worthy '', of course no, it's actually stronger than sent now.
This kind of thread overshadow the true imbalances in PvP simply because they are more TRs than any other class in the game. (And yet, if they were so underpowered, why would they be so many Trs everywhere?)
The leaderboard is a perfect illustration to statistically demonstraste the imbalance and a rational proof over your nonsense semantic debate.
And then tell me what's the problem with it? Are Trs actually mad because they feel like having only one viable build in end game PvP? It allows you to survive more than any other character, to escape impossible situations where even the best tanks in the game would die. No other char can trick out a complete team at a cap and win the game.
It's time for you to realize that this game is very minimalist in term of possible and viable builds in PvP. You have to follow the trend if you want to stay competitive. A quick and simple example from the module 3; GWFs sent have been nerfed to hell, every GWF I know turned destroyer because it's their only viable option if they want to stay truly competitive but it doesn't mean it's '' whiny thread worthy '', of course no, it's actually stronger than sent now.
This kind of thread overshadow the true imbalances in PvP simply because they are more TRs than any other class in the game. (And yet, if they were so underpowered, why would they be so many Trs everywhere?)
The leaderboard is a perfect illustration to statistically demonstraste the imbalance and a rational proof over your nonsense semantic debate.
if you didn't know, permas are going to be nerfed soon. only thing we are waiting on is a more specific date than "after mod 3."
and we are underpowered as the only dps skills they still have not nerfed are duelist flurry, courage breaker, and whirlwind of blades (blitz/wicked reminder are already weak and dazing is easily dodged).
by competitive, do you mean the top 1-5%. if so, then that's your opinion. i personally think sent gwf's are still strong, just more on-par with everyone else and the destroyers who respecced barely became squishier anyways. same rule still applies, can't attack during unstoppable.
combat rogues , however, are not on par with other classes in terms of dps or reliable burst due to all the nerfs. everyone else has reliable burst except for rogues and perma only does well because they can be untouchable potentially. our only 2 cc is more of a support/stall tactic rather than for ensuring our own kills (although inexperienced people may not run quick enough from a flurry after being dazed)
GWFs are proning through ITC as well now since mod3. And they added an execute feature to IBS when they took it away from SE, I've personally seen 25k IBS's done to me on my 15k gs TR and 16k gs HR.
TR's are highly demonized because being slowly chipped at from stealth is annoying, but trust us TR's when we say that it is our only option and we'd like others.
My 2 cents, nerf or remove shadow strike (replace it with something else)
Fix SE back to 80% of what it used to be
Fix Impact shot
Fix Lashing to do less but not be the easiest power in the game to dodge
Balance WK's to have viability
all and all, i'd hate for them to nerf perma, since i've worked really hard acquiring the skill to play it
Joke of the year...
Been playing pvp games for over 15 years and never seen or heared of any other game that allowes you to attack and receive damage and still maintain invisibility.
You worked hard ... i am almost at loss of words how to describe the utter failiure in allowing such a redicules feat in pvp.
Most realize this and want tr to have other things that makes the competitive in pvp like more survivability more dam etc etc.
When you pug and face a team with 3 perma hide tr that know how to play and have deacent to good gear it becomes all to obvious how stupid this build is.
Skill its an insult to other players to call something that allowes you fight when you want and escape when you want wihtout about any risk what so ever.
Jeeeeeeez in all games you can pvp you found the only class that can fight and recieve dam and still stay inviss and you talk about working hard .... its mindblowing
0
avwdMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
I play a nice geared pve-skilled TR...might call it combat-TR.My whole build is based on high power(7,5k) and high crits(50%) the rest ist fine also..but last time i did Spellplague one of those mighty mighty GWF`s-who became even mightier with mod 3-really sended me on the
adds with the rest of the group.A remarkable moment in my playtime.Not all TR are interested in pvp,but its seems to be the last reservation.Yet more TR will change to permas and join pvp before finally leaving this game.I was amazed of this game but the missing balance made it a simple hack and slay imho.
The devs took us everything,even formerly outstanding single-damage.E.G.i was able to tank Syndrith in ToS without any problems.Kept aggro all the time and could position her suitable for the group...now if there is any skillfull or well-geared GWF around guess what happens...Oh and I don`t want to talk about finding a group for DD or GG thats done and TR is dead.See u in another better
balanced mmoRPG..or in Trickster-Hell/Heaven.
Hello again,
I've been thinking alot and I think I got an idea to improve the DPS in dungeons!
So... TR's are not very wanted because they are single target oriented and only shine on bosses, on wich there are only 3 and for that matter, dont really improve Dungeon clearing.
What if we add to "Smoke Bomb" something like... every enemy in the area would take 50% of your weapon damage every half a second they are in the area of effect, now remember, this is an important skill for many dungeons where there are alot of mobs! BUT It only has a 3 second duration at max rank AND it would also add a better use for Stealth mode of that skill, to make them slow and be in the area taking damage more time (this would not be able to crit)
Lets imagine your Weapon Damage is 492 + 492 = 984 + about 25% in power on average = 1230 Damage Every second *3 = 3690 Damage Total
Now remember, with the PVP defences this would be reduced to almost useless in damage, but in PVE, I find myself using this alot and imagine there were 10 mobs in average in that area of effect (in Fronzen Heart is much worse) that is like 36900! Now lets say you're constantly using it and hitting targets and you use it about 40 times (its not hard at all, lets just say that because of mob defences and mob count).
Now thats about 1476000, that's a real improvement right there! With this, TR's could finally make the difference without making it OP for PVP!
Anyone else with me on this?
EDIT: I am not in game, so tell me if those weapon damage are not correct for T2, thanks.
This nerf only hurts people playing against rogues. Instead of them killing one person instantly, they take 3 down to low health with whirlwind of blades.
As to why they keep doing this to rogues, imagine a class that's so strong that everytime they nerf you, the class just switches to something even more powerful.
Hello again,
I've been thinking alot and I think I got an idea to improve the DPS in dungeons!
So... TR's are not very wanted because they are single target oriented and only shine on bosses, on wich there are only 3 and for that matter, dont really improve Dungeon clearing.
What if we add to "Smoke Bomb" something like... every enemy in the area would take 50% of your weapon damage every half a second they are in the area of effect, now remember, this is an important skill for many dungeons where there are alot of mobs! BUT It only has a 3 second duration at max rank AND it would also add a better use for Stealth mode of that skill, to make them slow and be in the area taking damage more time (this would not be able to crit)
Lets imagine your Weapon Damage is 492 + 492 = 984 + about 25% in power on average = 1230 Damage Every second *3 = 3690 Damage Total
Now remember, with the PVP defences this would be reduced to almost useless in damage, but in PVE, I find myself using this alot and imagine there were 10 mobs in average in that area of effect (in Fronzen Heart is much worse) that is like 36900! Now lets say you're constantly using it and hitting targets and you use it about 40 times (its not hard at all, lets just say that because of mob defences and mob count).
Now thats about 1476000, that's a real improvement right there! With this, TR's could finally make the difference without making it OP for PVP!
Anyone else with me on this?
EDIT: I am not in game, so tell me if those weapon damage are not correct for T2, thanks.
I really like that Smoke Bomb idea but while there were already alot good ideas how to help TR in PvE without boosting him in PvP and we still don't see any of these ideas ingame...
Joke of the year...
Been playing pvp games for over 15 years and never seen or heared of any other game that allowes you to attack and receive damage and still maintain invisibility.
You worked hard ... i am almost at loss of words how to describe the utter failiure in allowing such a redicules feat in pvp.
Most realize this and want tr to have other things that makes the competitive in pvp like more survivability more dam etc etc.
When you pug and face a team with 3 perma hide tr that know how to play and have deacent to good gear it becomes all to obvious how stupid this build is.
Skill its an insult to other players to call something that allowes you fight when you want and escape when you want wihtout about any risk what so ever.
Jeeeeeeez in all games you can pvp you found the only class that can fight and recieve dam and still stay inviss and you talk about working hard .... its mindblowing
In truth, the above post from marnival is what I am talking about.
People say playing a perma takes skill. Sorry, it doesn't.
It takes some effort to build it up in the first place, but that's about it. It does take some getting used to when you are dancing with 2~3 enemies that are relentlessly searching for you at a certain node area, but if it were any other class, you'd simply be dead in the first place.
Techincally speaking, the majority of TRs, and powerful ones at that, are not permas. They are actually semi-permas. There's a difference. However the basic concept is still the same between those two -- and that basic concept is made possible through the use of high INT/REC stats, along with stealth duration enhancing PvP equipment and feats. When you have a certain level of INT/REC stats + 50% increased stealth duration(around 9sec total stealth duration) the 'Perfect Rotation' becomes possible. Any time you are not in stealth, you are in ITC and/or Shadow Strike is ready. Any time your ITC and/or SS is in recharge, you are in stealth.
And in this scenario, stealth is essentially a passive defense + offense buff. There is no 'skill' with stealth. It's just a passive trait that allows you to be untargetable in 90% of the situations. You can't target what you cannot see, and you cannot be damaged when you are not targeted. It's not a conscious effort. It's just a toggle-like power that grants instant god mode. The same thing as how using Unstoppable doesn't require any "skill" with mod2 GWFs. You just run into enemies, and then fire it up back-to-back.
The only exception would be some random AoE attempt with a very large radius, and multiple of enemies doing that at the same time. Empirically this only happens when like 2~3 CWs and/or HRs are really angry with you and just shower the entire area in a total of 100' radius or something with their AoEs... and even in those situations most perma/semi-permas are briefly vulnerable, and then soon remedy the situation.
(Note: It is when this happens, that a WK perma TR becomes seriously disadvantaged as compared to a MI perma. Otherwise, WKs can basically do the same thing as any MI perma)
The basic objective of redesigning the TR should be changing the above. IMO, the 25~30% stealth duration enhancement on PvP gear should be removed. Only the 20% enhancement from feats should remain (meaning: 6sec duration increased to 7.2). ITC should be brough upto around 25secs, and SS upto around 20 secs, so that even with high INT/REC they'll be brought down to at least 20s/15s respectively.
Basically stealth is to be used in short bursts, at maximum two back-to-back applications with SS, or three back-to-back applications when using BnS + SS. But stops there. Stealth should be a tool to be used in combat, just like any other power, not the be-all-end-all DEUS EX MACHINA of TRs.
IN COMPENSATION; TRs need at-wills and encounters to be redesigned with effects that assist them with both offense and defense.
Most powers need to be more like Duelist's Flurry -- powers with additional and direct combat-assistance utilities which can be used during non-stealth combat. For starters, TRs don't have any roots. Their slows are a joke, usually lastes less than 5 secs. The CCs are also a joke, with the only major CC being impossibly slow to activate, while all the rest are what... at most 1.0 second in duration? With Tenacity and WIS stats, most of them last like 0.5 secs. Gone in a blink before you even realize you've been CCd.
Why do TRs resort to stealth so much? Because they are totally impotent as melee attackers when visible.
Give the TRs something, anything, so they can fight while visible. Some of you might worry if these "compensations" would still make TRs OP. Well, I tell you, at least this "OP"ness -- if it is indeed OP in the first place -- is something you can react to and fight back against, unlike the stealth TR builds, which you have practically no chance against.
For starters, these are what the TRs need:
■ movement speed buffs that apply WHILE visible (TRs should have fastest default movement speed)
■ attack speed buffs (attacks with TWO weapons in each of the hand, and still attacks slower than a GWF that swings a 6' tall weapon??)
■ more potent slows (current slows meaningless. needs to be at least 8 secs)
■ more potent CCs (Dazing Strike activation time decrease, stun/daze on VP, IS, SS strengthened)
■ new CC powers: Blitz applies slows on default, from stealth slows change to root
■ more reliable gap-closers (VP and Deft Strike both a joke now)
■ smoke bomb: 1 second default duration increase, "hard to see" effect → players within smoke, regardless of friend or foe, receive 30% damage resistance against all ranged attacks, all targets gain 15% increased deflection chance
■ vengeance's pursuit: lose the goddarn 16sec recharge. Make it work exactly the same as Impact shot -- 3 charges, 8 sec recharge per charge, freebie while in stealth. Also lose the crappy, useless CC-break. Instead, all CCs incoming from a marked target will have only 50% duration, including prones. Basically a 100% CC resistance(= half duration) that stacks on top of base CC resistance from race or Tenacity.
Basically an opposite concept from ITC -- if ITC is a global CC immunity that blocks out all CCs attempts from multiple targets, VP will be true to its name, longer duration than ITC, not immunity but significant resistance, works only against your marked target driven by vengeance. Not very useful, almost useless as an anti-CC power in big fights, but in 1v1 perhaps even more efficient than ITC. So, MIs get a global CC immunity that lasts 5 secs only. WKs get a long, big CC resistance in 1vs1. "Vengeance" is the keyword for Whisperknife path.
■ changed feat designs to increase out-of-stealth survivability and attack efficiency
just for example:
→ 5 rank feat that provides 10/15/20/25/30% chance to slow the target by 40% with every at-will hit
■ current at-wills changed to act more efficiently
→ DF: attacks 1, 2 changed to 0.5 second activation time, 3rd attack retains CC immunity but loses deflection, lasts for 1.5 seconds with five 0.3sec attacks executed. Each hit of the 3rd attack applies a 10-stacking self buff that lasts for 7 seconds, refreshes with new application, each stack adds 2% deflection chance and 0.5% deflection severity.
Basically a redesign that makes DF a faster, easier to hit, heavy attack, at the expense of losing its long 100% deflection time. In compensation if 20 stacks can be maintained the TR will be maintaining at maximum around 60~65% deflection chance at 85% deflection severity.
→ Sly Flourish: "Lightning Speed" A paragon feat that adds attack speed increase per rank, 3/6/9/12/15%.. maybe replaces Seething knives in Scoundrel path
→ CoS: Recharge time of CoS charges increased to 4 secs a pop while in combat, but reduced to 1 sec while out of combat
→ DHS: "Heart Stopper" A paragon feat that adds a chance for each tick to produce a 1sec daze effect, 2/4/6/8/10% chance.. maybe replaces distracting knife in saboteuer?
..etc etc. Just examples, not carefully thought out, but general idea on what I perceive to be 'combat worthy' while not in stealth. These line of changes are designed to make the opponents more difficult to run out of the TR's melee range once the TR closes in and really starts attacking.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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robosoxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2014
Hello, I am a PvE TR, and I am expecting another nerf to me any moment now. Honestly, I'm only still a TR because of how much time I've spent on it. Why not just split values for PvP and PvE skills?
IN COMPENSATION; TRs need at-wills and encounters to be redesigned with effects that assist them with both offense and defense.
^^ what he said
Well written well thought through.
Playing perm hide with or without itc is like buying a new pc game set yourself to immortal and run though the game without any challange what so ever its beoynd redicules.
Give tr some of the things Kweassa mention, make then true assasins that can give and take dam and be competetative without having to resort to this *you cant hit me but i can hit you* noncence....
Because Gwf is favoured!
No melee exist apart from Gwf and no patch exist w/o some Gwf buff...
TRs should have the strongest single target damage.
In mod1 Tr was demanded! "Tr on boss" we said it thousand times!
After the Deep Gash bug Gwf has strong aoe damage and do more dmg even on single target and no TR is needed anymore on boss or during preclear obviously!
When they fixed Deep Gash there was a slight chance that TR has their day back somewhat but Gwfs was quickly "compensated" for their "loss" with 40% dmg+IBS and other various buffs...
Now Gwfs are stronger than ever in the right hands(...) and do more damage on single target again than TR or anyone else...
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poli201Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 16Arc User
edited May 2014
I'm a TR. I agree on removing Perm-Stealth. But, I would really appreciate a nerf on GWFs.
Now, What you said... I have played vs alot of TR's and alot of them using those skills I mentioned earlyer and let me just tell you this, Duelist's Flurry? No way you can get full proc no that uless you are trying to kill a cleric in the middle of his circle in wich case he takes not enough dmg for it to be effective. Alot of GWF? Using that will kill you as they can susrvive it without a scratch because you are not moving and they deal 20k to you so fast that you don't even have time to shift away. Path of blade? Lets be honest, compared to most skills in TR, it does not deal that much damage. Tr needs to kill in a burst or he's going to suffer alot, in wich case, this skill can't do it!
Thank you.
By those two comments alone I can now confirm that I can simply ignore whatever you profess about the TR in PvP, since you haven't got a clue as to what the latest development in TR build/tactics is.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
IN COMPENSATION; TRs need at-wills and encounters to be redesigned with effects that assist them with both offense and defense.
Well written. Yes, I play a semi-stealth TR. I get pretty good standings in PvP. But I'm not particularly liking how the class operates.
First, I expected the class to be the best single target hitter. It is not. A GWF outperforms me here even with lesser gear. Much of this is because I am very dependent on stealth and firing off DF as much as possible. I have to keep SS and ITC slotted which leaves me only 1 slot for a damaging encounter. I usually slot LB but if I use that I go out of stealth and thus lose all my damage modifiers and I'm now easy prey.
I wouldn't mind a rework of the class. It really should be the boss killer. Stealth is an interesting mechanic but it is too easy to abuse and only frustrates players. But if the developers just fiddle with Stealth it will destroy the class as it is. People don't understand how integrated it is (or care).
By those two comments alone I can now confirm that I can simply ignore whatever you profess about the TR in PvP, since you haven't got a clue as to what the latest development in TR build/tactics is.
Tell me all mighty GOD! What is it? I haven't played this game since release as TR or anything, so teach me!
Now seriously, what other tactics that are not Perma-Stealth use that? Most people that are not permas build ITC, LB and IS without DFlury! That is pretty much what is viable right now! Now don't come to me saying I am a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on this topic because noone is here to insult anyone and if you want to say things like that GET OUT!
(I know you didnt call me <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> directly)
Comments
Maybe make all classes deal 99% of his HP if he's caught in stealth and remove him from such!
:O
Such good Idea, get out dude, its not even funny that you troll in my thread.
That doesn't solve any of the problems revolving around TRs. Neutering stealth, as it is, simply just pushes the game to the opposite extreme where all TRs are practically rendered into a coma-state. TRs are too powerful while in stealth, but too vulerable while not at stealth. Currently their builds allow them to be in stealth 80~100% of the time. If that's changed without a redesign of the TR, they'll simply be fodder for 80~100% of the time.
The only real solution is a partial/total redesign of the class so its stealth is limited, becomes much more visible much more often, but at the compensation of given some major changes to exisiting encounters/at-wills and their effects to increase combat worthiness while out of stealth.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Completely truth, even the paragon feats of the scoundrel are a disaster, that line should be more defensive. How come since we got the best deflection severity, dont' have any line of feats that give us more deflection chance, like the rangers combatant three?,instead, we have 2 trees coz one of them is totally useless. Example of how i think (i might be wrong) this should be approached:
. Saboteur seems to be more tactical, buff and debuff (making your enemy slower if you crit while you become faster) plus some tools to extend and improve mobility and re-positioning while stealth
. Executioner wich is more offensive/dps and but also gives some other tools ( extra 5% of crit for you and your party. increase the crit severty etc)
. Scoundrel should be more defensive/deflection based, like, more deflection chance against cc, or more deflection while you're cc'ed (at least you will have a better chance of survival if you deflect while your are prone/chocked/frozen etc). All that line does is buffing powers and give more damage while you leave stealth, this line should be aimed for improve your survivability out of stealth
I insist, if they wanna take away stealth, please do so(i don't care about permas) but before, re-work the stats of the armors that push you towards perma-stealth, re-work some of the power wich are a waste of points (wicked reminder,), and give other options, or better ways to escape from control,
For pve, well, all The dungeons need a re-work, why not putting traps that are able to kill characters or may be the entire party, why not putting traps in the minibosses and bosses areas, shortcuts secret areas worth exploring, like every D&D game in existence, let's see if anyone want to enter a dungeon without a rogue, (again, this guys might have never touch a D&D book in their lives)
i agree completely
i have always thought it was weird that not a single paragon feat was defensive despite the huge amount of deflect rogues have.
as for the traps, we can't really remove them in combat and once the fighting ends, there is no point anymore.
I'm sorry, wrong choice of words there, , i was really frustrated, tried to keep my head cool, but in the end i kinda lost it ^^U, but, yes, your are right
what i really meant is, if they're going to nerf the stealth, at least they should give something in return,(as you stated some posts ago) all they do, is taking away. And the worst, all the post about TR... and no a single reply from devs, a word, anything
They are more TRs and GWF in the first 10 pages than GFs in the entire leaderboard.
this whiny thread is a joke.
this "whiny" thread is about showing the devs that their efforts in nerfing the PVP TR is not working, and instead it just makes the class utterly useless in PVE.
I'm mainly a PVP TR so i'm usually fine with it. but I really pity PVE TR players, it's practically impossible for them to get a group at end-game.
Even PVP TR's need to do some T2 dungeons for gear (like fallen/fomorian weapons)…
all and all, i'd hate for them to nerf perma, since i've worked really hard acquiring the skill to play it. and it's really good. BUT on the other hand, it's annoying being the worst PVE class (a specially when you have a 5-player team in a 6-class game)
and how many of them are not permas? :P
And then tell me what's the problem with it? Are Trs actually mad because they feel like having only one viable build in end game PvP? It allows you to survive more than any other character, to escape impossible situations where even the best tanks in the game would die. No other char can trick out a complete team at a cap and win the game.
It's time for you to realize that this game is very minimalist in term of possible and viable builds in PvP. You have to follow the trend if you want to stay competitive. A quick and simple example from the module 3; GWFs sent have been nerfed to hell, every GWF I know turned destroyer because it's their only viable option if they want to stay truly competitive but it doesn't mean it's '' whiny thread worthy '', of course no, it's actually stronger than sent now.
This kind of thread overshadow the true imbalances in PvP simply because they are more TRs than any other class in the game. (And yet, if they were so underpowered, why would they be so many Trs everywhere?)
The leaderboard is a perfect illustration to statistically demonstraste the imbalance and a rational proof over your nonsense semantic debate.
if you didn't know, permas are going to be nerfed soon. only thing we are waiting on is a more specific date than "after mod 3."
and we are underpowered as the only dps skills they still have not nerfed are duelist flurry, courage breaker, and whirlwind of blades (blitz/wicked reminder are already weak and dazing is easily dodged).
by competitive, do you mean the top 1-5%. if so, then that's your opinion. i personally think sent gwf's are still strong, just more on-par with everyone else and the destroyers who respecced barely became squishier anyways. same rule still applies, can't attack during unstoppable.
combat rogues , however, are not on par with other classes in terms of dps or reliable burst due to all the nerfs. everyone else has reliable burst except for rogues and perma only does well because they can be untouchable potentially. our only 2 cc is more of a support/stall tactic rather than for ensuring our own kills (although inexperienced people may not run quick enough from a flurry after being dazed)
I just stopped here.
TR's are highly demonized because being slowly chipped at from stealth is annoying, but trust us TR's when we say that it is our only option and we'd like others.
My 2 cents, nerf or remove shadow strike (replace it with something else)
Fix SE back to 80% of what it used to be
Fix Impact shot
Fix Lashing to do less but not be the easiest power in the game to dodge
Balance WK's to have viability
Joke of the year...
Been playing pvp games for over 15 years and never seen or heared of any other game that allowes you to attack and receive damage and still maintain invisibility.
You worked hard ... i am almost at loss of words how to describe the utter failiure in allowing such a redicules feat in pvp.
Most realize this and want tr to have other things that makes the competitive in pvp like more survivability more dam etc etc.
When you pug and face a team with 3 perma hide tr that know how to play and have deacent to good gear it becomes all to obvious how stupid this build is.
Skill its an insult to other players to call something that allowes you fight when you want and escape when you want wihtout about any risk what so ever.
Jeeeeeeez in all games you can pvp you found the only class that can fight and recieve dam and still stay inviss and you talk about working hard .... its mindblowing
adds with the rest of the group.A remarkable moment in my playtime.Not all TR are interested in pvp,but its seems to be the last reservation.Yet more TR will change to permas and join pvp before finally leaving this game.I was amazed of this game but the missing balance made it a simple hack and slay imho.
The devs took us everything,even formerly outstanding single-damage.E.G.i was able to tank Syndrith in ToS without any problems.Kept aggro all the time and could position her suitable for the group...now if there is any skillfull or well-geared GWF around guess what happens...Oh and I don`t want to talk about finding a group for DD or GG thats done and TR is dead.See u in another better
balanced mmoRPG..or in Trickster-Hell/Heaven.
I've been thinking alot and I think I got an idea to improve the DPS in dungeons!
So... TR's are not very wanted because they are single target oriented and only shine on bosses, on wich there are only 3 and for that matter, dont really improve Dungeon clearing.
What if we add to "Smoke Bomb" something like... every enemy in the area would take 50% of your weapon damage every half a second they are in the area of effect, now remember, this is an important skill for many dungeons where there are alot of mobs! BUT It only has a 3 second duration at max rank AND it would also add a better use for Stealth mode of that skill, to make them slow and be in the area taking damage more time (this would not be able to crit)
Lets imagine your Weapon Damage is 492 + 492 = 984 + about 25% in power on average = 1230 Damage Every second *3 = 3690 Damage Total
Now remember, with the PVP defences this would be reduced to almost useless in damage, but in PVE, I find myself using this alot and imagine there were 10 mobs in average in that area of effect (in Fronzen Heart is much worse) that is like 36900! Now lets say you're constantly using it and hitting targets and you use it about 40 times (its not hard at all, lets just say that because of mob defences and mob count).
Now thats about 1476000, that's a real improvement right there! With this, TR's could finally make the difference without making it OP for PVP!
Anyone else with me on this?
EDIT: I am not in game, so tell me if those weapon damage are not correct for T2, thanks.
As to why they keep doing this to rogues, imagine a class that's so strong that everytime they nerf you, the class just switches to something even more powerful.
I really like that Smoke Bomb idea but while there were already alot good ideas how to help TR in PvE without boosting him in PvP and we still don't see any of these ideas ingame...
In truth, the above post from marnival is what I am talking about.
People say playing a perma takes skill. Sorry, it doesn't.
It takes some effort to build it up in the first place, but that's about it. It does take some getting used to when you are dancing with 2~3 enemies that are relentlessly searching for you at a certain node area, but if it were any other class, you'd simply be dead in the first place.
Techincally speaking, the majority of TRs, and powerful ones at that, are not permas. They are actually semi-permas. There's a difference. However the basic concept is still the same between those two -- and that basic concept is made possible through the use of high INT/REC stats, along with stealth duration enhancing PvP equipment and feats. When you have a certain level of INT/REC stats + 50% increased stealth duration(around 9sec total stealth duration) the 'Perfect Rotation' becomes possible. Any time you are not in stealth, you are in ITC and/or Shadow Strike is ready. Any time your ITC and/or SS is in recharge, you are in stealth.
And in this scenario, stealth is essentially a passive defense + offense buff. There is no 'skill' with stealth. It's just a passive trait that allows you to be untargetable in 90% of the situations. You can't target what you cannot see, and you cannot be damaged when you are not targeted. It's not a conscious effort. It's just a toggle-like power that grants instant god mode. The same thing as how using Unstoppable doesn't require any "skill" with mod2 GWFs. You just run into enemies, and then fire it up back-to-back.
The only exception would be some random AoE attempt with a very large radius, and multiple of enemies doing that at the same time. Empirically this only happens when like 2~3 CWs and/or HRs are really angry with you and just shower the entire area in a total of 100' radius or something with their AoEs... and even in those situations most perma/semi-permas are briefly vulnerable, and then soon remedy the situation.
(Note: It is when this happens, that a WK perma TR becomes seriously disadvantaged as compared to a MI perma. Otherwise, WKs can basically do the same thing as any MI perma)
The basic objective of redesigning the TR should be changing the above. IMO, the 25~30% stealth duration enhancement on PvP gear should be removed. Only the 20% enhancement from feats should remain (meaning: 6sec duration increased to 7.2). ITC should be brough upto around 25secs, and SS upto around 20 secs, so that even with high INT/REC they'll be brought down to at least 20s/15s respectively.
Basically stealth is to be used in short bursts, at maximum two back-to-back applications with SS, or three back-to-back applications when using BnS + SS. But stops there. Stealth should be a tool to be used in combat, just like any other power, not the be-all-end-all DEUS EX MACHINA of TRs.
IN COMPENSATION; TRs need at-wills and encounters to be redesigned with effects that assist them with both offense and defense.
Most powers need to be more like Duelist's Flurry -- powers with additional and direct combat-assistance utilities which can be used during non-stealth combat. For starters, TRs don't have any roots. Their slows are a joke, usually lastes less than 5 secs. The CCs are also a joke, with the only major CC being impossibly slow to activate, while all the rest are what... at most 1.0 second in duration? With Tenacity and WIS stats, most of them last like 0.5 secs. Gone in a blink before you even realize you've been CCd.
Why do TRs resort to stealth so much? Because they are totally impotent as melee attackers when visible.
Give the TRs something, anything, so they can fight while visible. Some of you might worry if these "compensations" would still make TRs OP. Well, I tell you, at least this "OP"ness -- if it is indeed OP in the first place -- is something you can react to and fight back against, unlike the stealth TR builds, which you have practically no chance against.
For starters, these are what the TRs need:
■ movement speed buffs that apply WHILE visible (TRs should have fastest default movement speed)
■ attack speed buffs (attacks with TWO weapons in each of the hand, and still attacks slower than a GWF that swings a 6' tall weapon??)
■ more potent slows (current slows meaningless. needs to be at least 8 secs)
■ more potent CCs (Dazing Strike activation time decrease, stun/daze on VP, IS, SS strengthened)
■ new CC powers: Blitz applies slows on default, from stealth slows change to root
■ more reliable gap-closers (VP and Deft Strike both a joke now)
■ smoke bomb: 1 second default duration increase, "hard to see" effect → players within smoke, regardless of friend or foe, receive 30% damage resistance against all ranged attacks, all targets gain 15% increased deflection chance
■ vengeance's pursuit: lose the goddarn 16sec recharge. Make it work exactly the same as Impact shot -- 3 charges, 8 sec recharge per charge, freebie while in stealth. Also lose the crappy, useless CC-break. Instead, all CCs incoming from a marked target will have only 50% duration, including prones. Basically a 100% CC resistance(= half duration) that stacks on top of base CC resistance from race or Tenacity.
Basically an opposite concept from ITC -- if ITC is a global CC immunity that blocks out all CCs attempts from multiple targets, VP will be true to its name, longer duration than ITC, not immunity but significant resistance, works only against your marked target driven by vengeance. Not very useful, almost useless as an anti-CC power in big fights, but in 1v1 perhaps even more efficient than ITC. So, MIs get a global CC immunity that lasts 5 secs only. WKs get a long, big CC resistance in 1vs1. "Vengeance" is the keyword for Whisperknife path.
■ changed feat designs to increase out-of-stealth survivability and attack efficiency
just for example:
→ 5 rank feat that provides 10/15/20/25/30% chance to slow the target by 40% with every at-will hit
■ current at-wills changed to act more efficiently
→ DF: attacks 1, 2 changed to 0.5 second activation time, 3rd attack retains CC immunity but loses deflection, lasts for 1.5 seconds with five 0.3sec attacks executed. Each hit of the 3rd attack applies a 10-stacking self buff that lasts for 7 seconds, refreshes with new application, each stack adds 2% deflection chance and 0.5% deflection severity.
Basically a redesign that makes DF a faster, easier to hit, heavy attack, at the expense of losing its long 100% deflection time. In compensation if 20 stacks can be maintained the TR will be maintaining at maximum around 60~65% deflection chance at 85% deflection severity.
→ Sly Flourish: "Lightning Speed" A paragon feat that adds attack speed increase per rank, 3/6/9/12/15%.. maybe replaces Seething knives in Scoundrel path
→ CoS: Recharge time of CoS charges increased to 4 secs a pop while in combat, but reduced to 1 sec while out of combat
→ DHS: "Heart Stopper" A paragon feat that adds a chance for each tick to produce a 1sec daze effect, 2/4/6/8/10% chance.. maybe replaces distracting knife in saboteuer?
→ GC: Lunge distance increased to 30', "drawback animation" deleted, immediate activation
..etc etc. Just examples, not carefully thought out, but general idea on what I perceive to be 'combat worthy' while not in stealth. These line of changes are designed to make the opponents more difficult to run out of the TR's melee range once the TR closes in and really starts attacking.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
^^ what he said
Well written well thought through.
Playing perm hide with or without itc is like buying a new pc game set yourself to immortal and run though the game without any challange what so ever its beoynd redicules.
Give tr some of the things Kweassa mention, make then true assasins that can give and take dam and be competetative without having to resort to this *you cant hit me but i can hit you* noncence....
Best
No melee exist apart from Gwf and no patch exist w/o some Gwf buff...
TRs should have the strongest single target damage.
In mod1 Tr was demanded!
"Tr on boss" we said it thousand times!
After the Deep Gash bug Gwf has strong aoe damage and do more dmg even on single target and no TR is needed anymore on boss or during preclear obviously!
When they fixed Deep Gash there was a slight chance that TR has their day back somewhat but Gwfs was quickly "compensated" for their "loss" with 40% dmg+IBS and other various buffs...
Now Gwfs are stronger than ever in the right hands(...) and do more damage on single target again than TR or anyone else...
Thank you.
By those two comments alone I can now confirm that I can simply ignore whatever you profess about the TR in PvP, since you haven't got a clue as to what the latest development in TR build/tactics is.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Well written. Yes, I play a semi-stealth TR. I get pretty good standings in PvP. But I'm not particularly liking how the class operates.
First, I expected the class to be the best single target hitter. It is not. A GWF outperforms me here even with lesser gear. Much of this is because I am very dependent on stealth and firing off DF as much as possible. I have to keep SS and ITC slotted which leaves me only 1 slot for a damaging encounter. I usually slot LB but if I use that I go out of stealth and thus lose all my damage modifiers and I'm now easy prey.
I wouldn't mind a rework of the class. It really should be the boss killer. Stealth is an interesting mechanic but it is too easy to abuse and only frustrates players. But if the developers just fiddle with Stealth it will destroy the class as it is. People don't understand how integrated it is (or care).
If they nerf GWFs again like they did in mod3, they'll end up so strong they'll kill you just by looking in your direction.
Tell me all mighty GOD! What is it? I haven't played this game since release as TR or anything, so teach me!
Now seriously, what other tactics that are not Perma-Stealth use that? Most people that are not permas build ITC, LB and IS without DFlury! That is pretty much what is viable right now! Now don't come to me saying I am a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on this topic because noone is here to insult anyone and if you want to say things like that GET OUT!
(I know you didnt call me <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> directly)
Thank you!