venom0619Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited May 2014
I based the DC fair fight only on survivability. A good DC can stand on a node for well over a minute in those situations. Of course they wont be able to kill anyone and more than likely die if the fight lasts til one man standing, but since domination is the only mode in pvp, that is what I based my definition on.
I based the DC fair fight only on survivability. A good DC can stand on a node for well over a minute in those situations. Of course they wont be able to kill anyone and more than likely die if the fight lasts til one man standing, but since domination is the only mode in pvp, that is what I based my definition on.
Problem is you based your definition on combat basis, NOT node contesting. You went on a whole tangent pointing out what class kills what class(even posting a 1v1 graphic).
Here's the thing: if you're basing your definition on node contesting, you're still wrong. It would go more like this:
GWF
TR
DC
HR
GF
CW
Why? In the order here, the top rankings go to survivabiliyy on nodes and/or the ability to drive other classes off nodes. The DC narrowly beats the HR, because, as has been said, a good DC can never kill someone, but can contest a node almost indefinitely. The TR and GWF can contest nodes AND either kill or push most others off nodes.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
DC could very well be at the top if there are two of them on a team. 2 dc is really really hard to beat when they are healing each other. 2 dc, 2gwf and 1 perma tr is a really tough nut to crack. 2dc on 2, the tr camped on enemy node and the 2 gwf giving support to 2 and enemy node as needed.
As far as any class is concerned though, I think they all hold nodes equally well solo, cw having the worst time of all these. CW almost doesnt even belong in pvp unless the player is really good. With an excellent player, cw can be a nightmare for the other team.
If you are going to make rankings from best to worst you have to take ALL of it into consideration from node holding to kiting to 5v5 to floating, so on.
I think the ranks would be more on a 1-100 scale and would go something like this:
DC could very well be at the top if there are two of them on a team. 2 dc is really really hard to beat when they are healing each other. 2 dc, 2gwf and 1 perma tr is a really tough nut to crack. 2dc on 2, the tr camped on enemy node and the 2 gwf giving support to 2 and enemy node as needed.
As far as any class is concerned though, I think they all hold nodes equally well solo, cw having the worst time of all these. CW almost doesnt even belong in pvp unless the player is really good. With an excellent player, cw can be a nightmare for the other team.
If you are going to make rankings from best to worst you have to take ALL of it into consideration from node holding to kiting to 5v5 to floating, so on.
I think the ranks would be more on a 1-100 scale and would go something like this:
90 GWF
80 HR
79 TR
70 DC
60 GF
20 CW
Well put. I like how you put HR narrowly ahead of TR. Feel bad about CWs, as they're obviously not built for node contesting. Although DCs should hold a little more credit, because they can also help teammates hold nodes(by way of buffing,healing).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I'll say the one and the biggest "con" with HR is that you can't break out of holds and you can't get immunity to holds. Despite there being 4 charges of the dodge and it being rather spammable in comparison to CW's dodge it only dodges for under 25% of the duration. This makes HR very vulnerable to CC and certainly to stun lock. Even with the tenacity giving 20% resistance, a good GWF can almost take a HR down in a stun lock single combo and a good CW that knows what he is doing can stun lock a HR they get the first hit on from 100%-0%. It all depends on a few things, who gets lucky, who gets the first hit to start their combo, who has the better gear to counter another class and the right power selection.
I'll say the one and the biggest "con" with HR is that you can't break out of holds and you can't get immunity to holds. Despite there being 4 charges of the dodge and it being rather spammable in comparison to CW's dodge it only dodges for under 25% of the duration. This makes HR very vulnerable to CC and certainly to stun lock. Even with the tenacity giving 20% resistance, a good GWF can almost take a HR down in a stun lock single combo and a good CW that knows what he is doing can stun lock a HR they get the first hit on from 100%-0%. It all depends on a few things, who gets lucky, who gets the first hit to start their combo, who has the better gear to counter another class and the right power selection.
I bet there's no a player in the entire game that can take down my 13k HR in one rotation. He has 30k HP, ~30% deflect and over 30% DR plus Aspect of the Lone Wolf. GWF doesn't deal any damage to me unless he's pure DPS Destroyer, but then I can burst him down from 100 to 0 with just fox shift and few at wills. I'm not even talking abut CWs, I kill them within Constricting Arrow's duration. HR is a god mode now, stop trying to defend it.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
I bet there's no a player in the entire game that can take down my 13k HR in one rotation. He has 30k HP, ~30% deflect and over 30% DR plus Aspect of the Lone Wolf. GWF doesn't deal any damage to me unless he's pure DPS Destroyer, but then I can burst him down from 100 to 0 with just fox shift and few at wills. I'm not even talking abut CWs, I kill them within Constricting Arrow's duration. HR is a god mode now, stop trying to defend it.
My HR has about 31k HP over 40% deflect in melee and the same sort of DR with 20% from tenacity, overall I have 14.2k gear score. I still manage to pretty much almost die in a single GWF combo if the GWF has the best gear he can get with greater plague fire. If he hits me with all his debuffs to my defense stacked up and I don't deflect I'm pretty sure his combo will hit over 30k damage.
I do agree however if played right and if luck is on your side (mainly about timing) you can beat anyone 1v1 with a HR. With the upcoming changes our damage with split shot is being hit a little and the ability to spam encounters is now heavily effective due to the nerf to Stormstep Action. I'm actually gonna be changing to the new one and playing with almost the same settup other than changing the new at-will in for split shot. I think this update to us will allow HR to have more choice in build, the problem is they have to be careful about how defensive they make the HR.
Still there is no changing the fact a HR verse 2 people can easily be stunlocked.
Well put. I like how you put HR narrowly ahead of TR. Feel bad about CWs, as they're obviously not built for node contesting. Although DCs should hold a little more credit, because they can also help teammates hold nodes(by way of buffing,healing).
I'll admit to being ignorant about DC's in that I havent played 1 past 20. I know about fighting them. A DC and a tank (take your pick) is really really tough. Solo they arent tough to 1v1 imo, it just takes longer. Standing on node almost on top of the enemy DC and spamming split shot right into its face on the narrowest beam several times while it tries to self-heal almost makes me feel bad.
Both HRs and TRs beat GWFs at node contesting nowadays. TRs beat HRs though. Because we have Shocking. Yes, envy and hate us.
IMO they are almost dead equal. It is a game of catch me if you can. I give the slight edge to HR because of multiple types of interrupts, dazes and roots. If I'm landing constricting arrow I think I can win 90% of the time. If I land constricting, rush, foxshift and then disruptive shot and another split shot, and the tr is still standing it is fail and I know my hr will be respawning soon :P
I'll say the one and the biggest "con" with HR is that you can't break out of holds and you can't get immunity to holds. Despite there being 4 charges of the dodge and it being rather spammable in comparison to CW's dodge it only dodges for under 25% of the duration. This makes HR very vulnerable to CC and certainly to stun lock. Even with the tenacity giving 20% resistance, a good GWF can almost take a HR down in a stun lock single combo and a good CW that knows what he is doing can stun lock a HR they get the first hit on from 100%-0%. It all depends on a few things, who gets lucky, who gets the first hit to start their combo, who has the better gear to counter another class and the right power selection.
I use constricting arrow a lot for this reason, especially against targets that are targeting me, constricting and disruptive and I try to get each off every time they come off of cd, on a different target. I aim for really high deflect as my primary defense and it seems to help.
I'll admit to being ignorant about DC's in that I havent played 1 past 20. I know about fighting them. A DC and a tank (take your pick) is really really tough. Solo they arent tough to 1v1 imo, it just takes longer. Standing on node almost on top of the enemy DC and spamming split shot right into its face on the narrowest beam several times while it tries to self-heal almost makes me feel bad.
yea, that's the thing. a DC can last awhile, but theyre not getting the kill. Just that GF and DC have more survivability on node. picking apart his "node contesting" schtick, as an HR can kill both tanks and clerics, but a)can take awhile, b)can potentially outlast you, but almost never kill you. When im on my HR, I kill them, but they sometimes end up taking so long, that the enemy bum rushes me for it.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I'll admit to being ignorant about DC's in that I havent played 1 past 20. I know about fighting them. A DC and a tank (take your pick) is really really tough. Solo they arent tough to 1v1 imo, it just takes longer. Standing on node almost on top of the enemy DC and spamming split shot right into its face on the narrowest beam several times while it tries to self-heal almost makes me feel bad.
Please don't mind him. He already admitted to not having played any class at a high level. He is talking about PUG PVP and we all know anything goes there. Any class can beat any class due to the variance in skill and gear
I'd disagree with GWF's being ranked second in most powerful. HR's and TR's are the best in PvP HANDS DOWN. Proof you might ask? http://imgur.com/kEr8FeR http://imgur.com/SGQ8WrE
Both characters are mine, you can find me in game always PvP'ing x)
I'd disagree with GWF's being ranked second in most powerful. HR's and TR's are the best in PvP HANDS DOWN. Proof you might ask? http://imgur.com/kEr8FeR http://imgur.com/SGQ8WrE
Both characters are mine, you can find me in game always PvP'ing x)
This is not Level 60 pvp. Post this kind of rating when u reach 60. I can bring my mulhorand weapons and epic enchants to fight with u if u want to know what is called dominated at lower lvl pvp bracket.
It's funny 'cause I agree on most statements, except GF - he's not that bad, and DC - he has no fair fights in any case.
Well, the DC can provide something no other class can provide: healing.
Plus unlike the CW, the DC is a good support class because it can tank nodes and it doesn't die immediately like a CW does in high end PVP. A dead player provides zero support.
I'd disagree with GWF's being ranked second in most powerful. HR's and TR's are the best in PvP HANDS DOWN. Proof you might ask? http://imgur.com/kEr8FeR http://imgur.com/SGQ8WrE
Both characters are mine, you can find me in game always PvP'ing x)
By the way, the first picture is a good representation of CW in high end PVP (not that I do know those matches are from high end pvp, but it is eerily similar).
If your team is hands-down better, the CW can profit from it. However, the CW on the losing end is pretty much useless. A CW will never be able to carry a team. Only feed from it.
Please don't mind him. He already admitted to not having played any class at a high level. He is talking about PUG PVP and we all know anything goes there. Any class can beat any class due to the variance in skill and gear
Please don't mind rashylewizz, they don't read what people actually say and make assumptions based on their own poor handling of information. I said I havent played DEDICATED CLERIC at a high level. I have played GWF, HR, GF and CW all extensively in pvp and pve past level 60. When you have such massive gaps in your credibility, please state them as a disclaimer when you post.
Well, the DC can provide something no other class can provide: healing.
Plus unlike the CW, the DC is a good support class because it can tank nodes and it doesn't die immediately like a CW does in high end PVP. A dead player provides zero support.
So the comparison isn't exactly apt.
Every class heals its self so this point is dead on arrival. A gf can tank nodes and doesnt die immediately and heals its self.
I'd disagree with GWF's being ranked second in most powerful. HR's and TR's are the best in PvP HANDS DOWN. Proof you might ask? http://imgur.com/kEr8FeR http://imgur.com/SGQ8WrE
Both characters are mine, you can find me in game always PvP'ing x)
Haha those score's everyone got on the first screenshot made me laugh. ;D
Also did you notice how swaggit98 had posted screenshots from level 29 and 39 pvp, means even less. I just feel bad for the poor players who are just trying to level up to have a twink come and hit them in the face with a one shot.
Well, the DC can provide something no other class can provide: healing.
Plus unlike the CW, the DC is a good support class because it can tank nodes and it doesn't die immediately like a CW does in high end PVP. A dead player provides zero support.
So the comparison isn't exactly apt.
I feel more tanky when I play my CW then DC, because I can CC opponents to win some time, I can dodge more often especially with Severe Reaction, I can kite longer and I can actually kill my enemies. As a DC I don't feel tanky at all in 1vs2 situations, I die within CC rotation and I don't have any reliable CC to survive while I'm out of stamina, the only CC I have is Divine Sunburst, my Divinity runs out too quickly as my abilities are useless if used without it. So why do I play a DC if it sucks? Because I've been playing as a healer in every MMO.
Want my top 5 of PvP viable classes based on 1 year playing experience?
1. HR. The best CC - Constricting Arrow+Disruptive Shot+Boar Charge+Roots - can combine counter CC against each class in the game; the best defense - gear stats, feats, Encounters, Aspect of the Lone Wolf and 5 dodges with insane stamina regen; the best offense - Split Shot and Aimed Shot to scourge either a crowd or a single target; and the best utility - said stamina regen, Maradeur's Escape and Rush, heals, temp hp, move speed buffs, DR buffs and debuffs, zoning, stealth etc.
2. TR. Absolutely invulnerable if played right, wins almost every fight unless fights HR. They can enter the fight and go out of the fight whenever they want. They have the best PvP dailies in the game - stealth with increased damage, invulnerability for several seconds, heavy damaging undodgeable AoE that ignores all defenses, 90% damage decrease plus heavy slow that goes through CC immunities, and I Win button aka Shocking Execution. They have the highest critical and deflection chance (and 75% deflection severity). The only con of TRs - they can't both deal high damage and have unlimited stealth capabilities and it balances them a little bit.
3. GWF. They have become insanely powerful with addition of Iron Vanguard paragon path. It allowed them to constantly mark their target to deal 15% more damage, they gained unlimited gapcloser and ranged high damaging instant AoE knockdown. The mechanics of Unstoppable makes them almost immune to damage if they have enough DR and Deflection. However, after HD was introduced, they've lost their ability to outsustain their opponent. Now they don't have unlimited unbeatable self regen, and they have to deal high damage together with having high defense to win a duel. Also, knockdowns counter them hard and they can't avoid them because they don't have any kind of dodge (Mighty Leap is a waste of slot). Further nerfing will make them UP.
4. GF/CW. These classes shine in absolutely different situations.
CW is a god if there's at least one person that supports them. If the DC heals and buffs them, if the GF protects them - they will punch everyone right in da face. But bugged ArP and some other bugs like CC making the Shard disappear, reduced CC capabilities and natural squishiness makes them barely on par.
GF, the absolutely opposite, will shine in 1vs1 or 1vs2 situations. If a GF is played right, he will be a pain for enemy team. Chain prone combos can deal very high amounts of damage and the block is really annoying 1vs1. But, playing a GF properly takes a lot of skill and their block is absolutely useless against numerous opponents. Also, they can't dodge and break out of CC.
5. DC. Right now this class is absolutely no fun playing. I used to carry my team before HD, but now that is my team carrying me, or we lose. DC has very limited capabilities, they either run full healing powers (which heal very low now), or run full buff/debuff abilities, or damaging skills (but ArP is not working on most of their abilities) or lame CC. They have one of the most dumb CC ever. Their abilities most of the time useless without Divine mode. The only thing they can do is troll their opponent by running all healing/defensive powers with full tank build to endlessly contest a node 1vs1. There's no other option, running healing build means you will be dead in 1 encounter rotation and they are very, very dependent on their teammates.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
I'd disagree with GWF's being ranked second in most powerful. HR's and TR's are the best in PvP HANDS DOWN. Proof you might ask? http://imgur.com/kEr8FeR http://imgur.com/SGQ8WrE
Both characters are mine, you can find me in game always PvP'ing x)
As someone else already said, this is non level 60 pvp. It ends up being more favorable towards classes with stronger, earlier attacks down their levels. Level those characters to 60, play against a PvP guild, then show those results please.
The only thing narrow minded crybabies like rashleywizz got right is that high end PvP is quite different than pugging with random groups, and/or non level 60's.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited May 2014
After years of online gaming in various forms I have come to one conclusion about PvP - it's never going to be "perfectly balanced" simply because everyone's view of perfection is different.
If everyone had one class with one set of gear and one set of powers/ abilities so it's all "perfect" then nobody would want to play that game.
There is variety currently, options, different kinds of gear combinations, and different ways to play each build. I prefer that. Gear Score is nothing without skill, and skill is nothing without others to play with.
:shrugs there:
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I feel more tanky when I play my CW then DC, because I can CC opponents to win some time, I can dodge more often especially with Severe Reaction, I can kite longer and I can actually kill my enemies. As a DC I don't feel tanky at all in 1vs2 situations, I die within CC rotation and I don't have any reliable CC to survive while I'm out of stamina, the only CC I have is Divine Sunburst, my Divinity runs out too quickly as my abilities are useless if used without it. So why do I play a DC if it sucks? Because I've been playing as a healer in every MMO.
Want my top 5 of PvP viable classes based on 1 year playing experience?
1. HR. The best CC - Constricting Arrow+Disruptive Shot+Boar Charge+Roots - can combine counter CC against each class in the game; the best defense - gear stats, feats, Encounters, Aspect of the Lone Wolf and 5 dodges with insane stamina regen; the best offense - Split Shot and Aimed Shot to scourge either a crowd or a single target; and the best utility - said stamina regen, Maradeur's Escape and Rush, heals, temp hp, move speed buffs, DR buffs and debuffs, zoning, stealth etc.
2. TR. Absolutely invulnerable if played right, wins almost every fight unless fights HR. They can enter the fight and go out of the fight whenever they want. They have the best PvP dailies in the game - stealth with increased damage, invulnerability for several seconds, heavy damaging undodgeable AoE that ignores all defenses, 90% damage decrease plus heavy slow that goes through CC immunities, and I Win button aka Shocking Execution. They have the highest critical and deflection chance (and 75% deflection severity). The only con of TRs - they can't both deal high damage and have unlimited stealth capabilities and it balances them a little bit.
3. GWF. They have become insanely powerful with addition of Iron Vanguard paragon path. It allowed them to constantly mark their target to deal 15% more damage, they gained unlimited gapcloser and ranged high damaging instant AoE knockdown. The mechanics of Unstoppable makes them almost immune to damage if they have enough DR and Deflection. However, after HD was introduced, they've lost their ability to outsustain their opponent. Now they don't have unlimited unbeatable self regen, and they have to deal high damage together with having high defense to win a duel. Also, knockdowns counter them hard and they can't avoid them because they don't have any kind of dodge (Mighty Leap is a waste of slot). Further nerfing will make them UP.
4. GF/CW. These classes shine in absolutely different situations.
CW is a god if there's at least one person that supports them. If the DC heals and buffs them, if the GF protects them - they will punch everyone right in da face. But bugged ArP and some other bugs like CC making the Shard disappear, reduced CC capabilities and natural squishiness makes them barely on par.
GF, the absolutely opposite, will shine in 1vs1 or 1vs2 situations. If a GF is played right, he will be a pain for enemy team. Chain prone combos can deal very high amounts of damage and the block is really annoying 1vs1. But, playing a GF properly takes a lot of skill and their block is absolutely useless against numerous opponents. Also, they can't dodge and break out of CC.
5. DC. Right now this class is absolutely no fun playing. I used to carry my team before HD, but now that is my team carrying me, or we lose. DC has very limited capabilities, they either run full healing powers (which heal very low now), or run full buff/debuff abilities, or damaging skills (but ArP is not working on most of their abilities) or lame CC. They have one of the most dumb CC ever. Their abilities most of the time useless without Divine mode. The only thing they can do is troll their opponent by running all healing/defensive powers with full tank build to endlessly contest a node 1vs1. There's no other option, running healing build means you will be dead in 1 encounter rotation and they are very, very dependent on their teammates.
I generally agree with most statements you made.
I think for CW, you need to have a whole team that is superior to another team. One player supporting it is not enough to compensate.
For DC, it is limited to having a really really tanky build. I think their role is limited, but they do have a very strong role. Being a tank on a node. GWFs and GFs will not kill them ever in a 1v1. Once they fix TR's shocking execution, we'll see how they fare against it. They do provide better support than the CW since you know....they actually stay alive. Not my first choice on classes to take on a PM vs PM match though. Synergy's DCs and Choc Shoppe ones are a big asset though to their PM vs PM matches.
By the way, shocking execution is now fixed in module 3. It can still do massive amounts of damage, but not if a player has full health.
As for GWF, most classes have no counters to knockdown either. I'll take my chances with the GWF surviving long enough to pop unstoppable. Its a very tanky class even in its normal form. Only the DC and some GF builds are tankier.
I think HR is the most versatile. It could output respectable dps, has tons of control powers, can be stationed to a node, has defensive abilities to stay alive, can counter a perma-tr effectively, can take the role of support etc.
After years of online gaming in various forms I have come to one conclusion about PvP - it's never going to be "perfectly balanced" simply because everyone's view of perfection is different.
If everyone had one class with one set of gear and one set of powers/ abilities so it's all "perfect" then nobody would want to play that game.
There is variety currently, options, different kinds of gear combinations, and different ways to play each build. I prefer that. Gear Score is nothing without skill, and skill is nothing without others to play with.
:shrugs there:
True, it will never be perfect. We merely strive to be just one little step closer each time though
I pvp with CW, TR and gwf and HR is the nemesis of all of them. Gwf? I get rooted, pulled back, killed on spot. TR? I get detected, then OS-ed. CW? HR is kind of a 2.0 version of me, which can also use Melee at me if he wishes so.
As for GWF, most classes have no counters to knockdown either.
Other classes can dodge or block knockdowns to prevent chain prone combos. GWF can only pray he won't take the damage which would be enough to kill him.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Qualifiers: I have way too much pvp experience in this game
My list on classes in 1v1 situation when it is the very best of the best vs each other: ALL OF THESE 1v1s ARE ON THE NODE! IF YOU ARE HAVING A 1v1 OFF THE NODE IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING!
TR, GWF and HR. Anything can happen, in these 3 possible matchups with these classes involved, (TR vs HR, TR vs GWF, GWF vs HR)
imo as of now the balance between these classes is very good and none of them are "OP" One of these classes might be harder to play than the other but when it comes to the very best in this game it's very close to 50-50 on who wins. Imo these are the 3 strongest classes in pvp atm.
DC: well if you die to a DC in 1v1 you should probably uninstall.. that being said the best DCs can stalemate any class for a very long time in 1v1 unless the opponent gets super lucky with crits.
CW and GF: Not entirely sure on GF vs CW so I won't say anything for sure on that, probably GF has the advantage in most cases. CW will rarely be able to kill GWF and sometimes HR too, CW build here is renegade since it's probably the most viable (for 1v1s atleast!) CW vs TR, TR wins maybe 98 duels out of 100. GF loses to everything except CW and DC.
OVERALL USEFULNESS OF EACH CLASS IN DOMINATION PVP:
1. GWF, TR, HR
2. DC, CW
3. GF (sorry) :[
Disagree? Pm/mail me in-game @keltz0r and tell me why. Or you can PvP (post vs post) on the forums I guess...
DISCLAIMERS: All of this is how things are right now when I'm making this post. This doesn't always apply in pugs or the kind of matches probably 95% reading this ever take part in. I'm also not trying to say classes should be balanced in a 1v1 scenario, just stating my opinion
Comments
Problem is you based your definition on combat basis, NOT node contesting. You went on a whole tangent pointing out what class kills what class(even posting a 1v1 graphic).
Here's the thing: if you're basing your definition on node contesting, you're still wrong. It would go more like this:
GWF
TR
DC
HR
GF
CW
Why? In the order here, the top rankings go to survivabiliyy on nodes and/or the ability to drive other classes off nodes. The DC narrowly beats the HR, because, as has been said, a good DC can never kill someone, but can contest a node almost indefinitely. The TR and GWF can contest nodes AND either kill or push most others off nodes.
As far as any class is concerned though, I think they all hold nodes equally well solo, cw having the worst time of all these. CW almost doesnt even belong in pvp unless the player is really good. With an excellent player, cw can be a nightmare for the other team.
If you are going to make rankings from best to worst you have to take ALL of it into consideration from node holding to kiting to 5v5 to floating, so on.
I think the ranks would be more on a 1-100 scale and would go something like this:
90 GWF
80 HR
79 TR
70 DC
60 GF
20 CW
Jugger Conq GF
....
Well put. I like how you put HR narrowly ahead of TR. Feel bad about CWs, as they're obviously not built for node contesting. Although DCs should hold a little more credit, because they can also help teammates hold nodes(by way of buffing,healing).
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
I bet there's no a player in the entire game that can take down my 13k HR in one rotation. He has 30k HP, ~30% deflect and over 30% DR plus Aspect of the Lone Wolf. GWF doesn't deal any damage to me unless he's pure DPS Destroyer, but then I can burst him down from 100 to 0 with just fox shift and few at wills. I'm not even talking abut CWs, I kill them within Constricting Arrow's duration. HR is a god mode now, stop trying to defend it.
My HR has about 31k HP over 40% deflect in melee and the same sort of DR with 20% from tenacity, overall I have 14.2k gear score. I still manage to pretty much almost die in a single GWF combo if the GWF has the best gear he can get with greater plague fire. If he hits me with all his debuffs to my defense stacked up and I don't deflect I'm pretty sure his combo will hit over 30k damage.
I do agree however if played right and if luck is on your side (mainly about timing) you can beat anyone 1v1 with a HR. With the upcoming changes our damage with split shot is being hit a little and the ability to spam encounters is now heavily effective due to the nerf to Stormstep Action. I'm actually gonna be changing to the new one and playing with almost the same settup other than changing the new at-will in for split shot. I think this update to us will allow HR to have more choice in build, the problem is they have to be careful about how defensive they make the HR.
Still there is no changing the fact a HR verse 2 people can easily be stunlocked.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
I'll admit to being ignorant about DC's in that I havent played 1 past 20. I know about fighting them. A DC and a tank (take your pick) is really really tough. Solo they arent tough to 1v1 imo, it just takes longer. Standing on node almost on top of the enemy DC and spamming split shot right into its face on the narrowest beam several times while it tries to self-heal almost makes me feel bad.
Jugger Conq GF
....
IMO they are almost dead equal. It is a game of catch me if you can. I give the slight edge to HR because of multiple types of interrupts, dazes and roots. If I'm landing constricting arrow I think I can win 90% of the time. If I land constricting, rush, foxshift and then disruptive shot and another split shot, and the tr is still standing it is fail and I know my hr will be respawning soon :P
Jugger Conq GF
....
I use constricting arrow a lot for this reason, especially against targets that are targeting me, constricting and disruptive and I try to get each off every time they come off of cd, on a different target. I aim for really high deflect as my primary defense and it seems to help.
Jugger Conq GF
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yea, that's the thing. a DC can last awhile, but theyre not getting the kill. Just that GF and DC have more survivability on node. picking apart his "node contesting" schtick, as an HR can kill both tanks and clerics, but a)can take awhile, b)can potentially outlast you, but almost never kill you. When im on my HR, I kill them, but they sometimes end up taking so long, that the enemy bum rushes me for it.
Please don't mind him. He already admitted to not having played any class at a high level. He is talking about PUG PVP and we all know anything goes there. Any class can beat any class due to the variance in skill and gear
http://imgur.com/kEr8FeR
http://imgur.com/SGQ8WrE
Both characters are mine, you can find me in game always PvP'ing x)
This is not Level 60 pvp. Post this kind of rating when u reach 60. I can bring my mulhorand weapons and epic enchants to fight with u if u want to know what is called dominated at lower lvl pvp bracket.
Well, the DC can provide something no other class can provide: healing.
Plus unlike the CW, the DC is a good support class because it can tank nodes and it doesn't die immediately like a CW does in high end PVP. A dead player provides zero support.
So the comparison isn't exactly apt.
By the way, the first picture is a good representation of CW in high end PVP (not that I do know those matches are from high end pvp, but it is eerily similar).
If your team is hands-down better, the CW can profit from it. However, the CW on the losing end is pretty much useless. A CW will never be able to carry a team. Only feed from it.
Please don't mind rashylewizz, they don't read what people actually say and make assumptions based on their own poor handling of information. I said I havent played DEDICATED CLERIC at a high level. I have played GWF, HR, GF and CW all extensively in pvp and pve past level 60. When you have such massive gaps in your credibility, please state them as a disclaimer when you post.
Jugger Conq GF
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Every class heals its self so this point is dead on arrival. A gf can tank nodes and doesnt die immediately and heals its self.
Jugger Conq GF
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In that case may I present proof that DC is OP!
or maybe that CW is OP!
Cherry picked screenshots mean nothing.
Haha those score's everyone got on the first screenshot made me laugh. ;D
Also did you notice how swaggit98 had posted screenshots from level 29 and 39 pvp, means even less.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
I feel more tanky when I play my CW then DC, because I can CC opponents to win some time, I can dodge more often especially with Severe Reaction, I can kite longer and I can actually kill my enemies. As a DC I don't feel tanky at all in 1vs2 situations, I die within CC rotation and I don't have any reliable CC to survive while I'm out of stamina, the only CC I have is Divine Sunburst, my Divinity runs out too quickly as my abilities are useless if used without it. So why do I play a DC if it sucks? Because I've been playing as a healer in every MMO.
Want my top 5 of PvP viable classes based on 1 year playing experience?
1. HR. The best CC - Constricting Arrow+Disruptive Shot+Boar Charge+Roots - can combine counter CC against each class in the game; the best defense - gear stats, feats, Encounters, Aspect of the Lone Wolf and 5 dodges with insane stamina regen; the best offense - Split Shot and Aimed Shot to scourge either a crowd or a single target; and the best utility - said stamina regen, Maradeur's Escape and Rush, heals, temp hp, move speed buffs, DR buffs and debuffs, zoning, stealth etc.
2. TR. Absolutely invulnerable if played right, wins almost every fight unless fights HR. They can enter the fight and go out of the fight whenever they want. They have the best PvP dailies in the game - stealth with increased damage, invulnerability for several seconds, heavy damaging undodgeable AoE that ignores all defenses, 90% damage decrease plus heavy slow that goes through CC immunities, and I Win button aka Shocking Execution. They have the highest critical and deflection chance (and 75% deflection severity). The only con of TRs - they can't both deal high damage and have unlimited stealth capabilities and it balances them a little bit.
3. GWF. They have become insanely powerful with addition of Iron Vanguard paragon path. It allowed them to constantly mark their target to deal 15% more damage, they gained unlimited gapcloser and ranged high damaging instant AoE knockdown. The mechanics of Unstoppable makes them almost immune to damage if they have enough DR and Deflection. However, after HD was introduced, they've lost their ability to outsustain their opponent. Now they don't have unlimited unbeatable self regen, and they have to deal high damage together with having high defense to win a duel. Also, knockdowns counter them hard and they can't avoid them because they don't have any kind of dodge (Mighty Leap is a waste of slot). Further nerfing will make them UP.
4. GF/CW. These classes shine in absolutely different situations.
CW is a god if there's at least one person that supports them. If the DC heals and buffs them, if the GF protects them - they will punch everyone right in da face. But bugged ArP and some other bugs like CC making the Shard disappear, reduced CC capabilities and natural squishiness makes them barely on par.
GF, the absolutely opposite, will shine in 1vs1 or 1vs2 situations. If a GF is played right, he will be a pain for enemy team. Chain prone combos can deal very high amounts of damage and the block is really annoying 1vs1. But, playing a GF properly takes a lot of skill and their block is absolutely useless against numerous opponents. Also, they can't dodge and break out of CC.
5. DC. Right now this class is absolutely no fun playing. I used to carry my team before HD, but now that is my team carrying me, or we lose. DC has very limited capabilities, they either run full healing powers (which heal very low now), or run full buff/debuff abilities, or damaging skills (but ArP is not working on most of their abilities) or lame CC. They have one of the most dumb CC ever. Their abilities most of the time useless without Divine mode. The only thing they can do is troll their opponent by running all healing/defensive powers with full tank build to endlessly contest a node 1vs1. There's no other option, running healing build means you will be dead in 1 encounter rotation and they are very, very dependent on their teammates.
As someone else already said, this is non level 60 pvp. It ends up being more favorable towards classes with stronger, earlier attacks down their levels. Level those characters to 60, play against a PvP guild, then show those results please.
The only thing narrow minded crybabies like rashleywizz got right is that high end PvP is quite different than pugging with random groups, and/or non level 60's.
If everyone had one class with one set of gear and one set of powers/ abilities so it's all "perfect" then nobody would want to play that game.
There is variety currently, options, different kinds of gear combinations, and different ways to play each build. I prefer that. Gear Score is nothing without skill, and skill is nothing without others to play with.
:shrugs there:
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I generally agree with most statements you made.
I think for CW, you need to have a whole team that is superior to another team. One player supporting it is not enough to compensate.
For DC, it is limited to having a really really tanky build. I think their role is limited, but they do have a very strong role. Being a tank on a node. GWFs and GFs will not kill them ever in a 1v1. Once they fix TR's shocking execution, we'll see how they fare against it. They do provide better support than the CW since you know....they actually stay alive. Not my first choice on classes to take on a PM vs PM match though. Synergy's DCs and Choc Shoppe ones are a big asset though to their PM vs PM matches.
By the way, shocking execution is now fixed in module 3. It can still do massive amounts of damage, but not if a player has full health.
As for GWF, most classes have no counters to knockdown either. I'll take my chances with the GWF surviving long enough to pop unstoppable. Its a very tanky class even in its normal form. Only the DC and some GF builds are tankier.
I think HR is the most versatile. It could output respectable dps, has tons of control powers, can be stationed to a node, has defensive abilities to stay alive, can counter a perma-tr effectively, can take the role of support etc.
True, it will never be perfect. We merely strive to be just one little step closer each time though
Which other class is vulnerable to knockdown?
Other classes can dodge or block knockdowns to prevent chain prone combos. GWF can only pray he won't take the damage which would be enough to kill him.
My list on classes in 1v1 situation when it is the very best of the best vs each other: ALL OF THESE 1v1s ARE ON THE NODE! IF YOU ARE HAVING A 1v1 OFF THE NODE IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING!
TR, GWF and HR. Anything can happen, in these 3 possible matchups with these classes involved, (TR vs HR, TR vs GWF, GWF vs HR)
imo as of now the balance between these classes is very good and none of them are "OP" One of these classes might be harder to play than the other but when it comes to the very best in this game it's very close to 50-50 on who wins. Imo these are the 3 strongest classes in pvp atm.
DC: well if you die to a DC in 1v1 you should probably uninstall.. that being said the best DCs can stalemate any class for a very long time in 1v1 unless the opponent gets super lucky with crits.
CW and GF: Not entirely sure on GF vs CW so I won't say anything for sure on that, probably GF has the advantage in most cases. CW will rarely be able to kill GWF and sometimes HR too, CW build here is renegade since it's probably the most viable (for 1v1s atleast!) CW vs TR, TR wins maybe 98 duels out of 100. GF loses to everything except CW and DC.
OVERALL USEFULNESS OF EACH CLASS IN DOMINATION PVP:
1. GWF, TR, HR
2. DC, CW
3. GF (sorry) :[
Disagree? Pm/mail me in-game @keltz0r and tell me why. Or you can PvP (post vs post) on the forums I guess...
DISCLAIMERS: All of this is how things are right now when I'm making this post. This doesn't always apply in pugs or the kind of matches probably 95% reading this ever take part in. I'm also not trying to say classes should be balanced in a 1v1 scenario, just stating my opinion