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PVP List of "Most OP" Rankings + HR Pros/Cons
venom0619
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 22 Arc User
In hopes that Cryptic actually listens/reads the forums, here is the current list of imbalance in PVP.
1. Hunter Ranger
2. Great Weapon Fighter
3. Trickster Rogue
4. Control Wizard
5. Devoted Cleric
6. Guardian Fighter
Since Cryptic is trying to promote pvp before fixing it.
This is not meant to incite rage/flaming, merely bring light to an issue of what classes need more balancing. Obviously there are exceptions (like in gear score) that people will try and argue for ("I've seen a DC kill so and so once") I am not willing to discuss/argue edge case scenarios, sorry. This is about consistency.
!!!!This is NOT a list of things to fix!!!! (I am not asking GWFs to get dodges), these are bullet points of class pros/cons.
______________________________________________________
Feel free to add to the list (I'm definitely missing some for the other classes), but here is the HR pros/cons for PVP
HR Pros:
Massive CC (more control than a "Control" wizard)
Multiple Dailies (as well as insane Daily recharge)
Insane Mobility
Great Damage
Decent Stealth
NO cast time on abilities
6 Encounters vs normal of 3 (no cast time/CD to switch between either stances)
Most dodges (4 total)
Okay team buffs
++New class, so bugs aren't being fixed for it (haven't been for a few months now)
More buffs inbound in mod 3
HR Cons:
Poorly fit name "Ranger" (why not call him God, since he has everything)
1v1 anything, they will win. For those who say "they aren't OP" then list some cons.
Once mod 3 buffs come out, we will just call this "Hunter Ranger Online".
GWF PROS
Amazing damage
Unstoppable gives insane mitigation (tankier than a GF)
Decent CC immunity
Moderate CC
GWF Cons
No dodges
Melee with terrible gap closers (especially since network code in neverwinter is terrible, threatening rush will move to target THEN rubberband you back, making you wish you never did it in first place - meaning: you can't use it at max range/the range it was intended)
GWF will usually get at least 1-1 K/D ratio, and always gets at least top 3 in kills
TR PROS
Permastealth
CC immunity
2 dodges
Daily that deals 50% of health (unless used very poorly-incorrectly)
Decent damage
TR CONS
Squishy (only when out of stealth/impossible to catch)
Melee with few gap closers
Rogues will usually get top 3 in score, and averages around 0.5-1/1 K/D ratio
Poor network code in neverwinter can make Rogues seem even stealthier, because if your on top of one, he can beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of you with melee, and you still WONT see him.
CW PROS
Great damage from a Range
Interrupts ONLY (no control)
Good dodges (3 total)
CW CONS
Tenacity now means no Control for your "Control" Wizard
Half a second cast timers
CWs will rarely rank 1st in PVP Score/Kills
Compared to an HR who has more control/equivalent damage/more defense/more abilities, this class just seems like an ugly step child now.
DC PROS
Good dodges (2 total)
Great heals
Good damage mitigation (AS)
DC CONS
Terrible offensive capabilities
Normally focused first because of the heals/buffs provided. However 1v1 is useless and will never win
I would consider DC being the most balanced however, it fits its "Class" correctly: healer, and isn't affected by terrible network code.
GF Pros
Moderate CC
GF Cons
Despite being a "guardian", has less damage resist than "weapon" fighters when in combat.
CD AFTER abilities (seriously?)
Block has poor response time, up to half a second (compared to other classes having INSTANT dodges), keep in mind: most people who use shields carry it in FRONT of them, but it feels like hes pulling his shield off his back every time to get it ready.
Terrible CC immunity (can be rooted/frozen regardless of slow block mechanic)
Terrible Mobility (no shift move)
Melee with terrible gap closers (especially since network code in neverwinter is terrible, threatening rush will move to target THEN rubberband you back, making you wish you never did it in first place. meaning: you can't use it at max range/the range it was intended)
A guardian fighter can do okay damage, or be seen as a support class with it's buffs. 1v1 depends on the class (get wrecked by CW/HR, do well against TR/DC, and do okay against GWF)
Following is a 1v1 comparison. Obviously 5v5 team mechanics alter this balance. But this is my attempt to show how unbalanced the "triangle" is.
The 1v1 comparison was made on the assumption of the only available PVP maps. Domination being the only one, meaning survival. If you can survive vs a class for more than a minute, then that's points contested: aka fair fight, but it must be done in a set area/node (keep this in mind for the rogue comparison)
Its fine that some classes counter others...(that's the whole point of "Classes" in the first place) but when rock paper scissors is being played, and spock wins every time...
1. Hunter Ranger
2. Great Weapon Fighter
3. Trickster Rogue
4. Control Wizard
5. Devoted Cleric
6. Guardian Fighter
Since Cryptic is trying to promote pvp before fixing it.
This is not meant to incite rage/flaming, merely bring light to an issue of what classes need more balancing. Obviously there are exceptions (like in gear score) that people will try and argue for ("I've seen a DC kill so and so once") I am not willing to discuss/argue edge case scenarios, sorry. This is about consistency.
!!!!This is NOT a list of things to fix!!!! (I am not asking GWFs to get dodges), these are bullet points of class pros/cons.
______________________________________________________
Feel free to add to the list (I'm definitely missing some for the other classes), but here is the HR pros/cons for PVP
HR Pros:
Massive CC (more control than a "Control" wizard)
Multiple Dailies (as well as insane Daily recharge)
Insane Mobility
Great Damage
Decent Stealth
NO cast time on abilities
6 Encounters vs normal of 3 (no cast time/CD to switch between either stances)
Most dodges (4 total)
Okay team buffs
++New class, so bugs aren't being fixed for it (haven't been for a few months now)
More buffs inbound in mod 3
HR Cons:
Poorly fit name "Ranger" (why not call him God, since he has everything)
1v1 anything, they will win. For those who say "they aren't OP" then list some cons.
Once mod 3 buffs come out, we will just call this "Hunter Ranger Online".
GWF PROS
Amazing damage
Unstoppable gives insane mitigation (tankier than a GF)
Decent CC immunity
Moderate CC
GWF Cons
No dodges
Melee with terrible gap closers (especially since network code in neverwinter is terrible, threatening rush will move to target THEN rubberband you back, making you wish you never did it in first place - meaning: you can't use it at max range/the range it was intended)
GWF will usually get at least 1-1 K/D ratio, and always gets at least top 3 in kills
TR PROS
Permastealth
CC immunity
2 dodges
Daily that deals 50% of health (unless used very poorly-incorrectly)
Decent damage
TR CONS
Squishy (only when out of stealth/impossible to catch)
Melee with few gap closers
Rogues will usually get top 3 in score, and averages around 0.5-1/1 K/D ratio
Poor network code in neverwinter can make Rogues seem even stealthier, because if your on top of one, he can beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of you with melee, and you still WONT see him.
CW PROS
Great damage from a Range
Interrupts ONLY (no control)
Good dodges (3 total)
CW CONS
Tenacity now means no Control for your "Control" Wizard
Half a second cast timers
CWs will rarely rank 1st in PVP Score/Kills
Compared to an HR who has more control/equivalent damage/more defense/more abilities, this class just seems like an ugly step child now.
DC PROS
Good dodges (2 total)
Great heals
Good damage mitigation (AS)
DC CONS
Terrible offensive capabilities
Normally focused first because of the heals/buffs provided. However 1v1 is useless and will never win
I would consider DC being the most balanced however, it fits its "Class" correctly: healer, and isn't affected by terrible network code.
GF Pros
Moderate CC
GF Cons
Despite being a "guardian", has less damage resist than "weapon" fighters when in combat.
CD AFTER abilities (seriously?)
Block has poor response time, up to half a second (compared to other classes having INSTANT dodges), keep in mind: most people who use shields carry it in FRONT of them, but it feels like hes pulling his shield off his back every time to get it ready.
Terrible CC immunity (can be rooted/frozen regardless of slow block mechanic)
Terrible Mobility (no shift move)
Melee with terrible gap closers (especially since network code in neverwinter is terrible, threatening rush will move to target THEN rubberband you back, making you wish you never did it in first place. meaning: you can't use it at max range/the range it was intended)
A guardian fighter can do okay damage, or be seen as a support class with it's buffs. 1v1 depends on the class (get wrecked by CW/HR, do well against TR/DC, and do okay against GWF)
Following is a 1v1 comparison. Obviously 5v5 team mechanics alter this balance. But this is my attempt to show how unbalanced the "triangle" is.
The 1v1 comparison was made on the assumption of the only available PVP maps. Domination being the only one, meaning survival. If you can survive vs a class for more than a minute, then that's points contested: aka fair fight, but it must be done in a set area/node (keep this in mind for the rogue comparison)
Its fine that some classes counter others...(that's the whole point of "Classes" in the first place) but when rock paper scissors is being played, and spock wins every time...
Post edited by venom0619 on
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Comments
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
No way. Any decent rogue built for stealth gets an incredibly positive KDR and can win almost any 1v1 if played right. More often than not they have the best KDR.
CW
"Compared to an HR who has more control/equivalent"
Since when does an HR have equivalent or more control? Maybe only if the CW is built for DPS and doesn't slot its useful control moves as well as the HR deciding to take non-useful control moves such as boar charge.
DC
"However 1v1 is useless and will never win. I would consider DC being the most balanced"
Firstly, I disagree with how you decided to portray your "1v1 argument" and how it is in reality. Regardless, why is there a focus on discussing lack of balance from a 1v1 standpoint? You also said yourself 5v5 mechanics alter it and the developers have said they want to base it around 5v5 teamwork and will not be balancing it around 1v1 PvP. That being said, we have already seen them continuing to evaluate and make changes to "OP" skills/feats, ect. There isn't much reason to talk about 1v1.
GWF
"Melee with terrible gap closers (especially since network code in neverwinter is terrible, threatening rush will move to target THEN rubberband you back, making you wish you never did it in first place)"
Absolutely not true. While threatening rush seems to be a bit strange with its animations at times, it is very effective, and combined with their sprint is extremely effective at gap closing. Do we really need another GWF buff compared to where they are at now?
TR
"Daily that 1 hits"
Not true.
@adamy2004/magenubbie threatening rush is useless due to poor network code.
The way cryptic's net code works is: any packet loss (on your side or their server's) results in consecutive packets being dropped, which causes the rubberbanding issue. On top of that there is no sync, (like when you knock your opponent north, they actually fly south) so whenever packets arrive is when actions get checked (again), then performed (again) server side. Rubberbanding in games is 1999 technology sadly. Valve has an excellent article on how to handle network packets.
So these 2 flaws cause you to stand still during a threatening rush -> server checks if you were actually close enough -> throws out "invalid" packet so any movement during/after while the validation occurs causes you to teleport back to threatening rush execution position.
Other than that, despite the 3 paragraph response magenubbie, there really is no meaning to your discussion sadly. I've played all 6 classes in pvp (getting over 50k glory on all of them) Saying a GWF con of no dodges is "poor job, lacking knowledge of mechanics" is a mind boggling counter point against listing a con.
1) 1 off scenario in unbalanced matches.
2) HR has 4 control moves, 1 being a gauranteed interrupt for 3 times every 3 seconds, add roots into the CC. I direct you towards the tenacity information.
3) You are agreeing with me, thanks
4) Already answered
5) Shocking execution will normally be performed mid-combat (with enemies <50%), not at the start. By the time you get it, it is technically a 1 hit. However I should probably rewrite it to say Daily that does 50% to avoid this confusion.
The part that stood out the most to me of course, being a TR, is your complete underestimation of TR.
TR is hands down the most OP class in PvP at the moment, and they get way more than 1/1 KD.
TR completely destroys GFs.
TR can easily beat GWF as long as they have correct dodge & rotation timing with a shocking.
CW? Didn't hear you over my bilethorn ticks.
DC? Well I two-shot a PvP-spec'd tank DC using vorpal a few days ago, is that not enough?
HR can be a challenging fight for TRs due to all of the interruptions, high damage, and ease locating through stealth.
What I saw from this thread is just some QQ about HRs. HRs are not invincible. There are hardly any decent PvP HRs that actually know how to play the class rather than rooting & sitting off-point and aim shotting.
Play some more PvP. I don't know what you based your comparisons off of. There's no one correct comparison for any class-to-class due to different builds, equipment, and play-styles in general, but these seem pretty far off to me.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
Have you played as either a ranger or a GWF in a decent manner? You try playing an HR with your roots and stun abilities against a dude that can become immune to it, get up to you face to face with threatening rush to where you can't get away, and watch him CC chain your squishy body.
Or how about CC chaining and rooting somebody who is apparently, "Impossible to catch" and invisible.
GWFs and TRs destroy HRs hands down in most cases.
A realistic list, coming from somebody who PvPs everyday with every class(look at my signature) would look something like this:
GWF
TR
HR
CW
DC
GF
PS: Serious question: How long have you PvPed, what classes, and what levels? A screenie of evidence would be appreciated.
-They don't have more cc than a control wizard, you could compare a HR that has all cc encounters slotted vs every other class that has no cc encounters slotted, but nobody plays like this. HR in PVP will have no more than 2 CC encounters slotted else they are gimping themselves. In most situations only crippling arrow will be slotted. Between any HRs and CWs worth their salt, it is thus factually false. And in the case they both try to stack as much CC encounters as possible, is still factually false.
-They do have cast time on some abilities, just like every single class in the game. In fact most of their abilities they will use in PvP have a cast time.
-When you compare total dodge frames, this is factually false. If your comparing amount of dodges that can be used successively, then it's true.
Aside from things that are factually false in the OP, their are points brought up that are up for argument. Some I would actually agree with. But it's important to note that things like having 6 encounters is a TAB feature of the class, and that HR abilities in and of themselves are fairly lackluster compared to other class abilities. Their strength comes from having more encounters than other classes and a power and a feat that reduce their cooldowns.
When the OP says "Multiple Dailies" I'm assuming he isn't referring to choice, because in PVP HR's have no choice between what Dailies to use, Disruptive Shot and Forest Ghost must be taken. These Dailies follow a similar theme to HR encounters, they are lackluster but don't use an entire action point bar, which helps to make up for this drawback. It depends really, but you have to consider what skills are being nerfed and which ones are being buffed. The skills that are being buffed are all skills that HRs don't use in PVP with the exception of Fox's Cunning/Fox Shift, which Fox's Cunning is getting fixed(buffed) and Fox Shift is getting nerfed by around 30% on single target damage, reducing HR's 1v1 ability to hold control points. It can be considered decent in some situations. But I'll explain for those that don't quite understand how HR stealth works. HRs have one way to stealth and that is using a Daily called Forest Ghost. It is what I would call decent stealth when at ranged, but it has a long cast time and fade timer and is suicidal to use against melee in many situations. A GWF/GF wants you to cast it, so they know you won't be dodging their next stun.
3) Definitely not agreeing aside from the actual DC quote. Others have stated as well that your "1v1 analysis" is completely out of wack regardless. TR "destroys 0" and is "FAIR" against 4? Have you not seen the endless forums and posts regarding how "OP" TRs are recently? Any good TR will win almost any 1v1 hands down because it can literally destroy almost anyone if played right (even HRs depending on the situation). When has anyone witnessed a decent skill/gear 1v1 TR vs GF anymore where it was considered "fair"? That is just one of the numerous examples of the flaws with this analysis. Also, GWF destroys 1 but is fair against 3? No way. Same situation. However, my goal is not to correct your 1v1 analysis because it isn't a useful tool for coming up with balance (also partly due to the outright statement that this games pvp will not be balanced on a 1v1 basis), but again, others have recognized that there are a lot of flaws with it anyway in addition to these couple examples given.
I don't think this guy's EVER played an HR. Wow, they have "more cc than a CW"?! really?! I must have imagined my HR getting picked LESS than CWs in endgame dungeons lol. The roots can halt/slow melees, sure, but does roots do ANYTHING to a CW or another HR, other than tell him "im an idiot, im using wrong control"!
This guy's just full of HR hate. Sure HRs can kill TRs, but only marginally, and because HRs have ways to target through stealth. Anyone with any PvP experience knows that GWFs are at the top of the pecking order right now.
I 99% agree with this. Switch the DC and the GF though. I can at least sometimes get a kill 1v1 on my GF :P
I agree with this, and magenubbie's statement. This guy has the "balance" of PvP almost completely wrong.
I wouldn't say a DC has "great" heals, and they only have good heals if they wear a non-tenacity gear set because of healing depression. I also wouldn't say they are useless 1v1; a well-specced DC can hold a point 1v1 potentially indefinitely. However, they do have to know what they're doing and need decent gear for it.
Just that this guy's looking at a 1v1 aspect, and considers a DC "balanced". Let me ask you velynna: how often are you highest on kills? Seeing as 1v1 combat is this guy's priority... Not saying a DC cant last indefinitely as you say(theyre downright impossible to kill if their specced right), but this guy cares about the pecking order of "who can kill who better", and im sorry, but a "murdercleric" hasn't existed for awhile(healing depression hurt them, as did damage reduction through tenacity).
HR Pros:
Massive CC (more control than a "Control" wizard)
**Two useable CC skills- Constricting Shot and Disruptive Shot. I don't include Boar Charge because of the "hang time" after using it (you stand there for a few second like an idiot and the person is getting back up by the time you can attack again. CWs have... quadruple that? Their at wills can freeze and do upwards of 1k damage, Chill Strike, Icy Rays, Shard, all of their dailies...
Multiple Dailies (as well as insane Daily recharge)
**1 daily is useful- Disruptive Shot- and, with AP gain, translates to being as useable as a dazing encounter with a 20-25 second cooldown.
Insane Mobility
**Their set adds 20% run speed max. A GF set adds 20% max. Bravery adds 15% for GWFs. TRs have INSANE mobility, especially while stealthed. The only problem I see with mobility is how screwed the DCs got with it.
Great Damage
**Great damage compared to... ? Rangers have the worst at wills in the game as far as damage is concerned, especially melee. Rapid Strike does, what? 1k ranged, 700 melee? Their encounter powers do about half the damage of every other class. Aimed Shot and Split Shot do great damage, IF you can actually get one off. Their "heavy hitters" are largely telegraphed and easy to dodge/interrupt.
Decent Stealth
**Why is this even on here?
NO cast time on abilities
**Aimed Shot- 2.5 seconds and can be interrupted. Split Shot- .5 seconds to 1.5 seconds. Boar Charge- instant prone but 2 second delay after using it before you can do anything. Most of the mediocre abilities have almost instant animations but the "heavy hitters" are close to 1 second, on par with most other classes.
6 Encounters vs normal of 3 (no cast time/CD to switch between either stances)
**Usually with awful melee or ranged counterparts. The encounters that actually do damage in both stances are relatively weak. The ones that do great damage have pretty useless counterparts. It definitely balances out.
Most dodges (4 total)
**6 dodges at half range than typical dodges. Makes dodging a much more precise action than with other classes. Can't tell you how many times I have hit HRs while they were "dodging." You typically have to burn 2 dodges to avoid 1 attack and stamina regen is horrible.
Okay team buffs
**Why is this even on here?
++New class, so bugs aren't being fixed for it (haven't been for a few months now)
More buffs inbound in mod 3
HR Cons:
Poorly fit name "Ranger" (why not call him God, since he has everything)
1v1 anything 'that isn't good or geared for PvP,' (fixed that for you) they will win. For those who say "they aren't OP" then list some cons.
Once mod 3 buffs come out, we will just call this "Hunter Ranger Online".
**Permastealths TRs- rephrase, GOOD permastealth TRs- GWFs, GFs that aren't stupid enough to stand there with their shield up the entire match and use it instead to block attacks that actually do some damage. CWs that aren't the typical <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> build now that uses Chill Strike, Icy Rays, and tabbed Shard. These can all kill HRs pretty easily. You need to understand that PvP isn't even about killing or 1v1- it's a team game based on capping. If a ranged HR is on a great team, yeah- they can stand back and dish out some damage. Learn to fight them and they're easy as hell. If you want to complain about anything, complain about their set bonus having a chance to heal them when they deflect.
GWF PROS
Amazing damage
**Especially for how tanky they are. It should be 1 or the other- not both.
Unstoppable gives insane mitigation (tankier than a GF)
**A GWF in my guild has 52% deflect chance AND can still dish out massive damage. They SHOULD NOT be tankier than the TANKING class in the game.
Decent CC immunity
**Best CC immunity. The fact that they can pop unstoppable after losing 15% of their life is completely ridiculous. Determination gain should be percentage-based relative to their max life versus life lost. A GWF with 40k+ life can pop Unstoppable 10+ times before it dies.
Moderate CC
**Insane CC comparable to the GF(Surge, Takedown, Roar, Indomitable Strength... ) The fact that takedown has hardly any cooldown is ridiculous in itself.
GWF Cons
No dodges
**Seriously? If they had dodges you may as well rename this class to "Great Guardian Ranger," since that's what it would be.
Melee with terrible gap closers (especially since network code in neverwinter is terrible, threatening rush will move to target THEN rubberband you back, making you wish you never did it in first place)
**Sprint is the only gap closer they need, especially with all of their prone skills. I've never had this issue you speak of with Threatening Rush, and once you're close enough to use it, you CAN'T get away from them by ordinary means.
GWF will usually get 1-1 K/D ratio, and always gets at least top 3 in kills
**Lol yeah, maybe if their GS is under 13k...
TR PROS
Permastealth
**Not only permastealth, but the ability to now be tanky enough with Tenacity and Tenacious Concealemnt to not be able to be DPSed out of stealth. The best solution to this problem would be to nerf Tenacious Concealment to 50% instead of 90%. Still retains all of their abilities but makes them play more defensively in stealth.
CC immunity
2 dodges
Daily that 1 hits
Decent damage
TR CONS
Squishy (only when out of stealth/impossible to catch)
**Um... derp? They're SUPPOSED to be? That's why they have STEALTH. If you're good enough with stealth and ItC, TRs can be the hardest to kill in the game.
Melee with few gap closers
**Oh, you mean other than their INSANE move speed? Yeah... ok.
Rogues will usually get top 3 in score, and averages around 0.5-1/1 K/D ratio
Poor network code in neverwinter can make Rogues seem even stealthier, because if your on top of one, he can beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of you with melee, and you still WONT see him.
CW PROS
Great damage from a Range
Interrupts ONLY (no control)
**You do realise that SLOW is a control power, right? Chill Strike stuns, Icy Rays immobilises, Shard prones, Ice Knife prones, Oppressive Force has a ridiculously long daze effect, Ray of Frost can freeze pretty quick, Entangling Force.....
Good dodges (3 total)
**Best dodge in the game IMO
CW CONS
Tenacity now means no Control for your "Control" Wizard
**Except for the part where Cryptic specifically said that CWs will have a passive bonus to ignoring control resist.
Half a second cast timers
**All classes have cast timers. The only problem I've ever had on a CW is how long the DAILIES take to cast. It's not the cast timers you should be complaining about- it's how telegraphed their animations are.
CWs will rarely rank 1st in PVP Score/Kills
Compared to an HR who has more control/equivalent damage/more defense/more abilities, this class just seems like an ugly step child now.
**I've seen plenty of CWs ranked first. You're obviously a CW that keeps getting your *** beat by HRs since you like to compare them so much and complain about the 2. Just an observation, but CWs are nowhere near as bad as you make them out to be. My advice would be to not get hung up on the kills and deaths and focus more on each character's part in a PvP match.
DC PROS
Good dodges (3 total)
Great heals
Good damage mitigation (AS)
**Good damage mitigation in general. I have a DC built specifically for PvP with 46% damage resist and 30% deflect chance with 35k life. Add in the 22.5% from Tenacity and they're a tanking beast.
DC CONS
Terrible offensive capabilities
Normally focused first because of the heals/buffs provided. However 1v1 is useless and will never win
I would consider DC being the most balanced however, it fits its "Class" correctly: healer, and isn't affected by terrible network code.
**DC, if built right, can be the most tanky class in the game. A DC's success in PvP is entirely dependent on their team, which is why this class fails and is often more of a liability than an asset. The majority of a DC's healing skills are used on itself. If they're focused first, all they're healing is the damage of a stray misfire to someone else or a bit of damage from AoE. PvP is not about DPS anymore- it's about CC. You keep a DC CCed and they're useless and fall pretty quick once a team converges on them.
GF Pros
Moderate CC
**Excellent CC, and probably the best. If built right they can pretty much keep you CC locked and destroy you pretty easily.
GF Cons
Despite being a "guardian", has less damage resist than "weapon" fighters when in combat.
**Um... GWFs have about 35-45%, depending on their build. GWFs have over 50%. Also, if you're smart enough to use block to absorb encounters instead of at wills, they can be pretty unkillable with a good bit of regen.
CD AFTER abilities (seriously?)
**Idk, you got me here. I have no idea what you're talking about. I see no problems with their cooldowns.
Block has poor response time, up to half a second (compared to other classes having INSTANT dodges)
**Works fine for me. Hit your button sooner.
Terrible CC immunity (can be rooted/frozen regardless of slow block mechanic)
**Second best CC immunity to the GWF. Burn up all of your guard meter blocking at wills and you're screwed. AoE stuns are blocked regardless of where you're aiming. If you're fighting something with single-target stuns, try using the target lock key when you fight them.
Terrible Mobility (no shift move)
**They have a freakin SHIELD that blocks EVERYTHING. Why the hell do they need a "shift move?" This is another case of learning to play the class right.
Melee with terrible gap closers (especially since network code in neverwinter is terrible, threatening rush will move to target THEN rubberband you back, making you wish you never did it in first place)
**Again, I don't know where you're getting this rubberbanding from but I've never had the issue. Threatening Rush is the best "gap closer" in the game because you can't out-dodge the range from it.
A guardian fighter can do okay damage, or be seen as a support class with it's buffs. 1v1 depends on the class (get wrecked by CW/HR, do well against TR/DC, and do okay against GWF)
**GF is the most balanced class in the game and will win 1v1 against anything if done right. You need to factor in EVERYTHING when you make these comparisons or else you're just spouting rage and nonesense. I've seen PLENTY of GFs at the top of the list after a match with 15 or more kills and no deaths. Blame the people using them, not the class. GFs especially excel at killing TRs, CWs, DCs, and HRs (although it usually is a good fight with a 50-50 outcome).
"DC? Well I two-shot a PvP-spec'd tank DC using vorpal a few days ago, is that not enough?" That's a 1 off, and very unbelievable "2 shot"
@arcmoon99
Your sig doesn't really tell me anything, except that you might have 7 characters
As stated before, I earned over 50k glory on all classes (which implies lvl 60). I have 7 characters, started this game back in Jan (as my profile says)
HRs abuse bugs against TRs (immune to range/auto target), so while impossible to catch is good, the "invisible" part isn't true sadly.
@williep30
Roots, daze, constrict(x3). Also we are talking pvp, HR CC in pve is useless because its single target CC.
Least we can agree on the top 3, and bottom 3.
I feel like people want to argue over 1 or 2 abilities, or make the point that "their" class is the op one, or just provide snide "lolwut"/learn to play counter points... but overall the consensus is: HR/TR/GWF top 3
The 1v1 comparison was made on the assumption of the only available PVP maps. Domination being the only one, meaning survival. If you can survive vs a class for more than a minute, then that's points contested: aka fair fight. If you spend 10 minutes to kill someone in 1v1, and you think that wasn't a fair fight, realign your thoughts please.
Very rarely. It's perhaps not fair to judge a DC based on kills though, since that's not their role. I disagree with some of the things OP said, but I think he at least got their position in his ranking system right (just above GFs).
and a rogue can take on any class, especially clerics. clerics only feel immortal when there are 2 of them or they spam that damage-immune aoe buff. still, by themselves they r no issue.
Hes basing it on kills though. I like a DC or 2 on my team, knowing their role. Unlike other qqers, I prefer ALL classes on my team if they play by their roles, instead of working on K/D ratios...
DCs do not come with 3 dodges. They have 2. However, with Healing Step, they can get some great stamina regen. But saying DCs have 3 dodges is like saying CWs have 4+ dodges.
And as we are talking about pvp then, can CWs not daze/stun/freeze/force choke(entangling force)? Whether currently broken atm or not, CWs actually have the biggest array of control powers. Can HRs freeze targets with their AT WILLS?
CWs can literally slot ALL OF THEIR CONTROL POWERS IN THEIR 4 SLOTS, 2 ENCOUNTERS, 2 DAILIES, AND HAVE POWERS LEFT OVER NOT PUT ON THERE. An Hr can slot a few encounters and a Daily, and mind you most of their "cc" encounters have crappy damage and/or stance counterparts.
Or HRs with 8 dodges(stamina built might have a 7th ready a second after final one)
Thank you, thank you very much for this response. Although we might not totally agree on everything, this was very informative and helpful feedback.
Sadly, you don't play CW in pvp... the ray takes several seconds to build up, and is only useful against GFs (if at a good enough range)
All control powers are merely interrupts that last <1 second. Icy rays being the "longest" however, prones/constrict are currently king of CC in pvp.
Icy Knife is easy to counter, and Oppressive force take time and close range to cast.
Nice try, you don't seem to play CW or HR in pvp... ray of frost(because youre such an expert, you cant even name the ability) does continuous damage WHILE its stacking those chill stacks.
And tenacity screwed over CWs damage and control, but heres something any person who knows CWs at least knows. THEIR ROTATION DOES CONSISTENT, CONSTANT DoT TO AN ENEMY WHILE THEYRE CONTROLLED AND/OR WHILE CC IS BEING PUT INTO PLACE. Hr abilities apply better control(slightly, and a lot of that has been fixed, and/or will be fixed in Mod 3), but the abilities that apply it are NOT great damage dealers, and don't have the DoTs with said cc abilities, to keep up with a CW. Comparing HR and CW cc is like comparing DC and GWF healing. GWFs(like HRs cc) cant keep sustained healing, yet a DC has more consistent, HoT(heals over time)(CWs cc).
Make Rapid Shot root, and do DoT for example, then youd have an argument.
Ok now where is yours?
Can't you see that everybody is against you? Your data is EXTREMELY flawed and I doubt you have much experience with PvP at all. HRs do not use bugs against TRs, so many bugs were cracked down within the first month of the HR and their are no widely known bugs for the HR as of today. Hrs are a decent class that sit right in the middle just above CWs in PvP and are absolutely terrible in PvE.
The HR has a total of 6 Control abilities out of all Dailies, Encounters, At-wills, and class features total. And they're are mostly roots and slows and very few disables.
The CW has a total of 16 Control abilities out of all Dailies, Encounters, At-Wills, and class features total. The CW has Way more CC than the HR and that is why they're chosen over HRs in DDs.
You are coming on as one of the most ignorant people I have yet to see on these forums.
Awww, couldn't have said it better myself... oh wait. you did :P.
By the way, I also have a total of 8 level 60 characters through 3 accounts, and have played them all in PvP(some more than others, of course). And im not counting characters ive deleted since in open beta.
Good TR will beat a GWF. A crit shocking can do over 20K without vorpal, go figure lol.
I knew HR was next on the qq list, and it is only going to get worse with mod3.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Exactly...
Ive been paying attention, and people have been qqing about HRs since they came out.
To be fair, there is no tenacity in PvE. I'm not entirely sure why we're arguing over who has more CC; regardless, HRs have good CC and far more survivability than CWs. The best HRs can kill the best GWFs and TRs in 1v1s, although at that point the discussion no longer reflects what may be true for most PvPers.
"Everyone" is incorrect, and besides that, people are disagreeing on specific points, but not everything. Feel free to make some statements, I'm sure someone will disagree with you on. The only difference is, I can't respond fully to everyone's misunderstanding.
I already stated before HR's use range immunity, and auto target. I don't know why people keep talking about PvE. 16 controls on 5 slots is still only 5 max. The controls are brief due to tenacity.
I only appear ignorant because I made a statement that you are unwilling to understand or even listen to... Sorry, you only seem to want to attack me, and not have an actual discussion however (by calling ignorance and the "put up or shut up" attitude), so I will be giving up with these responses towards you. Let's just part ways now.