Hmm, I get what your selling ... However GWF can kill anyone in the game so can we agree they are OP? TR are second only to GWF at this current time only really threatened by GWF... So they can be justly thrown in the OP mix, however other classes fair decent in PvP using what abilities they have. True the CW lacks any form of defensive ability to either help with damage taken or escapability. If the CW got a daily that allowed them to disappear like Forest Wolf for 4-5 seconds giving them a chance to get some distance I think they would be far better.
But as you said we shall wait and see, I for one will not care if we are tweaked to do less damage in pve, as long as our single target is buffed!
As for bile, I was unaware that Biles dot was NOT considered a dot... I will try it again as I still have the enchant in my bags I'll give it another shot.
Yep, if we compare the GWF to every class in the game they'd be considered the most powerful, but it'll change by mod 3 since the feat that made them burst-y (Deep Gash) is getting a significant rework. This way Sentinels won't be dealing too much damage for taking a T1 Destroyer Feat. TR's and HR's are next in line but HR's wreck TR's regardless of build as they have ironically more tricks than TR's. PS. If my CW had an HR skill, I'd much rather have Aspect of the Lone Wolf. That thing is crazy for PVP. Raw 20% DR when in 1 vs 1's on a node. Pair that up with Shield and maybe slap in some sort of immunity or resist skill and we got ourselves a beast.
And yeah I'm sure you'll find Bile to be very helpful against TR's. It doesn't work very well with skills that hit slowly, but when used with RoF or Steal Time + Dodge Cancel and you basically have a reusable way to take the TR out of Stealth while kiting him on a node. And once he's out of Stealth, RoF will be stacking Biles on him regardless if he's in ITC or not. Have fun and good luck, Rip.
How effectively a bilethorn on cleric kicks a perma out of stealth? Our encounters are limited and our fastest at-will is bugged and did not get a fix for months (or near a year.... dc got no love but only nerfs...)
Hey, Elf. Perfect timing. Maybe you can test a couple of stuff in Preview? If you need a Bile I can send one to you as soon as you accept. I'm thinking the following DC skills can stack Bile pretty well but I don't have a geared or level 60 DC to test these theories.
- Forgemaster's Flame: DoT's seem to behave differently with Bilethorn, stacking 1 Bile per DoT tick as observed from the CW's Scorching Burst. So in theory, FMF would most probably land lasting damage ticks with stacks of Bilethorn in the process.
- Brand of the Sun: Same as above.
- Punishing Light: This At-Will seems to behave a whole lot like Ray of Frost. It's a "ray" skill that hits very quickly within a short span of time and it may be possible that this skill hits as fast or probably faster than Ray of Frost, effectively stacking Bilethorn ticks similar to the TR's Duelist's Flurry and the CW's Ray of Frost.
Lastly, the Dread Ring Boon, Burning Guidance, is also effective in damaging a TR in Stealth when DC's use Astral Shield. It doesn't stack Bile but it's another way to stack some damage on TR's to take him out of Stealth faster. That's basically it. I haven't had the chance to test with a DC yet but I'm confident these 3 skills would show favorable results when paired with Bilethorn.
Hey, Elf. Perfect timing. Maybe you can test a couple of stuff in Preview? If you need a Bile I can send one to you as soon as you accept. I'm thinking the following DC skills can stack Bile pretty well but I don't have a geared or level 60 DC to test these theories.
- Forgemaster's Flame: DoT's seem to behave differently with Bilethorn, stacking 1 Bile per DoT tick as observed from the CW's Scorching Burst. So in theory, FMF would most probably land lasting damage ticks with stacks of Bilethorn in the process.
- Brand of the Sun: Same as above.
- Punishing Light: This At-Will seems to behave a whole lot like Ray of Frost. It's a "ray" skill that hits very quickly within a short span of time and it may be possible that this skill hits as fast or probably faster than Ray of Frost, effectively stacking Bilethorn ticks similar to the TR's Duelist's Flurry and the CW's Ray of Frost.
Lastly, the Dread Ring Boon, Burning Guidance, is also effective in damaging a TR in Stealth when DC's use Astral Shield. It doesn't stack Bile but it's another way to stack some damage on TR's to take him out of Stealth faster. That's basically it. I haven't had the chance to test with a DC yet but I'm confident these 3 skills would show favorable results when paired with Bilethorn.
I did own a lesser bile for testing. From my testing experience, FF only proc bile at its first tick but not every tick of it, i think the same thing apply to Bots. However our divine at will punishing light is bugged for near a year where stop casting it will remove nearly all debuff on our target, basically become a free cleanse for enemy. It removes bile ticks, plaguefire ticks, high prophet debuff etc after PL ends so it kills the idea of bile cleric (i actually buy the bile to synergy with PL, but it doesn't work at all....)
For more infos abt cleric changes and bug kindly visit here at preview forum.
Stealth isnt so much the win button people think it is, but rather another thing that forces players to change up what they are doing. Thornward and split the sky generally keep a tr out of stealth and sts can cause a tr to tear himself apart if he is not careful. But on my hr I do not want to slot those encounters: they are not in my optimal kill rotation. Class balancing class.
If this was "a problem" there is one major correction that takes hardly any resources...
When stealthed a TR in PvE is useful, but still limited by mob hp.
When stealthed a TR in PvP is difficult to counter without Area of Effect spells.
Solution - change how much stealth meter is removed by damage to a higher factor and 1 clip by the right At-Will or Enounter will reveal the TR.
CW's should equip some Area of Effect spell like Steal Time or Icy Terrain when their team is getting destroyed by a twin-perma back-cap team. It only takes 8 secs to change in an ability (can be done riding on mount) to help the team.
I did own a lesser bile for testing. From my testing experience, FF only proc bile at its first tick but not every tick of it, i think the same thing apply to Bots. However our divine at will punishing light is bugged for near a year where stop casting it will remove nearly all debuff on our target, basically become a free cleanse for enemy. It removes bile ticks, plaguefire ticks, high prophet debuff etc after PL ends so it kills the idea of bile cleric (i actually buy the bile to synergy with PL, but it doesn't work at all....)
For more infos abt cleric changes and bug kindly visit here at preview forum.
That sucks, but on the one hand this saves me a lot of time in testing. Thanks for imparting these information, they're definitely useful. It sucks how many DC skills, most specially Punishing Light, are bugged. Let's try to find other alternatives for battling the unseen opponents, then. If Bile's not going to work then there has to be some other solution to this apart from Burning Guidance. I hate that Boon when I encounter a DC with it in PVP.
How your stealth meter drains away usually when taking hits? A little by a little in addition to stealth cost or suddenly decreased by a lot when taking "little unoticable" damage? BG is threathening perma?? then i will slot Astral Shield and give up my favorite multi-purpose-sunburst, if this is a must or best option against perma in M3.
PvP should be tactful, fighting an invisible target that barely ever leaves stealth and can throw blades from afar without losing stealth is not Tactful! Thats an exploit / bug that needs addressing... You wanna stealth forever fine, no problem here but as soon as you attack you should lose stealth! Even with thrown blades...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
PvP should be tactful, fighting an invisible target that barely ever leaves stealth and can throw blades from afar without losing stealth is not Tactful! Thats an exploit / bug that needs addressing... You wanna stealth forever fine, no problem here but as soon as you attack you should lose stealth! Even with thrown blades...
ffs throw up an aoe. I just said above, thornward and split the sky (on hr) will bring a tr out of stealth, once that happens, constricting, disruptive, and fox shift will kill him.
Stealth TRs are a nuisance class like HR, stealth only becomes a game changer when they are able to troll you into trying to take that node they are camping. If you cant beat him quick, forget about it. It gives you a 5v4 advantage on the other nodes.
ffs throw up an aoe. I just said above, thornward and split the sky (on hr) will bring a tr out of stealth, once that happens, constricting, disruptive, and fox shift will kill him.
Stealth TRs are a nuisance class like HR, stealth only becomes a game changer when they are able to troll you into trying to take that node they are camping. If you cant beat him quick, forget about it. It gives you a 5v4 advantage on the other nodes.
I got shard, icy terrain, steal time or a daily no TR is going to get caught by 3 of those and one he has to be decently close to get hit.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Tried Bilethorn again last night, faired decently well actually as it DID take them out of stealth faster... Very strange as you cannot see a debuff from the enchant and sometimes you don't even see the damage on screen?
Very buggy enchant but it appeared to interrupt the TR's rotation and stealthing around me as I was moving and catching him quite often.
I still can be killed ridiculously fast by their burst, and perma stealth is super annoying trying to get that first couple hits on him. But I felt at least helpful in the match as we won and I finished in the top 5 in every stat. I will play with it more and return what information I can gather based on my experience.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Nice one, Rip. We're almost at the same results. And as for the interruptions, that might probably be because of Steal Time. Steal Time's casting effect is a very powerful slow. Once the TR gets caught in it without ITC (usually this is when he is in Stealth), his movement will be screwed pretty badly, allowing you to catch him slowed for 3 - 4 seconds. And by dodge-cancelling Steal Time, we can keep spamming this powerful slowing effect every 4 seconds. Pair that up with Bilethorn and it's basically a formula for Stealth Depletion. If you have an with you while a Permastealth is on a node, you can just concentrate on landing the Bile stacks via Steal Time and let your ally do the DPS once you pop the Perma out of Stealth while you cast a full rotation of Ray of Frost on the ITC'd TR to ensure that his Stealth will not be regenerating without Shadow Strike. Once he Stealths up after Shadow Strike, it's pretty much game over. He needs to run, as the Bile stacks will kill the TR's Stealth.
And no other class can do it better than CW's. Only downside is that CW's will still have trouble with 1 vs 1's with basically any class due to their innate defensive disadvantages.
No prob and I'm just glad it's working for you bit by bit, Rip. If you discover new stuff in the process, don't hesitate to post more of your experiences okay? I'm curious as to what other combos we can create to counter specific builds. GWF's are still a problem for my CW when they're in melee range so this is the next step for me. If only we had some sort of CC that goes through Unstoppable.
I'm also thinking that Spellstorm Mages that can generate loads of AP can use Maelstrom of Chaos + Dodge Cancel in order to act as a CC breaker + Damage Reduction/CC Immunity mechanic. I'll test it out in Preview as to how often I'll be able to pull this one off.
They truly need to nerf perma-stealth to a large degree. As it stands, the team with the most perma-stealth rogues in PvP wins, and that goes double for GG. It becomes nearly impossible to win if you have roving teams of perma-stealth rogues running around killing everyone without there being even the slightest hint that they are there. HRs are particularly vulnerable, as they are currently the squishiest class, and TR stealthed attacks will oftentimes one-hit-kill an HR. The other way to go with this would be to introduce a gear score meter into the level 60 PvP queue, so you won't have 17k gs people fighting a team of newly minted 60s. With such a lopsided loss, you hardly get any honor, which makes a lot of us completely turned off by any sort of PvP .. and thats kinda sad.
They truly need to nerf perma-stealth to a large degree. As it stands, the team with the most perma-stealth rogues in PvP wins, and that goes double for GG. It becomes nearly impossible to win if you have roving teams of perma-stealth rogues running around killing everyone without there being even the slightest hint that they are there. HRs are particularly vulnerable, as they are currently the squishiest class, and TR stealthed attacks will oftentimes one-hit-kill an HR. The other way to go with this would be to introduce a gear score meter into the level 60 PvP queue, so you won't have 17k gs people fighting a team of newly minted 60s. With such a lopsided loss, you hardly get any honor, which makes a lot of us completely turned off by any sort of PvP .. and thats kinda sad.
Hr's are not the squishiest class, if built right they are one of the more tankier ones in game. Hr's are one of the best classes to deal with Tr's in game aside form another tr. Which leads me to believe your hr was not built for survival, or not much gs compared to opponents.
As a HR you should be one of the last people having problems with a tr. Everything else you said pretty much rant like so not gonna bother.
They truly need to nerf perma-stealth to a large degree. As it stands, the team with the most perma-stealth rogues in PvP wins, and that goes double for GG. It becomes nearly impossible to win if you have roving teams of perma-stealth rogues running around killing everyone without there being even the slightest hint that they are there. HRs are particularly vulnerable, as they are currently the squishiest class, and TR stealthed attacks will oftentimes one-hit-kill an HR. The other way to go with this would be to introduce a gear score meter into the level 60 PvP queue, so you won't have 17k gs people fighting a team of newly minted 60s. With such a lopsided loss, you hardly get any honor, which makes a lot of us completely turned off by any sort of PvP .. and thats kinda sad.
I do agree we need to have matchmaking based on GS, but you shot yourself in the foot when you said hunters are the squishiest class, you clearly know nothing about pvp or about the hunter class, or GG.
Hr's are not the squishiest class, if built right they are one of the more tankier ones in game. Hr's are one of the best classes to deal with Tr's in game aside form another tr. Which leads me to believe your hr was not built for survival, or not much gs compared to opponents.
As a HR you should be one of the last people having problems with a tr. Everything else you said pretty much rant like so not gonna bother.
Oh yeah those deflect hrs are really tanky. They can also eat half of your hp bar with one fox shift:)
....TR stealthed attacks will oftentimes one-hit-kill an HR.
Not to pound on this post even more, but really something should be said about the part I quoted. Aimed shot from forest ghost is probably the easiest, cheesiest near-sure fire kill of any combo in the game and it belongs exclusively to the HR. A 30+k crit from stealth. Follow that with constricting>rush>foxshift>steel breeze and you have an almost sure fire 2 kills in the space of a few seconds. Not to mention 2 tanks vs 2 tanks on (say) mid and you can pretty much freely spam split shot and just level the entire node...there is a reason we get focused as HRs. Playing both classes, but playing hr a lot more, HR has zero room to complain about the cheesiness of tr stealth. Will I troll a good tr that I cant consistently kill and who causes me all kinds of rotation problems and some deaths in-game? You bet. But in any serious discussion...no way.
Not to pound on this post even more, but really something should be said about the part I quoted. Aimed shot from forest ghost is probably the easiest, cheesiest near-sure fire kill of any combo in the game and it belongs exclusively to the HR. A 30+k crit from stealth. Follow that with constricting>rush>foxshift>steel breeze and you have an almost sure fire 2 kills in the space of a few seconds. Not to mention 2 tanks vs 2 tanks on (say) mid and you can pretty much freely spam split shot and just level the entire node...there is a reason we get focused as HRs. Playing both classes, but playing hr a lot more, HR has zero room to complain about the cheesiness of tr stealth. Will I troll a good tr that I cant consistently kill and who causes me all kinds of rotation problems and some deaths in-game? You bet. But in any serious discussion...no way.
not to mention that they may save it for when they are about to die.
i near-killed a hunter just for him to stealth and hide. i knew aimed shot was coming, but there is no way i can dodge it without a single sign that it's about to fire and my ITC is usually on cooldown when that happens. pretty much 10k+ damage guaranteed.
not to mention that they may save it for when they are about to die.
i near-killed a hunter just for him to stealth and hide. i knew aimed shot was coming, but there is no way i can dodge it without a single sign that it's about to fire and my ITC is usually on cooldown when that happens. pretty much 10k+ damage guaranteed.
I don't think I am skilled enough to "hide in plain sight", I need to get behind something or out of line of sight for forest ghost stealth to work for me. So I never use it when I am about to die- I'll save it for respawn when I know I can go right back to the same node, fg properly and aimed shot with a near certainty of a kill.
There are hrs way better than me. I am just getting a taste of the power of this class and trying to use it to win matches.
On topic: I am always against nerfs. As much as I hate it when a better player who happens to be a tr, makes me look stupid in domination, I will never come on here and say stealth should be nerfed. Same with gwf, which is about to get spanked. I would rather see other classes improved than some be brought down. A lot of people in the pvp community already know that hr is "op" on many levels, but not many people want to come here and say so because they dont want hit with a nerf. Instead they are rolling hrs.
My suggestion to people who have a real problem fighting vs a specific class is to roll that class yourself. My experience is that there is a weird synergy that goes like this: if you suck vs "x" class, you'll probably be good at "x" class, or at least you'll have a lot of fun playing it. That times a million for tr stealth.
I don't think I am skilled enough to "hide in plain sight", I need to get behind something or out of line of sight for forest ghost stealth to work for me. So I never use it when I am about to die- I'll save it for respawn when I know I can go right back to the same node, fg properly and aimed shot with a near certainty of a kill.
There are hrs way better than me. I am just getting a taste of the power of this class and trying to use it to win matches.
On topic: I am always against nerfs. As much as I hate it when a better player who happens to be a tr, makes me look stupid in domination, I will never come on here and say stealth should be nerfed. Same with gwf, which is about to get spanked. I would rather see other classes improved than some be brought down. A lot of people in the pvp community already know that hr is "op" on many levels, but not many people want to come here and say so because they dont want hit with a nerf. Instead they are rolling hrs.
My suggestion to people who have a real problem fighting vs a specific class is to roll that class yourself. My experience is that there is a weird synergy that goes like this: if you suck vs "x" class, you'll probably be good at "x" class, or at least you'll have a lot of fun playing it. That times a million for tr stealth.
There's an old saying in the old-school pvp community that goes, "better everyone nerfed than everyone buffed". It's usually a remark aimed against the, "instead of asking for nerfing one OP class or power, why not ask for buffs for everyone else?".
Well there are clear reasons to this, which is;
(1) When something is considered OP and a nerf is requested, it is usually when that "something" has been play-tested against almost everything else, and has been proven to be dominatingly powerful than others. This means there is usually a lot of evidence to support just exactly how much it is more poweful in what kind of manner, how it is reacting to what given condition. Hence, when you nerf it, you nerf that one class/skill as compared to others. It is like hammering back in the single nail that is protruding.
However, when you try and buff everything else to the same level, you are essentially changing multiple classes/skills at once, introducing it to the game. With every new thing/effect/change that is implemented in the game there are repercussions, and since you have just increased everyone else upto that "OP" level... I'll leave it up to you to imagine what things may potentially go wrong.
(2) Another reason is... the game isn't really as fun as one might expect if everyone is high-performance. Its sorta like the PvP version of the Cold War. Everyone is so darn powerful (especially in the offense) that nobody takes risks. Everyone plays it totally "safe". Everyone is way too timid in everything, and why not? If they make one wrong step, there's no coming back from it, you become so much disadvantaged upto levels you can't possibly recover, that the game's essentially over. In other words.. the game's just not fun anymore.
Compared to that, everyone being at lower performance is actually a lot more fun in most cases. Hence, when there is an OP-related balance problem, the standard measure for most developers is to nerf it down to the level of others, rather than try and bring everything else up to the OP level.
...
This is a story from some other game, the developers same Cryptic. The super-hero game Champion Online has huge amounts damage buff-stacking possible... and there is also a certain "total invisibility + speed debuff immunity + 3-dimensional movement + very fast movement" travel power called "Teleport".
When built right, you may be squishy, but you have total control over when and how to engage so it doesn't really matter. Since you're moving all over the air space at super speeds while invisible, and then pour out nauseating amounts of damage spiking with your alpha attack, naturally this kind of build is frickin' totally frustrating to fight against -- unless you have the same build.
So when two of these guys show up at the same time, what happens is one of them does that shi* to the other guy. The other guy then does the same in vengeance. After that, those two guys disappear from the field. What happens is both of them are flying around everywhere in teleportation, trying to back-stab the other guy when he shows up and attacks a 3rd person.. so naturally, both are waiting for an opportunity while not taking any risks by showing up and fighting someone else... and hence, the end result is there ARE no fights at all, just two guys randomly moving around in invisibility, and the game ends up a draw.
About the most stale, stupid, just-not-fun type of games happen when everyone is slingling a tactical nuke-launcher as a sidearm.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That actually reminds me more of the difference between a gunfight and a swordfight. Yeah, guns will always beat swords, but fighting another person with a gun is so boring compared to swordfighting.
There's an old saying in the old-school pvp community that goes, "better everyone nerfed than everyone buffed". It's usually a remark aimed against the, "instead of asking for nerfing one OP class or power, why not ask for buffs for everyone else?".
Well there are clear reasons to this, which is;
(1) When something is considered OP and a nerf is requested, it is usually when that "something" has been play-tested against almost everything else, and has been proven to be dominatingly powerful than others. This means there is usually a lot of evidence to support just exactly how much it is more poweful in what kind of manner, how it is reacting to what given condition. Hence, when you nerf it, you nerf that one class/skill as compared to others. It is like hammering back in the single nail that is protruding.
However, when you try and buff everything else to the same level, you are essentially changing multiple classes/skills at once, introducing it to the game. With every new thing/effect/change that is implemented in the game there are repercussions, and since you have just increased everyone else upto that "OP" level... I'll leave it up to you to imagine what things may potentially go wrong.
(2) Another reason is... the game isn't really as fun as one might expect if everyone is high-performance. Its sorta like the PvP version of the Cold War. Everyone is so darn powerful (especially in the offense) that nobody takes risks. Everyone plays it totally "safe". Everyone is way too timid in everything, and why not? If they make one wrong step, there's no coming back from it, you become so much disadvantaged upto levels you can't possibly recover, that the game's essentially over. In other words.. the game's just not fun anymore.
Compared to that, everyone being at lower performance is actually a lot more fun in most cases. Hence, when there is an OP-related balance problem, the standard measure for most developers is to nerf it down to the level of others, rather than try and bring everything else up to the OP level.
...
This is a story from some other game, the developers same Cryptic. The super-hero game Champion Online has huge amounts damage buff-stacking possible... and there is also a certain "total invisibility + speed debuff immunity + 3-dimensional movement + very fast movement" travel power called "Teleport".
When built right, you may be squishy, but you have total control over when and how to engage so it doesn't really matter. Since you're moving all over the air space at super speeds while invisible, and then pour out nauseating amounts of damage spiking with your alpha attack, naturally this kind of build is frickin' totally frustrating to fight against -- unless you have the same build.
So when two of these guys show up at the same time, what happens is one of them does that shi* to the other guy. The other guy then does the same in vengeance. After that, those two guys disappear from the field. What happens is both of them are flying around everywhere in teleportation, trying to back-stab the other guy when he shows up and attacks a 3rd person.. so naturally, both are waiting for an opportunity while not taking any risks by showing up and fighting someone else... and hence, the end result is there ARE no fights at all, just two guys randomly moving around in invisibility, and the game ends up a draw.
About the most stale, stupid, just-not-fun type of games happen when everyone is slingling a tactical nuke-launcher as a sidearm.
I think you make some really good general points here, but they only really apply if the request to nerf is actually based in playtesting and objective evaluation. Right now there are only 3 classes that are underpowered in pvp: cw, dc, and gf. That leaves HR, gwf, and tr as the balanced classes. So do we nerf THREE classes (not 1) or do we buff three classes? I think the answer lies in just how much the calls of OP are actually predicated in objective analysis and not just qq rants.
I think most of the calls for a tr or gwf nerf are qq rants. There are effective ways to deal with both of these classes. I think the calls for cw, gf, and dc buffs are justified- they are underpowered (especially cw). The idea is not to make them op, just to balance the classes.
I think you make some really good general points here, but they only really apply if the request to nerf is actually based in playtesting and objective evaluation. Right now there are only 3 classes that are underpowered in pvp: cw, dc, and gf. That leaves HR, gwf, and tr as the balanced classes. So do we nerf THREE classes (not 1) or do we buff three classes? I think the answer lies in just how much the calls of OP are actually predicated in objective analysis and not just qq rants.
I think most of the calls for a tr or gwf nerf are qq rants. There are effective ways to deal with both of these classes. I think the calls for cw, gf, and dc buffs are justified- they are underpowered (especially cw). The idea is not to make them op, just to balance the classes.
Well, it looks like at least one of the classes is already being nerfed (GWF), so that leaves HRs and TRs. HRs are going to have a lot of changes so it's still questionable of where they are going to be after, and TRs are untouched. Additionally, the devs seem to want longer PVP fights, so they are focusing their nerfs to offensive skills, rather than buffing other to match.
Well, it looks like at least one of the classes is already being nerfed (GWF), so that leaves HRs and TRs. HRs are going to have a lot of changes so it's still questionable of where they are going to be after, and TRs are untouched. Additionally, the devs seem to want longer PVP fights, so they are focusing their nerfs to offensive skills, rather than buffing other to match.
I am seeing some emerging builds for gwf using swordmaster path and mod3 that are actually better (theoretically) than iv sents currently are. Better as in do more damage and still be very tanky. HR is getting a split shot nerf but major buffs in other areas. I know there will be crying about this after mod3, from non-hrs and am a bit nervous that the crying will happen as the devs are considering how to rework the class.
A 3 on 1 match-up should never go in favour of the single person. It's completely out of balance with every other class in the game. Yet time and time again I see perma-stealth TR's doing this.
I don't care how they fix it, but the way I look at it, 1 on 1 should be a toss up and 2 on 1 should be extremely dangerous for anyone. 3 on 1 should be just next to impossible, instead of a regularly occurring show that you can witness at the node closest to your spawn.
A 3 on 1 match-up should never go in favour of the single person. It's completely out of balance with every other class in the game. Yet time and time again I see perma-stealth TR's doing this.
I don't care how they fix it, but the way I look at it, 1 on 1 should be a toss up and 2 on 1 should be extremely dangerous for anyone. 3 on 1 should be just next to impossible, instead of a regularly occurring show that you can witness at the node closest to your spawn.
Yes, it is all about creating a condition in which your team has a numerical advantage over the other team on a given node. 3 nodes 5 players a team. Leave home node to the troll tr. That means the other team has 1 player less to help them vs the 5 on your team. Also an HR is a good counter-tr provided all else is equal. There are all kinds of ways to deal with permastealth. The last and worst of these imo is a nerf.
Comments
Yep, if we compare the GWF to every class in the game they'd be considered the most powerful, but it'll change by mod 3 since the feat that made them burst-y (Deep Gash) is getting a significant rework. This way Sentinels won't be dealing too much damage for taking a T1 Destroyer Feat. TR's and HR's are next in line but HR's wreck TR's regardless of build as they have ironically more tricks than TR's. PS. If my CW had an HR skill, I'd much rather have Aspect of the Lone Wolf. That thing is crazy for PVP.
And yeah I'm sure you'll find Bile to be very helpful against TR's. It doesn't work very well with skills that hit slowly, but when used with RoF or Steal Time + Dodge Cancel and you basically have a reusable way to take the TR out of Stealth while kiting him on a node. And once he's out of Stealth, RoF will be stacking Biles on him regardless if he's in ITC or not. Have fun and good luck, Rip.
Hey, Elf. Perfect timing. Maybe you can test a couple of stuff in Preview? If you need a Bile I can send one to you as soon as you accept. I'm thinking the following DC skills can stack Bile pretty well but I don't have a geared or level 60 DC to test these theories.
- Forgemaster's Flame: DoT's seem to behave differently with Bilethorn, stacking 1 Bile per DoT tick as observed from the CW's Scorching Burst. So in theory, FMF would most probably land lasting damage ticks with stacks of Bilethorn in the process.
- Brand of the Sun: Same as above.
- Punishing Light: This At-Will seems to behave a whole lot like Ray of Frost. It's a "ray" skill that hits very quickly within a short span of time and it may be possible that this skill hits as fast or probably faster than Ray of Frost, effectively stacking Bilethorn ticks similar to the TR's Duelist's Flurry and the CW's Ray of Frost.
Lastly, the Dread Ring Boon, Burning Guidance, is also effective in damaging a TR in Stealth when DC's use Astral Shield. It doesn't stack Bile but it's another way to stack some damage on TR's to take him out of Stealth faster. That's basically it. I haven't had the chance to test with a DC yet but I'm confident these 3 skills would show favorable results when paired with Bilethorn.
I did own a lesser bile for testing. From my testing experience, FF only proc bile at its first tick but not every tick of it, i think the same thing apply to Bots. However our divine at will punishing light is bugged for near a year where stop casting it will remove nearly all debuff on our target, basically become a free cleanse for enemy. It removes bile ticks, plaguefire ticks, high prophet debuff etc after PL ends so it kills the idea of bile cleric (i actually buy the bile to synergy with PL, but it doesn't work at all....)
For more infos abt cleric changes and bug kindly visit here at preview forum.
Jugger Conq GF
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When stealthed a TR in PvE is useful, but still limited by mob hp.
When stealthed a TR in PvP is difficult to counter without Area of Effect spells.
Solution - change how much stealth meter is removed by damage to a higher factor and 1 clip by the right At-Will or Enounter will reveal the TR.
CW's should equip some Area of Effect spell like Steal Time or Icy Terrain when their team is getting destroyed by a twin-perma back-cap team. It only takes 8 secs to change in an ability (can be done riding on mount) to help the team.
That sucks, but on the one hand this saves me a lot of time in testing. Thanks for imparting these information, they're definitely useful.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
ffs throw up an aoe. I just said above, thornward and split the sky (on hr) will bring a tr out of stealth, once that happens, constricting, disruptive, and fox shift will kill him.
Stealth TRs are a nuisance class like HR, stealth only becomes a game changer when they are able to troll you into trying to take that node they are camping. If you cant beat him quick, forget about it. It gives you a 5v4 advantage on the other nodes.
Jugger Conq GF
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I got shard, icy terrain, steal time or a daily no TR is going to get caught by 3 of those and one he has to be decently close to get hit.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Very buggy enchant but it appeared to interrupt the TR's rotation and stealthing around me as I was moving and catching him quite often.
I still can be killed ridiculously fast by their burst, and perma stealth is super annoying trying to get that first couple hits on him. But I felt at least helpful in the match as we won and I finished in the top 5 in every stat. I will play with it more and return what information I can gather based on my experience.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
And no other class can do it better than CW's. Only downside is that CW's will still have trouble with 1 vs 1's with basically any class due to their innate defensive disadvantages.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I'm also thinking that Spellstorm Mages that can generate loads of AP can use Maelstrom of Chaos + Dodge Cancel in order to act as a CC breaker + Damage Reduction/CC Immunity mechanic. I'll test it out in Preview as to how often I'll be able to pull this one off.
Hr's are not the squishiest class, if built right they are one of the more tankier ones in game. Hr's are one of the best classes to deal with Tr's in game aside form another tr. Which leads me to believe your hr was not built for survival, or not much gs compared to opponents.
As a HR you should be one of the last people having problems with a tr. Everything else you said pretty much rant like so not gonna bother.
I do agree we need to have matchmaking based on GS, but you shot yourself in the foot when you said hunters are the squishiest class, you clearly know nothing about pvp or about the hunter class, or GG.
Oh yeah those deflect hrs are really tanky. They can also eat half of your hp bar with one fox shift:)
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I think the CW has a lot to not like about how the class fits into pvp, but to me that is a pvp problem, not a stealth problem.
Jugger Conq GF
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Not to pound on this post even more, but really something should be said about the part I quoted. Aimed shot from forest ghost is probably the easiest, cheesiest near-sure fire kill of any combo in the game and it belongs exclusively to the HR. A 30+k crit from stealth. Follow that with constricting>rush>foxshift>steel breeze and you have an almost sure fire 2 kills in the space of a few seconds. Not to mention 2 tanks vs 2 tanks on (say) mid and you can pretty much freely spam split shot and just level the entire node...there is a reason we get focused as HRs. Playing both classes, but playing hr a lot more, HR has zero room to complain about the cheesiness of tr stealth. Will I troll a good tr that I cant consistently kill and who causes me all kinds of rotation problems and some deaths in-game? You bet. But in any serious discussion...no way.
Jugger Conq GF
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not to mention that they may save it for when they are about to die.
i near-killed a hunter just for him to stealth and hide. i knew aimed shot was coming, but there is no way i can dodge it without a single sign that it's about to fire and my ITC is usually on cooldown when that happens. pretty much 10k+ damage guaranteed.
I don't think I am skilled enough to "hide in plain sight", I need to get behind something or out of line of sight for forest ghost stealth to work for me. So I never use it when I am about to die- I'll save it for respawn when I know I can go right back to the same node, fg properly and aimed shot with a near certainty of a kill.
There are hrs way better than me. I am just getting a taste of the power of this class and trying to use it to win matches.
On topic: I am always against nerfs. As much as I hate it when a better player who happens to be a tr, makes me look stupid in domination, I will never come on here and say stealth should be nerfed. Same with gwf, which is about to get spanked. I would rather see other classes improved than some be brought down. A lot of people in the pvp community already know that hr is "op" on many levels, but not many people want to come here and say so because they dont want hit with a nerf. Instead they are rolling hrs.
My suggestion to people who have a real problem fighting vs a specific class is to roll that class yourself. My experience is that there is a weird synergy that goes like this: if you suck vs "x" class, you'll probably be good at "x" class, or at least you'll have a lot of fun playing it. That times a million for tr stealth.
Jugger Conq GF
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There's an old saying in the old-school pvp community that goes, "better everyone nerfed than everyone buffed".
Well there are clear reasons to this, which is;
(1) When something is considered OP and a nerf is requested, it is usually when that "something" has been play-tested against almost everything else, and has been proven to be dominatingly powerful than others. This means there is usually a lot of evidence to support just exactly how much it is more poweful in what kind of manner, how it is reacting to what given condition. Hence, when you nerf it, you nerf that one class/skill as compared to others. It is like hammering back in the single nail that is protruding.
However, when you try and buff everything else to the same level, you are essentially changing multiple classes/skills at once, introducing it to the game. With every new thing/effect/change that is implemented in the game there are repercussions, and since you have just increased everyone else upto that "OP" level... I'll leave it up to you to imagine what things may potentially go wrong.
(2) Another reason is... the game isn't really as fun as one might expect if everyone is high-performance. Its sorta like the PvP version of the Cold War. Everyone is so darn powerful (especially in the offense) that nobody takes risks. Everyone plays it totally "safe". Everyone is way too timid in everything, and why not? If they make one wrong step, there's no coming back from it, you become so much disadvantaged upto levels you can't possibly recover, that the game's essentially over. In other words.. the game's just not fun anymore.
Compared to that, everyone being at lower performance is actually a lot more fun in most cases. Hence, when there is an OP-related balance problem, the standard measure for most developers is to nerf it down to the level of others, rather than try and bring everything else up to the OP level.
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This is a story from some other game, the developers same Cryptic. The super-hero game Champion Online has huge amounts damage buff-stacking possible... and there is also a certain "total invisibility + speed debuff immunity + 3-dimensional movement + very fast movement" travel power called "Teleport".
When built right, you may be squishy, but you have total control over when and how to engage so it doesn't really matter. Since you're moving all over the air space at super speeds while invisible, and then pour out nauseating amounts of damage spiking with your alpha attack, naturally this kind of build is frickin' totally frustrating to fight against -- unless you have the same build.
So when two of these guys show up at the same time, what happens is one of them does that shi* to the other guy. The other guy then does the same in vengeance. After that, those two guys disappear from the field. What happens is both of them are flying around everywhere in teleportation, trying to back-stab the other guy when he shows up and attacks a 3rd person.. so naturally, both are waiting for an opportunity while not taking any risks by showing up and fighting someone else... and hence, the end result is there ARE no fights at all, just two guys randomly moving around in invisibility, and the game ends up a draw.
About the most stale, stupid, just-not-fun type of games happen when everyone is slingling a tactical nuke-launcher as a sidearm.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I think you make some really good general points here, but they only really apply if the request to nerf is actually based in playtesting and objective evaluation. Right now there are only 3 classes that are underpowered in pvp: cw, dc, and gf. That leaves HR, gwf, and tr as the balanced classes. So do we nerf THREE classes (not 1) or do we buff three classes? I think the answer lies in just how much the calls of OP are actually predicated in objective analysis and not just qq rants.
I think most of the calls for a tr or gwf nerf are qq rants. There are effective ways to deal with both of these classes. I think the calls for cw, gf, and dc buffs are justified- they are underpowered (especially cw). The idea is not to make them op, just to balance the classes.
Jugger Conq GF
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Well, it looks like at least one of the classes is already being nerfed (GWF), so that leaves HRs and TRs. HRs are going to have a lot of changes so it's still questionable of where they are going to be after, and TRs are untouched. Additionally, the devs seem to want longer PVP fights, so they are focusing their nerfs to offensive skills, rather than buffing other to match.
I am seeing some emerging builds for gwf using swordmaster path and mod3 that are actually better (theoretically) than iv sents currently are. Better as in do more damage and still be very tanky. HR is getting a split shot nerf but major buffs in other areas. I know there will be crying about this after mod3, from non-hrs and am a bit nervous that the crying will happen as the devs are considering how to rework the class.
Jugger Conq GF
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A 3 on 1 match-up should never go in favour of the single person. It's completely out of balance with every other class in the game. Yet time and time again I see perma-stealth TR's doing this.
I don't care how they fix it, but the way I look at it, 1 on 1 should be a toss up and 2 on 1 should be extremely dangerous for anyone. 3 on 1 should be just next to impossible, instead of a regularly occurring show that you can witness at the node closest to your spawn.
Yes, it is all about creating a condition in which your team has a numerical advantage over the other team on a given node. 3 nodes 5 players a team. Leave home node to the troll tr. That means the other team has 1 player less to help them vs the 5 on your team. Also an HR is a good counter-tr provided all else is equal. There are all kinds of ways to deal with permastealth. The last and worst of these imo is a nerf.
Jugger Conq GF
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