Is Stealth going to be changed to avoid perma-stealth?

tourage16

I heard it would be changed I don't know how, to avoid perma stealth, something like that. Does anyone know if it's true?

I don't play perma, It's just curiosity.

todesfaelle

No one really knows for sure but the devs have raised their interest in changing some parts of the mechanic to make it so that we get to keep permastealth (dubbed as "super stealth" as per devs on their live stream) while still making it more challenging to whip out attacks while in Stealth.

tourage16

I wish they increased the time of stealth on the bar and reduced the bonus stealth the skills give, so this way you can only use stealth once, for a long time, instead of using it all the time... They should nerf perma and increase the damage of combat TR... But also reduce a bit the damage of shocking execution, it's a bit OP =P

godlysoul2

tourage16 wrote: »

I wish they increased the time of stealth on the bar and reduced the bonus stealth the skills give, so this way you can only use stealth once, for a long time, instead of using it all the time... They should nerf perma and increase the damage of combat TR... But also reduce a bit the damage of shocking execution, it's a bit OP =P

I seriously doubt stealth duration will be changed as a result, but stealth will be nerfed.

1) They just added more stealth capability to the game with +30% stealth gear.
2) Last time they tried to make abilities drain stealth it caused enormous community uproar which lead to it not being implemented or discussed again for a very long time.
3) Rogues are extremely vulnerable with less stealth. They have a higher dependency on their class trait than other classes to survive.
4) The most recent change to nerf stealth was the introduction of the lantern, which was a way to combat stealth without altering stealth duration. Also, the two mentioned changes that are being tested both do not involve methods which affect stealth duration in any way.

Either way, it never hurts to have a GWF or HR alt to switch to if they do take the nerfing too far.

jinadu

I hope so because I cant stand fighting perma-stealth TRs in pvp they are just lame and annoying.

limeye3

I hope perma-stealth will stay ingame, however i strongly am for 'stealth nerf'.
Perma-stealth takes by far the most skill in this game, landing a DF takes more skill than anything on a HR for example.

I do however hope perma-stealth will become harder as it is right now, cause its too easy in my opinion.

If they'd reduce stealth times and all that stuff trickster rogues would need a complete rework to balance out defense etc. cause lets be honest, have you ever seen a cookie cutter live longer than 1 minute?

kweassa

1. As it is, stealth is the only real defense for a TR. At the same time, stealth is also a very powerful offensive tool as well.

2. While stealth does not directly buff defenses, invisibility generally guarantees 0 damage -- in a sense, it is an ironic form of "100% mitigation". As a form of defense it is hands down the most powerful one in the game. No denying this fact. You can't hit what you can't see.

3. Stealth is also a form of a damage buff, at least 15% base damage increase by itself. With crit-severity buffs, the anticipated amount of damage may easily rise more than twice the normal.

4. Stealth is also an incredibly powerful tactical tool. Ambushes, combat positioning, escape attempts, etc etc.

5. Put together points 1, 2, 3, 4, and it is pretty evident that going into stealth increases both defense and offense of the TR up to very high levels, much higher than most other classes would be able to dream of.

6. Point 5 suggests that originally, the TR was intended as a class that fluctuates drastically in its efficiency. An unstable and fun character to play, having its "UP" moments while in stealth, and it has its clear "DOWN" moments when it is out of stealth.

7. Hence, I very strongly suspect that "perma" was never intended, and the developers simply overlooked the possibility that it might happen. Clearly, a TR with points 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 combined together and does not dissipate ever, no matter how you look at it... yeah. Its OP.


It takes skill to manage a perma. That's for sure. But would it take more skill than any other classes that need to constantly worry about both defense and offense? .... I really don't think so.

For a TR, unless being caught totally off-guard, as long as you can react and activate stealth just prior to the fight, you're never attacked if you choose not to be attacked, and yet you can attack anyone you want -- as long as you are in stealth... and for permas.. stealth does not run out.

todesfaelle

Then again, no matter how much reason we put in our arguments, they still fall under assumptions. We all have our own reasons as to why we think something is valid or not. But yes, I agree, clearly permastealth wasn't intended. Originally in Alpha, the TR was a Trickster, not a beat stick or an untouchable ghost. But regardless of whether such a play style was intended or not, we have been given legit tools to achieve such a play style. A lot of things in the game, and most other MMO's, were never really intended by the game developers but were discovered to be effective by players themselves. This is what makes MMORPG's really fun. There are a lot of other unique and creative synergistic play styles out there just waiting to be unearthed, and in my humble opinion the process of discovering these hidden treasures is the absolute most fulfilling journey in any MMO.

There are still many undiscovered specs, some of them are known by a few people but decided not to post them in the forums anyway, because people enjoy the uniqueness. I for one am a big fan of Ant-Monster's High General Buff GF spec and GCTRL's DPS DC spec. Those are specs I never thought would be possible or effective, and reading their guides were really entertaining and informative.

I'll be posting a new CW spec in the near future that abuses a mechanic that some CW's seem to have missed. Been out there for a long time. It basically gives the Wizard the ability to spam their PVE encounters with an effective CD of roughly 4 seconds for each encounter. Very fun and fast-paced spec and it seems it has some solo capabilities for Epic Dungeons as well. There's also a GWF spec, tested and legit as well, that abuses some synergistic GWF mechanics that will allow GWF's to have Damage Immunity for an indefinite amount of time provided they can chain their combos well. Still trying to find some fun stuff for DC's and HR's but so far things look pretty bland for those classes.

ripyourlipsoff

I have no issue with Perma Stealth as a playstyle, however the fact they can endlessly throw blades in stealth needs to go... Ridiculous they can stand afar invisible while using at wills!


I think attacks should remove stealth forcing the Rogue to use encounters for their crazy opening instead of playing with you in stealth taking off massive amount of your HP pool throwing blades.

ripyourlipsoff

How so? Standing against the wall and throwing blades at your target until they have 30% HP while they frantically look for you, then stroll up and perform your opening for the instakill is hard?

limeye3 wrote: »

I hope perma-stealth will stay ingame, however i strongly am for 'stealth nerf'.
Perma-stealth takes by far the most skill in this game, landing a DF takes more skill than anything on a HR for example.

I do however hope perma-stealth will become harder as it is right now, cause its too easy in my opinion.

If they'd reduce stealth times and all that stuff trickster rogues would need a complete rework to balance out defense etc. cause lets be honest, have you ever seen a cookie cutter live longer than 1 minute?

reiwulf

New mobs and bosses in Mod3 will see through stealth. I'm thinking that'll change things pretty dramatically for TRs.

godlysoul2

reiwulf wrote: »

New mobs and bosses in Mod3 will see through stealth. I'm thinking that'll change things pretty dramatically for TRs.

I bet it wont be long before they add that ability for all bosses too.

reiwulf

That would actually suck a lot, not all of us TRs are perma, but that doesn't mean we don't use stealth in boss battles. Our class skill being useless in boss battles would just make TRs even LESS useful in PVE.

shrewguy

kweassa wrote: »

1. As it is, stealth is the only real defense for a TR. At the same time, stealth is also a very powerful offensive tool as well.

ITC and my shift dodge, stealth isn't my only defence, not by a long shot. (you can also use bloodbath defensively if your daily is up, but I prefer to save my daily for SE in PvP and lurkers in PvE)

kweassa wrote: »

2. While stealth does not directly buff defenses, invisibility generally guarantees 0 damage -- in a sense, it is an ironic form of "100% mitigation". As a form of defense it is hands down the most powerful one in the game. No denying this fact. You can't hit what you can't see.

Path of Blades, I assure you that I CAN hit what I can't see.

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

I have no issue with Perma Stealth as a playstyle, however the fact they can endlessly throw blades in stealth needs to go... Ridiculous they can stand afar invisible while using at wills!


I think attacks should remove stealth forcing the Rogue to use encounters for their crazy opening instead of playing with you in stealth taking off massive amount of your HP pool throwing blades.

This is an awful idea.. most of my DPS in PvE comes from using DF and stealthing for increased damage. if at-wills take me out of stealth, I'll no longer be able to use it to increase my DPS against bosses. If my DPS against bosses goes down, I loose my only point in being taken on a dungeon.



Honestly, the easy solution to dealing with the perma-stealth issue would be that if a player takes damage from a stealthed player, the stealthier becomes visible to the victim for a few seconds.

that way, a stealthed rogue can pick on a squishy target without the full team jumping him, but the squishy target is granted a window of opportunity to retaliate instead of being defenceless.


But in all honestly, PvP has bigger issues than perma-stealth.

sasoras445

shrewguy wrote: »

ITC and my shift dodge, stealth isn't my only defence, not by a long shot. (you can also use bloodbath defensively if your daily is up, but I prefer to save my daily for SE in PvP and lurkers in PvE)


This is an awful idea.. most of my DPS in PvE comes from using DF and stealthing for increased damage. if at-wills take me out of stealth, I'll no longer be able to use it to increase my DPS against bosses. If my DPS against bosses goes down, I loose my only point in being taken on a dungeon.



Honestly, the easy solution to dealing with the perma-stealth issue would be that if a player takes damage from a stealthed player, the stealthier becomes visible to the victim for a few seconds.

that way, a stealthed rogue can pick on a squishy target without the full team jumping him, but the squishy target is granted a window of opportunity to retaliate instead of being defenceless.


But in all honestly, PvP has bigger issues than perma-stealth.

A few seconds is all it takes to knock them out of stealth though if they were visible.

Honestly if they were really gonna Nerf stealth They might as well change the entire core of the class, since were talking about a nerf to a tab skill supported by feats, and encounters and gear bonuses.

And you can get hit during bloodbath, so i dont see how defensive that's supposed to be,certain moves can still daze you while in itc, and dodge well, all classes have that, but your have like 2.

They might s well scrap stealth meter, and make stealth infinite uptime, but any dmg or atk activation will throw them out of it., but they can go back in stealth constantly with 0.5 seconds cd. So you will always catch glimpses of them in their general location.

Although they seemingly become more like shadow dancers then rogues...

1.Either that or implement sound fx based walking distance

2.introduce an emote to search and concentrate on stealth chars ie looking for them, but leaving themselves in a prone like state and can be interrupted.

todesfaelle

Even just prolonged Stealth in itself can be terribly problematic for the unprepared, but there are already a lot of counters present in the game which surprisingly isn't known by many for some reason as there are still a lot to discover in the game. Usually these sort of information and discoveries appear on the first few months the game is out. Anyway. Apologies in advance for the terrible quality, but what do you guys think of these possible CW counters for TR's in Stealth?

Ray of Frost + Bilethorn: This video aims to show how Ray of Frost is synergistic with Bilethorn, similar to how Duelist's Flurry is as synergistic with Bilethorn. It shows how much Bilethorn stacks Ray of Frost will land within 4 seconds, making it a good attack to use for CW's while the TR is under ITC. It'll land the stacks, and the TR will have to wait to Stealth up until the Bilethorn stack duration is over which is well more than 5 seconds, which risks him getting CC-ed to death, or the TR will enter Stealth after he uses ITC immediately which screws up his rotation as he will definitely go out of Stealth faster than intended.
Steal Time Cancellation + Bilethorn: This one's for taking out the TR's inside Stealth. Steal Time has a mechanic where it goes into a 4 second CD whenever a player cancels it with Dodge, but while it's casting, Steal Time will land a LOT of Bilethorn stacks on the opponent (seen or unseen), as shown in the video. Steal Time has a very good range which covers mostly the node if cast from the middle (but I know sometimes we just don't get the luxury of being able to cast it in the middle), and the casting animation will also slow down the surrounding opponents. This means that if the Stealthed TR is in range, he will be slowed down while being landed with Bilethorn stacks to screw up his rotation. The slow effect lasts even after the casting animation is over, making the TR move at walking speed. If the TR doesn't get hit, the CW can try again after 4 seconds which goes by pretty quickly, making it pretty much spammable. This is a rinse and repeat process. The TR's can chuck daggers at the CW from range, but then again, what exactly can 8 chucks of daggers do to a decently geared CW?

I was playing around with the free video screencap program I got yesterday and thought I'd try recording something, this is what I came up with. I'll be posting a (cheesy) CW build in the near future and It'll have these features, as well as more neat tricks up its sleeves.

fungchao

Making perma-stealth only available to Saboteur paragon feats could be a viable solution

slushlikewind

Honsetly there are not even that much good Permas out there.

Most players that complain about perma TR simply lacks the skill or knowledge required to fight one.

I see no need of nerfing stealth. Only thing that would need to be nerfed is SE. Everything else on TR are actually balanced imo.

It is just like no one is whining about nerfing DC now because they already got nerfed, but few understand that even in current patch a DC is still tough as hack if you know how to build and play one, which 99% of the DC don't. I would really hope the Dev don't let those 10k gs PUG steer them into nerfing a class's sinificant feature when it is actually balanced.

jazzfong

slushlikewind wrote: »

It is just like no one is whining about nerfing DC now because they already got nerfed, but few understand that even in current patch a DC is still tough as hack if you know how to build and play one, which 99% of the DC don't. I would really hope the Dev don't let those 10k gs PUG steer them into nerfing a class's sinificant feature when it is actually balanced.

Show me how the 1% cleric you said can bully other classes at equal gs and equal BIS geared. I will like to know about it and willing to learn from them. In my opinion, DC can only stale another for a while, and die because of Healing Depression decreasing our heals. We cannot stalemate someone anymore after the patch, unless our target is severely undergeared. Btw I am just a nubbish inexperienced casual pug pvp cleric who just popped in to learn about ways to counter a perma and their weakness... but i found none here.... (So sorry if i dunno anything abt high end pvps, but i am willing to learn~~)

My question is: Does Bilehorn ticks from DC or briatwine ticks effectively drain perma's stealth meter??

f2pma

jazzfong wrote: »

Show me how the 1% cleric you said can bully other classes at equal gs and equal BIS geared. I will like to know about it and willing to learn from them. In my opinion, DC can only stale another for a while, and die because of Healing Depression decreasing our heals. We cannot stalemate someone anymore after the patch, unless our target is severely undergeared. Btw I am just a nubbish inexperienced casual pug pvp cleric who just popped in to learn about ways to counter a perma and their weakness... but i found none here.... (So sorry if i dunno anything abt high end pvps, but i am willing to learn~~)

My question is: Does Bilehorn ticks from DC or briatwine ticks effectively drain perma's stealth meter??

bile yes briatwine no coz other permas would be using it to

godlysoul2

todesfaelle wrote: »

Even just prolonged Stealth in itself can be terribly problematic for the unprepared, but there are already a lot of counters present in the game which surprisingly isn't known by many for some reason as there are still a lot to discover in the game. Usually these sort of information and discoveries appear on the first few months the game is out. Anyway. Apologies in advance for the terrible quality, but what do you guys think of these possible CW counters for TR's in Stealth?

Ray of Frost + Bilethorn: This video aims to show how Ray of Frost is synergistic with Bilethorn, similar to how Duelist's Flurry is as synergistic with Bilethorn. It shows how much Bilethorn stacks Ray of Frost will land within 4 seconds, making it a good attack to use for CW's while the TR is under ITC. It'll land the stacks, and the TR will have to wait to Stealth up until the Bilethorn stack duration is over which is well more than 5 seconds, which risks him getting CC-ed to death, or the TR will enter Stealth after he uses ITC immediately which screws up his rotation as he will definitely go out of Stealth faster than intended.
Steal Time Cancellation + Bilethorn: This one's for taking out the TR's inside Stealth. Steal Time has a mechanic where it goes into a 4 second CD whenever a player cancels it with Dodge, but while it's casting, Steal Time will land a LOT of Bilethorn stacks on the opponent (seen or unseen), as shown in the video. Steal Time has a very good range which covers mostly the node if cast from the middle (but I know sometimes we just don't get the luxury of being able to cast it in the middle), and the casting animation will also slow down the surrounding opponents. This means that if the Stealthed TR is in range, he will be slowed down while being landed with Bilethorn stacks to screw up his rotation. The slow effect lasts even after the casting animation is over, making the TR move at walking speed. If the TR doesn't get hit, the CW can try again after 4 seconds which goes by pretty quickly, making it pretty much spammable. This is a rinse and repeat process. The TR's can chuck daggers at the CW from range, but then again, what exactly can 8 chucks of daggers do to a decently geared CW?

I was playing around with the free video screencap program I got yesterday and thought I'd try recording something, this is what I came up with. I'll be posting a (cheesy) CW build in the near future and It'll have these features, as well as more neat tricks up its sleeves.

Looks good. Can't wait to see more of this in action. It does stack better than I would've thought. I also noticed myself that not all bilethorn hits show up sometimes as separate hits but will still take effect in the combat log so I'm sure that bile CW should have no problem against perma rogues if played well. I'm going to be having some fun on a melee tank HR with bilethorn to mess some permas up in the near future

f2pma

todesfaelle wrote: »

Even just prolonged Stealth in itself can be terribly problematic for the unprepared, but there are already a lot of counters present in the game which surprisingly isn't known by many for some reason as there are still a lot to discover in the game. Usually these sort of information and discoveries appear on the first few months the game is out. Anyway. Apologies in advance for the terrible quality, but what do you guys think of these possible CW counters for TR's in Stealth?

Ray of Frost + Bilethorn: This video aims to show how Ray of Frost is synergistic with Bilethorn, similar to how Duelist's Flurry is as synergistic with Bilethorn. It shows how much Bilethorn stacks Ray of Frost will land within 4 seconds, making it a good attack to use for CW's while the TR is under ITC. It'll land the stacks, and the TR will have to wait to Stealth up until the Bilethorn stack duration is over which is well more than 5 seconds, which risks him getting CC-ed to death, or the TR will enter Stealth after he uses ITC immediately which screws up his rotation as he will definitely go out of Stealth faster than intended.
Steal Time Cancellation + Bilethorn: This one's for taking out the TR's inside Stealth. Steal Time has a mechanic where it goes into a 4 second CD whenever a player cancels it with Dodge, but while it's casting, Steal Time will land a LOT of Bilethorn stacks on the opponent (seen or unseen), as shown in the video. Steal Time has a very good range which covers mostly the node if cast from the middle (but I know sometimes we just don't get the luxury of being able to cast it in the middle), and the casting animation will also slow down the surrounding opponents. This means that if the Stealthed TR is in range, he will be slowed down while being landed with Bilethorn stacks to screw up his rotation. The slow effect lasts even after the casting animation is over, making the TR move at walking speed. If the TR doesn't get hit, the CW can try again after 4 seconds which goes by pretty quickly, making it pretty much spammable. This is a rinse and repeat process. The TR's can chuck daggers at the CW from range, but then again, what exactly can 8 chucks of daggers do to a decently geared CW?

I was playing around with the free video screencap program I got yesterday and thought I'd try recording something, this is what I came up with. I'll be posting a (cheesy) CW build in the near future and It'll have these features, as well as more neat tricks up its sleeves.

plz post this on library page so they can l2p
i have yet to see cw sloting bile

ripyourlipsoff

f2pma wrote: »

plz post this on library page so they can l2p
i have yet to see cw sloting bile

Yea thats it? The entire CW base and other ALL need to L2P....... Permastealth is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> exploit and needs going!

f2pma

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

Yea thats it? The entire CW base and other ALL need to L2P....... Permastealth is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> exploit and needs going!

did u even try that combo ?well try it first then come again.
or maybe you want free kills like in pve

i have yet to see a decent balance tr post.
all suggestions so far were revenge,nerf,hate tr posts from very
frustrated people.

ripyourlipsoff

f2pma wrote: »

did u even try that combo ?well try it first then come again.
or maybe you want free kills like in pve

i have yet to see a decent balance tr post.
all suggestions so far were revenge,nerf,hate tr posts from very
frustrated people.

Yes I did, and it frails in comparison to Plague Fire, Having the dot tick after is no different then stacking 3 stacks of Plague Fire burning and stacking 3 x 15% defense mitigation.

Perma Stealth gives amazing Defense and Amazing Offense! This is the problem with it, by using perma stealth there is no downside... Other classes sacrifice control for survival, or offense for defense / hp etc... TR can just go perma and suffer NO loss!


It's lame and need to be changed. Perma Stealth needs to have a down side to having the ability to stay INVISIBLE!!!!

You should be a delicate flower out of stealth, yet thats not the case dodging, and deflecting, Impossible to Catch.... its ridiculous. Massive Burst, or the ability to Troll ppl from afar with throwing blades that do crazy damage and DO NOT remove stealth actually taking targets down to 30% hp, and then the ability to completely negate everything and run away?


Come on!

todesfaelle

f2pma wrote: »

plz post this on library page so they can l2p
i have yet to see cw sloting bile

I will. And I'll eventually be posting some duels with other TR's I know as well just to see how it'd fare against beasts. GWF's are still out of the question, however.

So far I agree that this is partially an L2P issue, but the other half is CW's are REALLY, REALLY underpowered for PVP and they're below DC's to be quite honest. It's hard to PVP as a CW when playing against players spec-ed for defensive play and attrition unless you are a Meatball Thaum. I also observed that CW's are too attached to their PVE godliness, so naturally it'll be hard for them to spec to a more PVP-oriented build. This leads to them being steamrolled in PVP with their PVE skirt-wearing toons. But even if they do spec for PVP, in high-end PVP they'll still be vastly underpowered due to the limited ways they can spec defensively. PVP is all about playing defensively and finding holes in your opponents' strategies, and CW's have absolutely zero means to play defensively unless they slot Shield, which is pretty much just a simple 10% increase in DR and a significant increase for DR on the first hit. Mostly every CW Class Feature is oriented for PVE, being offensive in nature that offers absolutely zero defensive features. Class Features are one of the main sources of defensive capabilities for nearly every defensive spec in every class. Not to mention mostly all their Heroic and Paragon Feats are oriented towards increasing their firepower.

CW's are in dire need of a buff for PVP, and needs to be put in line with other classes for PVE as they make end-game content effortless exclusively for their own kind. Fact still remains though, that this isn't just an L2P issue. It is partially contributing to the growing incessant demands of Wizards, but we absolutely can't deny the fact that CW's are in a bad spot right now for PVP. They need a rework, and a big one if they are to be put in line for both PVP and PVE.

todesfaelle

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

<snip>

Can you post your character sheet, Rip?

ripyourlipsoff

todesfaelle wrote: »

Can you post your character sheet, Rip?

My GS is 14201

Still working on getting more gear, my HP is 26k in game I need more lots more... I am Thaum Specced with Shard slotted.



Problem is CW have no immunity to get away or get a cast off, Stunned, Proned, Rooted, right now means you are going to die. Add the fact some of our spells are bugged and randomly disappear, or don't cast off but are on cool down and you have a problem.

Unlike other classes we cannot spec into massive Offensive Beats with high mobility and have great utility Defense "GWF", or have escape abilities and PermaStealth with amazing burst potential TR. We are a support class right now and cannot really succeed unless we have a team with or in front of us! I tried Bile in PVP and extensively on the dummies changing back and forth and Plaguefire was in my opinion superior. The dot was bigger and seemed longer and the debuff it stacks helps a lot.

todesfaelle

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

My GS is 14201

Still working on getting more gear, my HP is 26k in game I need more lots more... I am Thaum Specced with Shard slotted.



Problem is CW have no immunity to get away or get a cast off, Stunned, Proned, Rooted, right now means you are going to die. Add the fact some of our spells are bugged and randomly disappear, or don't cast off but are on cool down and you have a problem.

Unlike other classes we cannot spec into massive Offensive Beats with high mobility and have great utility Defense "GWF", or have escape abilities and PermaStealth with amazing burst potential TR. We are a support class right now and cannot really succeed unless we have a team with or in front of us! I tried Bile in PVP and extensively on the dummies changing back and forth and Plaguefire was in my opinion superior. The dot was bigger and seemed longer and the debuff it stacks helps a lot.

Good, Shard CW. The only effective CW spec for PVP at the moment. I think you can understand it yourself that it's not really the TR's and GWF's that are overpowered, right? If you think about it carefully, what other classes have that allow them to perform in PVP that CW's don't are survival capabilities. DC's have their Healing, Bubbles if AC, or Feated Foresight + Astral Shield if DO, HR's have 6 Dodges and tons of defensive utility mechanics, TR's have Stealth and a vast variety of ways to spec for it, GF's have their CC, crazy AP gain and Block, GWF's have the best Burst + Mobility + Healing + Defense, while CW's have... basically, nothing of worth for this current meta. No defensive capabilities at all, and very little utility mechanics. This is why they are an under-performing class in PVP relegated to playing support. Burst DPS is meaningless in a PVP meta that does not promote it.

Us Permastealth Rogues, contrary to popular belief, have trouble beating HR's, GF's, and GWF's of similar skill level and gear. But we do get equal chances at beating each other as our biggest vulnerability is that we have to go into melee range while in Stealth and risk detection. We only get a break when we fight CW's, simply because they're pretty much paper to our blades. They die fastest and we're not afraid to go into melee range of a CW because melee is a the CW's biggest weakness. When you have the 5 other classes seemingly performing well in this current meta, while one is left to be incompetent, we can conclude that it's not exactly us that are overpowered. CW's have a severe problem for PVP and it needs to be fixed, not the other way around where every other class is put on the level of a CW. As for how the devs will do this, I'm not sure. But I've already posted a wide variety of ideas that supports buffing the defensive capabilities and utility mechanics of a Wizard. In competitive PVP, a good defense will lead to a strong offense as long as you can last until the opportunity to strike presents itself. CW's lack this good defense.

Second, Plague Fire DoT's, regardless of DPS is meaningless against a Rogue. PF can't take a Rogue out of Stealth, while Bilethorn can do it significantly faster than PF. Stealth is not drained based on the power of the attacks that hits the Rogue, Stealth is drained based on the type of damage dealt to the rogue and the amount of hits dealt. Bilethorn behaves in a strange manner where each tick is actually considered as 2 hits of damage which is why it takes TR's out of Stealth very quickly.

One short click of Scorching Burst dishes out this much Bilethorn ticks.
8 in total, 9 including the initial hit, but you'll only see 4 BT ticks on your screen.

DoTs, like the Flaming and PF DoT's deplete stealth significantly slower than the pure damage Bilethorn dishes out. Bilethorn ticks are not considered as DoT's. They're just plain "damage", and not special effects like DoT's. I highly recommend you give Bilethorn another shot. Not only does it work well against TR's, it also works well against the GF's Guard Meter, so that's another class out of your worries. You can keep your PF, but I recommend having a spare weapon slotted with at least a Normal Bilethorn when you encounter rogues.

ripyourlipsoff

todesfaelle wrote: »

Good, Shard CW. The only effective CW spec for PVP at the moment. I think you can understand it yourself that it's not really the TR's and GWF's that are overpowered, right? If you think about it carefully, what other classes have that allow them to perform in PVP that CW's don't are survival capabilities. DC's have their Healing, Bubbles if AC, or Feated Foresight + Astral Shield if DO, HR's have 6 Dodges and tons of defensive utility mechanics, TR's have Stealth and a vast variety of ways to spec for it, GF's have their CC, crazy AP gain and Block, GWF's have the best Burst + Mobility + Healing + Defense, while CW's have... basically, nothing of worth for this current meta. No defensive capabilities at all, and very little utility mechanics. This is why they are an under-performing class in PVP relegated to playing support. Burst DPS is meaningless in a PVP meta that does not promote it.

Us Permastealth Rogues, contrary to popular belief, have trouble beating HR's, GF's, and GWF's of similar skill level and gear. But we do get equal chances at beating each other as our biggest vulnerability is that we have to go into melee range while in Stealth and risk detection. We only get a break when we fight CW's, simply because they're pretty much paper to our blades. They die fastest and we're not afraid to go into melee range of a CW because melee is a the CW's biggest weakness. When you have the 5 other classes seemingly performing well in this current meta, while one is left to be incompetent, we can conclude that it's not exactly us that are overpowered. CW's have a severe problem for PVP and it needs to be fixed, not the other way around where every other class is put on the level of a CW. As for how the devs will do this, I'm not sure. But I've already posted a wide variety of ideas that supports buffing the defensive capabilities and utility mechanics of a Wizard. In competitive PVP, a good defense will lead to a strong offense as long as you can last until the opportunity to strike presents itself. CW's lack this good defense.

Second, Plague Fire DoT's, regardless of DPS is meaningless against a Rogue. PF can't take a Rogue out of Stealth, while Bilethorn can do it significantly faster than PF. Stealth is not drained based on the power of the attacks that hits the Rogue, Stealth is drained based on the type of damage dealt to the rogue and the amount of hits dealt. Bilethorn behaves in a strange manner where each tick is actually considered as 2 hits of damage which is why it takes TR's out of Stealth very quickly.

One short click of Scorching Burst dishes out this much Bilethorn ticks.
8 in total, 9 including the initial hit, but you'll only see 4 BT ticks on your screen.

DoTs, like the Flaming and PF DoT's deplete stealth significantly slower than the pure damage Bilethorn dishes out. Bilethorn ticks are not considered as DoT's. They're just plain "damage", and not special effects like DoT's. I highly recommend you give Bilethorn another shot. Not only does it work well against TR's, it also works well against the GF's Guard Meter, so that's another class out of your worries. You can keep your PF, but I recommend having a spare weapon slotted with at least a Normal Bilethorn when you encounter rogues.

Hmm, I get what your selling ... However GWF can kill anyone in the game so can we agree they are OP? TR are second only to GWF at this current time only really threatened by GWF... So they can be justly thrown in the OP mix, however other classes fair decent in PvP using what abilities they have. True the CW lacks any form of defensive ability to either help with damage taken or escapability. If the CW got a daily that allowed them to disappear like Forest Wolf for 4-5 seconds giving them a chance to get some distance I think they would be far better.

But as you said we shall wait and see, I for one will not care if we are tweaked to do less damage in pve, as long as our single target is buffed!

As for bile, I was unaware that Biles dot was NOT considered a dot... I will try it again as I still have the enchant in my bags I'll give it another shot.

jazzfong

How effectively a bilethorn on cleric kicks a perma out of stealth? Our encounters are limited and our fastest at-will is bugged and did not get a fix for months (or near a year.... dc got no love but only nerfs...)