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Any Chance for CW PVP Buffs?
degraafination
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Since the introduction of Tenacity, I've noticed that playing my BIS CW is downright awful. I'm serious considering giving up on the class entirely in PVP and focusing primarily on my HR and GWF for these reasons. The two benefits CWs had in PVP were...
1) Burst damage
2) Control
Tenacity has really nerfed both of those. We have no CC resistance and three dodges, which sounds like a lot, but when classes have abilities to instantly close gaps, it loses it's benefit fast.
I'd love to see some implementations like Stoneskin, Dimension Door or Etherealness put into play.
Thoughts?
1) Burst damage
2) Control
Tenacity has really nerfed both of those. We have no CC resistance and three dodges, which sounds like a lot, but when classes have abilities to instantly close gaps, it loses it's benefit fast.
I'd love to see some implementations like Stoneskin, Dimension Door or Etherealness put into play.
Thoughts?
Post edited by degraafination on
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Tenacity all it did was make us actually have to work harder then before, we are not underpowered and perhaps this class is not for you if you are having such a hard time with it.
HV is as good a choice as any of the PvP sets really, especially since the new batch really require you to swap out your jewellery too in order get a balanced set up. I'd be interested to know how you get on vs a GWF or TR that knows how to play, with the same gearscore as you. I've certainly found it a lot harder and CC staples now range from less useful (EF) to useless (Repel).
OP seems to have at least some idea how to play : https://www.google.co.uk/#q=neverwinter+PvP+trace
for control? yeah sure, but the dps have to be toned down first.
sorry man, you can't just disregard pve even if you dont like it.
but the healing from unstoppable is halved, I bet you didnt realized that.
And all of the suggestions that have been given here for CWs to counter TRs and GWFs are, frankly, lame. To counter TRs, CWs are supposed to spam Steal Time and Icy Terrain? LOL okay, so if the TR doesn't manage to dodge out of those, the first thing they do is pop ITC and they are immune again, only this time merely visible. They whittle you down with bile daggers from range and then land an undodgeable Shocking Execution. The only way a CW can even begin to attempt to counter this is to start from a completely PVP-focused CW setup, meaning Halfling and INT/CON rolls and foregoing AOE damage feats in favor of single target/personal survivability feats. No, sorry, that would totally destroy my character for PVE effectiveness so I won't do that.
PVE-oriented CWs don't stand a chance in PVP. And that's fine, if we were talking about the pre-Tenacity era. But the whole idea behind Tenacity was to try to level the playing field a bit and give all characters more of a chance at having an enjoyable PVP experience. Now, CWs are just worthless in PVP. So yeah, I'd be in favor of a CW buff *just to PVP alone*, maybe make it come in the form of CW-only Tenacity gear that won't be used in PVE.
Careful what you wish for, you just may get it.
Points, here, gets it. My best shot for a CW in PVP is against a DC or another CW. All other classes, if played correctly, can really wreck us. I have no issue against new players, PVE characters or all-around poor PVPers. The issue is when a good CW is put up against a good HR, GF, TR or GWF.
As for the L2P comments, I've been playing a CW as my main since Beta. For the most part, I haven't had any major issues until the recent PVP changes.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Yep, Repel was great when it actually repelled players. That gave me a chance against some good GWFs. Not so much now.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
I think this is the bad road TRs went down. Even now there are people madly pushing to keep perma builds viable and any mention of improving their PvE is quickly dismissed.
CW is a Controller, not a Striker. When Warlock (a Striker) come out, people that want a magic Striker can reroll for it. Then the CW DPS goes to something like DC, its control becomes 3x better than it is on PvP currently and most DPS spells are changed to match with a Control Wizard.
Having more than 2 CWs in a party will be bad, because then you'll not have enough DPS and too much control left. (Balance! Yay!)
I'm a 15,1k CW, it's my main and I would totally not care if I had to reroll my class completelly to achiev the real purpose of the lore of the class. I want to be a Controller, a puppet master and control my foes as I want to, not to kill them. Killing is for Warlocks and Sorcerers.
If they bring Warlock and Wizard continue being a Striker, having 2 caster Strikers, it will be such a ******* waste.
I agree that CWs should not be totally awesome at both simultaneously. (Right now CWs really aren't all that great at positional control, to be honest.) But being a CW isn't just about moving enemies around though. That is the point.
Anyone who claims that CWs don't need help in PvP spends their time steamrolling undergeared players and rarely takes on anyone close to their actual "bracket." With the exception of DC, CW is the least threatening class on the field (to anyone but a DC or another CW). Even were CWs not incredibly easy to shut down, their nominal CC advantage is hard-countered by Unstoppable, Block, Villain's Menace, ITC, random 100% resists.... As others have noted, the burst potential that used to offset this weakness somewhat is gone, and our only reliable zoning tool against melee focus, Repel, is now mostly ineffectual.
So yes, please help the CW in PvP. Rebalance PvE all you want as long as dungeons don't become unacceptably tedious as a result, but do something to prevent CWs from falling off so badly in the late game in PvP.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I think that was his point...
When the CW balance pass goes through, reducing the target cap will be something that could reduce issues in PvE while paving the way for buffs on the PvP side....
Agreed! Let's figure out a way to nerf then in PVE and buff PVP at the same time. Target caps?
The AoE hits everyone but the main target for less damage? Come on guys, CW needs a PVP buff and a PVE nerf, we all know it, let's work together rather than fight about it. There is a way to make everyone happy
Yeah, I don't care if one of my mains gets a PvE damage nerf; my only concern is that they could nerf CWs in a way that makes players compensate by increasing their demand for the class, as has happened with every significant CW nerf to date. Target caps lowered? LF1M CW! AP generation nerfed? LF2M CW! We'd all be swimming in tears of irony.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
But for me, since I only use one spell that Arp currently works with, I dumped all my Arp and put it into power, and I still hit like a truck--just not a super big truck:). I long stopped focusing on CC as soon as the HR came out really...and sometimes don't even slot Choke, if I am running in the right comp and with a partner. In this case I just slot Shard as my main CC>..which yes has its problems too.
On the whole, I find the game to me, to be the same as it was before...except the increase in gap closers for the tanks....that def makes the lack of reliable landing CC a real pain, and I try to play so that I don't even have to be in a position to be against these guys by myself..which in premades, I never was before patch either unless I had to body a node really quick...
I just did an in house last night where an Enemy GWF with Emblem, was assigned to shadow me, and that he did for over AN HOURr, it sucked hard--but every time we killed him and I was left to freecast, oh boy!!....we won in the end, but it was painful. You don't take out one player from a match to put strictly on CW if CW are weak.
I've always said that the biggest problem with balancing PvP is that we've never had anything but 5v5 domination. This is about to change and I think the result will be a lot more class balance.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
We also have GG, 20vs20, which will give us some good insight on what it will look like for CWs. That, combined with multiple companion bonuses giving players over 100% CC resist will be a nightmare for nearly all CWs.
On my HR and GWF, targeting a CW will be the first thing I look for in the new OW PVP.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
In most of the CW's spells, there is a tradeoff between control via position and control via damage.
Arcane Singularity is great at control via position, but lousy at control via damage.
Oppressive Force is great at control via damage, but not that great at control via position (it tends to scatter the mobs). Same with Shard.
Steal Time - great with control with position (makes everyone stationary) but lousy with control via damage (doesn't do much damage at all). Same with Entangling Force, except it only controls one mob at a time, or if in Spell Mastery, only the mobs nearby, and does almost no damage.
Conduit of Ice - great with control via damage, *fantastic* if the CW is Thaum due to debuffing, but not that great at control via position (it doesn't position the mobs at all), although it does add chill stacks.
Icy Rays - great with control via damage, especially if feated and in Spell Mastery, but lousy at control via position because it only affects a very small number of mobs - and in this case, the larger the number of mobs affected (greater control via position), the damage goes down (lesser control via damage).
So you see the yin-yang aspect of the CW's arsenal of abilities.
So when people say "nerf CW damage but boost CW control (by position only)", what they are really saying is to get rid of about half of the CW's entire list of encounters and dailies. I mean, there is no other point to Shard other than to blow up a bunch of mobs. It DOESN'T yield ANY control via position at all. You might as well just get rid of Shard entirely at that point.
Now I do think that, just like with the melee classes that there is a tradeoff between having high DPS/low defense and high defense/low DPS, that the same ought to apply to a CW as well when it comes to the two aspects of control. It appears that that was supposed to be the original intent of the three CW feat trees. Oppressor is supposed to be the one that is high control via position (focusing on chill stacks and freezing mobs in place) and low control via damage; Renegade is supposed to be the one that is high control via damage (focusing on crits so much) and low control via position. And Thaum was supposed to be this middle ground that did damage, just not directly via crits but instead via debuffing and DoT effects.
Now as we know, the "middle ground" Thaum feat tree turns out to be the best one in terms of dealing AOE damage, because Thaums still retained a substantial ability to control via position but the debuffing yielded much better results due to everyone's stat inflation. So Thaum CW's don't have to make the tradeoff between the different forms of control. They are able, more or less, to have the best of both worlds.
So if the Thaum feat tree is reworked so as to make the debuffing and DoT effects weaker, in order to create more of a forced choice between control via damage and control via position, then that would be fine.
But it would be absolutely wrong to just insist that CWs should not be able to deal high amounts of damage. CW's ought to be able to retain the ability to deal huge amounts of single-target damage if they so choose. But CW's who choose to spec so that this is possible ought to give up, substantially, the ability to control via positioning large numbers of mobs.