CW is fine. If you use meatball. Which works well with the new PVP set, faster cool down and more dmg.
If you run any other set up like Icy Ray on tab, Ray of Enfeeblement on tab you gonna have a hard time cause you won't do anything.
Being able to prone something is just too **** important. And meatball offers absolute ridiculous burst.(compare to other cw skills)
Overall CW is not in a really good spot but it is kind of like some other class: playable but don't expect to be OP or really strong. And the HR counters CW way too hard, I am not sure if that is even intended but good HR can kill a CW without even dropping too much HP.
Also, CW does have a really high skill cap. Mediocre CW are less useful due to tenacity, you can't just rely on some big crit to do the work for you, it needs you to be a more all-around player in order to make CW shine.
I think that sounds like a good idea. It would make that a must-have power, though; ideally, I'd like to see more viable options for all classes rather than being locked into the same few powers. Another point to consider is that CWs do have one power which grants cc immunity -- Maelstrom of Chaos. Of course, it's only for a single paragon path, so boosting that wouldn't address class issues in general (but it could still use a boost).
I get what you mean, man. It would definitely be awesome if CW's had a lot more defensive options to choose from other than just one skill. But then again, a lot of classes have some sort of defensive must-have powers, and so far only the CW doesn't have one. HR's have their Lone Wolf, TR's have the ITC, DC's have Astral Shield, GF's have Block and GWF's have Unstoppable (not really much choices for GF's and GWF's). So far CW's are the only class without some degree of defense. CW's have their CC and it was their main source of Defense. But now CW's from all over have been reporting that their CC's aren't viable anymore thanks to CC's being affected by Deflect. It would have been okay if it was only CC resistances, but Deflect should NOT affect CC duration in my humble opinion. Deflect is far too easy to stack despite its diminishing returns, which makes it pretty much overkill for PVP since we have Tenacity + Deflect that effectively kills the CW's overall effectiveness and purpose for PVP, even though I believe CC is what killed PVP in the first place which Tenacity helped fix. Having one effective defensive power would change a lot for CW's in my opinion. Some sort of defensive self-buff like most classes have would effectively increase the CW's overall survival capabilities; and Shield fits in the most with this criteria.
I get what you mean, man. It would definitely be awesome if CW's had a lot more defensive options to choose from other than just one skill. But then again, a lot of classes have some sort of defensive must-have powers, and so far only the CW doesn't have one. HR's have their Lone Wolf, TR's have the ITC, DC's have Astral Shield, GF's have Block and GWF's have Unstoppable (not really much choices for GF's and GWF's). So far CW's are the only class without some degree of defense. CW's have their CC and it was their main source of Defense. But now CW's from all over have been reporting that their CC's aren't viable anymore thanks to CC's being affected by Deflect. It would have been okay if it was only CC resistances, but Deflect should NOT affect CC duration in my humble opinion. Deflect is far too easy to stack despite its diminishing returns, which makes it pretty much overkill for PVP since we have Tenacity + Deflect that effectively kills the CW's overall effectiveness and purpose for PVP, even though I believe CC is what killed PVP in the first place which Tenacity helped fix. Having one effective defensive power would change a lot for CW's in my opinion. Some sort of defensive self-buff like most classes have would effectively increase the CW's overall survival capabilities; and Shield fits in the most with this criteria.
If CC is being affected by Deflect isn't that a bug though, and so should hopefully be fixed.
Yes I believe so as well. CC duration should not be affected by Deflect regardless if it's a bug or not, IMO. Tenacity and Racial CC Resistance is more than enough.
The simple truth is CWs arent Controllers in PVP. You can argue damage vs control, range vs melee(although there are no true melee classes in NW), single target vs area of effect all you wish but until CWs are able to control another class with predictable solid results they will continue to be nothing but a detriment to a PVP party. Every CW I've seen that thinks they are good is simply following another class around that has good CC, which in turn allows CWs to cast unwieldy and cumbersome spells such as Shard. CWs control spells (except for our prones and possibly repel) should not be blocked by any immune mechanic. This is the only way CWs will ever be able to compete vs "melee" classes with instant long range gap closers that arent on long cool downs. Our kite mechanic, which is what distinguishes ranged classes in most MMO's is non-existant (the distance created by teleporting is lost by the dead stop at the end of it) and other classes gap closers are more prolific than our ability to create distance.
The simple truth is CWs arent Controllers in PVP. You can argue damage vs control, range vs melee(although there are no true melee classes in NW), single target vs area of effect all you wish but until CWs are able to control another class with predictable solid results they will continue to be nothing but a detriment to a PVP party. Every CW I've seen that thinks they are good is simply following another class around that has good CC, which in turn allows CWs to cast unwieldy and cumbersome spells such as Shard. CWs control spells (except for our prones and possibly repel) should not be blocked by any immune mechanic. This is the only way CWs will ever be able to compete vs "melee" classes with instant long range gap closers that arent on long cool downs. Our kite mechanic, which is what distinguishes ranged classes in most MMO's is non-existant (the distance created by teleporting is lost by the dead stop at the end of it) and other classes gap closers are more prolific than our ability to create distance.
The simple truth is CWs arent Controllers in PVP. You can argue damage vs control, range vs melee(although there are no true melee classes in NW), single target vs area of effect all you wish but until CWs are able to control another class with predictable solid results they will continue to be nothing but a detriment to a PVP party. Every CW I've seen that thinks they are good is simply following another class around that has good CC, which in turn allows CWs to cast unwieldy and cumbersome spells such as Shard. CWs control spells (except for our prones and possibly repel) should not be blocked by any immune mechanic. This is the only way CWs will ever be able to compete vs "melee" classes with instant long range gap closers that arent on long cool downs. Our kite mechanic, which is what distinguishes ranged classes in most MMO's is non-existant (the distance created by teleporting is lost by the dead stop at the end of it) and other classes gap closers are more prolific than our ability to create distance.
The simple truth is CWs arent Controllers in PVP. You can argue damage vs control, range vs melee(although there are no true melee classes in NW), single target vs area of effect all you wish but until CWs are able to control another class with predictable solid results they will continue to be nothing but a detriment to a PVP party. Every CW I've seen that thinks they are good is simply following another class around that has good CC, which in turn allows CWs to cast unwieldy and cumbersome spells such as Shard. CWs control spells (except for our prones and possibly repel) should not be blocked by any immune mechanic. This is the only way CWs will ever be able to compete vs "melee" classes with instant long range gap closers that arent on long cool downs. Our kite mechanic, which is what distinguishes ranged classes in most MMO's is non-existant (the distance created by teleporting is lost by the dead stop at the end of it) and other classes gap closers are more prolific than our ability to create distance.
Exactly, when you compare a CW's CC to a GWF/GF prone chain, it's clear that CW's are inferior.
Exactly, when you compare a CW's CC to a GWF/GF prone chain, it's clear that CW's are inferior.
Not exactly. Unless you are those CW that do not run meatball in your set up in that case you would feel like you do little CC.
If you use meatball you will notice CW is the best Prone class in game next to GF. Icy ray or ET as start up then drop the meat ball from 103802380 feet away. That sounds pretty nice to me.
And as a GWF player myself, good CW know exactly when to dodge your prone and kite you for life, same goes to GF.
You know what is funny... Control Resistance only diminish the distance of the push on CCs that does it, and it's funny because the only classes that takes disadvantage about it is CW and DC, because we use Repel and Sun Burst to get the target away from us. The knockback of GWFs and GFs are even better for them if they push the target for a lesser distance, because then they can get close to it easier.
Not exactly. Unless you are those CW that do not run meatball in your set up in that case you would feel like you do little CC.
If you use meatball you will notice CW is the best Prone class in game next to GF. Icy ray or ET as start up then drop the meat ball from 103802380 feet away. That sounds pretty nice to me.
And as a GWF player myself, good CW know exactly when to dodge your prone and kite you for life, same goes to GF.
You make it sound easy, when it actually it isn't. The reality is that I'll still get the CW, meatball or not, on my GWF, and I'll make sure to prone him when he tries to push/cast the meatball as well, and it will explode miles away most of the times. Meatball is extremely hard to land on a very mobile halfling GWF in 1 vs 1 situations, not to mention the laughable damage if it doesn't crit.
Also, best prone classes are GF and GWF. CWs are way behind, with a very hard to land spell at 12 secs cooldown (2 prones on ideal cast, which happens... not that often) and a daily, Ice Knife, which is quite easy to avoid.
You make it sound easy, when it actually it isn't. The reality is that I'll still get the CW, meatball or not, on my GWF, and I'll make sure to prone him when he tries to push/cast the meatball as well, and it will explode miles away most of the times. Meatball is extremely hard to land on a very mobile halfling GWF in 1 vs 1 situations, not to mention the laughable damage if it doesn't crit.
Also, best prone classes are GF and GWF. CWs are way behind, with a very hard to land spell at 12 secs cooldown (2 prones on ideal cast, which happens... not that often) and a daily, Ice Knife, which is quite easy to avoid.
So you never heard of this? You can Icy ray a GWF and then prone his *** off. If you missed lol you should delete your cw. And if a halfing GWF happen to deflect and being able to move out of your icy ray then use your ET plz, GWF and GF prone require them to be at meele range, and you can do your prone combo 80 feet away.
I don't make things sound easy, it is YOU and those fellow player who have little skill then come to forum QQ about things being underpower and other stuff... GWF are like the easiest thing to prone for a CW during 1 v 1... there is no way for him to avoid it unless he has unstoppable up.
So you never heard of this? You can Icy ray a GWF and then prone his *** off. If you missed lol you should delete your cw. And if a halfing GWF happen to deflect and being able to move out of your icy ray then use your ET plz, GWF and GF prone require them to be at meele range, and you can do your prone combo 80 feet away.
I don't make things sound easy, it is YOU and those fellow player who have little skill then come to forum QQ about things being underpower and other stuff... GWF are like the easiest thing to prone for a CW during 1 v 1... there is no way for him to avoid it unless he has unstoppable up.
It seems like you have lost to quite abit cws on your gwf, well i can tell you that a pro gwf will not lose to a cw.
And meatball specc? That wont even get a good gwf to 20%. So if you want to do anything else then prone for a few seconds that specc is out.
I can do some 1v1s with you, pm me ingame. Handle you see on forum, charr is inna
So you never heard of this? You can Icy ray a GWF and then prone his *** off. If you missed lol you should delete your cw. And if a halfing GWF happen to deflect and being able to move out of your icy ray then use your ET plz, GWF and GF prone require them to be at meele range, and you can do your prone combo 80 feet away.
I don't make things sound easy, it is YOU and those fellow player who have little skill then come to forum QQ about things being underpower and other stuff... GWF are like the easiest thing to prone for a CW during 1 v 1... there is no way for him to avoid it unless he has unstoppable up.
I have CW (who doesn't play Repels, Icy terrains and whatever other crazy stuff and is not a Renegade... and does prones), GWF, GF, TR, all BiS FOTM with emblems and stuff. I know very well which class does prone most, and easiest. Hint: it's not the CW.
- I can use FLS and prone from miles away, and with a large AoE too... takedown... IBS... kill count increased.
- Icy Rays will usually turn my GWF unstoppable if it crits... and guess what, no more prones on me for a while, while I mercilessly beat the CW down
- landing Icy Rays/Entangle/Meatball combo from a long distance is HARD. I mean, it's impossible to even compare it to how easy I can land FLS. These things are in completely different skill echelons. GF/GWF prones=no skill necessary. CW meatball combo=most skillful combo in the game.
I have CW (who doesn't play Repels, Icy terrains and whatever other crazy stuff and is not a Renegade... and does prones), GWF, GF, TR, all BiS FOTM with emblems and stuff. I know very well which class does prone most, and easiest. Hint: it's not the CW.
- I can use FLS and prone from miles away, and with a large AoE too... takedown... IBS... kill count increased.
- Icy Rays will usually turn my GWF unstoppable if it crits... and guess what, no more prones on me for a while, while I mercilessly beat the CW down
- landing Icy Rays/Entangle/Meatball combo from a long distance is HARD. I mean, it's impossible to even compare it to how easy I can land FLS. These things are in completely different skill echelons. GF/GWF prones=no skill necessary. CW meatball combo=most skillful combo in the game.
It sounds like there is a bad cw complaining his CW can't land meatball combo. Listing the amount of gear says nothing of your skill, and as a matter of fact you just sound like all those 10k gs nuubs out there that complain about this and that...
CW can land a prone 80 feet away. GF frontline? Bull charge? Go wiki the range plz. It is dumb to complain a class is not good at cc when the class is in fact the best cc class with one condition: skill, which you don't have... Frontline is dodgable, you can even dodge that on a GWF lol. I suggest you put more time into playing a CW, get good on it then come complain about it.
It sounds like there is a bad cw complaining his CW can't land meatball combo. Listing the amount of gear says nothing of your skill, and as a matter of fact you just sound like all those 10k gs nuubs out there that complain about this and that...
CW can land a prone 80 feet away. GF frontline? Bull charge? Go wiki the range plz. It is dumb to complain a class is not good at cc when the class is in fact the best cc class with one condition: skill, which you don't have... Frontline is dodgable, you can even dodge that on a GWF lol. I suggest you put more time into playing a CW, get good on it then come complain about it.
Personal attacks don't say anything. I main these classes since beta and played PvP consistently at the highest end. I don't have any favorite class.
You don't want to listen to what I'm saying, preferring to ad hominem instead, it's fine by me. This is the Internet and people always think they are correct, and I'm not the one to interfere.
Personal attacks don't say anything. I main these classes since beta and played PvP consistently at the highest end. I don't have any favorite class.
You don't want to listen to what I'm saying, preferring to ad hominem instead, it's fine by me. This is the Internet and people always think they are correct, and I'm not the one to interfere.
Those are not personal attack mate, they are a statement, which holds truth... CW is fine in terms of how they can CC things as long as we are talking the meatball spec. And I am not even factoring the oppressor build with chill strike. Good CW can provide lots of CC, not just prone, even in tenacity patch they are still useful depending on actual team comp.
But all these need to be done with skill. I have seen good CW still do exceptionally well in this patch aka Alt---Sobek. Never get a chance to fight Virus in tenacity patch yet but from what I know he is doing good as well. CW is a class reward you for playing well, and punish you harshly for being lousy on it. Your statement sound like you fall into the later category, again not trying to attack, this is a statement... And there is no shame of being calling a CW that are not good, because there are only about that much CW are even competitive in the server, the actual exceptional ones are even less.
When I look at a class I look at its full potential, not by player skill. So if you have no or little skill then CW is ****, since you missed everything, 0 dmg, 0 cc aka useless. Again it is dumb to complain a class when you can't play it well. You can complain it for being HARD to play well, but not how bad the class is.
And I believe the initial debate point is that how CW CC things, therefore my point is CW CC things just fine, and imo CW is the best CC class when it comes to prone because of the RANGE. If you can't land it that is because you CAN'T. There are CW that CAN. So don't blame the class.
Problem is a meatball cw cant kill a gwf, while a renegade can. So unless your team is good, meatball damage is too low atm to make any real difference. Sure there are cws rocking it atm, but they still cant kill a gwf
Those are not personal attack mate, they are a statement, which holds truth... CW is fine in terms of how they can CC things as long as we are talking the meatball spec. And I am not even factoring the oppressor build with chill strike. Good CW can provide lots of CC, not just prone, even in tenacity patch they are still useful depending on actual team comp.
But all these need to be done with skill. I have seen good CW still do exceptionally well in this patch aka Alt---Sobek. Never get a chance to fight Virus in tenacity patch yet but from what I know he is doing good as well. CW is a class reward you for playing well, and punish you harshly for being lousy on it. Your statement sound like you fall into the later category, again not trying to attack, this is a statement... And there is no shame of being calling a CW that are not good, because there are only about that much CW are even competitive in the server, the actual exceptional ones are even less.
When I look at a class I look at its full potential, not by player skill. So if you have no or little skill then CW is ****, since you missed everything, 0 dmg, 0 cc aka useless. Again it is dumb to complain a class when you can't play it well. You can complain it for being HARD to play well, but not how bad the class is.
And I believe the initial debate point is that how CW CC things, therefore my point is CW CC things just fine, and imo CW is the best CC class when it comes to prone because of the RANGE. If you can't land it that is because you CAN'T. There are CW that CAN. So don't blame the class.
All 3 CWs you mentioned are extremely good and the best in the game. Please consider these CWs always kinda ride on all r10s/emblems teams, at least 3-4 guys as a semi/full premade. I fought them as well, but when separated from their party they go down fast, even with their 35.000+ HP.
What I'm trying to say here is that I do better CC on my GWF, GF and even on my fledgling HR that I'm messing with these days, and it's easier. This is all I have to say. Can't care less about buffs and nerfs and QQ and never suggested such things. I'm doing fine on all my chars. Some are just ZzzZZZz to play and offer better returns for your efforts, while others are frustrating in comparison.
Problem is a meatball cw cant kill a gwf, while a renegade can. So unless your team is good, meatball damage is too low atm to make any real difference. Sure there are cws rocking it atm, but they still cant kill a gwf
Well this is not a new problem. CW has always been like this way: run like a ***** when you are in bad match-up or getting focused, chase people down like a boss when you are with your team. The mentality of how a CW play has never changed...
It is not a CW's job to win every 1 v 1, and GWF has always been hard for CW... With Tenacity it simply makes it impossible. Pre-tenacity the only CW that I would think twice before fighting is ALT and Sobek. Anyone else I just smash keyboard and kill them all. In this patch I will go 1 v 1 any CW in a heartbeat cause they are so dead lol.
But again to be a Pro CW you have to learn to play like a *****... If you watch ALT he runs a lot and turn on you when teammate come, that is how a CW play. You shouldn't actively look for 1v1 unless it is a match up you know you gonna win.
If you wanna be 1 v 1 hero go roll a midget TR, or GWF.
All 3 CWs you mentioned are extremely good and the best in the game. Please consider these CWs always kinda ride on all r10s/emblems teams, at least 3-4 guys as a semi/full premade. I fought them as well, but when separated from their party they go down fast, even with their 35.000+ HP.
What I'm trying to say here is that I do better CC on my GWF, GF and even on my fledgling HR that I'm messing with these days, and it's easier. This is all I have to say. Can't care less about buffs and nerfs and QQ and never suggested such things. I'm doing fine on all my chars. Some are just ZzzZZZz to play and offer better returns for your efforts, while others are frustrating in comparison.
Pro CW mentality: play like a little *****. that is how you win game as CW. The reason why those CW are good because they know exactly when to get in when to run like hell, ofc being in a decent team is importatnt, Alt without Req is like -50% effectivness... It has always been the case for this class to be team reliant.
I have a CW that are not geared but I still play him in pug games for fun cause it is all skill about this class, when you outplayed someone it feels like you just won the lottery. But I enjoy GWF like hack the same time cause I smash keyboard and win, like literally.
Game is broken, no real balance can be found, even though I defend CW for his capability of doing CC, I still think CW sucks in this patch, credit goes to HR mostly. If there is any class that is worse than CW it would be DC but most DC have a different attitude in PVP they know from day 1 they are support class so for them it is not that big of a issue.
Comments
If you run any other set up like Icy Ray on tab, Ray of Enfeeblement on tab you gonna have a hard time cause you won't do anything.
Being able to prone something is just too **** important. And meatball offers absolute ridiculous burst.(compare to other cw skills)
Overall CW is not in a really good spot but it is kind of like some other class: playable but don't expect to be OP or really strong. And the HR counters CW way too hard, I am not sure if that is even intended but good HR can kill a CW without even dropping too much HP.
Also, CW does have a really high skill cap. Mediocre CW are less useful due to tenacity, you can't just rely on some big crit to do the work for you, it needs you to be a more all-around player in order to make CW shine.
I get what you mean, man. It would definitely be awesome if CW's had a lot more defensive options to choose from other than just one skill. But then again, a lot of classes have some sort of defensive must-have powers, and so far only the CW doesn't have one. HR's have their Lone Wolf, TR's have the ITC, DC's have Astral Shield, GF's have Block and GWF's have Unstoppable (not really much choices for GF's and GWF's). So far CW's are the only class without some degree of defense. CW's have their CC and it was their main source of Defense. But now CW's from all over have been reporting that their CC's aren't viable anymore thanks to CC's being affected by Deflect. It would have been okay if it was only CC resistances, but Deflect should NOT affect CC duration in my humble opinion. Deflect is far too easy to stack despite its diminishing returns, which makes it pretty much overkill for PVP since we have Tenacity + Deflect that effectively kills the CW's overall effectiveness and purpose for PVP, even though I believe CC is what killed PVP in the first place which Tenacity helped fix. Having one effective defensive power would change a lot for CW's in my opinion. Some sort of defensive self-buff like most classes have would effectively increase the CW's overall survival capabilities; and Shield fits in the most with this criteria.
If CC is being affected by Deflect isn't that a bug though, and so should hopefully be fixed.
As a halfling GWF, TR, HR or DC you can CC me, cast SotEA and when it falls I'll be like 60ft away.
Isn't that only due to a bug with deflect and CC?
Amen...bravo...here here...right on!
I can't help falling in love with you
Exactly, when you compare a CW's CC to a GWF/GF prone chain, it's clear that CW's are inferior.
Not exactly. Unless you are those CW that do not run meatball in your set up in that case you would feel like you do little CC.
If you use meatball you will notice CW is the best Prone class in game next to GF. Icy ray or ET as start up then drop the meat ball from 103802380 feet away. That sounds pretty nice to me.
And as a GWF player myself, good CW know exactly when to dodge your prone and kite you for life, same goes to GF.
You make it sound easy, when it actually it isn't. The reality is that I'll still get the CW, meatball or not, on my GWF, and I'll make sure to prone him when he tries to push/cast the meatball as well, and it will explode miles away most of the times. Meatball is extremely hard to land on a very mobile halfling GWF in 1 vs 1 situations, not to mention the laughable damage if it doesn't crit.
Also, best prone classes are GF and GWF. CWs are way behind, with a very hard to land spell at 12 secs cooldown (2 prones on ideal cast, which happens... not that often) and a daily, Ice Knife, which is quite easy to avoid.
So you never heard of this? You can Icy ray a GWF and then prone his *** off. If you missed lol you should delete your cw. And if a halfing GWF happen to deflect and being able to move out of your icy ray then use your ET plz, GWF and GF prone require them to be at meele range, and you can do your prone combo 80 feet away.
I don't make things sound easy, it is YOU and those fellow player who have little skill then come to forum QQ about things being underpower and other stuff... GWF are like the easiest thing to prone for a CW during 1 v 1... there is no way for him to avoid it unless he has unstoppable up.
It seems like you have lost to quite abit cws on your gwf, well i can tell you that a pro gwf will not lose to a cw.
And meatball specc? That wont even get a good gwf to 20%. So if you want to do anything else then prone for a few seconds that specc is out.
I can do some 1v1s with you, pm me ingame. Handle you see on forum, charr is inna
I have CW (who doesn't play Repels, Icy terrains and whatever other crazy stuff and is not a Renegade... and does prones), GWF, GF, TR, all BiS FOTM with emblems and stuff. I know very well which class does prone most, and easiest. Hint: it's not the CW.
- I can use FLS and prone from miles away, and with a large AoE too... takedown... IBS... kill count increased.
- Icy Rays will usually turn my GWF unstoppable if it crits... and guess what, no more prones on me for a while, while I mercilessly beat the CW down
- landing Icy Rays/Entangle/Meatball combo from a long distance is HARD. I mean, it's impossible to even compare it to how easy I can land FLS. These things are in completely different skill echelons. GF/GWF prones=no skill necessary. CW meatball combo=most skillful combo in the game.
It sounds like there is a bad cw complaining his CW can't land meatball combo. Listing the amount of gear says nothing of your skill, and as a matter of fact you just sound like all those 10k gs nuubs out there that complain about this and that...
CW can land a prone 80 feet away. GF frontline? Bull charge? Go wiki the range plz. It is dumb to complain a class is not good at cc when the class is in fact the best cc class with one condition: skill, which you don't have... Frontline is dodgable, you can even dodge that on a GWF lol. I suggest you put more time into playing a CW, get good on it then come complain about it.
I still think meatball is good cause it gives me time to run lol.
Jk. You missed the point. I did not say how a CW beat GWF 1 v 1.
All I trying to say is how a CW can PRONE a GWF, not BEAT a GWF. Hope that clear it up.
Personal attacks don't say anything. I main these classes since beta and played PvP consistently at the highest end. I don't have any favorite class.
You don't want to listen to what I'm saying, preferring to ad hominem instead, it's fine by me. This is the Internet and people always think they are correct, and I'm not the one to interfere.
Those are not personal attack mate, they are a statement, which holds truth... CW is fine in terms of how they can CC things as long as we are talking the meatball spec. And I am not even factoring the oppressor build with chill strike. Good CW can provide lots of CC, not just prone, even in tenacity patch they are still useful depending on actual team comp.
But all these need to be done with skill. I have seen good CW still do exceptionally well in this patch aka Alt---Sobek. Never get a chance to fight Virus in tenacity patch yet but from what I know he is doing good as well. CW is a class reward you for playing well, and punish you harshly for being lousy on it. Your statement sound like you fall into the later category, again not trying to attack, this is a statement... And there is no shame of being calling a CW that are not good, because there are only about that much CW are even competitive in the server, the actual exceptional ones are even less.
When I look at a class I look at its full potential, not by player skill. So if you have no or little skill then CW is ****, since you missed everything, 0 dmg, 0 cc aka useless. Again it is dumb to complain a class when you can't play it well. You can complain it for being HARD to play well, but not how bad the class is.
And I believe the initial debate point is that how CW CC things, therefore my point is CW CC things just fine, and imo CW is the best CC class when it comes to prone because of the RANGE. If you can't land it that is because you CAN'T. There are CW that CAN. So don't blame the class.
All 3 CWs you mentioned are extremely good and the best in the game. Please consider these CWs always kinda ride on all r10s/emblems teams, at least 3-4 guys as a semi/full premade. I fought them as well, but when separated from their party they go down fast, even with their 35.000+ HP.
What I'm trying to say here is that I do better CC on my GWF, GF and even on my fledgling HR that I'm messing with these days, and it's easier. This is all I have to say. Can't care less about buffs and nerfs and QQ and never suggested such things. I'm doing fine on all my chars. Some are just ZzzZZZz to play and offer better returns for your efforts, while others are frustrating in comparison.
Well this is not a new problem. CW has always been like this way: run like a ***** when you are in bad match-up or getting focused, chase people down like a boss when you are with your team. The mentality of how a CW play has never changed...
It is not a CW's job to win every 1 v 1, and GWF has always been hard for CW... With Tenacity it simply makes it impossible. Pre-tenacity the only CW that I would think twice before fighting is ALT and Sobek. Anyone else I just smash keyboard and kill them all. In this patch I will go 1 v 1 any CW in a heartbeat cause they are so dead lol.
But again to be a Pro CW you have to learn to play like a *****... If you watch ALT he runs a lot and turn on you when teammate come, that is how a CW play. You shouldn't actively look for 1v1 unless it is a match up you know you gonna win.
If you wanna be 1 v 1 hero go roll a midget TR, or GWF.
Pro CW mentality: play like a little *****. that is how you win game as CW. The reason why those CW are good because they know exactly when to get in when to run like hell, ofc being in a decent team is importatnt, Alt without Req is like -50% effectivness... It has always been the case for this class to be team reliant.
I have a CW that are not geared but I still play him in pug games for fun cause it is all skill about this class, when you outplayed someone it feels like you just won the lottery. But I enjoy GWF like hack the same time cause I smash keyboard and win, like literally.
Game is broken, no real balance can be found, even though I defend CW for his capability of doing CC, I still think CW sucks in this patch, credit goes to HR mostly. If there is any class that is worse than CW it would be DC but most DC have a different attitude in PVP they know from day 1 they are support class so for them it is not that big of a issue.