Just as a side not, I've had people dodge my SE, I'm not sure exactly how though... some people ahve said that getting very far away can help, and I think I've seen people dodge it by getting to the other side of an object, I think someone once did it on a base point, getting to the other side of the pillar in the center, but I'm not sure.
You can dodge ice knife, and the tick tick gives it away. Nothing should hit as hard as SE and not miss.
I threw 3 knives tonight, at a geared hunter, and then SE'd him to death from 20+ meters, all from stealth. It's just not fair. Either nerf it's damage or give it a chance to miss.
u forgot that wizards can freeze anyone without an immunity skill to prevent dodging and then use ice knife
Tenacity is supposed to remove spike damage. This daily has - by a wide margine - the greatest spike damage I observe in every situation without the possiblity to prevent damage by dodging. Ice Knife is on par with dailies of other classes. FYI I currently play mostly a HR in pvp and have no problems with Ice Knife whatsoever - even on my more squishier CW I can deal with Ice Knife fine, in fact its very easy to avoid being Knifed. And after some combos it doenst make that much damage at all - I am also not the only one telling you that.
That is another topic. And there are enough people (including myself) which are in fact getting one-shotted from almost full HP by ES - which is also not dodgeable (= I WIN BUTTON). I really cant belive someone seriously arguing that this is how it should work - or I dont get the joke here. Even players who play TR in PvP mainly demand a change.
For me PvP is to outplay an opponent and therefore outdamaging him by outplaying him (if you killed him first, you did in fact outdamage him, nothing wrong with that) but NOT to hit a single button as soon as your daily is ready and win a fight. Everyone with long time experience in PvP would agree with me that this is total BS. This goes for individual fights and group fights.
Teamplay is one aspect of these domination matches, but for me a balanced individual fight experience is what has most priority, because only if this is balanced then you actually see the differences in teamplay and strategy. And it was very good to remove all spike damage from the game, just one thing is apparently forgotten.
I like your reply. It's very well thought out.
I should add another point to my argument for "not nerfing" SE. I actually don't really care if it does get nerfed or not. What bothers me is how the process of "balancing" PvP plays out in the forums and subsequently with the Devs. I totally get and understand where the feelings come from when facing a "clearly" unbalanced power in PvP as I have been playing this game since beta and have been the recipient end of many of the clearly unbalanced power attacks like the 1 shot lurker's assualt with lashing blade before that was nerfed.
To me, the real underlying problem with Neverwinter's PvP sense of balance hasn't been strictly the obviously OP powers that the different classes have. It's actually that the there is such a huge disparity between the freshly minted lvl 60s and the fully geared out lvl 60s. To have any chance at killing a fully geared out level 60, I want an OP power like SE because that's the only thing that's going to make a dent in the character before they pummel me to death in a few deft strokes from the regular powers. In fact I need a few of these OP powers to effectively stand a chance against them.
Even my earlier "complaints" about the GF who can "prone" me to death is about an OP GF. The regular GF cannot do. You need maxed out gear to go along with the "right" set of stats to do that. The average GWF can't prone me to death either. It has to be a Vanguard GWF.
My TR has never hit 60k with SE...ever. I don't know why because I'm not looking to max out my char that way. So implementing a class wide nerf will affect me more than the players who have built a specific build to achieve that result.
My solution to all the imbalance mess has been and always will be to divide up the Level 60 PvP into at least 3 different levels of ability and for simplicity sake, categorized as easy, medium and hard. OP players should be playing in hard. Freshly minted Level 60s should be playing in easy. Sure, we can keep an "open" class arena where the two can play together just to know what it's like.
But if Cryptic would do this, I believe that the majority of the imbalances we are experiencing will go away and less drastic measures would need to be taken to balance the PvP gameplay for everyone.
Not to get off topic, but I've been tracking my gameplay experiences in this forum for the purpose of "seeing" when and how the skill matching system will affect my gameplay experiences. I bring this up to point out that most of the mismatches that I'm experiencing is when I'm faced with opponents who are unquestionably geared up better than me to maximize their character's powers, be it proning from a GF or GWF, or cc from a CW, or permastealth TR with max damage, or even a tanky DC who can kill me with it's weak damage because I'm stupid enough to try and stand there and go toe to toe with them without causing much damage to them. I have 9 characters with each of the different classes covered. All but my HR is level 60. Until it hits level 60, my 3 favorite characters are CW, TR, and GWF. CW because it's fun to play with all it's different controls and damage. TR because stealth is fun. GWF because I don't have to be OP for others to think I am. Sorry, GF and DC are too "hard" to play because they're too boring. There's only 1 way to play those characters in order to "win" at least that's what I figured out in the short time I spent playing with them. But, creating and playing all the classes has allowed me to figure out the general strengths and weaknesses of them and therefore how to play against them.
So, my emphatic no to the original post is because the SE damage isn't the real problem causing imbalance to PvP which is what the majority of the posts seemed to be saying in response to supporting the nerf. Now should Cryptic actually ever do something like I suggested and it remains clear that SE is too OP at any level, then for sure, it needs to be nerfed to make the game play more fun for us all.
*edit*
And one last thought -
My comparison of being 1 shotted by SE or even by the original 1 shot LA+LS to the Vanguard GWF who can prone you at-will is to point out that both have the same net effect which is leaving the "victim" feeling like why bother playing since I can't respond to this power. But a 1 shot SE takes time to recharge, whereas the at-will doesn't. This means a 1 shot can have a strategy devised to combat it. The at-will has no strategy that can be devised against it because there is no pause between the at-wills. Therefore the more serious "threat" to PvP balanced gameplay isn't the spike damage of the SE as it is the Vanguard at-will.
I'll be concerned about a TR's spiked SE if he can do that every 5 or 10 seconds.
Also, concerning SE being not dodgeable, that's wrong. I have had way too many of my "undodgeable" SEs dodged by CWs and DCs in the same match which made me think they had a cheat since it's supposed to be undodgeable. And I have been hit and killed by many Ice Knifes when I dodged. Obviously, a factor like lag time is involved in many of these encounters. But I no longer fixate on them and move on to other targets as the goal is to cap points to win. I am always learning new ways to kite players who are geared better than me when I have no way to out damage them.
u forgot that wizards can freeze anyone without an immunity skill to prevent dodging and then use ice knife
...and?
Freeze effects wear off very quickly in PvP, making them very unreliable for this purpose. What works better is using Ice Knife on a target rooted by Icy Rays or proned. Entangling Force might not even last long enough against some characters unless perhaps the CW has max Arcane stacks at the time.
Ice Knife requires setup to guarantee a hit and can still be countered by several common abilities (ITC, Unstoppable, and Divine Exaltation come to mind). Even when it does land, it won't be spectacular unless a crit is scored against a debuffed target.
Freeze effects wear off very quickly in PvP, making them very unreliable for this purpose. What works better is using Ice Knife on a target rooted by Icy Rays or proned. Entangling Force might not even last long enough against some characters unless perhaps the CW has max Arcane stacks at the time.
Ice Knife requires setup to guarantee a hit and can still be countered by several common abilities (ITC, Unstoppable, and Divine Exaltation come to mind). Even when it does land, it won't be spectacular unless a crit is scored against a debuffed target.
Trying to compare IK to SE is just silly.
but freeze can definitely last long enough for a ice knife to hit so it doesn't matter how short of a duration it is
and i still get hit for 15k by ice knives but i haven't run into the wizards capable of doing the 20k+ again but i know it exists
but freeze can definitely last long enough for a ice knife to hit so it doesn't matter how short of a duration it is
and i still get hit for 15k by ice knives but i haven't run into the wizards capable of doing the 20k+ again but i know it exists
No, freeze will not last long enough to guarantee an Ice Knife hit unless MAYBE the target takes no damage whatsoever while the Ice Knife is winding up.
15k isn't much for a Daily. I've performed 20k+ IKs since the patch, but only on 10k GS people, players with no Tenacity, and those already hit by severe mitigation debuffs.
My experience with IK from my DC's perspective is that it's quite weak for how telegraphed it is. I've eaten literally 3 IKs in a row and kept on going while stubbornly rezzing a team mate. Sometimes I don't bother to use the stamina to dodge IK even when I hear it going off if I know the CW is weak. SE is far, far scarier in general.
No, freeze will not last long enough to guarantee an Ice Knife hit unless MAYBE the target takes no damage whatsoever while the Ice Knife is winding up.
15k isn't much for a Daily. I've performed 20k+ IKs since the patch, but only on 10k GS people, players with no Tenacity, and those already hit by severe mitigation debuffs.
My experience with IK from my DC's perspective is that it's quite weak for how telegraphed it is. I've eaten literally 3 IKs in a row and kept on going while stubbornly rezzing a team mate. Sometimes I don't bother to use the stamina to dodge IK even when I hear it going off if I know the CW is weak. SE is far, far scarier in general.
guessing freeze breaks upon being hit? figures since the 2 wizards who spammed that combo practically were the team as i saw very little of the other 3. probably explains y i rarely see a wizard using freeze.
i do have tenacity now, but i am only 11k gs so it might just be that i was fighting overgeared wizards.
not saying ice knife is stronger, but as a non-tanky cleric it has been an instant death to me on multiple occasions.
guessing freeze breaks upon being hit? figures since the 2 wizards who spammed that combo practically were the team as i saw very little of the other 3. probably explains y i rarely see a wizard using freeze.
i do have tenacity now, but i am only 11k gs so it might just be that i was fighting overgeared wizards.
not saying ice knife is stronger, but as a non-tanky cleric it has been an instant death to me on multiple occasions.
Yes, freeze breaks much more quickly when the target is being hit. It doesn't last long in PvP, anyway, but it can be broken almost instantly by receiving damage. It's a little different if more than one CW at a time is stacking Chill on you, because you can be frozen repeatedly.
A CW who outgears a DC should destroy it pretty quickly, so that's not just you. Even when all else is more or less equal, the CW has a significant advantage in that match-up and should dominate if they play smart and don't waste their big encounters while the DC is dodging or buffed up the yin-yang.
Just for the record and comparison, an Ice Knife crit does 6-10K damage these days...
It's really hard to treat you seriously Sir. Yes, SE is very powerful, but please stop talking such nonsense about Ice Knife. I regularly get on me Ice Kinfe crits in 12-15K area, and the biggest one I suffered was 21K (I had quite low base defense, but full T1 PvP armor set on me). And yeah, I'm definitely not in a top tier in PvP, so these number can probably go higher with 18K GS CWs.
All the damage numbers you see in PvP are very situational. Let's take that >200K SE video posted earlier in the topic. So yeah, 200K is insane damage, total overkill. And everyone yells "OMG, TR OP nerf SE". But why don't you see in that video that in fact what is OP is stacking buffs/debuffs! Why don't you scream "OMG, nerf CW/DC buffs/debuffs, so OP". Yeah, you just see the big number from TR which is a result of influence of other classes (but this aspect is not discussed).
I would like to see in such situation that instead of TR there would be 18K GS CW critting with Ice Knife.
If it goes as far as 60K (so enough to one-shot any player), does it mean Ice Knife is OP and it should be nerfed to the oblivion?
I'm really fed up towards all that negativity vs TR class. Lot of this QQ is from plain bad players who don't know their class nor have even basic knowledge what is TR. But the result is TR will be nerfed yet again. Probably next patch will bring stealth depleted by 50% with performing single at-will attack, SE damage nerfed by 80%, ITC will have 5 minutes cooldown and LB base damage nerfed by 50%, no autocrits from stealth.
The number one problem with TR is that they are single-target burst damage specialists so they are by defnition very strong class for PvP in terms of taking their opponents in a few moments if the circumstances are in favour of TR. When TRs are balanced so that they do not kill people do fat in PvP, in the process they become laughable for PvE.
This is the core of the problem - PvE and PvP are not separate enough in NWO.
In a lot of other games skills work differently for PvP and PvE. TR and every next class which is single-target as a result of PvP QQ will be nerfed so much that it will be not viable for dungeons runs enymore. Once in a while 50K SE on a one player in PvP from top end TR is opponent's death in most cases, so probably OP. But most of the TRs don't generate such high numbers anyway. The same 50K on a dragon with 3 millions HP? Not so impressive. And in reallity, average geared TR won't make SE over 30K in PvE.
SE it's perfect example how it is a problem. Insane power for PvP, nothing to rant about in PvE. I'm really OK with Cryptic altering the powers for PvP and PvE separately. So I can get my SE to crit for 100K on boss in PvE and cap the PvP cirt at 20K.
BTW. CW is the opposite, insanely OP in PvE to the level CW stacking is answer to everything.
Now as a TR I feel hated in PvP and useless in PvE...
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's really hard to treat you seriously Sir. Yes, SE is very powerful, but please stop talking such nonsense about Ice Knife. I regularly get on me Ice Kinfe crits in 12-15K area, and the biggest one I suffered was 21K (I had quite low base defense, but full T1 PvP armor set on me). And yeah, I'm definitely not in a top tier in PvP, so these number can probably go higher with 18K GS CWs.
............
Incoming proof from PvPers with maxed/almost maxed gear.
SE is an execution skill. The clue is in the name. It's meant to kill.
When I use it on targets it seems to be WAI. Low hitpoint targets die, high hitpoint targets suffer moderate to low damage. Is there some comparable data to that provided above for Ice Knife or is all we have to work with anecdotal?
SE is an execution skill. The clue is in the name. It's meant to kill.
When I use it on targets it seems to be WAI. Low hitpoint targets die, high hitpoint targets suffer moderate to low damage. Is there some comparable data to that provided above for Ice Knife or is all we have to work with anecdotal?
Data would be great to see so that we can verify or debunk claims of SE hitting for crazy damage on high HP targets. I suspect that it's more the case of SE's damage looking very high in comparison to everything else since players have more DR overall than they did before.
I personally don't want to see SE nerfed as an execution skill since it helps balance fights that might otherwise take a very long time, but I would like it to stop penetrating dodge and damage-immune status so that it takes a little skill and timing to get the big pay-off.
SE is an execution skill. The clue is in the name. It's meant to kill.
When I use it on targets it seems to be WAI. Low hitpoint targets die, high hitpoint targets suffer moderate to low damage. Is there some comparable data to that provided above for Ice Knife or is all we have to work with anecdotal?
I can provide some data from top TRs when I meet them as well, if I don't forget to log
From my experiences earlier today:
20+ Tenacity 30% DR 35K HP CW (me)
Perfect Vorpal R7s TR (thanks Insomnia!)
Tests done from full HP. No buffs, no debuffs, I think the TR used some small attacks before SE (probably to proc stuff? Not a TR specialist...)
- non crit SE = 9-10K
- crit SE = 22K damage or so
Before Tenacity, TRs SEed me only when I was low, although they used other dailies usually. Nowadays some TRs SE me from whatever HP, and the good ones from 50% HP. If SE crits , it's usually SF proc (this is the sole reason I'm keeping SF to be honest), or death. If it doesn't crit, it's a hard hitting, normal daily on par with Ice Knife. As a comparison (since most people here compare the two).
- SE is basically always hitting (dodges are actually out of LoS/distance I think), penetrates defenses (whatever this might really mean...)
- IK is quite easy to dodge if not CCed, does comparable critical damage as a normal SE, adds stacks of Chill (so it's easier to get frozen after you get IKed), prones target (so you're open to other prones such as shard)
That's about it. Not getting into class balance discussion here. TRs have been repeatedly nerfed, it's ridiculous what's happening to the class.
Developers, don't be such in a hurry with the nerf hammer. Think about the consequences... breaking class for PvE being one, and forcing TRs into perma being another.
I can provide some data from top TRs when I meet them as well, if I don't forget to log
From my experiences earlier today:
20+ Tenacity 30% DR 35K HP CW (me)
Perfect Vorpal R7s TR (thanks Insomnia!)
Tests done from full HP. No buffs, no debuffs, I think the TR used some small attacks before SE (probably to proc stuff? Not a TR specialist...)
- non crit SE = 9-10K
- crit SE = 22K damage or so
Before Tenacity, TRs SEed me only when I was low, although they used other dailies usually. Nowadays some TRs SE me from whatever HP, and the good ones from 50% HP. If SE crits , it's usually SF proc (this is the sole reason I'm keeping SF to be honest), or death. If it doesn't crit, it's a hard hitting, normal daily on par with Ice Knife. As a comparison (since most people here compare the two).
- SE is basically always hitting (dodges are actually out of LoS/distance I think), penetrates defenses (whatever this might really mean...)
- IK is quite easy to dodge if not CCed, does comparable critical damage as a normal SE, adds stacks of Chill (so it's easier to get frozen after you get IKed), prones target (so you're open to other prones such as shard)
That's about it. Not getting into class balance discussion here. TRs have been repeatedly nerfed, it's ridiculous what's happening to the class.
Developers, don't be such in a hurry with the nerf hammer. Think about the consequences... breaking class for PvE being one, and forcing TRs into perma being another.
Hmmm. Pretty sure that's way more damage than I'm getting, but then again my TR has R5/6 enchants and no weapon or armour enchants yet. I'll pay more attention when I get on later tonight.
SE is supposed to ignore all DR (so 100% armour piercing) but what's not clear is if that also bypasses tenacity. It's not dodgeable unless you dodge outside the AoE, but it is interruptible.
IK is pretty survivable now I agree - even on my CW.
As a GWF player, I think this is actually an interesting idea. Would need a lot of testing though to see whether without it, other classes with ranged abilities can't kite the GWF around basically forever.
Funny, i kill the everliving <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of GWFs with my wiz.
All the melee classes have real gap closers, why take that from the gwf?
Ive caught 2 SE's in the same fight. 1v1 vs a rogue. Their survivability is high, their damage is just fine... and then theres shocking exec.... the iWIN button in pvp right now.
Short answer -
NO, it's not way out of bounds. It's a daily. It's supposed to be powerful because it takes time to build up. TR action points take much longer to build up than a CW's Ice Knife. I've actually survived an Ice knife in a fight only to be killed by it a second time in the same fight.
IMO,
nerfs that need to happen are those dealing with at-wills and encounters which have no recovery time or short recovery times relative to dailies. Those affect gameplay balance more than dailies. Yes, getting 1 shotted really stinks, but it's not like a player can run around and 1 shot everyone they see using a daily consecutively. What really stinks is watching a GWF running around and proning you continuously so you can't move, can't defend, can't dodge, can't hit, and then die. Or watching a GF or two do the same thing to you. And then continue that attack on the next player, and then the next player and then the next player. THIS makes PvP unbalanced.
I play a TR, CW, and a GWF.
The GWF is the new PvP king because a single good GWF can change the balance of a match from losing to winning. The CW is the undisputed PvE king because of all the dmg it can do. The TR is only as good as the team it's on even for the OP TRs. One OP TR on an "average" team can't win the match for the team. Multiple OP TRs is a different story. A single OP GWF on an average team can win the match for the team. And I've seen a single OP CW also make a huge impact on the outcome of many PvP matches.
It boils down to these two basic fundamental PvP concepts.
If you believe that PvP matches are about out damaging your opponent, then yes, 1 shot kills and other high spike damage powers need to be "balanced" out by the devs so that every class generates the equal amount of dps and cc.
But if you believe PvP matches are about team play using strategy and tactics, then 1 shot kills and other high spike damage powers are balanced out by employing the appropriate counter tactics and strategies.
Hmmm. Pretty sure that's way more damage than I'm getting, but then again my TR has R5/6 enchants and no weapon or armour enchants yet. I'll pay more attention when I get on later tonight.
SE is supposed to ignore all DR (so 100% armour piercing) but what's not clear is if that also bypasses tenacity. It's not dodgeable unless you dodge outside the AoE, but it is interruptible.
IK is pretty survivable now I agree - even on my CW.
Cant dodge it, ignores ALL defense and Tenacity.. Cannot deflect. And unless you kill them when you interrupt... They just hit it when they stand up lol, its still GG.
CW control was nerfed- hard. CWs were probably hit hardest by the patch because their damage was affected like everybody's, but also their control was hit hard which they depend upon to survive.
That bit about CWs being able to ignore some of tenacity, it's some kind of joke.
As for this thread- yeah I mean it's not enough for rogues to be able to kill people from 100-0 1v1 while being totally untargetable, they also should be able to one shot people at will. Oh and let's make that ability undodgable- just for fun.
So funny how perma's defend the spec by saying they give up so much damage and have to whittle down people- meanwhile they have access to the most damaging burst ability in pvp, which you can't even dodge.
If by some miracle as a CW you're able to guess well and the TR makes some mistakes and you're actually able to damage him, then just when you think you might kill him he just kills you with this skill.
It's icing on the cake of BS that is TR in pvp in this game.
And TR's should just stop defending all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> wrong with the class. They should instead themselves demand to have a respectful class that's good for both pvp and pve. Defending this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> has gotten themselves pigeonholed into 1 viable and totally honorless spec and ruined their viability in PVE.
This, exactly!
And all the rogues saying how the class was "killed" or complaining about being "nerfed"... you cannot be serious. Have you played any other classes? My theory is the rogues that complain or have problems understanding:
1) are not high end pvp players who play a lot of matches
2) do not play their class correctly or make a lot of mistakes
3) have gear scores under or around 12k
3) are not experienced with playing other classes so they have no real perspective to judge properly
How these people think that being invisible, impossible to catch and immune from all prones and damage, untargetable the vast majority of time in combat, immune to all CCs with their at will (flurry) that stacks bleed damage (and poison with bilethorn), and have a non-dodgable SE "win" button is "killed" or "nerfed" somehow?
I mean, what else could you want? You have to be kidding me. With the regen nerf, rogues are gods in PvP at all levels.
And when their health is low, they can just go invisible and run get a health potion and come back and start over.
Trying to kill something you can't even see or prone (most high end players make very few mistakes if any), and then get my 40k health cut from 75% to 2% or dead in one single shot, is insane. That's not okay. How on earth is that okay?
And to the rogues who defense this, you have videos, screen caps, witnesses from extremely credible sources of some of the best and most honorable pvp players on the server... none of that is enough. Why? Because you want your non-skill one shot button that you can use when you can't be invisible or ITC or daze or smoke bomb.
Played with Svetlana last night, Perfect Bile Thorn he SE'd another TR who had stacks of HV+ROE on the target but it crit for 500k.
Yes, I did type that correctly, 500k.
THis was in PVP.
I regularly see TRs hitting this on targets ABOVE 50% HP and either killing them or leaving them with such a small sliver of health, its not even funny.
The issue ISNT that it cuts through DR, the issue is that it gets TOO much of a bonus from HP loss too early on.
IMO, the skill should hit for almost nothing above 75% HP (3k CRIT or less). Above 50% it hits for a moderate amount (6-7k crits) and half HP to 25% a good amount (10k CRIT) but <25% pretty much finishes them off guaranteed....
Right now a TR can SE without Perf Vorp on a 60% life target and kill them. Pre pvp changes, on my Perf Vorp TR I actually 1 shot a CW with 100% HP as SE crit for over 20k... I wish I had that recorded because it was flat out dumb....
I think all that needs to happen is give SE a damage range about 4-6k Tooltip. Then, it gets a flat % boost based on % of missing HP.
So at 50% (50% missing) thats a 50% dmg boost, 4-6k = 6-8k. At 25% HP (75% missing) it gets a 75% Dmg boost. 7-10.5K dmg...
Obv these would be tweaked based on stats etc, but now youll have a 10.5k tooltip damage will crit someone for close to 20k but they must be really low... This seems balanced....
Whoever at Cryptic is responsible for heading up the Neverwinter team will suddenly have an amazing idea and tell the other NW devs that the game needs split PvE/PvP effects for skills. So that they can make PvE skills be one way and PvP skills be another way, which will make everyone's job easier and make the game tons of money from all the new happy customers they'll have.
And all the rogues saying how the class was "killed" or complaining about being "nerfed"... you cannot be serious. Have you played any other classes?
I mean, what else could you want? You have to be kidding me. With the regen nerf, rogues are gods in PvP at all levels.
TR has been nerfed constantly since beta.
I strongly believe that TR has been nerfed so much that it forces all TRs to focus on one specific build, with no room to go an alternate route without sacrificing too much.
"1) are not high end pvp players who play a lot of matches" - EoA member, done plenty of high-end PvP
"2) do not play their class correctly or make a lot of mistakes" - Know my class. See my guide.
"3) have gear scores under or around 12k" - GS 17k
"3) are not experienced with playing other classes so they have no real perspective to judge properly" - Have a character of each class and familiar with different builds/playstyles of all.
I played a TR with a hybrid damage & survivability build.
Before the tenacity patch:
Yes, I could one-shot badly geared pugs
Yes, I could 30-40k shocking badly geared pugs
Impact shots could go to 16k on badly geared pugs
All while retaining survivability against geared opponents by using SS and ITC and stacking HP+regen.
Because that's how I built my character.
Only a small percentage of TRs had the gear and build to be able to do high amounts of damage after Mod 2, and when they did, it was mostly on pugs with bad gear. If you go into PvP as a PUG with bad gear against skilled, geared, high-end PvPers. You will die, and they will stomp you. That's how it should be.
But so many people come to the forums complaining and QQing because they're butthurt that people that have better gear than them and are more skilled than them killed them so easily. And the devs actually listen.
Patch NW.3.20130529d.6
"Shocking Execution: The base damage of this power has been reduced by 60%"
Great job complaining.
really? my normal hits are like 10k and 19k on criticals to people around 40%. a 60% nerf pretty much killed any reason to use a daily on actual tanks since even whirlwind of blades will hit harder because 4k-7.6k is going to be pathetic as a daily.
funny thing is that a non-perma rogue is easily capable of killing anyone in a 1 vs 1 and sometimes even 1 vs 2-3.
gwf's r gonna be more of a problem now that our execute is gonna die, so gl everyone when u run into those nigh-immortal gwf's which do still exist.
First saw this thread, there was just two or three guys casually discussing whether Shocking Execution was bugged because it was doing noticeable damage spikes. Then a bunch of guys thought about debuffing the hell out that GF to crit a 200k SE -- which I'm dubious if a simple Crescendo, Whirlwind or Ice Knife wouldn't do comparable damage -- that was a great vid by the way. It clearly demonstrates the power of stacked debuffs.
More to the point, a one-hitter from Shocking Execution these days factor min/maxing stats, combined effects and a little bit of luck. Not that I'm against it. I built my TR around mitigation and deflect so I feel where you are coming from, having been killed from half health more often than I'd liked. It's vexing to be killed by inferior opponents (TR) even when you could have killed them with one round of DF 'cause they are that weak -- and that takes skill to land Duelist Flurry on a target that isn't a training dummy.
Disclaimer: I was going to ramble two sentences, but when I got down to the math, I seemed not to notice how much I've already typed. You can skip down to the good bits if you want.
As for Shocking Execution, whoever pointed it out first, yes, it means to execute. To kill. Doh. I agree. It should be able to kill. On the other hand, it should only be able to kill the enemy once prep work has been done -- means he has a sliver of health left, not from 50% to full health.
As a top gear TR, who did not spec into glass cannon if I should say, the highest Shocking Execution crit I've done is 36K on an HR. He has about 10% health left... talk about stupid. I could have Deft Strike'd him to death >:[
Here is the catch:
You are all discussing whether to nerf Shocking Execution or not. Do realize, that daily is not the culprit in its entirety. I don't care if what I'm going to say here are TR trade secrets, I'll tell you for the sake of clarity. To pull off a big number you would need several things:
1. Full Executioner Paragon Path - Overrun Critical Feat is the last 1pt feat in this path, which, after successfully landing a crit, your next attack will benefit from 30% of your Critical Severity.
2. Brutal Backstab Feat - While Stealthed you critical with 5/10/15/20/25% more severity.
3. First Strike Passive - Deal 5/10/15% extra damage on your first attack in combat. After you crit with an at will, enter stealth and run around for three seconds to disengage from battle, then hit shocking execution to fully benefit from the above 3 components.
That's not everything.
4. Full PvP Set Bonus - Deal 5% more damage while stealthed.
5. Deadly Momentum - Duelist Flurry gives you a stack of Deadly Momentum, can stack up to 5 times, and give an additional of 15% Critical Severity.
6. Shocking Execution - Deal 200% more damage to your opponent based from their missing HP.
Let's run a bit of math
Let us assume that, an average TR could SE at 7K non-crit, base damage.
Overrun Critical = 125% x 0.33 = 41.25% <- This applies to the base damage, not additive to your critical severity
Base damage = 7,000
eq. a: 7,000 x Set Bonus (1 + 0.05) = 7,350 base damage
eq. b: 7,350 x First Strike (1 + 0.15) = 8,452 non critical
eq. c: 8,452 x Overrun Critical (1 + 0.4125) = 11,938 non critical
eq. d: 11,938 x Missing HP Bonus (1 + 2.0) = 35,814 non critical
eq. e: 35,814 x Sum Critical Severity (1 + 1.65) = 94,907 critical damage
Add debuffs, you can guess how that 200K video became possible!
Compute mitigation, this is what the real numbers may look like:
eq. f: 94,907 - DR (ex. 0%; 1 - 0) = 94,907 <- It ignores DR. Tenacity is questionable, but I presume SE doesn't ignore Tenacity
eq. g: 94,907 - Tenacity DR (ex. 15%; 1 - 0.15) = 90,671 <- following what they say tenacity is applied after DR
eq. h: 80,671 - Tenacity Crit DR (ex. 15%; 1 - 0.15) = 68,570
Critical 68,570 is the big damage floater you will see provided all conditions are met: all above feats are activated, build bonuses, etc, and the opponent is at a sliver of health, maybe around 5K remaining HP. It's next to impossible to have all these conditions coincide the event of triggering your daily in fast-paced PvP combat. It's almost impossible to replicate these calculations and achieve the same end result if the enemy is at full health, except in isolated cases where the attacker is overgeared and the target is undergeared, and the attacker has spec'd and min/maxed his Power stat.
I am a top-geared TR. I am not spec'd for this kind of playstyle. I don't use Vorpal. If I should reiterrate, the highest I've hit an SE is 36K to an HR with about 3K or less remaining HP. On average, my critical Shocking Execution hits between 15K and 20K on an opponent below half health. The highest non-crit I pulled off was 10K. On a full HP target (which is stupid to try) I deal 5-7K damage.
Conclusion: Nerfing Shocking Execution on its own will break the skill to the point that it becomes useless in any PvP or PvE situation. With the right circumstances, I can easily produce high damage results with Whirlwind of Blades, which is an AoE, and kill up to 3 targets at once. I've done it on occasion.
The entire discussion by itself is pointless because it's not simply SE that is giving us the damage spikes. SE alone deals negligible damage. If the justification we've all been arguing is inaccurate, then rebalancing what seems to be the most obvious culprit would only serve as a superficial fix. After you nerf SE, you will have to deal with 20-30K Whirlwind of Blades AoE or something else.
Downright nerfing the Skill is not the answer. Please think about all the math I've done here, provide corrections if you may, but really think about a better solution besides a hotfix/nerf.
Comments
u forgot that wizards can freeze anyone without an immunity skill to prevent dodging and then use ice knife
I like your reply. It's very well thought out.
I should add another point to my argument for "not nerfing" SE. I actually don't really care if it does get nerfed or not. What bothers me is how the process of "balancing" PvP plays out in the forums and subsequently with the Devs. I totally get and understand where the feelings come from when facing a "clearly" unbalanced power in PvP as I have been playing this game since beta and have been the recipient end of many of the clearly unbalanced power attacks like the 1 shot lurker's assualt with lashing blade before that was nerfed.
To me, the real underlying problem with Neverwinter's PvP sense of balance hasn't been strictly the obviously OP powers that the different classes have. It's actually that the there is such a huge disparity between the freshly minted lvl 60s and the fully geared out lvl 60s. To have any chance at killing a fully geared out level 60, I want an OP power like SE because that's the only thing that's going to make a dent in the character before they pummel me to death in a few deft strokes from the regular powers. In fact I need a few of these OP powers to effectively stand a chance against them.
Even my earlier "complaints" about the GF who can "prone" me to death is about an OP GF. The regular GF cannot do. You need maxed out gear to go along with the "right" set of stats to do that. The average GWF can't prone me to death either. It has to be a Vanguard GWF.
My TR has never hit 60k with SE...ever. I don't know why because I'm not looking to max out my char that way. So implementing a class wide nerf will affect me more than the players who have built a specific build to achieve that result.
My solution to all the imbalance mess has been and always will be to divide up the Level 60 PvP into at least 3 different levels of ability and for simplicity sake, categorized as easy, medium and hard. OP players should be playing in hard. Freshly minted Level 60s should be playing in easy. Sure, we can keep an "open" class arena where the two can play together just to know what it's like.
But if Cryptic would do this, I believe that the majority of the imbalances we are experiencing will go away and less drastic measures would need to be taken to balance the PvP gameplay for everyone.
Not to get off topic, but I've been tracking my gameplay experiences in this forum for the purpose of "seeing" when and how the skill matching system will affect my gameplay experiences. I bring this up to point out that most of the mismatches that I'm experiencing is when I'm faced with opponents who are unquestionably geared up better than me to maximize their character's powers, be it proning from a GF or GWF, or cc from a CW, or permastealth TR with max damage, or even a tanky DC who can kill me with it's weak damage because I'm stupid enough to try and stand there and go toe to toe with them without causing much damage to them. I have 9 characters with each of the different classes covered. All but my HR is level 60. Until it hits level 60, my 3 favorite characters are CW, TR, and GWF. CW because it's fun to play with all it's different controls and damage. TR because stealth is fun. GWF because I don't have to be OP for others to think I am. Sorry, GF and DC are too "hard" to play because they're too boring. There's only 1 way to play those characters in order to "win" at least that's what I figured out in the short time I spent playing with them. But, creating and playing all the classes has allowed me to figure out the general strengths and weaknesses of them and therefore how to play against them.
So, my emphatic no to the original post is because the SE damage isn't the real problem causing imbalance to PvP which is what the majority of the posts seemed to be saying in response to supporting the nerf. Now should Cryptic actually ever do something like I suggested and it remains clear that SE is too OP at any level, then for sure, it needs to be nerfed to make the game play more fun for us all.
*edit*
And one last thought -
My comparison of being 1 shotted by SE or even by the original 1 shot LA+LS to the Vanguard GWF who can prone you at-will is to point out that both have the same net effect which is leaving the "victim" feeling like why bother playing since I can't respond to this power. But a 1 shot SE takes time to recharge, whereas the at-will doesn't. This means a 1 shot can have a strategy devised to combat it. The at-will has no strategy that can be devised against it because there is no pause between the at-wills. Therefore the more serious "threat" to PvP balanced gameplay isn't the spike damage of the SE as it is the Vanguard at-will.
I'll be concerned about a TR's spiked SE if he can do that every 5 or 10 seconds.
Also, concerning SE being not dodgeable, that's wrong. I have had way too many of my "undodgeable" SEs dodged by CWs and DCs in the same match which made me think they had a cheat since it's supposed to be undodgeable. And I have been hit and killed by many Ice Knifes when I dodged. Obviously, a factor like lag time is involved in many of these encounters. But I no longer fixate on them and move on to other targets as the goal is to cap points to win. I am always learning new ways to kite players who are geared better than me when I have no way to out damage them.
And no, none of my characters are OP geared.
...and?
Freeze effects wear off very quickly in PvP, making them very unreliable for this purpose. What works better is using Ice Knife on a target rooted by Icy Rays or proned. Entangling Force might not even last long enough against some characters unless perhaps the CW has max Arcane stacks at the time.
Ice Knife requires setup to guarantee a hit and can still be countered by several common abilities (ITC, Unstoppable, and Divine Exaltation come to mind). Even when it does land, it won't be spectacular unless a crit is scored against a debuffed target.
Trying to compare IK to SE is just silly.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
but freeze can definitely last long enough for a ice knife to hit so it doesn't matter how short of a duration it is
and i still get hit for 15k by ice knives but i haven't run into the wizards capable of doing the 20k+ again but i know it exists
No, freeze will not last long enough to guarantee an Ice Knife hit unless MAYBE the target takes no damage whatsoever while the Ice Knife is winding up.
15k isn't much for a Daily. I've performed 20k+ IKs since the patch, but only on 10k GS people, players with no Tenacity, and those already hit by severe mitigation debuffs.
My experience with IK from my DC's perspective is that it's quite weak for how telegraphed it is. I've eaten literally 3 IKs in a row and kept on going while stubbornly rezzing a team mate. Sometimes I don't bother to use the stamina to dodge IK even when I hear it going off if I know the CW is weak. SE is far, far scarier in general.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
guessing freeze breaks upon being hit? figures since the 2 wizards who spammed that combo practically were the team as i saw very little of the other 3. probably explains y i rarely see a wizard using freeze.
i do have tenacity now, but i am only 11k gs so it might just be that i was fighting overgeared wizards.
not saying ice knife is stronger, but as a non-tanky cleric it has been an instant death to me on multiple occasions.
Yes, freeze breaks much more quickly when the target is being hit. It doesn't last long in PvP, anyway, but it can be broken almost instantly by receiving damage. It's a little different if more than one CW at a time is stacking Chill on you, because you can be frozen repeatedly.
A CW who outgears a DC should destroy it pretty quickly, so that's not just you. Even when all else is more or less equal, the CW has a significant advantage in that match-up and should dominate if they play smart and don't waste their big encounters while the DC is dodging or buffed up the yin-yang.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
It's really hard to treat you seriously Sir. Yes, SE is very powerful, but please stop talking such nonsense about Ice Knife. I regularly get on me Ice Kinfe crits in 12-15K area, and the biggest one I suffered was 21K (I had quite low base defense, but full T1 PvP armor set on me). And yeah, I'm definitely not in a top tier in PvP, so these number can probably go higher with 18K GS CWs.
All the damage numbers you see in PvP are very situational. Let's take that >200K SE video posted earlier in the topic. So yeah, 200K is insane damage, total overkill. And everyone yells "OMG, TR OP nerf SE". But why don't you see in that video that in fact what is OP is stacking buffs/debuffs! Why don't you scream "OMG, nerf CW/DC buffs/debuffs, so OP". Yeah, you just see the big number from TR which is a result of influence of other classes (but this aspect is not discussed).
I would like to see in such situation that instead of TR there would be 18K GS CW critting with Ice Knife.
If it goes as far as 60K (so enough to one-shot any player), does it mean Ice Knife is OP and it should be nerfed to the oblivion?
I'm really fed up towards all that negativity vs TR class. Lot of this QQ is from plain bad players who don't know their class nor have even basic knowledge what is TR. But the result is TR will be nerfed yet again. Probably next patch will bring stealth depleted by 50% with performing single at-will attack, SE damage nerfed by 80%, ITC will have 5 minutes cooldown and LB base damage nerfed by 50%, no autocrits from stealth.
The number one problem with TR is that they are single-target burst damage specialists so they are by defnition very strong class for PvP in terms of taking their opponents in a few moments if the circumstances are in favour of TR. When TRs are balanced so that they do not kill people do fat in PvP, in the process they become laughable for PvE.
This is the core of the problem - PvE and PvP are not separate enough in NWO.
In a lot of other games skills work differently for PvP and PvE. TR and every next class which is single-target as a result of PvP QQ will be nerfed so much that it will be not viable for dungeons runs enymore. Once in a while 50K SE on a one player in PvP from top end TR is opponent's death in most cases, so probably OP. But most of the TRs don't generate such high numbers anyway. The same 50K on a dragon with 3 millions HP? Not so impressive. And in reallity, average geared TR won't make SE over 30K in PvE.
SE it's perfect example how it is a problem. Insane power for PvP, nothing to rant about in PvE. I'm really OK with Cryptic altering the powers for PvP and PvE separately. So I can get my SE to crit for 100K on boss in PvE and cap the PvP cirt at 20K.
BTW. CW is the opposite, insanely OP in PvE to the level CW stacking is answer to everything.
Now as a TR I feel hated in PvP and useless in PvE...
Incoming proof from PvPers with maxed/almost maxed gear.
Not my fault you fight naked people.
When I use it on targets it seems to be WAI. Low hitpoint targets die, high hitpoint targets suffer moderate to low damage. Is there some comparable data to that provided above for Ice Knife or is all we have to work with anecdotal?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Data would be great to see so that we can verify or debunk claims of SE hitting for crazy damage on high HP targets. I suspect that it's more the case of SE's damage looking very high in comparison to everything else since players have more DR overall than they did before.
I personally don't want to see SE nerfed as an execution skill since it helps balance fights that might otherwise take a very long time, but I would like it to stop penetrating dodge and damage-immune status so that it takes a little skill and timing to get the big pay-off.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I can provide some data from top TRs when I meet them as well, if I don't forget to log
From my experiences earlier today:
20+ Tenacity 30% DR 35K HP CW (me)
Perfect Vorpal R7s TR (thanks Insomnia!)
Tests done from full HP. No buffs, no debuffs, I think the TR used some small attacks before SE (probably to proc stuff? Not a TR specialist...)
- non crit SE = 9-10K
- crit SE = 22K damage or so
Before Tenacity, TRs SEed me only when I was low, although they used other dailies usually. Nowadays some TRs SE me from whatever HP, and the good ones from 50% HP. If SE crits , it's usually SF proc (this is the sole reason I'm keeping SF to be honest), or death. If it doesn't crit, it's a hard hitting, normal daily on par with Ice Knife. As a comparison (since most people here compare the two).
- SE is basically always hitting (dodges are actually out of LoS/distance I think), penetrates defenses (whatever this might really mean...)
- IK is quite easy to dodge if not CCed, does comparable critical damage as a normal SE, adds stacks of Chill (so it's easier to get frozen after you get IKed), prones target (so you're open to other prones such as shard)
That's about it. Not getting into class balance discussion here. TRs have been repeatedly nerfed, it's ridiculous what's happening to the class.
Developers, don't be such in a hurry with the nerf hammer. Think about the consequences... breaking class for PvE being one, and forcing TRs into perma being another.
SE is supposed to ignore all DR (so 100% armour piercing) but what's not clear is if that also bypasses tenacity. It's not dodgeable unless you dodge outside the AoE, but it is interruptible.
IK is pretty survivable now I agree - even on my CW.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Youre full of it.
Youve not seen an iceknife come close to that damage unless the person is so debuffed that they were beyond negative mitigation.
IK does 1500 to 7k unless its a huge crit on a mass debuffed and thats usually 15ish tops. unless the person is so undergeared that it doesnt count.
Funny, i kill the everliving <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of GWFs with my wiz.
All the melee classes have real gap closers, why take that from the gwf?
TR isnt op, stop crying, learn to play.
Cant dodge it, ignores ALL defense and Tenacity.. Cannot deflect. And unless you kill them when you interrupt... They just hit it when they stand up lol, its still GG.
"Shocking Execution: The base damage of this power has been reduced by 60%"
Great job complaining.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
This, exactly!
And all the rogues saying how the class was "killed" or complaining about being "nerfed"... you cannot be serious. Have you played any other classes? My theory is the rogues that complain or have problems understanding:
1) are not high end pvp players who play a lot of matches
2) do not play their class correctly or make a lot of mistakes
3) have gear scores under or around 12k
3) are not experienced with playing other classes so they have no real perspective to judge properly
How these people think that being invisible, impossible to catch and immune from all prones and damage, untargetable the vast majority of time in combat, immune to all CCs with their at will (flurry) that stacks bleed damage (and poison with bilethorn), and have a non-dodgable SE "win" button is "killed" or "nerfed" somehow?
I mean, what else could you want? You have to be kidding me. With the regen nerf, rogues are gods in PvP at all levels.
And when their health is low, they can just go invisible and run get a health potion and come back and start over.
Trying to kill something you can't even see or prone (most high end players make very few mistakes if any), and then get my 40k health cut from 75% to 2% or dead in one single shot, is insane. That's not okay. How on earth is that okay?
And to the rogues who defense this, you have videos, screen caps, witnesses from extremely credible sources of some of the best and most honorable pvp players on the server... none of that is enough. Why? Because you want your non-skill one shot button that you can use when you can't be invisible or ITC or daze or smoke bomb.
Yes, I did type that correctly, 500k.
THis was in PVP.
I regularly see TRs hitting this on targets ABOVE 50% HP and either killing them or leaving them with such a small sliver of health, its not even funny.
The issue ISNT that it cuts through DR, the issue is that it gets TOO much of a bonus from HP loss too early on.
IMO, the skill should hit for almost nothing above 75% HP (3k CRIT or less). Above 50% it hits for a moderate amount (6-7k crits) and half HP to 25% a good amount (10k CRIT) but <25% pretty much finishes them off guaranteed....
Right now a TR can SE without Perf Vorp on a 60% life target and kill them. Pre pvp changes, on my Perf Vorp TR I actually 1 shot a CW with 100% HP as SE crit for over 20k... I wish I had that recorded because it was flat out dumb....
I think all that needs to happen is give SE a damage range about 4-6k Tooltip. Then, it gets a flat % boost based on % of missing HP.
So at 50% (50% missing) thats a 50% dmg boost, 4-6k = 6-8k. At 25% HP (75% missing) it gets a 75% Dmg boost. 7-10.5K dmg...
Obv these would be tweaked based on stats etc, but now youll have a 10.5k tooltip damage will crit someone for close to 20k but they must be really low... This seems balanced....
..I hope..
Whoever at Cryptic is responsible for heading up the Neverwinter team will suddenly have an amazing idea and tell the other NW devs that the game needs split PvE/PvP effects for skills. So that they can make PvE skills be one way and PvP skills be another way, which will make everyone's job easier and make the game tons of money from all the new happy customers they'll have.
One day.
TR has been nerfed constantly since beta.
I strongly believe that TR has been nerfed so much that it forces all TRs to focus on one specific build, with no room to go an alternate route without sacrificing too much.
"1) are not high end pvp players who play a lot of matches" - EoA member, done plenty of high-end PvP
"2) do not play their class correctly or make a lot of mistakes" - Know my class. See my guide.
"3) have gear scores under or around 12k" - GS 17k
"3) are not experienced with playing other classes so they have no real perspective to judge properly" - Have a character of each class and familiar with different builds/playstyles of all.
I played a TR with a hybrid damage & survivability build.
Before the tenacity patch:
Yes, I could one-shot badly geared pugs
Yes, I could 30-40k shocking badly geared pugs
Impact shots could go to 16k on badly geared pugs
All while retaining survivability against geared opponents by using SS and ITC and stacking HP+regen.
Because that's how I built my character.
Only a small percentage of TRs had the gear and build to be able to do high amounts of damage after Mod 2, and when they did, it was mostly on pugs with bad gear. If you go into PvP as a PUG with bad gear against skilled, geared, high-end PvPers. You will die, and they will stomp you. That's how it should be.
But so many people come to the forums complaining and QQing because they're butthurt that people that have better gear than them and are more skilled than them killed them so easily. And the devs actually listen.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
Where's my queue to fight against other less-geared players like myself and leave the top-tier PvPers to have their epic battles?
I only dabble in PvP, I have no business fighting dedicated PvPers and it's an insult to expect that they should waste their time on me.
really? my normal hits are like 10k and 19k on criticals to people around 40%. a 60% nerf pretty much killed any reason to use a daily on actual tanks since even whirlwind of blades will hit harder because 4k-7.6k is going to be pathetic as a daily.
funny thing is that a non-perma rogue is easily capable of killing anyone in a 1 vs 1 and sometimes even 1 vs 2-3.
gwf's r gonna be more of a problem now that our execute is gonna die, so gl everyone when u run into those nigh-immortal gwf's which do still exist.
if you have problem with dazing,bomb lol
More to the point, a one-hitter from Shocking Execution these days factor min/maxing stats, combined effects and a little bit of luck. Not that I'm against it. I built my TR around mitigation and deflect so I feel where you are coming from, having been killed from half health more often than I'd liked. It's vexing to be killed by inferior opponents (TR) even when you could have killed them with one round of DF 'cause they are that weak -- and that takes skill to land Duelist Flurry on a target that isn't a training dummy.
Disclaimer: I was going to ramble two sentences, but when I got down to the math, I seemed not to notice how much I've already typed. You can skip down to the good bits if you want.
As for Shocking Execution, whoever pointed it out first, yes, it means to execute. To kill. Doh. I agree. It should be able to kill. On the other hand, it should only be able to kill the enemy once prep work has been done -- means he has a sliver of health left, not from 50% to full health.
As a top gear TR, who did not spec into glass cannon if I should say, the highest Shocking Execution crit I've done is 36K on an HR. He has about 10% health left... talk about stupid. I could have Deft Strike'd him to death >:[
Here is the catch:
You are all discussing whether to nerf Shocking Execution or not. Do realize, that daily is not the culprit in its entirety. I don't care if what I'm going to say here are TR trade secrets, I'll tell you for the sake of clarity. To pull off a big number you would need several things:
1. Full Executioner Paragon Path - Overrun Critical Feat is the last 1pt feat in this path, which, after successfully landing a crit, your next attack will benefit from 30% of your Critical Severity.
2. Brutal Backstab Feat - While Stealthed you critical with 5/10/15/20/25% more severity.
3. First Strike Passive - Deal 5/10/15% extra damage on your first attack in combat. After you crit with an at will, enter stealth and run around for three seconds to disengage from battle, then hit shocking execution to fully benefit from the above 3 components.
That's not everything.
4. Full PvP Set Bonus - Deal 5% more damage while stealthed.
5. Deadly Momentum - Duelist Flurry gives you a stack of Deadly Momentum, can stack up to 5 times, and give an additional of 15% Critical Severity.
6. Shocking Execution - Deal 200% more damage to your opponent based from their missing HP.
Let's run a bit of math
Let us assume that, an average TR could SE at 7K non-crit, base damage.
P. Vorpal Critical Severity = 125%
Deadly Momentum Severity = 15%
Brutal Backstab Severity = 25%
Sum Critical Severity = 165%
Overrun Critical = 125% x 0.33 = 41.25% <- This applies to the base damage, not additive to your critical severity
Base damage = 7,000
eq. a: 7,000 x Set Bonus (1 + 0.05) = 7,350 base damage
eq. b: 7,350 x First Strike (1 + 0.15) = 8,452 non critical
eq. c: 8,452 x Overrun Critical (1 + 0.4125) = 11,938 non critical
eq. d: 11,938 x Missing HP Bonus (1 + 2.0) = 35,814 non critical
eq. e: 35,814 x Sum Critical Severity (1 + 1.65) = 94,907 critical damage
Add debuffs, you can guess how that 200K video became possible!
Compute mitigation, this is what the real numbers may look like:
eq. f: 94,907 - DR (ex. 0%; 1 - 0) = 94,907 <- It ignores DR. Tenacity is questionable, but I presume SE doesn't ignore Tenacity
eq. g: 94,907 - Tenacity DR (ex. 15%; 1 - 0.15) = 90,671 <- following what they say tenacity is applied after DR
eq. h: 80,671 - Tenacity Crit DR (ex. 15%; 1 - 0.15) = 68,570
Critical 68,570 is the big damage floater you will see provided all conditions are met: all above feats are activated, build bonuses, etc, and the opponent is at a sliver of health, maybe around 5K remaining HP. It's next to impossible to have all these conditions coincide the event of triggering your daily in fast-paced PvP combat. It's almost impossible to replicate these calculations and achieve the same end result if the enemy is at full health, except in isolated cases where the attacker is overgeared and the target is undergeared, and the attacker has spec'd and min/maxed his Power stat.
I am a top-geared TR. I am not spec'd for this kind of playstyle. I don't use Vorpal. If I should reiterrate, the highest I've hit an SE is 36K to an HR with about 3K or less remaining HP. On average, my critical Shocking Execution hits between 15K and 20K on an opponent below half health. The highest non-crit I pulled off was 10K. On a full HP target (which is stupid to try) I deal 5-7K damage.
Conclusion: Nerfing Shocking Execution on its own will break the skill to the point that it becomes useless in any PvP or PvE situation. With the right circumstances, I can easily produce high damage results with Whirlwind of Blades, which is an AoE, and kill up to 3 targets at once. I've done it on occasion.
The entire discussion by itself is pointless because it's not simply SE that is giving us the damage spikes. SE alone deals negligible damage. If the justification we've all been arguing is inaccurate, then rebalancing what seems to be the most obvious culprit would only serve as a superficial fix. After you nerf SE, you will have to deal with 20-30K Whirlwind of Blades AoE or something else.
Downright nerfing the Skill is not the answer. Please think about all the math I've done here, provide corrections if you may, but really think about a better solution besides a hotfix/nerf.