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Dungeons bosses are too hard for parties (Lvl 60) with low level gear
kralmoe
Member Posts: 42 Arc User
When queueing for dungeons you see that the min. gear score is between 5700 and 9200. My GS is 10,8. I have tried a few of them (Cragmire Crypts, Gray Wolf Den, Throne of Idris and some other that I dont recall the name) to get some better gear. All of them without success with a party I got in by queuing or by invitation (once). We manage every time to get to the end but the end boss+mobs seems to be too hard and after being wiped out 10 times people gets angry and start disconnecting.
Therefore in my honest opinion the demanded min GS is not correct. The hardness of the end boss/mobs should be lowered so that parties without über-gear can have the chance to kill the end boss. You see it's very frustrating being killed over and over for 1-2 hours (out of kits with severe injuries) and having to disconnect (or even rage quit) just because the end boss and mobs are too many and too hard for us (I repeat that my GS is 10,8; other players had a bit less GS and other higher GS). And we tried every possible tactic.
Please take this suggestion as a constructive critic to improve Neverwinter.
Thank you
Therefore in my honest opinion the demanded min GS is not correct. The hardness of the end boss/mobs should be lowered so that parties without über-gear can have the chance to kill the end boss. You see it's very frustrating being killed over and over for 1-2 hours (out of kits with severe injuries) and having to disconnect (or even rage quit) just because the end boss and mobs are too many and too hard for us (I repeat that my GS is 10,8; other players had a bit less GS and other higher GS). And we tried every possible tactic.
Please take this suggestion as a constructive critic to improve Neverwinter.
Thank you
Post edited by kralmoe on
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Comments
Your party/you were lacking in ability/tactics/strategy. At 10.8+ all the T1 dungeons are very doable. Grey wolf and Mad dragon are on the hard side of doable but Idris and Cragmire should be straightforward tank and spanks.
In Gray Wolf Den the 1st boss is a DPS race (everything else you kill will respawn almost instantly), 2nd boss is quite trivial, and if you avoid getting hit by the last boss melee skill (that spawns shadow wolves), it's pretty easy as well. Remove *all* companions that aren't stones/cats in the last fight, because if they get hit they will spawn wolves as well. Once you understand how it works it's easy.
In Cragmire Crypts only the last boss is somewhat troublesome, but it's because of adds. Ignore/avoid/cc the trash ones that respawn, always focus on elite ones when they spawn (the boss is quite easy to kite/dodge).
Idris is quite trivial as a boss if you have a decent GF. Just taunt all the golems, take them away from the party (and idris), the rest of the team focus on idris. I don't remember the other bosses there, but they weren't much of a problem IIRC.
Mad Dragon on the other side requires some serious coordination (and a bit better gear) that is not always feasible in PUGs.
That dungeon was pretty hard even on normal when at level.
They don't want to beat it; they want to beat it as fast as possible without wasting time wiping. So, they try to find people who are severely overgeared for the dungeon to beat it without issues (hopefully).
Pretty much this.
Mad dragon is the only one where you might get stuffed by non-ideal party composition, but all the other Tier 1s are doable, perhaps even at the minimum GS levels.
Well obviously if you have sufficiently low levels of skill, then no amount of gear will help.
All that game designers can do is try to make sure that it is possible for players to complete dungeons at the minimum required GS assuming they have the ability and willingness to learn. It is ridiculous to assume that you can face-roll everything without bothering to take the time to learn basic gameplay mechanics. All Tier 1s are doable in blue gear with rank 4s slotted - the only possible exception being Mad Dragon where team composition might, and I stress, might, be important.
They're not supposed to be too easy...and the majority of T1s are almost impossible to full party wipe on unless you're still in greens or something..
Well if you aren't running with a guide yeah they're going to be harder because you have to redo everyone's initial work in figuring out a strategy. That said there is no reason you shouldn't be able to complete any of the dungeons you mentioned in blues. You do need to communicate with the party, and you do need to run some strategy.
Even if you beet the boss you still need luck to get the item, and even if you do get it it doesnt help that much on next run.
And there is so many ppl out there claiming that dungeons are easy jet they are never to be seen in pug groups. And on the rare occasion they do they usually start yelling **** or worse. Nobody cares to explain or give advice. 75% of pugs dont complete the dungeon. Which is not surprising when it takes 30 mins waiting in queue then 1 hour to get to the last boss and then after 3 vipes players are tired.
All of this is based on my own expirience. Maybe someone has more luck/faith in the system. But as it is, ill stay away from dungeons
People who actually form groups on invite look for "exp" people for a reason. They don't simply need better gear in that dungeon, they want to actively farm it for something else (seals, trash purples for salvaging etc.)
These kind of groups are totally overgeared for the dungeon (often in the 14k+ GS range and mostly CW based) and want to farm it as fast as possible, as many times as possible per DD hour.
This is obviously not the kind of group that suits you... but most of these dungeons are doable with any assortment of classes, provided there is a GF. A CW might make things go way smoother though.
While the rng for good drops is harsh here imo. Saying that NWO has the hardest end bosses though feels completely false if you have played mmo's for a while. Most mmo's have bosses that will wipe parties if they aren't tanked, have add spawns that need to be tanked rather than kited, have bosses with special moves that can oneshot parties if not interrupted / avoided. Neverwinter has bosses that don't have any need to be tanked, and mobs that can either be ignored or kited. The bosses have no special attacks other than some red circles you need to avoid. The most interesting fight in the game was the dragon in MC with how you could slam or moc valindra and that was ruled to be a bug. Dungeon bosses in this game are very easy and very very boring.
Okay, this is a little eliteist sounding. Im happy to point out that not knowing how to navigate through an epic dungeon for the first or third time is hardly lacking in "skill" as this was stated. I believe this thread was started in hopes that mabie the GS requirements for certain dungeons would be looked at a year or so into the game release. And if I recall correctly, leveling to 60 was supposed to show us the game mechanics. These forums are meant for information and communication, please keep your responses respectful, and not insult people telling them what you assume they are lacking.
If anything it would be better if the rest of the dungeon were harder so you'd have some indication of whether or not you're going to make it.
I've pugged a lot. Before I found _legit, I pugged more or less exclusively. And all pugs are not created equal. It's not impossible to breeze through dungeons if you actually talk, use tactics, and work together.
And this was back in the days before artifacts and boons padded everyone's gearscore.
It's somewhat unfortunate that the better your gear is, the more you can phone it in, but it's true nevertheless. At the freshly-dinged 60 stage, this is not a luxury you have. So talk. Discuss tactics. Let the tanks actually tank (might as well use it before it becomes obsolete at higher gearing), let the clerics actually heal/mitgate. Work together. Focus fire. Save knockdowns for when other players' knockdowns are on cooldown. Stick together.
You should not be failing at cloak tower or cragmire. And Idris has only the one gimmick (kite the hulks). If you cannot get a party of randoms to work together long enough to finish those three, then leave that party.
Ask for a GF in LFG channel.
Against bosses 2 & 3 you need to methodically clear each level of adds. DO NOT try and aggro the entire boss room. A sub-par PUG will die. Against boss 2, enter, go left and clear group by group. Then reverse course, ALWAYS staying as close to the wall as possible, and clear the right side of the room. GF then taunts the adds upstairs until they are thinned out enough to fight the boss.
Against Idris (boss 3) the entire party waits at the foot of the stairs while the GF taunts the mobs upstairs one at a time. When the first level (there are two levels) is clear the party remains downstairs while the GF then heads upstairs, turns right and taunts the next set of adds atop the next level. Once the path is clear the GF then taunts Idris and brings her downstairs. At this point there should be minimal adds with Idris; 3 Hulks, maybe some archers and if the GF missed, a Doomsept or two. At the stage DO NOT kill the Hulks. It is a waste of time because they respawn. The GF must taunt all 3 Hulks and run away with them, kiting them between the pillars. The other 4 party members kill the remaining adds before burning Idris.
During boss 2 & 3 fights dismiss companions if it isn't a Stone or Cat. They can cause aggro problems while you are trying to clear the room.
Cragmire Crypts:
This should be a straight-forward fight until the last boss. Again, ask for a GF in LFG channel. Against the last boss the GF must taunt the boss and drag him into the corner where you enter. The remaining four attack archers and the Hexers who summon fire. Hexers need to go down first and fast as they can cause the GF problems. When Hexers and archers are under control all target boss.
Gray Wolf Den:
Burn bosses one and two as fast as possible is the only viable tactic. Again, a GF will help here, especially against 2nd boss as he can just taunt and draw adds away. 3rd boss; dismiss companions. Ranged classes (DC, CW & HR) must keep their distance from boss as when he hits you with his sword he summons wolves. Any melee (GF, TR, GWF) need to fight smart here. They need to dodge his sword attack. The ranged players (CW & HR) should always kill adds first before boss.
Mad Dragon:
Ignore and come back to this when you have some T2 gear and more experience. A sub 10k party will not beat this dungeon. The only time I have beaten this dungeon is when there are two or more full T2 players (12k + GS) in the party.
* I'd actually advise that in every boss fight you dismiss your companion if it isn't a Stone or Cat. Companions die fast and if they somehow survive for a while they cause aggro problems.
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If nobody knows it, then this place (or the wiki, or hell: google) is but an alt-tab away....
Alternatively, just spend some time on the wiki (http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Dungeon_Delve) or search for numerous threads on this board.
Also note that there is one Tier 1 and three Tier 2 Dungeons that might not be doable at minimum gear score: Mad Dragon, Caverns of Karrundax, Temple of the Spider and Dread Vault.
I think, if anything, they should raise the minimum gear score to force folks to run the epic campaigns. well, that would suck for vets because we want to start at epics as soon as we hit 60, but running the mini dungeons in Shan or DR will help you get experience and gear. Actually, if they did it like a game recommends processors - this is the min, this is the preferred gs (and gs is very meaninglesss after the initial gains my cw in full HV gear has a lower gs than when it was all mixed and matched gear)
I think the point here is you need to know what to do and to communicate. I ask people if it is thier first time through and even in parties where i know everyone has run it several times, i will confirm tactics, for example in TOS if half the party rushes the boss and half goes left to kill the adds, it is not going to go well, or in CC if you rush the boss before eliminating the 2 hexers, it will be a bumpy start.
As far as other mmos go, these are much easier than the epics in DDO or DCUO where you need a specific party composition and people on roles to complete.
on a fresh 20 you soloed Epic content? I am really talking about the raids and such... wait, you soloed Hound? ... not saying every one, but the majority of the group content in ddo needs a tactic and you are not going through it without some learning curve. Yes, if you are an uber toon in DDO, multi tr, you can solo plenty, but I cannot imagine you soloing the majority of the raid, i.e. epic content.
I think that yyrkoonstyphoon might have been comparing Epic 'Dungeons' in Neverwinter to their equivalent 'Raids' in DDO, not actual leveling instances.
I was comparing them to the EE non-raid endgame dungeons as I thought they were the closest but yes I do think he's speaking of raids now as well.
Maybe a possible solution could be to adapt the level of difficulty to the gear score average of the party. It's just a thought. Right now I will not use the queue to do any more dungeons. In fact I dont know if I will do any more dungeon for now due to the difficulty to find a party when you have 'bad gear' like me (10,8 GS) as somebody told me. I dont intend to spend my gaming time begging for a party for 1/2 hour.
I am positive that Neverwinter devs will take notice of this problem and try to solve it.
Greetings