First of all I thank you for your answers some of which are really helpfull, especially the ones concerning tactics to use in dungeons. I would not have started this thread if the end bosses were so easy. The lack of success I had with the different parties in some dungeons is a fact. It means that they are intended for players with higher level gear than the indicated in the queue and/or for parties with only very experienced players.
Maybe a possible solution could be to adapt the level of difficulty to the gear score average of the party. It's just a thought. Right now I will not use the queue to do any more dungeons. In fact I dont know if I will do any more dungeon for now due to the difficulty to find a party when you have 'bad gear' like me (10,8 GS) as somebody told me. I dont intend to spend my gaming time begging for a party for 1/2 hour.
I am positive that Neverwinter devs will take notice of this problem and try to solve it.
Greetings
Sadly it seems you didn't actually read the responses. Try running a party with coordination you'll have no problems completing.
First of all I thank you for your answers some of which are really helpfull, especially the ones concerning tactics to use in dungeons. I would not have started this thread if the end bosses were so easy. The lack of success I had with the different parties in some dungeons is a fact. It means that they are intended for players with higher level gear than the indicated in the queue and/or for parties with only very experienced players.
Maybe a possible solution could be to adapt the level of difficulty to the gear score average of the party. It's just a thought. Right now I will not use the queue to do any more dungeons. In fact I dont know if I will do any more dungeon for now due to the difficulty to find a party when you have 'bad gear' like me (10,8 GS) as somebody told me. I dont intend to spend my gaming time begging for a party for 1/2 hour.
I am positive that Neverwinter devs will take notice of this problem and try to solve it.
Greetings
Sorry to hear that, but you could consider joining a guild or /Legit channel as organized teams have a much higher success rate than PUGs.
When queueing for dungeons you see that the min. gear score is between 5700 and 9200. My GS is 10,8. I have tried a few of them (Cragmire Crypts, Gray Wolf Den, Throne of Idris and some other that I dont recall the name) to get some better gear. All of them without success with a party I got in by queuing or by invitation (once).
[snip]
Please take this suggestion as a constructive critic to improve Neverwinter.
Thank you
I was there once, and thought the same.
It helped me to join a guild, meet others and stay away from the PUG as such. Using the in game party system is the worst thing you can do, I think, unless you want an incredible hard challenge.
So, obviously, it helps to join a guild where some experienced players will go with you to T1's.
If you don't want to join a guild I suggest to recruit your own party in PE. Change to the /lfg channel and advertise your group or join an existing one. The lfg channel is way superior to the PUG. You know the groups that form there that the players from there have at least mastered the art of comprehensive reading and the very, very basics of the chat system.
The GS value is misleading in a way that I did perceive it as "can be mastered at" GS level, where in fact it is just a useless barrier of entrance to an epic dungeon.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited March 2014
I dont think its that bad pugging, I pug mostly, and most of the time people are cordial with each other , you finish and nobody ninja loots, however YOU may find some people who dont listen at all and do ninja loot, I find like 80% of the pugs work out fine. The other 20% is going to happen if you pug. Had a darn GWF who kept on running last night to get to campfires in ToS(even though the design of the dungeon prevents it) , we kept on saying stop.. but he kept on doing it, if it wasnt past DD hour we probably wouldve kicked him, he was a little bit of a moron, maybe he was drunk IDK .
You can do CC and CT several times get those two easily, you can probably queue for those and get them done , they are nothing but straight spank and tank dungeons with no coordination needed beyond do your job and dont stand in reds.
Idiris is harder, it took me several times with teams around the 9.5 gear score to compete, because people would get wiped on the the hulks or not burn archers down, this requires a little more cordination, you dont need a GF , but it doesnt hurt at the low gear scores.
Mad dragon is a PITA.. it simply is much harder then the lowest T2s (pirate in particular is a breeze with just a couple CWs on the team even at lower gear score, you can burn through pirate easier then Mad Dragon)
BTW, no one particular showed me to do anything , I read the forums and followed some advice on my DC, people have already been playing for awhile, just go to your class forum and ask how to gear up ect.. they will show you, most of the people are pretty friendly really!
You can get to 10k with no issues, 12k with some added work and 14k and beyond with some time invested. The hardest problem is you hit the enchant cost wall, where it just takes forever to upgrade one rank unless you get lucky in a roll . At 12k you can run any of the t2s up to CN and do ok. The problem doesnt lay with the person as much as the classes, no one really needs a HR, GF or TR to finish dungeons, they can just stack CWs and GWFs to do that, even a DC become redundant at some point, as people can just heal themselves.
Just as a guide... my first CN clear was with a party composition of 10k GS average...
Guide for ALL epic instances in this game for a non experienced player:
1. TALK. that's all, you are in a social game playing with other sentient human beings, so say "hi, i am not experienced in this dungeon", can we talk 1 minute before running ahead like headless chickens??? there are 3 possibilities that open after that important step, a, they do stop and talk, great, your chances to victory just increased dramatically, b, they ignore you (usually), insist! and if they keep ignoring you, quit the group. c, they answer you in some kind of extrange language and nobody speaks yours (sometimes), well, same as 2, quit the group.
2. no, that's all, talk.
Just as a tip, if you are learning to play, the role of your toon, how to defeat epics... try to recruit parties... not during delves!!!! go at the other 20 hours of the day to lfg channel (or much better nw_legit_community) and say, recruiting party to learn this dungeon, anyone wanna join/teach/learn with me? you will find likeminded players or good citizens or both (you sure will in legit, even during delves) but during delves 95% of the players want to run dungeons... fast and efficiently, not te time to teach anyone anything (legit being an exception there too, there are a bunch of old geezers who can teach anyone anytime for a pint of good beer).
No not a fresh toon, that would be hard, I was a completionist and had very good gear.
Seriously? thats like comparing an apple on the tree to apple pie. A completionist would likely be well beyond someone here with 18K+ GS with all bIS gear, legendary artifacts and lvl 10 enchants... the tomes alone would give a huge advantage I mean DDO content as a single or double tr was waaaay different than a fresh 20... which is what we are really talking about here.
Seriously? thats like comparing an apple on the tree to apple pie. A completionist would likely be well beyond someone here with 18K+ GS with all bIS gear, legendary artifacts and lvl 10 enchants... the tomes alone would give a huge advantage I mean DDO content as a single or double tr was waaaay different than a fresh 20... which is what we are really talking about here.
Actually it's a valid comparison. It compares endgame content with max achievable in game power to endgame content with max achievable in game power. When compared in that light, ddo is much much easier.
The problem doesnt lay with the person as much as the classes, no one really needs a HR, GF or TR to finish dungeons, they can just stack CWs and GWFs to do that, even a DC become redundant at some point, as people can just heal themselves.
Yeah, there are serious balance issues with classes doesn't help PUGS. While 3 CW can do any dungeon in the game I think, a debuff based DC can be EXTREMELY effective, so an ideal party might well be 3CW GWF DC. No denying though that currently HR, TR and GF are pretty second-rate.
Actually it's a valid comparison. It compares endgame content with max achievable in game power to endgame content with max achievable in game power. When compared in that light, ddo is much much easier.
from the guy saying people are not reading - this thread is about newer players not maximum achievable in game power and the fact that this game has no True Resurrection functionality, which gives more starting stat points, the tr bank so all your awesome gear is immediately available (when you meet the gear min lvl reqs but you can use crafting to reduce those as well), not to mention true res feats for additional abilities, or carry over tome stats ... Nope - no comparison. Very few players in DDO ever make it to completionist (this is doing a True res in each of the 12 classes for those that do not know - each giving a feat so a lvl 1 completionist has all these additional feats for example )
So a completionist reaching lvl 20 has access to almost all the accumulated gear form leveling the 12 times, plus all the additional feats... Seriously... no comparison to what this topic is about.
this thread would be about the person who just hit epics in ddo for the first time and meeting the min scores needed to run that content. no way that person is going to solo anything in that game.
This thread is depressing, as it reminds me of the actual cause of the problem, from pugging this stuff in beta (before you could gain massive amounts of power for free from boons). The issue is that basic competence is worth several thousand points of Gear Score. It doesn't matter if you go and buy a set of t2, some ancient weapons and a bunch of R8s if you forget that there is more to some fights than running at things and mashing buttons.
Every time a CW uses Ice Storm for no reason, the gods kill a kitten. Every time the DC runs around trying to Soothe, and the Guardian fighter just stands there meleeing the boss, every time the "n" word is used (hint, it ends with "oob"), those self same gods sigh inwardly and call the pet shop. It is necessary to have a bit of an idea of how to use your class, and how the dungeons work. You might feel like a world-bestriding colossus after levelling, but you should probably regard levelling as a very gentle single player tutorial- it doesn't mean that you have "won" the game, and thus are performing an effortless victory lap thereafter.
If you're stuck in a group with four confused Polish guys who just keep beating their faces blankly against a boss and dying horribly, you realise that using google translate to say "you really need to avoid the melee attack, as you're spawning all those shadow wolves" just won't cut it. People need to communicate. People need to read the forums, not just write to them. You could try joining guilds and asking advice. If you can't figure out the fight for yourself, the information is available for remarkably small amounts of effort. It's really worth giving it a try, you'll be a lot less frustrated and have a much better time.
Honestly, I know that this is supposed to be a mass market game aimed at having a low barrier to entry, and it's actually really good at that- and it's not hard. If something seems difficult, it's because you're missing something vital- so ask for help, or even (heavens forefend) try a bit of a google. However, don't expect the whole game to be made even easier so that there's no wrong way to do anything, and prizes for all at all times, as that will kill everyone's fun- including yours.
I remember threads like this a long, long time ago on these forums. It really comes down to the players. However, I will say that the basic GS suggested in many of these dungeons is NOT on par with what the dungeon requires. The original MD, for example, was essentially impossible without at least one jacked player. Case in point, I did epic MD two weeks ago with some pugs, just for the hell of it, and ended up soloing the boss from 3/4 life all by myself because they went down in a minute or two, in spite of having the required GS. They weren't bad players, either.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
1) coordination is everything. It is easy to clear if you are overgeared CW (I am now), but I remember clearing spellplague in a 9-10k team, without artifacts, pets, etc... We got on raidcall, coordinated our pulls and strategy, planned out the encounter and it was smooth.
2) I agree the minimum GS requirements are just plain silly. Of course, maybe it's possible to beat GWF with 6800 GS, but idk how
3) Seriously? Does any 60 have a GS that low? I got my 8th character to 60, spent very little AD on her (say 50k), use rank 4 enchantments, and I have a 9.5k GS? if you have no resources at all, shouldn't you get like 8.5k without trying? I guess i just don't get it how you can't gear up, at least a little.
4) I don't think GWD/MD require multiple CWs, those boss fights are doable with less, because there aren't 100000 adds. the only issue is having the DPS to kill the eriyness. I remember when MD was hard, but since shadowmantle it seems easy, but i am overgeared and can't judge.
twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited March 2014
A minimum gear score requirement is just that, the minimum required to get in. It's nothing more. It's not a guarantee that you can finish the epic dungeon at that gs. Your ability to defeat the dungeon is based on skill level, knowledge of the run/boss fights, and team work.
In general, the closer your GS to the minimum level, the more you will depend on skill and tactics. The higher you get above the GS, the less tactics will be required (as a general rule).
Also remember that back in the day, TRs were actually amazing boss-soloing classes. To be honest, they still are, it's just that above a certain point this isn't necessary (coz zerg burn), so all the good ones are mostly retiring or idling, and all the newer ones don't realise this (and to a certain extent boon/artifact bloat has diminished their necessity. Also they've been nerfed quite a lot).
While it's counter-intuitive to a certain extent, for trickier bosses, "TR on boss, everyone else handles adds" is still not a bad strategy. A good TR can solo kill chartilifax, for instance, letting everyone else concentrate on imp/magus/enrynes duty.
3) Seriously? Does any 60 have a GS that low? I got my 8th character to 60, spent very little AD on her (say 50k), use rank 4 enchantments, and I have a 9.5k GS? if you have no resources at all, shouldn't you get like 8.5k without trying? I guess i just don't get it how you can't gear up, at least a little.
About 1k-2kAD on blues, plus some boons and cheap gems will get you very viable for a pittance almost instantly these days. Unless someone wasted all their money on junk while levelling, this is very doable indeed for minimal cost and effort, you're right.
What's more, doing dailies to get those boons will yield quite a lot of decent random purples too.
So yes, you're right, it's very hard to be under 10k if you make any effort at all, these days.
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
A -lot- of people are forgetting how difficult these were when they were new to them and their characters were not so well geared.
These dungeons are in fact, hard. They are in fact, harder than they should be. Mad Dragon isn't even in distant sight of what a T1 should be.
They mostly require certain tactics to defeat them, and if you don't know those or don't figure them out, you are going to fail. With pugs, this is very often hard or impossible to do, because everyone is the star of their own movie, and people don't listen all that often when someone tries to pull things together.
T1's should be trainer dungeons. They should be a little more forgiving than they are, and the tactics needed to beat them should be a little more obvious. Reason is, people jump in these, no one wants to look bad. So they are concentrating on staying alive and trying to perform, when they should be observing and making adjustments. And communicating.
I think they need to be reworked so they are more beneficial to lowbies and new players and much less useful to well geared and experienced players. Maybe base that on a team average so it would be worth the experienced, well geared player's time to lead a team of lowbies into them.
Lots of people boosting their own ego's by shouting how easy everything is.. T1's should not be as frustrating as they can be. It's really simple. Do I have a hard time with any of them? No (Well maybe Mad Dragon gets annoying sometimes, depending.) But it was definitely not always like that for me.
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
A -lot- of people are forgetting how difficult these were when they were new to them and their characters were not so well geared.
These dungeons are in fact, hard. They are in fact, harder than they should be. Mad Dragon isn't even in distant sight of what a T1 should be.
They mostly require certain tactics to defeat them, and if you don't know those or don't figure them out, you are going to fail. With pugs, this is very often hard or impossible to do, because everyone is the star of their own movie, and people don't listen all that often when someone tries to pull things together.
T1's should be trainer dungeons. They should be a little more forgiving than they are, and the tactics needed to beat them should be a little more obvious. Reason is, people jump in these, no one wants to look bad. So they are concentrating on staying alive and trying to perform, when they should be observing and making adjustments. And communicating.
I think they need to be reworked so they are more beneficial to lowbies and new players and much less useful to well geared and experienced players. Maybe base that on a team average so it would be worth the experienced, well geared player's time to lead a team of lowbies into them.
Lots of people boosting their own ego's by shouting how easy everything is.. T1's should not be as frustrating as they can be. It's really simple. Do I have a hard time with any of them? No (Well maybe Mad Dragon gets annoying sometimes, depending.) But it was definitely not always like that for me.
I do not think the T1 should be changed or designated as 'training'. I do remember how hard they were and frustrating - look at my post history and you will see me posting about it, but i received the same feedback and adjusted.
I think that now that we have 2 epic campaigns, the focus should be to direct the 'new to 60' croud there. They have a difficulty jump from the heroic content, and I think if people begin to group there and run the various 'Keyed' lairs, they will get some of the training they need. There should be a bit more in game guidance as well.
that said, if there were more channels like the legit channel, folks would have better access to the learning and cooperation you need. Perhaps we need a 'teaching channel' that we can direct folks toward and then groups formed in there will focus on growing the community and player skill set.
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
You may be right, Yyrkoon. Maybe they should be left as is. Maybe some actual made-for-purpose training dungeons should be made. I don't think those zone cap lairs in Dread or Sharandar fit the bill, though. Those lairs really are too easy solo and no challenge at all for any team, no matter how badly geared.
The Legit channel is awesome, and I get calls for players answered there a lot, and so far no bad experience. But you have to admit, that lowbies still tend to get snubbed there. Maybe a new similar channel, for lowbies to frequent (yes that includes low geared alts, mine and yours) and the experienced/geared folks can go there and be Obi Wan for a day. haha
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
A -lot- of people are forgetting how difficult these were when they were new to them and their characters were not so well geared.
These dungeons are in fact, hard. They are in fact, harder than they should be. Mad Dragon isn't even in distant sight of what a T1 should be.
T1's should be trainer dungeons. They should be a little more forgiving than they are, and the tactics needed to beat them should be a little more obvious. Reason is, people jump in these, no one wants to look bad. So they are concentrating on staying alive and trying to perform, when they should be observing and making adjustments. And communicating.
Sort of agree. As other people have pointed out, Mad Dragon and Pirate King could have easily been swapped in the Tiers and no-one would have batted an eyelid.
Still almost all the Tier 1s and a some of the Tier 2s can be done by a co-ordinated group in Blues with Rank 4s so it really does come down to player skill and knowledge.
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
True, MC, but the keyword is coordinated. The people who are using these the most are most likely new players who haven't yet got enough in-game contacts to really coordinate.. they are pugging with equally bewildered people. And you know the nice/jerk ratio isn't all that great and patience wears thin, rapidly.
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
True, MC, but the keyword is coordinated. The people who are using these the most are most likely new players who haven't yet got enough in-game contacts to really coordinate.. they are pugging with equally bewildered people. And you know the nice/jerk ratio isn't all that great and patience wears thin, rapidly.
A valid point, but the values quoted are just the minimum required GS - i.e. the one where it is possible with a knowledgeable and skilled group.
Perhaps, they could consider a 'Recommended' value as well, but that could open up a lot of issues with PUGs kicking lower GS players. Or perhaps just have a 'Recommended' value for the harder dungeons in each Tier?
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Yeah I guess we will never get a 'Perfect World' scenario.. haha..
That's not a bad suggestion, but your caveat is also likely to manifest.
I think they need to create one trainer dungeon. Say, it gets you a full set of starter gear when you succeed enough times, and introduces you to a lot of the mechanics and tactics you will need to know to do the real T1's. The materials if gives should be made unfarmable, so that it doesn't get abused. By the time anyone earned the full set here, they should be ready to face the greater challenge.
(Maybe the set could be an earned token purchase, bind to account.)
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
Yeah I guess we will never get a 'Perfect World' scenario.. haha..
That's not a bad suggestion, but your caveat is also likely to manifest.
I think they need to create one trainer dungeon. Say, it gets you a full set of starter gear when you succeed enough times, and introduces you to a lot of the mechanics and tactics you will need to know to do the real T1's. The materials if gives should be made unfarmable, so that it doesn't get abused. By the time anyone earned the full set here, they should be ready to face the greater challenge.
(Maybe the set could be an earned token purchase, bind to account.)
Well we already have starter dungeons in the form of the Cloak Tower and Cragmire Crypts which drop Seal of the Unicorn, but these are just not used by most people.
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
That's true. I think they would get more play if people realized what they can do with the seals. And it does take an awful lot of those seals, for gear that's not going to be around for very long in most cases.
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
When queueing for dungeons you see that the min. gear score is between 5700 and 9200. My GS is 10,8. I have tried a few of them (Cragmire Crypts, Gray Wolf Den, Throne of Idris and some other that I dont recall the name) to get some better gear. All of them without success with a party I got in by queuing or by invitation (once). We manage every time to get to the end but the end boss+mobs seems to be too hard and after being wiped out 10 times people gets angry and start disconnecting.
Therefore in my honest opinion the demanded min GS is not correct. The hardness of the end boss/mobs should be lowered so that parties without über-gear can have the chance to kill the end boss. You see it's very frustrating being killed over and over for 1-2 hours (out of kits with severe injuries) and having to disconnect (or even rage quit) just because the end boss and mobs are too many and too hard for us (I repeat that my GS is 10,8; other players had a bit less GS and other higher GS). And we tried every possible tactic.
Please take this suggestion as a constructive critic to improve Neverwinter.
Thank you
1 search the forum or even google about tactics and strategies on how to deal with bosses in every dungeon.
2 wrong party formation. try adding a gf or a tr to party instead of going for the" "lets have an all gwf and cw party". these guys will bring you to the "promised land" but the ones that have the "key to open the gates" are lesser wanted classes
3 the simple solution: take a "premastealth" tr to solo last boss or hard boss. im a "premasteath" tr i stopped counting how many times i had to solo bosses cause party had no coordination. pk/fh/gwd u name it,i solo all bosses.
hope this info helps.
1 search the forum or even google about tactics and strategies on how to deal with bosses in every dungeon.
2 wrong party formation. try adding a gf or a tr to party instead of going for the" "lets have an all gwf and cw party". these guys will bring you to the "promised land" but the ones that have the "key to open the gates" are lesser wanted classes
3 the simple solution: take a "premastealth" tr to solo last boss or hard boss. im a "premasteath" tr i stopped counting how many times i had to solo bosses cause party had no coordination. pk/fh/gwd u name it,i solo all bosses.
hope this info helps.
I'm really tempted to roll my TR into permastealth now but /legit is really nice about taking both new people and (of which I am both)
Maybe once I level a DC I'll change my rogue to permastealth and carry some PUGs.
Anyway, to emphasize points again.. communicate and take an exp'd player or two
They mostly require certain tactics to defeat them, and if you don't know those or don't figure them out, you are going to fail. With pugs, this is very often hard or impossible to do, because everyone is the star of their own movie, and people don't listen all that often when someone tries to pull things together.
You say this like it's a bad thing. T1's are part of endgame content. Endgame content should always smash the uncoordinated faces in. I'd love to see real complexity added so that you can't faceroll even when overgeared.
as a cleric, i could never reliably survive mad dragon due to every mob making a beeline for me and eventually killing me. then i got my frost weapon enchant and everything changed. anything that got near me, i could stun for 4 seconds with an aoe and they will probably be dead or attacking someone else afterwards. a 4 sec stun with a 20 sec cooldown per mob and an aoe with a 9.5 sec cooldown r quite useful together. of course, this dungeon would be a lot easier if everyone stayed within astral shield radius of me to protect me while i heal them while the tank deals with the boss in some corner but some groups have an issue with doing either of those xD
even spider got easier since blademasters love to charge me often, but is still not consistantly winnable.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
There's a point here - you have to learn teamwork sometime. Without teamwork, even good teams fail.
Comments
Sorry to hear that, but you could consider joining a guild or /Legit channel as organized teams have a much higher success rate than PUGs.
The Legit channel is actually a great place to find a group to help you complete a dungeon with minimal drama.
It helped me to join a guild, meet others and stay away from the PUG as such. Using the in game party system is the worst thing you can do, I think, unless you want an incredible hard challenge.
So, obviously, it helps to join a guild where some experienced players will go with you to T1's.
If you don't want to join a guild I suggest to recruit your own party in PE. Change to the /lfg channel and advertise your group or join an existing one. The lfg channel is way superior to the PUG. You know the groups that form there that the players from there have at least mastered the art of comprehensive reading and the very, very basics of the chat system.
The GS value is misleading in a way that I did perceive it as "can be mastered at" GS level, where in fact it is just a useless barrier of entrance to an epic dungeon.
You can do CC and CT several times get those two easily, you can probably queue for those and get them done , they are nothing but straight spank and tank dungeons with no coordination needed beyond do your job and dont stand in reds.
Idiris is harder, it took me several times with teams around the 9.5 gear score to compete, because people would get wiped on the the hulks or not burn archers down, this requires a little more cordination, you dont need a GF , but it doesnt hurt at the low gear scores.
Mad dragon is a PITA.. it simply is much harder then the lowest T2s (pirate in particular is a breeze with just a couple CWs on the team even at lower gear score, you can burn through pirate easier then Mad Dragon)
BTW, no one particular showed me to do anything , I read the forums and followed some advice on my DC, people have already been playing for awhile, just go to your class forum and ask how to gear up ect.. they will show you, most of the people are pretty friendly really!
You can get to 10k with no issues, 12k with some added work and 14k and beyond with some time invested. The hardest problem is you hit the enchant cost wall, where it just takes forever to upgrade one rank unless you get lucky in a roll . At 12k you can run any of the t2s up to CN and do ok. The problem doesnt lay with the person as much as the classes, no one really needs a HR, GF or TR to finish dungeons, they can just stack CWs and GWFs to do that, even a DC become redundant at some point, as people can just heal themselves.
You can always start your own groups though...
Guide for ALL epic instances in this game for a non experienced player:
1. TALK. that's all, you are in a social game playing with other sentient human beings, so say "hi, i am not experienced in this dungeon", can we talk 1 minute before running ahead like headless chickens??? there are 3 possibilities that open after that important step, a, they do stop and talk, great, your chances to victory just increased dramatically, b, they ignore you (usually), insist! and if they keep ignoring you, quit the group. c, they answer you in some kind of extrange language and nobody speaks yours (sometimes), well, same as 2, quit the group.
2. no, that's all, talk.
Just as a tip, if you are learning to play, the role of your toon, how to defeat epics... try to recruit parties... not during delves!!!! go at the other 20 hours of the day to lfg channel (or much better nw_legit_community) and say, recruiting party to learn this dungeon, anyone wanna join/teach/learn with me? you will find likeminded players or good citizens or both (you sure will in legit, even during delves) but during delves 95% of the players want to run dungeons... fast and efficiently, not te time to teach anyone anything (legit being an exception there too, there are a bunch of old geezers who can teach anyone anytime for a pint of good beer).
Seriously? thats like comparing an apple on the tree to apple pie. A completionist would likely be well beyond someone here with 18K+ GS with all bIS gear, legendary artifacts and lvl 10 enchants... the tomes alone would give a huge advantage I mean DDO content as a single or double tr was waaaay different than a fresh 20... which is what we are really talking about here.
Actually it's a valid comparison. It compares endgame content with max achievable in game power to endgame content with max achievable in game power. When compared in that light, ddo is much much easier.
Sadly this really doesn't help PUGs, although the OP could always form his own group stacking CWs like everyone else.
Yeah, there are serious balance issues with classes doesn't help PUGS. While 3 CW can do any dungeon in the game I think, a debuff based DC can be EXTREMELY effective, so an ideal party might well be 3CW GWF DC. No denying though that currently HR, TR and GF are pretty second-rate.
from the guy saying people are not reading - this thread is about newer players not maximum achievable in game power and the fact that this game has no True Resurrection functionality, which gives more starting stat points, the tr bank so all your awesome gear is immediately available (when you meet the gear min lvl reqs but you can use crafting to reduce those as well), not to mention true res feats for additional abilities, or carry over tome stats ... Nope - no comparison. Very few players in DDO ever make it to completionist (this is doing a True res in each of the 12 classes for those that do not know - each giving a feat so a lvl 1 completionist has all these additional feats for example )
So a completionist reaching lvl 20 has access to almost all the accumulated gear form leveling the 12 times, plus all the additional feats... Seriously... no comparison to what this topic is about.
this thread would be about the person who just hit epics in ddo for the first time and meeting the min scores needed to run that content. no way that person is going to solo anything in that game.
Every time a CW uses Ice Storm for no reason, the gods kill a kitten. Every time the DC runs around trying to Soothe, and the Guardian fighter just stands there meleeing the boss, every time the "n" word is used (hint, it ends with "oob"), those self same gods sigh inwardly and call the pet shop. It is necessary to have a bit of an idea of how to use your class, and how the dungeons work. You might feel like a world-bestriding colossus after levelling, but you should probably regard levelling as a very gentle single player tutorial- it doesn't mean that you have "won" the game, and thus are performing an effortless victory lap thereafter.
If you're stuck in a group with four confused Polish guys who just keep beating their faces blankly against a boss and dying horribly, you realise that using google translate to say "you really need to avoid the melee attack, as you're spawning all those shadow wolves" just won't cut it. People need to communicate. People need to read the forums, not just write to them. You could try joining guilds and asking advice. If you can't figure out the fight for yourself, the information is available for remarkably small amounts of effort. It's really worth giving it a try, you'll be a lot less frustrated and have a much better time.
Honestly, I know that this is supposed to be a mass market game aimed at having a low barrier to entry, and it's actually really good at that- and it's not hard. If something seems difficult, it's because you're missing something vital- so ask for help, or even (heavens forefend) try a bit of a google. However, don't expect the whole game to be made even easier so that there's no wrong way to do anything, and prizes for all at all times, as that will kill everyone's fun- including yours.
2) I agree the minimum GS requirements are just plain silly. Of course, maybe it's possible to beat GWF with 6800 GS, but idk how
3) Seriously? Does any 60 have a GS that low? I got my 8th character to 60, spent very little AD on her (say 50k), use rank 4 enchantments, and I have a 9.5k GS? if you have no resources at all, shouldn't you get like 8.5k without trying? I guess i just don't get it how you can't gear up, at least a little.
4) I don't think GWD/MD require multiple CWs, those boss fights are doable with less, because there aren't 100000 adds. the only issue is having the DPS to kill the eriyness. I remember when MD was hard, but since shadowmantle it seems easy, but i am overgeared and can't judge.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
In general, the closer your GS to the minimum level, the more you will depend on skill and tactics. The higher you get above the GS, the less tactics will be required (as a general rule).
While it's counter-intuitive to a certain extent, for trickier bosses, "TR on boss, everyone else handles adds" is still not a bad strategy. A good TR can solo kill chartilifax, for instance, letting everyone else concentrate on imp/magus/enrynes duty.
About 1k-2kAD on blues, plus some boons and cheap gems will get you very viable for a pittance almost instantly these days. Unless someone wasted all their money on junk while levelling, this is very doable indeed for minimal cost and effort, you're right.
What's more, doing dailies to get those boons will yield quite a lot of decent random purples too.
So yes, you're right, it's very hard to be under 10k if you make any effort at all, these days.
These dungeons are in fact, hard. They are in fact, harder than they should be. Mad Dragon isn't even in distant sight of what a T1 should be.
They mostly require certain tactics to defeat them, and if you don't know those or don't figure them out, you are going to fail. With pugs, this is very often hard or impossible to do, because everyone is the star of their own movie, and people don't listen all that often when someone tries to pull things together.
T1's should be trainer dungeons. They should be a little more forgiving than they are, and the tactics needed to beat them should be a little more obvious. Reason is, people jump in these, no one wants to look bad. So they are concentrating on staying alive and trying to perform, when they should be observing and making adjustments. And communicating.
I think they need to be reworked so they are more beneficial to lowbies and new players and much less useful to well geared and experienced players. Maybe base that on a team average so it would be worth the experienced, well geared player's time to lead a team of lowbies into them.
Lots of people boosting their own ego's by shouting how easy everything is.. T1's should not be as frustrating as they can be. It's really simple. Do I have a hard time with any of them? No (Well maybe Mad Dragon gets annoying sometimes, depending.) But it was definitely not always like that for me.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
I do not think the T1 should be changed or designated as 'training'. I do remember how hard they were and frustrating - look at my post history and you will see me posting about it, but i received the same feedback and adjusted.
I think that now that we have 2 epic campaigns, the focus should be to direct the 'new to 60' croud there. They have a difficulty jump from the heroic content, and I think if people begin to group there and run the various 'Keyed' lairs, they will get some of the training they need. There should be a bit more in game guidance as well.
that said, if there were more channels like the legit channel, folks would have better access to the learning and cooperation you need. Perhaps we need a 'teaching channel' that we can direct folks toward and then groups formed in there will focus on growing the community and player skill set.
The Legit channel is awesome, and I get calls for players answered there a lot, and so far no bad experience. But you have to admit, that lowbies still tend to get snubbed there. Maybe a new similar channel, for lowbies to frequent (yes that includes low geared alts, mine and yours) and the experienced/geared folks can go there and be Obi Wan for a day. haha
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
Sort of agree. As other people have pointed out, Mad Dragon and Pirate King could have easily been swapped in the Tiers and no-one would have batted an eyelid.
Still almost all the Tier 1s and a some of the Tier 2s can be done by a co-ordinated group in Blues with Rank 4s so it really does come down to player skill and knowledge.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
A valid point, but the values quoted are just the minimum required GS - i.e. the one where it is possible with a knowledgeable and skilled group.
Perhaps, they could consider a 'Recommended' value as well, but that could open up a lot of issues with PUGs kicking lower GS players. Or perhaps just have a 'Recommended' value for the harder dungeons in each Tier?
That's not a bad suggestion, but your caveat is also likely to manifest.
I think they need to create one trainer dungeon. Say, it gets you a full set of starter gear when you succeed enough times, and introduces you to a lot of the mechanics and tactics you will need to know to do the real T1's. The materials if gives should be made unfarmable, so that it doesn't get abused. By the time anyone earned the full set here, they should be ready to face the greater challenge.
(Maybe the set could be an earned token purchase, bind to account.)
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
Well we already have starter dungeons in the form of the Cloak Tower and Cragmire Crypts which drop Seal of the Unicorn, but these are just not used by most people.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
1 search the forum or even google about tactics and strategies on how to deal with bosses in every dungeon.
2 wrong party formation. try adding a gf or a tr to party instead of going for the" "lets have an all gwf and cw party". these guys will bring you to the "promised land" but the ones that have the "key to open the gates" are lesser wanted classes
3 the simple solution: take a "premastealth" tr to solo last boss or hard boss. im a "premasteath" tr i stopped counting how many times i had to solo bosses cause party had no coordination. pk/fh/gwd u name it,i solo all bosses.
hope this info helps.
I'm really tempted to roll my TR into permastealth now but /legit is really nice about taking both new people and (of which I am both)
Maybe once I level a DC I'll change my rogue to permastealth and carry some PUGs.
Anyway, to emphasize points again.. communicate and take an exp'd player or two
You say this like it's a bad thing. T1's are part of endgame content. Endgame content should always smash the uncoordinated faces in. I'd love to see real complexity added so that you can't faceroll even when overgeared.
even spider got easier since blademasters love to charge me often, but is still not consistantly winnable.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know