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Thoughts on PVP tonight...
silverkelt
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
Well first off.. it took about 45 mins between each match, so theres that and its supposed to be fixed.
Secondly even thought I traded in my prophet champion for the grim set, its sitting in the bank, going to be a bit before I can enchant it up ect..
Otherwise this is what I felt.. I slotted Divine Armor , Healing Word and Astral Shield, did holy fervor and hit HG when I could.. won all three matches I was in.. overall, it pretty much felt pretty similar except I couldn't hold nodes by myself worth anything Hrs could snipe me down quickly, If I followed team around was best bet, so pretty much just went as a healer/buffer and it went ok. Overall gwfs could still kill me quickly, however, I wasn't always insta cc;d to death, which was nice.
I see people already complaining about the changes, Im not a huge fan of the healing depression + righteousness , it seems a little tad much on the DC, I suppose if you already are geared with the tenacity stuff, let us know what your thoughts our.
Is it worth getting very high tenacity or not? Honestly did one match in High Prophet did another in Miracle healer and switched back to HP for the 3rd, just to see how it felt to me.
Im not a pvp pro, but I do enjoy the matches , I think overall , the changes seemed ok to me, playing on DC not totally specced for pvp mode.
Silverkelt
Secondly even thought I traded in my prophet champion for the grim set, its sitting in the bank, going to be a bit before I can enchant it up ect..
Otherwise this is what I felt.. I slotted Divine Armor , Healing Word and Astral Shield, did holy fervor and hit HG when I could.. won all three matches I was in.. overall, it pretty much felt pretty similar except I couldn't hold nodes by myself worth anything Hrs could snipe me down quickly, If I followed team around was best bet, so pretty much just went as a healer/buffer and it went ok. Overall gwfs could still kill me quickly, however, I wasn't always insta cc;d to death, which was nice.
I see people already complaining about the changes, Im not a huge fan of the healing depression + righteousness , it seems a little tad much on the DC, I suppose if you already are geared with the tenacity stuff, let us know what your thoughts our.
Is it worth getting very high tenacity or not? Honestly did one match in High Prophet did another in Miracle healer and switched back to HP for the 3rd, just to see how it felt to me.
Im not a pvp pro, but I do enjoy the matches , I think overall , the changes seemed ok to me, playing on DC not totally specced for pvp mode.
Silverkelt
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My DC is extremely tanky and difficult to kill. I can pretty much duo any class down. 2-3 v 1 is viable as long as they aren't cw's.
Cw's 1 v 1 are no problem now.
Most people don't want to give up their crit stats or power from their pve gear but don't realize how the stats pale in comparison to tenacity and hp at this moment.
To be honest I feel way more tankier now. Also I think people will switch back to DO as spike damage isn't something you have to worry too much about and DO's fire and forget playstyle is really going to shine in pvp.
If you have no tenacity, you are going to get rocked. If you go in with your pve gear, you are going to get rocked.
I saved up 25k glory and got a full set including weapons of GG gear to prepare for it and it's way fun.
1. Healing Depression is a little excessive. Besides the impact to direct healing, temp HP abilities have become very weak as a result. Divine Armor, Anointed Holy Symbol, etc. all took a huge nerf arrow to the knee.
2. The further increased damage resistance makes it even more difficult for the usual suspects to burst a DC down. At one point I was holding off a decently geared CW and HR, getting CCed like crazy, and still surviving.
3. On the other hand, it's now possible to get nickel-and-dimed to death by sheer zerg tactics. Since our self-healing is so incredibly poor now, attrition from multiple sources of relatively low damage will eventually kill us. The frustrating thing is when you die to players who aren't using any particularly amazing strategy simply because your healing and temp HP buffers are so ineffective that even awful players will eventually kill you if they keep plugging away.
4. When I played against DCs while on my CW, I noticed that some of them were using Break the Spirit, Chains, and other offensive Powers to try to DPS and debuff me, and none of it was particularly impressive. DC Healing in combat may be severely curtailed right now, but if the damage potential wasn't there before the patch, it certainly isn't there now that everyone's damage took a nosedive. I think certain debuff powers might become more widely used, but I'm not any more sold on the idea of PvP DPS DCs now than I was before.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I was using my usual +HP jewelry etc along with blue regen pieces still. I didn't have any pvp gear at the time, and it's probably fine to PVP without much of the new gear (for casual pvpers that is) for the first two weeks or so, after that most people will have had time to start stacking tenacity. After that you'd just be way to squishy without it. Eventually i would assume that tenacity will be valuable enough in PVP that you will stack it on every item including the PVP weps. I currently will skip the weps until I've got everything else I feel I need, since my fomorian has a higher base damage.
Anyways I picked up 3 pieces of the HP grim set, fiathful I think it is, I figure that +max HP is probably still going to be one of the most effective stats to stack. The set that gives deflect seemed decent too. I feel like crit is now a pretty poor PVP stat, especially for us clerics. I'd probably stack Apen before crit now, even though I've got a vorpal...which is considerably less impressive now. I'm sure I'd swap this out if I wanted to get more serious about PVP.
I'd think that AC would still be the standard for PVP (Im DO currently) because of the added DR and deflect primarily. Plus I feel like exaltation has just become even better for PVP. With that said I think DO is more viable now just from the base DR provided by foresight and the interesting idea of speccing into both power of the sun and power of oppression. This of course sets up a bit of a different playstyle since you don't really spam at-wills. I think that terryfying insight could become viable in PVP now, I feel like healer's lore wouldn't be worth it if you're moving away from dedicated healing, like me, due to healing depression and I like HV but it's probably underpowered in PVP
Im not looking forward to this much swapping around, 3 full sets .. some of you probably will have 4 or more.. ouch.. Im sure they will introduce yet another set going forward. Im going to run out of space fast this way..
Exchanged a GG set I bought with coins and on AH before patch and got the Grim Faithful set, gets me to 28k HP
Currently just running with the 4 pieces for 18.5% Tenacity also have main and offhand which boosts to 20.5%.
Still have my PvE jewelry but have saved 25K glory and looking at buying Grim pieces.
Enchants normal Barkshield & Terror after bad reports on Soulforged. (Terror over Vorpal for the debuff now that am not using High Prophet)
First match PUG and we met a premade guild group which owned us. The leaver penalty meant we all stayed but in the end had our spawn point camped and wasn't much fun waiting till it ended.
Next fairly even match we won pretty close 1000-800, great fights at mid. DC is still pretty tanky but when you are focused by 2-3 you go down fast.
Most fights have been close, last one lost 1000-993! Problem is losing only got 127 Glory and I was 2nd on team. Bit lousy for the effort but at least it is fun.
All up, its better than I thought. DC is still workable in PvP and the better teams all had a DC. GWF still rules but again can be taken down quicker than before when focused.
Queues are the big problem and lousy rewards for long tight matches. Everything else no so bad.
ps Have used PvP set for dailies and its fine. Will have to test if OK for high-end dungeons but expect OK
Looking for a guild for PvE Dungeons to suit AEST evenings
Really. Give it a chance, guys. This is the kind of spells making DCs shine in the new pvp.
Agree with that if i drop a Divine DG on a 1v1, our side wins.
Looking for a guild for PvE Dungeons to suit AEST evenings
in high level pvp no one leaves the dc un-cc'd long enough to "debuff"... imagine getting frozen and proned... is DG really gonna save your life
Also @vikingbrad... if you drop a DG on a 1v1 wouldn't that make it a 2v1...
I loved it before healing depression. Or loved it for the most part. DCs were hard to kill, yeah, but unlike, say, GWFs, it's not like we're gonna be doing tons and tons of killing. GFs with knock back, CWs running control who knew what they were doing, HRs, and skillful trs were quite capable of killing us.
And I don't like running dps in pvp, or at least I didn't before, because I always died before I could do anything. I like healing. I like being able to keep my teammates alive and I can't do that any more.
The only thing that I found I was ABLE to do was die. And I did that a lot. Before Healing Depression, I was really only good at not dying. I couldn't do tons of damage, couldn't usually make kills unless I had a daily and my opponent was squishy...
I'd like DCs to be immune from either righteousness or healing depression, to make it playable again.
I spent all my coins and got grim set
PVP is almost the same:
TR are real pain
CW/HR still hard to avoid
GF can kill me in 10 sec, GWF can kill me in half that time
and facing another DC is dead end
I am AC with 14k GS, 3K def and 1.5K deflect, against fresh level 60 players I am still immortal. but facing high GS players... not good
as a luskan 20 Vs 20 is still impossible
best tactic is still stay with the group hoping they realize they have to protect their DC so he can keep them alive, in this case astral shield is a must.
sun burst is still great due to the knock away
as for the third encounter... I am not sure. forgemaster flame is ok with the slow impact, and chains are great on 20 Vs 20 but none of them doing good damage. I need to try more divine glow
the set bonus and statistics on the new sets are great, make you wonder why they gives so much attention to pvp and not to foundry for example (after all it is a DND game a foundry and Dungeon Delve should be the main focus)
Also is Tenacity worth it? Our PvP build in module 2 was also very defensive. What is Tenacity adding to the lot?
Raist Torilrocker | Dwarf | DC/AC
Waterdeep Dungeon & Salvage LLC
Twitch
Against PMs and I cannot survive and have to play a more "support" role
CWs are in the same boat and GWFs will quickly die if they try to 1 vs 1 zerg newb style. So what? You mean the patch forced players into more teamplay focused roles? Then I'd say mission accomplished. Be it debuffing/glass cannon clerics or super tanks having to take care the rest of the team unless they want to be sent to the respawn with a timer, everyone has to adapt and pay attention to the team (!) and help (!) them in a positive manner instead of being a solo troll back capping on his own. It's not different from what other classes face.
Was in some very unbalanced matches.
I think for DC, tenacity gear is going to be a must to be able to do anything. Without it, i totally sucked, and i used to be decent.
I have 24k glory, wondering if i should get a 2nd artifact, or get some tenacity gear.
The difference is that other classes haven't had a core mechanic so greatly devalued by these changes. The healing-focused DC simply doesn't work in a competitive setting, and that's the biggest problem with Healing Depression as it applies to the DC class.
Regardless of how the individual chooses to play DC, team sustain is a unique feature of the class. A healing class that cannot effectively heal is a head-scratcher no matter how we all angle to compensate by changing our encounters etc. Rather than celebrating how the class is fun and viable with different specs, we as a DC community are constantly scrambling to theorycraft our way out of the latest curveball the dev team has thrown us. This time it happens to be Healing Depression, which I would argue is actually a good idea for the current state of PvP, but goes too far by gimping the sustain of the class that's actually supposed to be good at it.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
All of those changes net effect? I hit for alot less.. I mean next to nothing really, there is almost no way I can bring anyone down.
All I can do at this point I guess is further gear into the grim jewlery get my hp/defense as high as I can get it and help to hold nodes. I still find Ashield valuable, as it does help mitagate incoming damage alot, but Im scratching my head as to what else I can do , I know people complain about killing dcs.. whoopie do, you could just ignore us and move along to kill something else. Why Im the primary focus still is beyond me, good teams should just kill everything else first.
So in the end these pvp changes basically left the DC the same, except for damaging our role as healer on the team. We seem to be just as survivable and my kills/Deaths and assists all seem to be around the same.
DCs still need some dev design help imo.
I'm not sure what you're stats are looking like exactly in PVP atm but I'm decently tanky as a DO still and neither are my feats nor character stat distributions set up for PVP (mostly faithful build and only 14 Con/10 Dex)
Anyways I feel quite survivable using a BtS/Chains/FF set up. You're right that I don't do a ton of damage but it's hardly neglidgeable. It's all about dotting people up and killing them slowly while I mitigate more a lot of their damage and generally frustrate them. 1 v 1 isn't what I'd go for with a DC but I have tested it out when I could in the PVP matches, it's pretty fun although against more geared people it tends to take way to long still. I'd say a CW with the proper set up is still what kills me the fastest, just too much CC to handle. Geared GWF's still seem super tanky, takes a long time to drop them even with multiple allies sometimes. Surprisingly I'm feeling like HR's are the second tankiest class for me to try and kill now, lots of CC and dodging.
Really teams shouldn't ignore the DC and leave him for last, that's a sucker move. I always tell me team to focus the DC and bust him down if they can. Fact is that sure maybe my dmg is not amazing, and there's very little burst but if you just ignore me I start immobilizing people with chains, mitigation damage for my allies, providing healing, etc. Normally it's enough of a diference for my team to roll the other team in an even fight, obviously if they have significantly more gear they'll still win. Since we get Righteousness and Healing Depression stacked now we can't heal ourself so you can actually focus us and kill us. Usually if I'm being focused by 3 or more enemies I drop pretty fast unless my teamates can start disabling/knocking back several of them. But then even so I can't hardly heal myself so it's then hoping we can finish the battle before one or two of them can finish me off or I have to make a run for it and try to go grab a potion.
I PVP alot with all the classes and I enjoy all of them except my pre 60 HR I am getting tired of and NOW my L 60 DC.
In 3 matches last night, I couldn't heal, I couldn't dmg and I couldn't live. Maybe it was me, maybe it was my team, maybe it was just DC after the update...idk. After 3 matches my KD was something like 2/35 and I was near the bottom of the list because I couldn't even live to cap points. I am very displeased and have zero desire to PVP with a DC anymore.
- JailBreak (in development)
Raist Torilrocker | Dwarf | DC/AC
Waterdeep Dungeon & Salvage LLC
Twitch
People die a lot when the cleric is mostly focusing on buffing his team (and himself to some extent). I sincerely hope some of you will understand that asking for better heals isn't required when you can just make the red team play the match on respawn timer. If we can do that and press a magic button with a 2s cooldown to put the whole team at max health, this is going to be a bit broken.
Tenacity gives you straight up DR, no to mention control resist and critical strike resistance. It outperforms defense or deflect for damage mitigation purposes. Those are of course good to have to up to soft cap values for more survivability. But basically it's like they took AS turned it into a passive for everybody and added control and critical resistance too it. Seems pretty **** useful to me.
It appears to me that Tenacity starts to cap a bit around 900ish so all you really need is one of the 4 piece sets, neck and belt you can keep your wep, off hand, and rings and bam! 20% reductions across the board
I'm assuming that's a pug match though...
I never said I wasn't fine in pugs, however, in a full 5 v 5 pm vs the top guild I am pretty useless. All I ask is that we have enough healing to 1 v 1 properly which means healing more than the damage taken when are healing spells are up but when on cd they have a chance to burst us. There needs to be balance
And your point is?
No point discussing how different pugs and premades are, they are 2 stories.
Ah Ok. Yes without a doubt pug vs premade is drastically diferent. Which is something I've been trying to make a point for a while. So that less knowledgeable people realize there's a diference. Cleric is perfectly good for pug and I just don't feel there's any need to scare off/ discourage poeople from trying and maybe enjoying it. The vast majority of players are probably never going to farm full rank 9 - 10 enchants and perfect wep/armor enchants for top tier PVP premades.
Sure 5 GWF's would probably roll a rainbow group but 5 HR's might be able to beat them. Besides, there's really no finality to PVP, currently. We don't even have a ranking system or any sort of reward you can't earn from just grinding PVP matches. Therefore premade groups (the serious ones), not the ones who are just a couple friends who are like lets group and steamroll a couple pvp matches for fun or what not, but the serious top level groups they intentionally set up two groups that are going to be competitive against eachother. Nobody really cares that 5 GWF's could steamroll because there's no point to that, you get nothing from doing it and most likely nobody is going to want to play against that seriously.
Most of the people who come on here and completely flame the Cleric class and say it's trash and it's usless blah blah blah don't understand what the class is suposed to be. And if you really don't like it well then just re-roll. I mean once you hit 60 it's pretty easy to tell if you're going to enjoy the class or not and it doesn't take long to level up another character. I just don't understand why people are trying to discourage new players from trying a cleric. Obviously it's not what a lot of people want to play but maybe it suits somebody else play style. That's why it's important to be objective with class analysis and their capabilities, not just flame them because it's not what you were looking for.
Anyways looking forward to seeing more on how the PVP heal bot works
For those of us who enjoy playing a healer/support in other games and then see the state of the Cleric here it's pretty obvious why there are negative comments about the way the class is continually downgraded by the developers.
According to your school of thought people should just ignore whatever happens to the class, no matter how many times it gets gimped. Soldiering on like some never say die hero continually walking toward the machine gunners.
In fact, your attitude damages the possibility of improving the class with this see no evil approach. Every time the class takes another hit, I can hear this Monty Python like shout of "it's ok it's only a flesh wound".
What is needed is a cessation of this - we'll let you do what you want with the class, no matter how bad it gets - and start a concentrated effort to get this class sorted out. That will only happen if the class becomes really short in supply, although for pvp players they already couldn't care less if a Cleric is in the group or not - such is the poor state of the class in this arena.
Or we could just follow the above post and all singalong - "always look on the bright side of life......"
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
18 kills is impressive for a DC. Were you outgearing your opposition? There GWF finished bottom of the table. You 18-2 vs GWF 2-20?
Anyway seems best configuration is for the whole team to move as 1 and single focus each opponent 1 after the other.
A team that does this will beat the other team and class composition doesn't matter too much.
Looking for a guild for PvE Dungeons to suit AEST evenings
Depends on your spec and gear and who you run with. I still get the same amount of hate and crying in chat without it since the changes. If I start getting owned, will look into it. But depending on how you play and spec its not mandatory as it seemed to be on test. Having tenacity will not turn most into a tank over night.
Raist Torilrocker | Dwarf | DC/AC
Waterdeep Dungeon & Salvage LLC
Twitch