18 kills is impressive for a DC. Were you outgearing your opposition? There GWF finished bottom of the table. You 18-2 vs GWF 2-20?
Anyway seems best configuration is for the whole team to move as 1 and single focus each opponent 1 after the other.
A team that does this will beat the other team and class composition doesn't matter too much.
My party was 12k. I didn't check the red team, but I guess it shouldn't be that different with matchmaking. When I'm equipping my HP/GPF gear, i'm a bit above 14k. Used hallowed ground, divine glow, AS and prophecy of doom, so when you time your attacks right you can get quite a lot of killing blows, especially with glass cannon opponents. The divine mode at-will helped a lot not being KS too.
There was some back capping but only their TR was doing that, and TRs aren't hard to deal with. It was mostly arena style on various flags though, except home. Since everyone was basically doing more than 2x their normal damage, it was an easy win. My team also had some pvp discipline, which is rare.
Anyways looking forward to seeing more on how the PVP heal bot works
Healbot means gs is irrelevant and what u do is survive and heal. I stripped all my R5-R7 enchants and my weapon enchantments too to avoid the matchmaking putting me into 15k above game (i got it twice with legendary ppl running here and there being immortal). One of these is this one, pure healing encounter and i kill with burning guidance in this game, not sacred flame lol...
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I stripped all my R5-R7 enchants and my weapon enchantments too to avoid the matchmaking putting me into 15k above game (i got it twice with legendary ppl running here and there being immortal).
My party was 12k. I didn't check the red team, but I guess it shouldn't be that different with matchmaking. When I'm equipping my HP/GPF gear, i'm a bit above 14k. Used hallowed ground, divine glow, AS and prophecy of doom, so when you time your attacks right you can get quite a lot of killing blows, especially with glass cannon opponents. The divine mode at-will helped a lot not being KS too.
There was some back capping but only their TR was doing that, and TRs aren't hard to deal with. It was mostly arena style on various flags though, except home. Since everyone was basically doing more than 2x their normal damage, it was an easy win. My team also had some pvp discipline, which is rare.
If you run into any of the pvp builds no one is glass cannon. But since you build with HP you are and will most likely get burst...:(
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
If you run into any of the pvp builds no one is glass cannon. But since you build with HP you are and will most likely get burst...:(
Its based on elo system , you can go wiki it, seems interesting enough, however I have no idea how cryptic used it for thier own variations.
Mostly matches are getting around 12-15 score gear people now, which is a improvement, but I do see a 6-7k gear score person every once in awhile, of course our side gets rolled every time when that happens. Its like having 4 vs 5.
It shouldnt be exclusively gear score, but it should gate through gear score ranges at least to help balance it. no one wants people rocking greens rolling into their match.
If you run into any of the pvp builds no one is glass cannon. But since you build with HP you are and will most likely get burst...:(
Probably but this wasn't my long-term build, it was only a test to see how much I could go into the buffing area and break pvp as a cleric. I succeeded and I would simply say mission accomplished. I'm using the pvp set with power/crit, don't remember the name but so far it works fine. I have no interest in fighting 5 GWFs vs rainbow party if that's your definition of "high level pvp", so I don't care much, all I'm saying is that the cleric is fine for the average group and the average guy like me, and that if you give clerics more (heals, buffs, or whatever), that's not going to end well.
There are definitely some spells that could use a balance pass, but significantly increasing heals isn't a good idea. If you build the pvp balance around 5 GWFs permastunning you, do you really think the average guy pvp isn't going to be effected in the worst possible way, making matches last even longer?
Previously I read on the forums that there was only one "right" way to play pvp as a cleric, and it was 2k regen and 20% deflect. Now there's only one way but it's a buffer, which means you're forced into teamplay, not staying alone, etc. A change doesn't mean something is "broken", except the old way to play a class. There was absolutely no build variety before the patch, and there's not a lot of room after it, but at least, pvp is currently a lot better than it used to be, and since clerics still get focused a lot, I would simply say that everything is fine, because you don't focus what isn't a threat.
There are definitely some spells that could use a balance pass, but significantly increasing heals isn't a good idea. If you build the pvp balance around 5 GWFs permastunning you, do you really think the average guy pvp isn't going to be effected in the worst possible way, making matches last even longer?
The average guy is the one who is saying that his DC is unplayable now, because he depended on group and self sustain to help compensate for his lack of top-shelf equipment and helpful team members. The Healing Depression nonsense with our skills hits him hardest of all, because he struggled BEFORE the patch. Now he finds it just hopeless.
There was absolutely no build variety before the patch, and there's not a lot of room after it, but at least, pvp is currently a lot better than it used to be, and since clerics still get focused a lot, I would simply say that everything is fine, because you don't focus what isn't a threat.
So even less build variety is somehow an acceptable result? I'm not sure I follow that part or how it factors into PvP being "better than it used to be." Overall I wouldn't disagree with PvP being better since regen builds aren't as insane and matchmaking should help things with time, but DCs were never to blame for ruining PvP in the first place.
If you don't mind that you couldn't effectively heal even if you wanted to, then I don't think anyone can convince that you DCs aren't fine. You're also falsely assuming that everyone still focuses the DC. In most situations, a smart player will compare the DC to the rest of the team, mentally check off the box that indicates "Highly annoying and tough, but with limited sustain and comparatively low damage potential", and prioritize targets accordingly.
For those of us who enjoy playing a healer/support in other games and then see the state of the Cleric here it's pretty obvious why there are negative comments about the way the class is continually downgraded by the developers.
According to your school of thought people should just ignore whatever happens to the class, no matter how many times it gets gimped. Soldiering on like some never say die hero continually walking toward the machine gunners.
In fact, your attitude damages the possibility of improving the class with this see no evil approach. Every time the class takes another hit, I can hear this Monty Python like shout of "it's ok it's only a flesh wound".
What is needed is a cessation of this - we'll let you do what you want with the class, no matter how bad it gets - and start a concentrated effort to get this class sorted out. That will only happen if the class becomes really short in supply, although for pvp players they already couldn't care less if a Cleric is in the group or not - such is the poor state of the class in this arena.
Or we could just follow the above post and all singalong - "always look on the bright side of life......"
I hardly advocate an "all is awesome, whatever happens with the class is fine" attitude. I'm always discussing pro's and con's of builds, feats, strategy, etc. I'm just more of the school of thought of providing objective constructive critiscism and going from there. I've had discussions on here regarding just about everything. And as I've mentioned many times there is a lot of stuff in this game that could be improved, not just cleric specific.
with that said several things should be taken into account though:
1-The game is free so I don't expect as much as a game that I would have payed 60 bucks for, or one that requires me to pay a monthly subscription.
2-This game is not a mmorpg. It may have many of the same elements especially with the character system, open world questing, dungeons, the way loot works, pvp...But the combat is completely ARPG. I personally have never played an ARPG game that didn't have class balance issues. Also ARPG games are set up to make classes semi autonomous is not completely autonomous from eachother. No need for heal bots. The fact that each class is suposed to be stand alone is usually what leads to balance issues between classes
3-Cryptic/PWI have intentionally kept this game very DND oriented and not just a game that was set in the DND world. Clerics aren't priests. In DND clerics are neither great damage dealers nor great healers. They're a leadership support class, I'm pretty sure it even says you're a leadership class in the character creation window, but that was a long time ago. We may not be great healer's as you say but we sure are a good support class. DR/Buff/Debuff we've got tons of that.
4-I've felt since very early on playing this game that the cleric class was set up in a way as to discourage being a heal bot. The reason for this is how our DP mechanic was set up. Use DP to increase the potency of our encounters but you need to deal damage to generate DP. Most of our more powerful healing encounters don't do any damage and therefore become DP sinks making life more dificult. Of course you can slot DF which I have used extensively, to great effect, but it always felt like a crutch, making the build work, but taking the slot from another more powerful ability. I don't miss being able to slot less healing oriented spells for the PVE side of things and being able to drop DF, life's just so much better like that.
I feel your pain, wanting to be a dedicated healer, and not really being able to. But I think some of it in part stems from not understanding what this class actually is. It's not like you can't heal in pvp anymore, it's just if that's all you do then you're probably not as effective. Some of the things I see people asking for are somewhat rediculous too. No righteousness in pvp means I would be pretty much immortal unless I was perma cc'd until I died. Or people wanting to out heal damage...then we're just back to endless pvp fights that have no point to them and are extremly boring. Healing in pvp isn't so much about making your guys immortal, it's about making them survive long enough that you kill the other guys.
Depends on your spec and gear and who you run with. I still get the same amount of hate and crying in chat without it since the changes. If I start getting owned, will look into it. But depending on how you play and spec its not mandatory as it seemed to be on test. Having tenacity will not turn most into a tank over night.
It may not be like absolutely mandatory, but it's sure nice. Besides all you really need is the 4 piece set and the neck and belt, both of which are much better than any previously available pvp type neck or belts. I've found the set very nice simply for the increased DP generation, I never have DP issues in pvp now. I'm just saying if you've stacked any sort of defensive stat for pvp to increase your survivability, then not picking up tenacity is just silly because it vastly outperforms your defensive stast on a point per point basis.
Healbot means gs is irrelevant and what u do is survive and heal. I stripped all my R5-R7 enchants and my weapon enchantments too to avoid the matchmaking putting me into 15k above game (i got it twice with legendary ppl running here and there being immortal). One of these is this one, pure healing encounter and i kill with burning guidance in this game, not sacred flame lol...
Indeed. I always just ran with mostly blue gear before this patch and only defensive sockets active. Even with the new pvp gear I haven't socketed any of the offensive slots yet and I still break my wep set even, same as I did pre patch, although I haven't decided if I prefer the grim offhand or the redcap one I used to use. I also need to test with my set offhand now to see if the offensive buff is worth it or not. You actually kill people with burning guidance? that's probably pretty impressive since it hits for next to nothing. I put out pretty decent damage with SF and omg does it give a lot of DP
I hardly advocate an "all is awesome, whatever happens with the class is fine" attitude. I'm always discussing pro's and con's of builds, feats, strategy, etc. I'm just more of the school of thought of providing objective constructive critiscism and going from there. I've had discussions on here regarding just about everything. And as I've mentioned many times there is a lot of stuff in this game that could be improved, not just cleric specific.
with that said several things should be taken into account though:
1-The game is free so I don't expect as much as a game that I would have payed 60 bucks for, or one that requires me to pay a monthly subscription.
2-This game is not a mmorpg. It may have many of the same elements especially with the character system, open world questing, dungeons, the way loot works, pvp...But the combat is completely ARPG. I personally have never played an ARPG game that didn't have class balance issues. Also ARPG games are set up to make classes semi autonomous is not completely autonomous from eachother. No need for heal bots. The fact that each class is suposed to be stand alone is usually what leads to balance issues between classes
3-Cryptic/PWI have intentionally kept this game very DND oriented and not just a game that was set in the DND world. Clerics aren't priests. In DND clerics are neither great damage dealers nor great healers. They're a leadership support class, I'm pretty sure it even says you're a leadership class in the character creation window, but that was a long time ago. We may not be great healer's as you say but we sure are a good support class. DR/Buff/Debuff we've got tons of that.
4-I've felt since very early on playing this game that the cleric class was set up in a way as to discourage being a heal bot. The reason for this is how our DP mechanic was set up. Use DP to increase the potency of our encounters but you need to deal damage to generate DP. Most of our more powerful healing encounters don't do any damage and therefore become DP sinks making life more dificult. Of course you can slot DF which I have used extensively, to great effect, but it always felt like a crutch, making the build work, but taking the slot from another more powerful ability. I don't miss being able to slot less healing oriented spells for the PVE side of things and being able to drop DF, life's just so much better like that.
I feel your pain, wanting to be a dedicated healer, and not really being able to. But I think some of it in part stems from not understanding what this class actually is. It's not like you can't heal in pvp anymore, it's just if that's all you do then you're probably not as effective. Some of the things I see people asking for are somewhat rediculous too. No righteousness in pvp means I would be pretty much immortal unless I was perma cc'd until I died. Or people wanting to out heal damage...then we're just back to endless pvp fights that have no point to them and are extremly boring. Healing in pvp isn't so much about making your guys immortal, it's about making them survive long enough that you kill the other guys.
Well it is an mmorpg in the same way that Tera is. Having a Mystic (main) and Priest at end game there just highlights how poor a relation the Cleric is here.
But my fight for the Cleric is about to expire and I will leave you all in peace (or in pieces for the Cleric). A certain other action based mmo is due to launch shortly, and having played a Restoration based Templar in closed and open betas that will be my game for hopefully quite a while.
So fight the good fight - or not - I'll leave you to it.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited March 2014
Well, the game Im waiting for is still a few months away, not the one your going to.. I want to return to Norrath, I just wanted to play and have fun in this game for a bit.
Even if a game is f2p, it still usually costs something (even if you upgrade a bag in this game) Overall this is a pretty light content (not necessarily the # of dungeons or anything) but other mmos have way more free content in terms of costume and in game design, little things that made the game fun *ya know* not all about running around killing things. Overall I miss the other game I played for 3 years, but they had some massive issues on last release I just couldn't live through.. every game has its time and then its time to move on.
I cant belive anyone is satisfied with the the DC class post last patch, but hey maybe some of you are.. I dont find it fun to be the bottom of the totem pole, pvp is hard to balance, arena matching most of all. It would help if they go open world with forts you could hold for match points, glory comes with each hour win and each kill you get, healers always got like 10% of the glory, but since you healed alot of teammates, it usually = to a kill over the course of fights.
If the class is a Leader class, then its buffing functions should be higher then they are now for PVP, we simply do not have anything grand that another class would say HEY get a DC for pvp matching, we have to have that XYZ buff.
Some things would help, tweaks could be made, but if your honest with yourself, a DC isnt needed or particular wanted for PVP matching right now .
Well, the game Im waiting for is still a few months away, not the one your going to.. I want to return to Norrath, I just wanted to play and have fun in this game for a bit.
Even if a game is f2p, it still usually costs something (even if you upgrade a bag in this game) Overall this is a pretty light content (not necessarily the # of dungeons or anything) but other mmos have way more free content in terms of costume and in game design, little things that made the game fun *ya know* not all about running around killing things. Overall I miss the other game I played for 3 years, but they had some massive issues on last release I just couldn't live through.. every game has its time and then its time to move on.
I cant belive anyone is satisfied with the the DC class post last patch, but hey maybe some of you are.. I dont find it fun to be the bottom of the totem pole, pvp is hard to balance, arena matching most of all. It would help if they go open world with forts you could hold for match points, glory comes with each hour win and each kill you get, healers always got like 10% of the glory, but since you healed alot of teammates, it usually = to a kill over the course of fights.
If the class is a Leader class, then its buffing functions should be higher then they are now for PVP, we simply do not have anything grand that another class would say HEY get a DC for pvp matching, we have to have that XYZ buff.
Some things would help, tweaks could be made, but if your honest with yourself, a DC isnt needed or particular wanted for PVP matching right now .
So you think that increasing your team members stats by ~25% (provided you don't play with vastly overgeared players), reducing incoming damage by almost 50%, and more than doubling your team members' damage isn't enough for one class?
Sure if you try to spec like a healbot, only care about spike heals or the green numbers you see on your screen you won't achieve anything. But if you read most of the spells tooltips, few of them are about healing, which should make you think a bit about the cleric's role in pvp. It's definitely not being immortal 'no righteousness' mode, it's not getting everyone back from 0 to full HP every 10s even if they stand still taking damage and not caring about the environment or about other players, and it's definitely not staying at max range tossing healing word hoping it will do something...
It's mostly being right near melee characters, providing strong damage increases and mitigation support, with some heals when something goes wrong, but no, you can't make your team immortal. It's more about chosing carefully who is going to be sent to the respawn and buffing accordingly. If you're always on respawn timer it either means the team has no clue on using a cleric, or if you're always on respawn in every match, well, it may be you not helping your team to send the reds to respawn quick enough.
So you think that increasing your team members stats by ~25% (provided you don't play with vastly overgeared players), reducing incoming damage by almost 50%, and more than doubling your team members' damage isn't enough for one class?
Sure if you try to spec like a healbot, only care about spike heals or the green numbers you see on your screen you won't achieve anything. But if you read most of the spells tooltips, few of them are about healing, which should make you think a bit about the cleric's role in pvp. It's definitely not being immortal 'no righteousness' mode, it's not getting everyone back from 0 to full HP every 10s even if they stand still taking damage and not caring about the environment or about other players, and it's definitely not staying at max range tossing healing word hoping it will do something...
It's mostly being right near melee characters, providing strong damage increases and mitigation support, with some heals when something goes wrong, but no, you can't make your team immortal. It's more about chosing carefully who is going to be sent to the respawn and buffing accordingly. If you're always on respawn timer it either means the team has no clue on using a cleric, or if you're always on respawn in every match, well, it may be you not helping your team to send the reds to respawn quick enough.
I struggle to understand your perspective on DCs. Strangely, it's almost as if you WANT cleric healing to be a joke so that the only viable way to play is to focus exclusively on your buff/debuff game.
No one (at least no one experienced) debates the usefulness of DC buffs and debuffs, but that doesn't change the fact that significant team sustain was the one unique mechanic that this class brought to the table, and it's a mechanic that attracts a lot of players to the class. While the DC does not function like a more traditional MMORPG healer, it serves in that role for NW.
The same arguments have been stated and restated in a number of ways, so I'm not going to recap all of them yet again. I just don't understand why almost every statement you make about the state of the DC class includes snide comments about "healbot" this and "immortal DC" that or telling people how DCs should be played as if the rest of us were just doing it wrong. This blatant refusal to acknowledge that anything is out of whack with the class just baffles me.
I struggle to understand your perspective on DCs. Strangely, it's almost as if you WANT cleric healing to be a joke so that the only viable way to play is to focus exclusively on your buff/debuff game.
No one (at least no one experienced) debates the usefulness of DC buffs and debuffs, but that doesn't change the fact that significant team sustain was the one unique mechanic that this class brought to the table, and it's a mechanic that attracts a lot of players to the class. While the DC does not function like a more traditional MMORPG healer, it serves in that role for NW.
The same arguments have been stated and restated in a number of ways, so I'm not going to recap all of them yet again. I just don't understand why almost every statement you make about the state of the DC class includes snide comments about "healbot" this and "immortal DC" that or telling people how DCs should be played as if the rest of us were just doing it wrong. This blatant refusal to acknowledge that anything is out of whack with the class just baffles me.
It's just because I know how powerful the class is already. And I don't think it's an illusion. It gives me the impression of gwfs or cws asking for buffs... Even if the cleric class is admittedly really harder to play, since it's just not me smash buttons me kill, it doesn't mean it's not competitive at all, in pve or pvp environments. Currently this game is still a bit skill based (if you suck you die), and that's what I'd like to preserve. If heals get a buff this game is just going to become something like standing in red (or in front of players) randomly smashing buttons until stuff dies, and there are plenty of games offering that kind of gameplay already.
I don't know. It may be the class not attracting different players, or something else I don't get.
Since we can't post any pvp videos on the forums due to the ToS, unfortunately, I can't post one of my 1h pvp sessions with me keeping team mates with a brain alive. If that's really what you want to do, I'm ready to prove in game we can effectively keep others alive effectively, while not being sent to the respawn more often than any other squishy class. I must insist on the brain though, because people I let people getting out of my range lying on the ground like dog ****. Can't heal stupidity, that's not a part of the game.
It's just because I know how powerful the class is already. And I don't think it's an illusion. It gives me the impression of gwfs or cws asking for buffs... Even if the cleric class is admittedly really harder to play, since it's just not me smash buttons me kill, it doesn't mean it's not competitive at all, in pve or pvp environments. Currently this game is still a bit skill based (if you suck you die), and that's what I'd like to preserve. If heals get a buff this game is just going to become something like standing in red (or in front of players) randomly smashing buttons until stuff dies, and there are plenty of games offering that kind of gameplay already.
I don't know. It may be the class not attracting different players, or something else I don't get.
Since we can't post any pvp videos on the forums due to the ToS, unfortunately, I can't post one of my 1h pvp sessions with me keeping team mates with a brain alive. If that's really what you want to do, I'm ready to prove in game we can effectively keep others alive effectively, while not being sent to the respawn more often than any other squishy class. I must insist on the brain though, because people I let people getting out of my range lying on the ground like dog ****. Can't heal stupidity, that's not a part of the game.
A PvP video isn't going to show us anything that we don't already know about the class. No one is trying to say that you can't help your team or that the class is not useful to some degree. All of this should be a given.
The point is simply that DC sustain is nerfed to a ridiculous degree that makes most sustain-oriented powers undesirable for use in competitive PvP and produces laughable results when applied directly the cleric. This gives the class fewer options and reduces its overall utility without good reason.
The point is simply that DC sustain is nerfed to a ridiculous degree that makes most sustain-oriented powers undesirable for use in competitive PvP and produces laughable results when applied directly the cleric. This gives the class fewer options and reduces its overall utility without good reason.
Are buffs and debuffs not sustains also? Doesn't a non divine AS provide sustain just through it's 20% DR. A divine FF which happens to be just about our most bursty heal and it's aoe, and it also does dmg and has a nice snare effect. BtS 30% DR. DG no explanation needed. Even sb with it's aoe heal, procs and knockback. It seems like you can sustain your party and give them enough of a buff to be stronger than the opposing team. It may not be complete domination people are going to die, it's pvp after all, but if your team is holding points longer shouldn't that help win? It just seems that dedicated healing spells aren't the way to go. Divine at wills also become more useable
I think some of us here are just trying to help out and shed some light on the new meta based on our experiences. Especially when we see other people having a hard time. I mean what are people exact problem? Can't keep group up? cant stay alive themselves? I mean there's only so much you can do too, it depends on the group the gear and player skill including understanding of how to go about winning pvp matches not just fighting the other team non stop necesarily
Are buffs and debuffs not sustains also? Doesn't a non divine AS provide sustain just through it's 20% DR. A divine FF which happens to be just about our most bursty heal and it's aoe, and it also does dmg and has a nice snare effect. BtS 30% DR. DG no explanation needed. Even sb with it's aoe heal, procs and knockback. It seems like you can sustain your party and give them enough of a buff to be stronger than the opposing team. It may not be complete domination people are going to die, it's pvp after all, but if your team is holding points longer shouldn't that help win? It just seems that dedicated healing spells aren't the way to go. Divine at wills also become more useable
I think some of us here are just trying to help out and shed some light on the new meta based on our experiences. Especially when we see other people having a hard time. I mean what are people exact problem? Can't keep group up? cant stay alive themselves? I mean there's only so much you can do too, it depends on the group the gear and player skill including understanding of how to go about winning pvp matches not just fighting the other team non stop necesarily
Sustain refers to healing in this context. Mitigation is not the same as sustain.
As you mentioned, there aren't many pure healing powers, but that's not the point. The point is that the healing that's built into DC powers is nerfed to an unnecessary degree that makes the class less strategic to play, not more so. On a side note, Sunburst is not the best example; since this patch it does no appreciable damage, no appreciable healing, and can't even be relied upon as a knockback in D-mode since it has a decent chance of failing completely.
I feel like I'm slowly pounding my head against a wall here because it escapes me why players reach to find some kind of silver lining in this situation. The only players "having a hard time" in truth are those who were having a hard time with DC before the patch, except that their situation just got even worse.
The rest of us who have played in truly competitive matches against other mostly BiS players are reporting that these changes are decaying the overall usefulness of the class and even further discouraging build diversity. CW is my other main, and while that class has its own issues in high end PvP, I can promise you that going up against a strong DC gives me no pause whatsoever. Before the patch, a DC could at least buy time with well-timed dodges and encounters, but now there is literally nothing they can do to save themselves, because any significant amount of damage far exceeds their ability to heal. Just tonight I PvPed with some friends against a mostly premade group with a good DC from a well-known PvP guild, and he/she was just window dressing in the end despite obvious efforts to contribute to the fights. You know it's bad when you start aiming for the DC not because you're concerned about their damage or healing, but because they'll go down reliably and take no one with them.
TL;DR: Healing Depression as it affects DCs makes no sense. It's not a question of player skill or being able to pound 99% of PUGs into the ground, because nothing changed there. It's not some new meta to be embraced; it's just a bad idea. The resulting meta, as it were, is better described as "damage control" as DCs scramble not to be made completely obsolete. That may sound dramatic, but ask a lot of groups if they'd rather have an amazing DC or an amazing GWF, for example, and you might be surprised at the result.
Also there's the fact that healing was one of the few things we brought that could scale with gear.
Divine glow buffs/debuffs are not gear scaled. Hallowed ground buff/debuff? Not gear scaled. Astral shield mitigation? Not gear scaled. Break the spirit/PoD debuffs? Not gear scaled.
Most of the utility we bring to the table now could be accomplished naked, using starter weapons. While I think an overreliance on gear is a bad thing, total absence of gear-relevance is also kinda silly.
About the only think we have now that's of much use AND that scales is forgemasters, so expect that to be nerfed next. That and linked spirit, which seems unable to decide what it actually procs from.
Pre-patch you could by and large select your gearing according to what you expected to achieve, and how good you were: for me, that was regen blues, because I knew that in pug PvP I'd spend a lot of my time CC'd or being focussed, but this moved to MH (when I got a set) because I was needing the regen less by simply not sucking quite so badly (don't stand in front of a CW, waving a stick), which meant I could now bring better stats and thus better heals & damage.
Toward the end I was using HP because I was getting better at dodging the incoming CC and I could dedicate less time to passive self-survival and more to team synergy (sometimes the team even actually understood this, which is quite nice for a pug). It was a nice progression.
Now I can either save up for tenacity gear (hahahaha no), turn up naked for lolz, or just give up.
Also, to be honest, if you can bring either "the ability to debuff enemy armour by X amount, boost damage by Y amount and reduce incoming damage by Z amount", or "the ability to kill enemy dudes before any of that becomes beneficial", the latter is probably a better choice.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Are buffs and debuffs not sustains also? Doesn't a non divine AS provide sustain just through it's 20% DR. A divine FF which happens to be just about our most bursty heal and it's aoe, and it also does dmg and has a nice snare effect. BtS 30% DR. DG no explanation needed. Even sb with it's aoe heal, procs and knockback. It seems like you can sustain your party and give them enough of a buff to be stronger than the opposing team. It may not be complete domination people are going to die, it's pvp after all, but if your team is holding points longer shouldn't that help win? It just seems that dedicated healing spells aren't the way to go. Divine at wills also become more useable
I think some of us here are just trying to help out and shed some light on the new meta based on our experiences. Especially when we see other people having a hard time. I mean what are people exact problem? Can't keep group up? cant stay alive themselves? I mean there's only so much you can do too, it depends on the group the gear and player skill including understanding of how to go about winning pvp matches not just fighting the other team non stop necesarily
Simply put, its not that we bring nothing to the table, but what we do bring is superfluous to the content. If they do in fact release some sort of wizard next, this will decrease the value of the DC even further, as more people will have more classes off node points. The buffs work best with synergy of melee type classes. Remove those and we are even less useful to pvp matches. (as in my other post, this could be solved, by freeing the need for stationary skills, change them to free floating ones, and bam.. we are back in business on that side of the coin, which also gives DCs position choice, which a true leader class would have.
Pre Patch, I had no issues annoying 2 people (except GWFs) for quite awhile to hold a node, or I could keep my teamates up AND BUFF at the same time.
So you are happy they removed 2/3rds of our class structure? Why?
4 matches this morning, 4 wins, with LS and DG ect ect, I understand the meta, I dont like it, its not fun. I do not feel that Im overly needed, but more of a hindrance. If the team had any-other class, the results probably would've been the same.
Sustain refers to healing in this context. Mitigation is not the same as sustain.
How can they not be direclty realted? Is not 20% DR in area equivalent to a huge amount of of healing? If you were going 1 v 1 and you cast BtS on somebody how much healing do you think you would need to be equivalent to that 30% DR on your target?
People are going to die, you can not keep people alive indefinetly. It's pvp, people are meant to die and if you can't kill people it becomes pointless.
How can they not be direclty realted? Is not 20% DR in area equivalent to a huge amount of of healing? If you were going 1 v 1 and you cast BtS on somebody how much healing do you think you would need to be equivalent to that 30% DR on your target?
People are going to die, you can not keep people alive indefinetly. It's pvp, people are meant to die and if you can't kill people it becomes pointless.
Well, indeed, the idea of having immortal clerics is quite shocking. In pvp everyone has to die, otherwise, the game can't be played. Even in their current state, clerics don't die faster or more than rogues, wizards or rangers. All of them are squishy classes. The cleric is even a bit more survivable since it has full control over heals and mitigation. I guess most DC players will have to get used to respawn, which isn't a dramatic state and has to happen anyway to make the game interesting.
All I see is that when I'm with my team they stay alive longer, hit (a lot) harder; people die, flags get captured, matches are smooth, few are frustrating, but i've never played the regen troll DC, so it may just be me being used to 3-4 deaths per match. I don't see why it shouldn't happen. And I don't see how allowing people to stay alive longer (depending on your skill and gear) and hit twice harder wouldn't be meaningful. With almost 7k power and a perfect vorpal in pvp, I'm close to making my team mates immortal as long as I'm not excessively focused or as long as there isn't tremendous amounts of debuffs around, so the red team better be able to kill me.
So you think that increasing your team members stats by ~25% (provided you don't play with vastly overgeared players), reducing incoming damage by almost 50%, and more than doubling your team members' damage isn't enough for one class?
just curious, but what are you proccing LS spirit with?
speaking of linked spirit, is it broken when procced with astral shield? never gives me bonus stats when used with divine astral shield and forces me to use divine sunburst to do so, but that ruins the dps of the whole team so it's a weird buff to apply now.
How can they not be direclty realted? Is not 20% DR in area equivalent to a huge amount of of healing? If you were going 1 v 1 and you cast BtS on somebody how much healing do you think you would need to be equivalent to that 30% DR on your target?
People are going to die, you can not keep people alive indefinetly. It's pvp, people are meant to die and if you can't kill people it becomes pointless.
Sustain typically refers to healing in the context of similar games. It's a semantics issue. No one questions the value of damage mitigation, but that's not what got nerfed.
I don't see where anyone is directly or even indirectly arguing for undying teams. DCs weren't able to sustain their teams indefinitely even before the patch. It's reasonable to assume that players are not taking 50% less damage across the board even with Tenacity, yet they are receiving 50% less healing; does this not suggest a problem to you?
I'm sorry, but there isn't a solid justification for the way that Healing Depression affects DC class skills or the way that it stacks with Righteousness. Healing Depression was applied as a blanket fix without regard to the DC class, which was in no way in need of that kind of fixing. Immortal clerics are a myth outside of grossly mismatched teams, in which case all classes are immortal. All I see in support of Healing Depression for DCs are a lot of straw man arguments and general exaggerations.
DCs are really trash now... I got 15.2k GS. I used to be able to survive 2 dps with heals. Now I can be killed in 5 seconds by one 12k GS GWF. Tried new pvp gear, but even with 32k hp, without decent heals or dps, anyone can shut me down 1v1. pvp is just a joke for DCs after the patch.
DCs are really trash now... I got 15.2k GS. I used to be able to survive 2 dps with heals. Now I can be killed in 5 seconds by one 12k GS GWF. Tried new pvp gear, but even with 32k hp, without decent heals or dps, anyone can shut me down 1v1. pvp is just a joke for DCs after the patch.
Yep, they have basically completely killed off the class I enjoyed to play the most. I can no longer effectively support my team, I can no longer hold points solo against virtually anyone, and almost every class is a better choice to bring along now. I have less dps than every single class in the game.
Congratulations on completely breaking my favorite class. I have 1k tenacity, 29k hps, have tried multiple gear combos out. It's all horrible. DC's are just free points and easy pickings now.
Yep, they have basically completely killed off the class I enjoyed to play the most. I can no longer effectively support my team, I can no longer hold points solo against virtually anyone, and almost every class is a better choice to bring along now. I have less dps than every single class in the game.
Congratulations on completely breaking my favorite class. I have 1k tenacity, 29k hps, have tried multiple gear combos out. It's all horrible. DC's are just free points and easy pickings now.
Might be time to pack up and try another game.
I'm no fan of the way Healing Depression works with the DC class, and I think it's unhealthy for the class and for the game for a number of reasons, but there are ways to remain somewhat relevant until the devs get around to implementing that fix for DCs in PvP that they mentioned (hopefully).
Forgemaster's Flame is about the only decent healing power we have left in that it not only has the potential to heal multiple team mates at once, but bypasses Righteousness so that you are "only" receiving the same 50% reduction that everyone else is getting rather than the cumulative 80% reduction that applies to other forms of DC self-healing. Obviously the issue with this strategy is that the target needs to remain in close quarters, and smart players will try to create distance from you if they realize that you've turned them into your personal heal battery.
Exaltation is a life saver even more so than before. Being able to block burst damage is invaluable since you can't expect to heal up efficiently. Also an excellent overall buff even without the immunity in Divine mode.
I fully agree that DCs are less desirable in competitive play since the patch since they neither kill nor heal particularly well (buffs and debuffs are useful, but they alone don't make the entire class, IMO). However, you can still faceroll in most PUG PvP and can make a respectable showing against other strong players even when it feels like an uphill battle. The part that's really unfortunate right now is that it takes a great deal more skill and deliberate character building to make DCs viable compared to every other class. If you go up against very good players and don't play your butt off, you can lose badly.
On the bright side, players will often underestimate DCs. A CW who successfully 1v1ed my team's 16k CW twice wanted to 1v1 my DC. He just sat there and spammed abilities at me, not bothering to dodge any of my attacks, obviously expecting the fight to be over in seconds. I ended up proccing his SF and then killing him while remaining above half health, using nothing but At-Wills and Forgemaster's because he never tried to dodge or move far enough away from me so that the FF heals would stop.
TL;DR: HD with DCs sucks and needs some level of fixing, but there are ways to work around it to an extent while we wait for tweaks.
Comments
My party was 12k. I didn't check the red team, but I guess it shouldn't be that different with matchmaking. When I'm equipping my HP/GPF gear, i'm a bit above 14k. Used hallowed ground, divine glow, AS and prophecy of doom, so when you time your attacks right you can get quite a lot of killing blows, especially with glass cannon opponents. The divine mode at-will helped a lot not being KS too.
There was some back capping but only their TR was doing that, and TRs aren't hard to deal with. It was mostly arena style on various flags though, except home. Since everyone was basically doing more than 2x their normal damage, it was an easy win. My team also had some pvp discipline, which is rare.
Healbot means gs is irrelevant and what u do is survive and heal. I stripped all my R5-R7 enchants and my weapon enchantments too to avoid the matchmaking putting me into 15k above game (i got it twice with legendary ppl running here and there being immortal). One of these is this one, pure healing encounter and i kill with burning guidance in this game, not sacred flame lol...
Matchmaking is not GS based...
^truth
i even notice 6k gs people grouped with my 13k character when i am wondering why my team isn't doing much
If you run into any of the pvp builds no one is glass cannon. But since you build with HP you are and will most likely get burst...:(
Its based on elo system , you can go wiki it, seems interesting enough, however I have no idea how cryptic used it for thier own variations.
Mostly matches are getting around 12-15 score gear people now, which is a improvement, but I do see a 6-7k gear score person every once in awhile, of course our side gets rolled every time when that happens. Its like having 4 vs 5.
It shouldnt be exclusively gear score, but it should gate through gear score ranges at least to help balance it. no one wants people rocking greens rolling into their match.
Probably but this wasn't my long-term build, it was only a test to see how much I could go into the buffing area and break pvp as a cleric. I succeeded and I would simply say mission accomplished. I'm using the pvp set with power/crit, don't remember the name but so far it works fine. I have no interest in fighting 5 GWFs vs rainbow party if that's your definition of "high level pvp", so I don't care much, all I'm saying is that the cleric is fine for the average group and the average guy like me, and that if you give clerics more (heals, buffs, or whatever), that's not going to end well.
There are definitely some spells that could use a balance pass, but significantly increasing heals isn't a good idea. If you build the pvp balance around 5 GWFs permastunning you, do you really think the average guy pvp isn't going to be effected in the worst possible way, making matches last even longer?
Previously I read on the forums that there was only one "right" way to play pvp as a cleric, and it was 2k regen and 20% deflect. Now there's only one way but it's a buffer, which means you're forced into teamplay, not staying alone, etc. A change doesn't mean something is "broken", except the old way to play a class. There was absolutely no build variety before the patch, and there's not a lot of room after it, but at least, pvp is currently a lot better than it used to be, and since clerics still get focused a lot, I would simply say that everything is fine, because you don't focus what isn't a threat.
The average guy is the one who is saying that his DC is unplayable now, because he depended on group and self sustain to help compensate for his lack of top-shelf equipment and helpful team members. The Healing Depression nonsense with our skills hits him hardest of all, because he struggled BEFORE the patch. Now he finds it just hopeless.
So even less build variety is somehow an acceptable result? I'm not sure I follow that part or how it factors into PvP being "better than it used to be." Overall I wouldn't disagree with PvP being better since regen builds aren't as insane and matchmaking should help things with time, but DCs were never to blame for ruining PvP in the first place.
If you don't mind that you couldn't effectively heal even if you wanted to, then I don't think anyone can convince that you DCs aren't fine. You're also falsely assuming that everyone still focuses the DC. In most situations, a smart player will compare the DC to the rest of the team, mentally check off the box that indicates "Highly annoying and tough, but with limited sustain and comparatively low damage potential", and prioritize targets accordingly.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I hardly advocate an "all is awesome, whatever happens with the class is fine" attitude. I'm always discussing pro's and con's of builds, feats, strategy, etc. I'm just more of the school of thought of providing objective constructive critiscism and going from there. I've had discussions on here regarding just about everything. And as I've mentioned many times there is a lot of stuff in this game that could be improved, not just cleric specific.
with that said several things should be taken into account though:
1-The game is free so I don't expect as much as a game that I would have payed 60 bucks for, or one that requires me to pay a monthly subscription.
2-This game is not a mmorpg. It may have many of the same elements especially with the character system, open world questing, dungeons, the way loot works, pvp...But the combat is completely ARPG. I personally have never played an ARPG game that didn't have class balance issues. Also ARPG games are set up to make classes semi autonomous is not completely autonomous from eachother. No need for heal bots. The fact that each class is suposed to be stand alone is usually what leads to balance issues between classes
3-Cryptic/PWI have intentionally kept this game very DND oriented and not just a game that was set in the DND world. Clerics aren't priests. In DND clerics are neither great damage dealers nor great healers. They're a leadership support class, I'm pretty sure it even says you're a leadership class in the character creation window, but that was a long time ago. We may not be great healer's as you say but we sure are a good support class. DR/Buff/Debuff we've got tons of that.
4-I've felt since very early on playing this game that the cleric class was set up in a way as to discourage being a heal bot. The reason for this is how our DP mechanic was set up. Use DP to increase the potency of our encounters but you need to deal damage to generate DP. Most of our more powerful healing encounters don't do any damage and therefore become DP sinks making life more dificult. Of course you can slot DF which I have used extensively, to great effect, but it always felt like a crutch, making the build work, but taking the slot from another more powerful ability. I don't miss being able to slot less healing oriented spells for the PVE side of things and being able to drop DF, life's just so much better like that.
I feel your pain, wanting to be a dedicated healer, and not really being able to. But I think some of it in part stems from not understanding what this class actually is. It's not like you can't heal in pvp anymore, it's just if that's all you do then you're probably not as effective. Some of the things I see people asking for are somewhat rediculous too. No righteousness in pvp means I would be pretty much immortal unless I was perma cc'd until I died. Or people wanting to out heal damage...then we're just back to endless pvp fights that have no point to them and are extremly boring. Healing in pvp isn't so much about making your guys immortal, it's about making them survive long enough that you kill the other guys.
It may not be like absolutely mandatory, but it's sure nice. Besides all you really need is the 4 piece set and the neck and belt, both of which are much better than any previously available pvp type neck or belts. I've found the set very nice simply for the increased DP generation, I never have DP issues in pvp now. I'm just saying if you've stacked any sort of defensive stat for pvp to increase your survivability, then not picking up tenacity is just silly because it vastly outperforms your defensive stast on a point per point basis.
Indeed. I always just ran with mostly blue gear before this patch and only defensive sockets active. Even with the new pvp gear I haven't socketed any of the offensive slots yet and I still break my wep set even, same as I did pre patch, although I haven't decided if I prefer the grim offhand or the redcap one I used to use. I also need to test with my set offhand now to see if the offensive buff is worth it or not. You actually kill people with burning guidance? that's probably pretty impressive since it hits for next to nothing. I put out pretty decent damage with SF and omg does it give a lot of DP
Well it is an mmorpg in the same way that Tera is. Having a Mystic (main) and Priest at end game there just highlights how poor a relation the Cleric is here.
But my fight for the Cleric is about to expire and I will leave you all in peace (or in pieces for the Cleric). A certain other action based mmo is due to launch shortly, and having played a Restoration based Templar in closed and open betas that will be my game for hopefully quite a while.
So fight the good fight - or not - I'll leave you to it.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
Even if a game is f2p, it still usually costs something (even if you upgrade a bag in this game) Overall this is a pretty light content (not necessarily the # of dungeons or anything) but other mmos have way more free content in terms of costume and in game design, little things that made the game fun *ya know* not all about running around killing things. Overall I miss the other game I played for 3 years, but they had some massive issues on last release I just couldn't live through.. every game has its time and then its time to move on.
I cant belive anyone is satisfied with the the DC class post last patch, but hey maybe some of you are.. I dont find it fun to be the bottom of the totem pole, pvp is hard to balance, arena matching most of all. It would help if they go open world with forts you could hold for match points, glory comes with each hour win and each kill you get, healers always got like 10% of the glory, but since you healed alot of teammates, it usually = to a kill over the course of fights.
If the class is a Leader class, then its buffing functions should be higher then they are now for PVP, we simply do not have anything grand that another class would say HEY get a DC for pvp matching, we have to have that XYZ buff.
Some things would help, tweaks could be made, but if your honest with yourself, a DC isnt needed or particular wanted for PVP matching right now .
So you think that increasing your team members stats by ~25% (provided you don't play with vastly overgeared players), reducing incoming damage by almost 50%, and more than doubling your team members' damage isn't enough for one class?
Sure if you try to spec like a healbot, only care about spike heals or the green numbers you see on your screen you won't achieve anything. But if you read most of the spells tooltips, few of them are about healing, which should make you think a bit about the cleric's role in pvp. It's definitely not being immortal 'no righteousness' mode, it's not getting everyone back from 0 to full HP every 10s even if they stand still taking damage and not caring about the environment or about other players, and it's definitely not staying at max range tossing healing word hoping it will do something...
It's mostly being right near melee characters, providing strong damage increases and mitigation support, with some heals when something goes wrong, but no, you can't make your team immortal. It's more about chosing carefully who is going to be sent to the respawn and buffing accordingly. If you're always on respawn timer it either means the team has no clue on using a cleric, or if you're always on respawn in every match, well, it may be you not helping your team to send the reds to respawn quick enough.
I struggle to understand your perspective on DCs. Strangely, it's almost as if you WANT cleric healing to be a joke so that the only viable way to play is to focus exclusively on your buff/debuff game.
No one (at least no one experienced) debates the usefulness of DC buffs and debuffs, but that doesn't change the fact that significant team sustain was the one unique mechanic that this class brought to the table, and it's a mechanic that attracts a lot of players to the class. While the DC does not function like a more traditional MMORPG healer, it serves in that role for NW.
The same arguments have been stated and restated in a number of ways, so I'm not going to recap all of them yet again. I just don't understand why almost every statement you make about the state of the DC class includes snide comments about "healbot" this and "immortal DC" that or telling people how DCs should be played as if the rest of us were just doing it wrong. This blatant refusal to acknowledge that anything is out of whack with the class just baffles me.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
It's just because I know how powerful the class is already. And I don't think it's an illusion. It gives me the impression of gwfs or cws asking for buffs... Even if the cleric class is admittedly really harder to play, since it's just not me smash buttons me kill, it doesn't mean it's not competitive at all, in pve or pvp environments. Currently this game is still a bit skill based (if you suck you die), and that's what I'd like to preserve. If heals get a buff this game is just going to become something like standing in red (or in front of players) randomly smashing buttons until stuff dies, and there are plenty of games offering that kind of gameplay already.
I don't know. It may be the class not attracting different players, or something else I don't get.
Since we can't post any pvp videos on the forums due to the ToS, unfortunately, I can't post one of my 1h pvp sessions with me keeping team mates with a brain alive. If that's really what you want to do, I'm ready to prove in game we can effectively keep others alive effectively, while not being sent to the respawn more often than any other squishy class. I must insist on the brain though, because people I let people getting out of my range lying on the ground like dog ****. Can't heal stupidity, that's not a part of the game.
A PvP video isn't going to show us anything that we don't already know about the class. No one is trying to say that you can't help your team or that the class is not useful to some degree. All of this should be a given.
The point is simply that DC sustain is nerfed to a ridiculous degree that makes most sustain-oriented powers undesirable for use in competitive PvP and produces laughable results when applied directly the cleric. This gives the class fewer options and reduces its overall utility without good reason.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Are buffs and debuffs not sustains also? Doesn't a non divine AS provide sustain just through it's 20% DR. A divine FF which happens to be just about our most bursty heal and it's aoe, and it also does dmg and has a nice snare effect. BtS 30% DR. DG no explanation needed. Even sb with it's aoe heal, procs and knockback. It seems like you can sustain your party and give them enough of a buff to be stronger than the opposing team. It may not be complete domination people are going to die, it's pvp after all, but if your team is holding points longer shouldn't that help win? It just seems that dedicated healing spells aren't the way to go. Divine at wills also become more useable
I think some of us here are just trying to help out and shed some light on the new meta based on our experiences. Especially when we see other people having a hard time. I mean what are people exact problem? Can't keep group up? cant stay alive themselves? I mean there's only so much you can do too, it depends on the group the gear and player skill including understanding of how to go about winning pvp matches not just fighting the other team non stop necesarily
Sustain refers to healing in this context. Mitigation is not the same as sustain.
As you mentioned, there aren't many pure healing powers, but that's not the point. The point is that the healing that's built into DC powers is nerfed to an unnecessary degree that makes the class less strategic to play, not more so. On a side note, Sunburst is not the best example; since this patch it does no appreciable damage, no appreciable healing, and can't even be relied upon as a knockback in D-mode since it has a decent chance of failing completely.
I feel like I'm slowly pounding my head against a wall here because it escapes me why players reach to find some kind of silver lining in this situation. The only players "having a hard time" in truth are those who were having a hard time with DC before the patch, except that their situation just got even worse.
The rest of us who have played in truly competitive matches against other mostly BiS players are reporting that these changes are decaying the overall usefulness of the class and even further discouraging build diversity. CW is my other main, and while that class has its own issues in high end PvP, I can promise you that going up against a strong DC gives me no pause whatsoever. Before the patch, a DC could at least buy time with well-timed dodges and encounters, but now there is literally nothing they can do to save themselves, because any significant amount of damage far exceeds their ability to heal. Just tonight I PvPed with some friends against a mostly premade group with a good DC from a well-known PvP guild, and he/she was just window dressing in the end despite obvious efforts to contribute to the fights. You know it's bad when you start aiming for the DC not because you're concerned about their damage or healing, but because they'll go down reliably and take no one with them.
TL;DR: Healing Depression as it affects DCs makes no sense. It's not a question of player skill or being able to pound 99% of PUGs into the ground, because nothing changed there. It's not some new meta to be embraced; it's just a bad idea. The resulting meta, as it were, is better described as "damage control" as DCs scramble not to be made completely obsolete. That may sound dramatic, but ask a lot of groups if they'd rather have an amazing DC or an amazing GWF, for example, and you might be surprised at the result.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Divine glow buffs/debuffs are not gear scaled. Hallowed ground buff/debuff? Not gear scaled. Astral shield mitigation? Not gear scaled. Break the spirit/PoD debuffs? Not gear scaled.
Most of the utility we bring to the table now could be accomplished naked, using starter weapons. While I think an overreliance on gear is a bad thing, total absence of gear-relevance is also kinda silly.
About the only think we have now that's of much use AND that scales is forgemasters, so expect that to be nerfed next. That and linked spirit, which seems unable to decide what it actually procs from.
Pre-patch you could by and large select your gearing according to what you expected to achieve, and how good you were: for me, that was regen blues, because I knew that in pug PvP I'd spend a lot of my time CC'd or being focussed, but this moved to MH (when I got a set) because I was needing the regen less by simply not sucking quite so badly (don't stand in front of a CW, waving a stick), which meant I could now bring better stats and thus better heals & damage.
Toward the end I was using HP because I was getting better at dodging the incoming CC and I could dedicate less time to passive self-survival and more to team synergy (sometimes the team even actually understood this, which is quite nice for a pug). It was a nice progression.
Now I can either save up for tenacity gear (hahahaha no), turn up naked for lolz, or just give up.
Option C, plz!
Simply put, its not that we bring nothing to the table, but what we do bring is superfluous to the content. If they do in fact release some sort of wizard next, this will decrease the value of the DC even further, as more people will have more classes off node points. The buffs work best with synergy of melee type classes. Remove those and we are even less useful to pvp matches. (as in my other post, this could be solved, by freeing the need for stationary skills, change them to free floating ones, and bam.. we are back in business on that side of the coin, which also gives DCs position choice, which a true leader class would have.
Pre Patch, I had no issues annoying 2 people (except GWFs) for quite awhile to hold a node, or I could keep my teamates up AND BUFF at the same time.
So you are happy they removed 2/3rds of our class structure? Why?
4 matches this morning, 4 wins, with LS and DG ect ect, I understand the meta, I dont like it, its not fun. I do not feel that Im overly needed, but more of a hindrance. If the team had any-other class, the results probably would've been the same.
How can they not be direclty realted? Is not 20% DR in area equivalent to a huge amount of of healing? If you were going 1 v 1 and you cast BtS on somebody how much healing do you think you would need to be equivalent to that 30% DR on your target?
People are going to die, you can not keep people alive indefinetly. It's pvp, people are meant to die and if you can't kill people it becomes pointless.
Well, indeed, the idea of having immortal clerics is quite shocking. In pvp everyone has to die, otherwise, the game can't be played. Even in their current state, clerics don't die faster or more than rogues, wizards or rangers. All of them are squishy classes. The cleric is even a bit more survivable since it has full control over heals and mitigation. I guess most DC players will have to get used to respawn, which isn't a dramatic state and has to happen anyway to make the game interesting.
All I see is that when I'm with my team they stay alive longer, hit (a lot) harder; people die, flags get captured, matches are smooth, few are frustrating, but i've never played the regen troll DC, so it may just be me being used to 3-4 deaths per match. I don't see why it shouldn't happen. And I don't see how allowing people to stay alive longer (depending on your skill and gear) and hit twice harder wouldn't be meaningful. With almost 7k power and a perfect vorpal in pvp, I'm close to making my team mates immortal as long as I'm not excessively focused or as long as there isn't tremendous amounts of debuffs around, so the red team better be able to kill me.
just curious, but what are you proccing LS spirit with?
Sustain typically refers to healing in the context of similar games. It's a semantics issue. No one questions the value of damage mitigation, but that's not what got nerfed.
I don't see where anyone is directly or even indirectly arguing for undying teams. DCs weren't able to sustain their teams indefinitely even before the patch. It's reasonable to assume that players are not taking 50% less damage across the board even with Tenacity, yet they are receiving 50% less healing; does this not suggest a problem to you?
I'm sorry, but there isn't a solid justification for the way that Healing Depression affects DC class skills or the way that it stacks with Righteousness. Healing Depression was applied as a blanket fix without regard to the DC class, which was in no way in need of that kind of fixing. Immortal clerics are a myth outside of grossly mismatched teams, in which case all classes are immortal. All I see in support of Healing Depression for DCs are a lot of straw man arguments and general exaggerations.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Yep, they have basically completely killed off the class I enjoyed to play the most. I can no longer effectively support my team, I can no longer hold points solo against virtually anyone, and almost every class is a better choice to bring along now. I have less dps than every single class in the game.
Congratulations on completely breaking my favorite class. I have 1k tenacity, 29k hps, have tried multiple gear combos out. It's all horrible. DC's are just free points and easy pickings now.
Might be time to pack up and try another game.
I'm no fan of the way Healing Depression works with the DC class, and I think it's unhealthy for the class and for the game for a number of reasons, but there are ways to remain somewhat relevant until the devs get around to implementing that fix for DCs in PvP that they mentioned (hopefully).
Forgemaster's Flame is about the only decent healing power we have left in that it not only has the potential to heal multiple team mates at once, but bypasses Righteousness so that you are "only" receiving the same 50% reduction that everyone else is getting rather than the cumulative 80% reduction that applies to other forms of DC self-healing. Obviously the issue with this strategy is that the target needs to remain in close quarters, and smart players will try to create distance from you if they realize that you've turned them into your personal heal battery.
Exaltation is a life saver even more so than before. Being able to block burst damage is invaluable since you can't expect to heal up efficiently. Also an excellent overall buff even without the immunity in Divine mode.
I fully agree that DCs are less desirable in competitive play since the patch since they neither kill nor heal particularly well (buffs and debuffs are useful, but they alone don't make the entire class, IMO). However, you can still faceroll in most PUG PvP and can make a respectable showing against other strong players even when it feels like an uphill battle. The part that's really unfortunate right now is that it takes a great deal more skill and deliberate character building to make DCs viable compared to every other class. If you go up against very good players and don't play your butt off, you can lose badly.
On the bright side, players will often underestimate DCs. A CW who successfully 1v1ed my team's 16k CW twice wanted to 1v1 my DC. He just sat there and spammed abilities at me, not bothering to dodge any of my attacks, obviously expecting the fight to be over in seconds. I ended up proccing his SF and then killing him while remaining above half health, using nothing but At-Wills and Forgemaster's because he never tried to dodge or move far enough away from me so that the FF heals would stop.
TL;DR: HD with DCs sucks and needs some level of fixing, but there are ways to work around it to an extent while we wait for tweaks.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH