I can tank the dragon. Both as a new 60 with only two purples (T1 boots and arms) and as an overpowered T2. I can take his hits just fine. What I can't take are the Maguses, the swarm of Imps and the Legions that the rest of my party cannot control/deal with.
And again, a GF that is still gearing up will almost certainly lack the DPS to kill an Erinyes. I am a T2 Timeless Conqueror and I have to wail at an Erinyes to kill it 1v1. A GF in mostly blues that isn't a conqueror and has 0 - 500 crit/arpen is not going to kill an Erinyes by himself, he'll just tickle it. I have been that GF as well.
Every failed Mad Dragon in my experience has ended like this:
1 - I die first because Maguses, Imps and Legions swarm me.
2 - I die last at 25 - 30% because party was overrun by Erinyes spawn of doom.
Chartillifax has never killed me. Only those adds kill me.
If by tanking you mean "surviving and having the aggro", sure, I can as well. It just gives very crappy results because you spend half the fight prone, and risk getting ROFLswarmed by imps while you are on the ground.
When I talk about tanking the adds, I don't mean to solo them, but to actually tank them. Working with your team mates, you can make a very efficient job at disposing them. Certainly, a lot more helpful than what I get "tanking" the dragon. Of course, if your mates are butchering the adds in a matter of seconds, all this is moot.
And I STILL don't know WTF is the big deal about always having the aggro on it. Who cares if he breaths to the wrong way, there is plenty of time to move away.
If by tanking you mean "surviving and having the aggro", sure, I can as well. It just gives very crappy results because you spend half the fight prone, and risk getting ROFLswarmed by imps while you are on the ground.
When I talk about tanking the adds, I don't mean to solo them, but to actually tank them. Working with your team mates, you can make a very efficient job at disposing them. Certainly, a lot more helpful than what I get "tanking" the dragon. Of course, if your mates are butchering the adds in a matter of seconds, all this is moot.
And I STILL don't know WTF is the big deal about always having the aggro on it. Who cares if he breaths to the wrong way, there is plenty of time to move away.
Only the Maguses can prone you in my experience. Sure, the dragon knocks you across the screen but you can get back into the fight almost immediately. If Maguses are kept away from me I am always on my feet and occasionally flying through the air.
Why would you willingly subject novices to poison breath, fire balls, prone attacks and Imps/Legions clustered in one area? That is just asking for a killing field where inexperienced and sub 9/10ks will meet a very quick death. The idea behind tanking is to shield the party from as much damage as possible by either being a meat shield or by positioning.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
" if you are a tank in any game and you dont run on 3 stacks of 99 pots and kits, plus mass ress scrolls just in case... you are doing it wrong, you are supposed to take tons of damage... "
Wrong.You don't suposed to take damage.You suppos to BLOCK damage ,and keeping busy minibosses and bosees.At least in NW.
I did King's Crypt in gauldrym tanking him the whole time and i used two (2) potions.You use abilities cooldawns your limited stamina/guard and well timed enc and dailies to stay allive keeping bosses bussy.that is sucesfull tanking for me.
In general now:
Wow tanking cannot be done in NW.For two reasons:
1)Aggro is based on damage AND in dmg taken by the adds.If ads are hitted by a cw or GWf or even A HR ,adios amigos.
I have seen in Idris the hulks passing through me while i had on them enhanced mark and threateneing rush.A and hitting them.They just pased me heading for the ranger.
2)The good GF have about 50% DR a 25% deflect and about 30k-32k HP.Go in an fairly easy dungeon like farelden crypt and try to "tank" the asmodeus and the priest and the adds without DC support.Fr example if your team has 2 HR and instead hitting parrying around.Will you survive for long?The only real difference of GF vs GWF in defence in the shield..
FOR THE OTHER CLASSES TO LEARN,BLOCK IT IS BASED ON STAMINA/GUARD METER.A GF CANNOT BLOCK FOREVER
And no i don't consider succesfull tanking the expense of 5k gold in potions and kits to get the 34silver blue HAMSTER from Chartifilax.My economic maths dictate me otherwise.
"And again, a GF that is still gearing up will almost certainly lack the DPS to kill an Erinyes. I am a T2 Timeless Conqueror and I have to wail at an Erinyes to kill it 1v1. A GF in mostly blues that isn't a conqueror and has 0 - 500 crit/arpen is not going to kill an Erinyes by himself, he'll just tickle it"
I am just an 12k defender swordmaster with only 12% arpen from dexterity and 30% rec.I can kill one alothough slow.
Knights challenge,crescendo, lunging strike, at/wills, knight challenge crescendo lunging strike ,in third crescendo Bye bye erinya.
"And I STILL don't know WTF is the big deal about always having the aggro on it. Who cares if he breaths to the wrong way, there is plenty of time to move away. "
Totally agree.If ever by a miracle a GF takes all the agro by all the adds in NW and is out of DC each he will die as simple as that.Cause it lacks real defence in NW.
"GF aggroes the hellfire magus and takes them to the left,"
ofcourse.You just mark them and these obediently and with out hesitation folow you blindly.They make you air they plow your garden they even cook for you. Seriously if a team has a HR(which always happens lately) and hits mangus good lack "taking them" with you.
"Everyone ignores hellfire magus for the whole fight"
Which spawn imps ,which imps SLOW YOU.And before you noticed the whole party is in slow motion.DC in slow motion?CW in slow motion?And then back to respawn point
Sorry for my tone but i tried all these strategies and except if you are in a really geard party THEY DON"T WORK.
The best strategy is the TR to tank the boss the others stay all together and kill adds.When erinyes arrive Gf must keep one of them busy.The dc takes the group farther.Two erinyes can be manageable.The gf just must stays alive.When the grioup kills the two they return back to gf they kll erinya .Congratulations dung is almost and surely finished.
it is by far the easiest to execute strategy.And the mst succesful, and the safest for all.
LOL. PK you can run with a pug of low GS players. First DD I did was a sloppy PK with an average GS of maybe 9.5. Mind we took it one room at a time and folks died but you can just mitigate the whole thing eventually with no gear and no idea what you are doing. A good team that knows the dungeon can run multis durring DD or even off DD. You try the same composition (low gear and experience I mean) in LMD and just wipe.
No, PK is predicated on having a CW that knows what he/she is doing, even if the CW is low geared. PK with low GS with an inexperienced CW is going to be a wipe.
I once did PK on my mid-geared GWF (12k) with a CW who I think was PVP-specced. I think I saw maybe 3 Arcane Singularities the entire time. We didn't finish.
Someone just corrected me on tanking? i've seen it all
Sry kiddo, you are doing it wrong... you simply dont block as a GF, i'm sorry... as better you become at this game... the less you block.
But i'm not in the mood of arguing with a newbie about how to tank, but i probably take the effort of writing a tanking guide (not only builds, but how to be successful in endgame and even top endgame as a GF)
To be fair, if you stack a reasonable amount of HP, lifesteal and regen, you very rarely need to to drink potions even if you decide to stand outside the blue. If your strategy revolves around always bringing an absolute ton of potions and injury kits, conversely... it's not going to be terribly economical.
The two big reasons that you want to drag the dragon away from the main party are:
1. The dragon's roar, which stuns everyone in range. Couple that with an inopportune prone from a hellfire magus AOE and it can lead to a lot of damage to the squishier classes.
2. The huge hitbox of the dragon. The adds will tend to cluster near the dragon if not deliberately dragged away, and it is difficult for the ranged players to target the adds and not the boss if they are all together.
BTW, pointsman: PK is easily doable without a CW: as long as your chosen boss-killing dps dude drags captain mcPirate hat away to the right of the boat, you can skoosh around by the addspawn area with threatening rush and mark/grab everything before they cause troubles.
(it helps if you also make the arcane singularity noises, of course)
Well, in that PK party I was in, the team composition was me (GWF), the CW, and 3 HR's who I think must have had armor made of cardboard. I could not DPS the boss fast enough before they all died.
And while we're on the subject, any tips on how to approach Mad Dragon from a GWF point of view would be appreciated, presuming that the GWF will be focused on the dragon.
Well, in that PK party I was in, the team composition was me (GWF), the CW, and 3 HR's who I think must have had armor made of cardboard. I could not DPS the boss fast enough before they all died.
HRs actually always gave me the impression of being squishier than CWs...
....right, well done. Now come up with a strategy that isn't obligately dependent on a TR.
I've run MD in a couple of all-DPS parties recently where the HR tanked the dragon. (These weren't PUGs though, and although we had variable gear scores, we were -fairly- organized.)
Mad Dragon isn't that hard. It game me the impression that it's kind of like the proving grounds to see if you can handle tougher PvE content. It's the first dungeon I encountered that couldn't just be zerged through. Of course you're going to fail when you're running it with a bunch of players who are used to just spamming aoe all the way through every dungeon and it actually works. Honestly though, if you can't handle scripted encounters where the enemies do the exact same thing over and over, you're probably not very good.
This is one of the easiest T1 in game. You only need someone (CW or GWF) to take care of adds. The issue in T1 is people willing to be the hero and mindlessly hitting the boss, not caring about the environment, what NPCs do, what others do... The only option is giving clear instructions in party chat. If CWs and GWFs don't listen then there's the vote to kick option. Not reading a party chat in a MMO is imo a legitimate reason to kick someone.
IMO Idris is harder than MD (mostly because of dazes from witches/the boss). And yes i did both lately.
May I add your post didn't add anything to the topic while mine was giving a few advices from someone who thinks the game isn't hard (thus not failing often)?
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
GF cannot tank thedragon cause simple its big red circle hit cannot be blocked.And it is so big that running away from it it is impossible.So the gf takes the -50% hp hit .Goes potion.Again tanking.taking hit....repeat.After he runs out of potions (20-30).He dies.he dies,group dies.
I have tanked the dragon multiple times on my GF & GWF, as have other people (as seen in the thread).
As someone else pointed out before, using mark on anything else than the dragon is close to impossible due to the ridiculous hitbox the dragon has.
The problem is, this requires at least one other competent party member to take care of the adds. But people are dumb and cannot even follow simple advice like "stay together".
IMO Idris is harder than MD (mostly because of dazes from witches/the boss). And yes i did both lately.
May I add your post didn't add anything to the topic while mine was giving a few advices from someone who thinks the game isn't hard (thus not failing often)?
Because you don't fail often *lately*, you have clearly forgotten the challenges that these dungeons offer when new players are facing them.
"GF aggroes the hellfire magus and takes them to the left,"
ofcourse.You just mark them and these obediently and with out hesitation folow you blindly.They make you air they plow your garden they even cook for you. Seriously if a team has a HR(which always happens lately) and hits mangus good lack "taking them" with you. Of course they follow you with a simple mark+enhanced threat. If you aggro them correctly you will hold aggro regardless of stray hits. You obviously haven't tried it. Of course if the dps starts dpsing them first and ignore the plan, then it is a team issue.
"Everyone ignores hellfire magus for the whole fight"
Which spawn imps ,which imps SLOW YOU.And before you noticed the whole party is in slow motion.DC in slow motion?CW in slow motion?And then back to respawn point As I've explained, imps are irrelevant to the gf while you hold the magus to the left, since he takes no other damage at all. So just kill any stray imps very very easily. The rest of the party yes, they have to kill the imps..whoops 4 people have to do something except hitting the big slow dragon. They will have to kill the imps in any scenario. Seriously, it is not that hard. You can kill them all in one cc rotation from the cw. Hell, notice their spawn points and pick them as they spawn so they don't gang up on the cleric.
Sorry for my tone but i tried all these strategies and except if you are in a really geard party THEY DON"T WORK.
The best strategy is the TR to tank the boss the others stay all together and kill adds.When erinyes arrive Gf must keep one of them busy.The dc takes the group farther.Two erinyes can be manageable.The gf just must stays alive.When the grioup kills the two they return back to gf they kll erinya .Congratulations dung is almost and surely finished.
it is by far the easiest to execute strategy.And the mst succesful, and the safest for all.
Not at all not the fastest nor safest nor most succesful, and you obviously haven't tried it. How can you compare having to kill the magus every time they respawn, with taking the magus (and the erinyes later) completely out of the fight. Or having one person dpsing the dragon compared to 4 people. This works regardless of gs. You see this is a problem with a lot of players, you tell them exactly what to do, and they don't do it, for whatever reason. Then they complain when they fail.
This is one of the easiest T1 in game. You only need someone (CW or GWF) to take care of adds.
Let me stop you right there. You may very well NOT get any CW or GWF's in a PUG for a T1. Even if you did, there is a very good chance they aren't experienced.
This dungeon then becomes very hard for a T1 dungeon.
CK is another dungeon that I don't believe can be done with a group just meeting the GS requirement. I'd love to watch the Devs try to do it (just the first boss) using standard blue gear, just meeting the minimums and no augment companions.
Mad Dragon isn't that hard. It game me the impression that it's kind of like the proving grounds to see if you can handle tougher PvE content. It's the first dungeon I encountered that couldn't just be zerged through. Of course you're going to fail when you're running it with a bunch of players who are used to just spamming aoe all the way through every dungeon and it actually works. Honestly though, if you can't handle scripted encounters where the enemies do the exact same thing over and over, you're probably not very good.
The point of this is;
I can carry 10 - 11ks through a place like Karrundax with my tank because I can meat shield things long enough for the boss to die. The first two boss fights are incredibly messy and we will likely wipe a few times, but the point is I will drag a party home.
I cannot carry sub 10ks past Chartillifax with my tank.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I still think this boss fight is too much for a t1. At least it is too much for "the lowest minimum gs epic run period". I think tos is even easier for t2 geared players than md is for blue geared players. Maybe it is because I rarely do this dungeon and when I do I am reminded that it is way pita for the reward.
MD is so overpowered, I want to see who can make this dungeon with the minimal recommended GS xD I doubt u can make it passed the first boss.
Yeah I want to throw in my experiences in now xD .. well my GF had a GS of 9k and I failed miserably with 4 other guys with 10k plus for more than 20 times in a row at the last boss. Composition didn't matter as it changed constantly through leavers.
For strategy I usually took the boss and the rest took the adds. That does work well until the erinyes spawn, then everyone dies xD.
Wining strategy: HR, GS 12k, on boss. It is essential that he knows what he is doing and can deal with him alone, with no support. Everyone else meaning GF (me), GS 9k, DC (12k), TR (9k) on adds. Yes only three. Our fifth man, a TR (12-13k) died immediately, when he tried to DPS the boss. Poor start right there. HR kept DPSing the boss and dragging him to the other end of the room, while rest used blue circle stuff from the DC. Totally easy as I pulled everything I saw with TAB.
Even the first wave was no problem. I tried also to get the imps from the HR as much as possible. As soon as the second wave spawned, *peep* got down. I pulled of the monsters and ran in circles, proning them and spam healing with potions and artifact xD TR and DC killed some of the magus and imps, while HR tried to finish the boss off. We did eventually .. although at the end, it was a close call as the HR did die too xD
So I would say he is managable, if the erinyes are not tried to be killed but kited, except u have full team 13k+ GS, than I guess killing them is possible.
MD is so overpowered, I want to see who can make this dungeon with the minimal recommended GS xD I doubt u can make it passed the first boss.
Yeah I want to throw in my experiences in now xD .. well my GF had a GS of 9k and I failed miserably with 4 other guys with 10k plus for more than 20 times in a row at the last boss. Composition didn't matter as it changed constantly through leavers.
For strategy I usually took the boss and the rest took the adds. That does work well until the erinyes spawn, then everyone dies xD.
Wining strategy: HR, GS 12k, on boss. It is essential that he knows what he is doing and can deal with him alone, with no support. Everyone else meaning GF (me), GS 9k, DC (12k), TR (9k) on adds. Yes only three. Our fifth man, a TR (12-13k) died immediately, when he tried to DPS the boss. Poor start right there. HR kept DPSing the boss and dragging him to the other end of the room, while rest used blue circle stuff from the DC. Totally easy as I pulled everything I saw with TAB.
Even the first wave was no problem. I tried also to get the imps from the HR as much as possible. As soon as the second wave spawned, *peep* got down. I pulled of the monsters and ran in circles, proning them and spam healing with potions and artifact xD TR and DC killed some of the magus and imps, while HR tried to finish the boss off. We did eventually .. although at the end, it was a close call as the HR did die too xD
So I would say he is managable, if the erinyes are not tried to be killed but kited, except u have full team 13k+ GS, than I guess killing them is possible.
This fight used to be harder in open beta actually, there were more mage spawns iirc. I believe I first did it with a 9k party. It's not a hard fight, but it does require people to know what they are doing.
Comments
If by tanking you mean "surviving and having the aggro", sure, I can as well. It just gives very crappy results because you spend half the fight prone, and risk getting ROFLswarmed by imps while you are on the ground.
When I talk about tanking the adds, I don't mean to solo them, but to actually tank them. Working with your team mates, you can make a very efficient job at disposing them. Certainly, a lot more helpful than what I get "tanking" the dragon. Of course, if your mates are butchering the adds in a matter of seconds, all this is moot.
And I STILL don't know WTF is the big deal about always having the aggro on it. Who cares if he breaths to the wrong way, there is plenty of time to move away.
Only the Maguses can prone you in my experience. Sure, the dragon knocks you across the screen but you can get back into the fight almost immediately. If Maguses are kept away from me I am always on my feet and occasionally flying through the air.
Why would you willingly subject novices to poison breath, fire balls, prone attacks and Imps/Legions clustered in one area? That is just asking for a killing field where inexperienced and sub 9/10ks will meet a very quick death. The idea behind tanking is to shield the party from as much damage as possible by either being a meat shield or by positioning.
Wrong.You don't suposed to take damage.You suppos to BLOCK damage ,and keeping busy minibosses and bosees.At least in NW.
I did King's Crypt in gauldrym tanking him the whole time and i used two (2) potions.You use abilities cooldawns your limited stamina/guard and well timed enc and dailies to stay allive keeping bosses bussy.that is sucesfull tanking for me.
In general now:
Wow tanking cannot be done in NW.For two reasons:
1)Aggro is based on damage AND in dmg taken by the adds.If ads are hitted by a cw or GWf or even A HR ,adios amigos.
I have seen in Idris the hulks passing through me while i had on them enhanced mark and threateneing rush.A and hitting them.They just pased me heading for the ranger.
2)The good GF have about 50% DR a 25% deflect and about 30k-32k HP.Go in an fairly easy dungeon like farelden crypt and try to "tank" the asmodeus and the priest and the adds without DC support.Fr example if your team has 2 HR and instead hitting parrying around.Will you survive for long?The only real difference of GF vs GWF in defence in the shield..
FOR THE OTHER CLASSES TO LEARN,BLOCK IT IS BASED ON STAMINA/GUARD METER.A GF CANNOT BLOCK FOREVER
And no i don't consider succesfull tanking the expense of 5k gold in potions and kits to get the 34silver blue HAMSTER from Chartifilax.My economic maths dictate me otherwise.
"And again, a GF that is still gearing up will almost certainly lack the DPS to kill an Erinyes. I am a T2 Timeless Conqueror and I have to wail at an Erinyes to kill it 1v1. A GF in mostly blues that isn't a conqueror and has 0 - 500 crit/arpen is not going to kill an Erinyes by himself, he'll just tickle it"
I am just an 12k defender swordmaster with only 12% arpen from dexterity and 30% rec.I can kill one alothough slow.
Knights challenge,crescendo, lunging strike, at/wills, knight challenge crescendo lunging strike ,in third crescendo Bye bye erinya.
"And I STILL don't know WTF is the big deal about always having the aggro on it. Who cares if he breaths to the wrong way, there is plenty of time to move away. "
Totally agree.If ever by a miracle a GF takes all the agro by all the adds in NW and is out of DC each he will die as simple as that.Cause it lacks real defence in NW.
"GF aggroes the hellfire magus and takes them to the left,"
ofcourse.You just mark them and these obediently and with out hesitation folow you blindly.They make you air they plow your garden they even cook for you.
"Everyone ignores hellfire magus for the whole fight"
Which spawn imps ,which imps SLOW YOU.And before you noticed the whole party is in slow motion.DC in slow motion?CW in slow motion?And then back to respawn point
Sorry for my tone
The best strategy is the TR to tank the boss the others stay all together and kill adds.When erinyes arrive Gf must keep one of them busy.The dc takes the group farther.Two erinyes can be manageable.The gf just must stays alive.When the grioup kills the two they return back to gf they kll erinya .Congratulations dung is almost and surely finished.
it is by far the easiest to execute strategy.And the mst succesful, and the safest for all.
No, PK is predicated on having a CW that knows what he/she is doing, even if the CW is low geared. PK with low GS with an inexperienced CW is going to be a wipe.
I once did PK on my mid-geared GWF (12k) with a CW who I think was PVP-specced. I think I saw maybe 3 Arcane Singularities the entire time. We didn't finish.
Sry kiddo, you are doing it wrong... you simply dont block as a GF, i'm sorry... as better you become at this game... the less you block.
But i'm not in the mood of arguing with a newbie about how to tank, but i probably take the effort of writing a tanking guide (not only builds, but how to be successful in endgame and even top endgame as a GF)
1. The dragon's roar, which stuns everyone in range. Couple that with an inopportune prone from a hellfire magus AOE and it can lead to a lot of damage to the squishier classes.
2. The huge hitbox of the dragon. The adds will tend to cluster near the dragon if not deliberately dragged away, and it is difficult for the ranged players to target the adds and not the boss if they are all together.
BTW, pointsman: PK is easily doable without a CW: as long as your chosen boss-killing dps dude drags captain mcPirate hat away to the right of the boat, you can skoosh around by the addspawn area with threatening rush and mark/grab everything before they cause troubles.
(it helps if you also make the arcane singularity noises, of course)
HRs actually always gave me the impression of being squishier than CWs...
^^^
Who you refer to?
I've run MD in a couple of all-DPS parties recently where the HR tanked the dragon.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
IMO Idris is harder than MD (mostly because of dazes from witches/the boss). And yes i did both lately.
May I add your post didn't add anything to the topic while mine was giving a few advices from someone who thinks the game isn't hard (thus not failing often)?
As someone else pointed out before, using mark on anything else than the dragon is close to impossible due to the ridiculous hitbox the dragon has.
The problem is, this requires at least one other competent party member to take care of the adds. But people are dumb and cannot even follow simple advice like "stay together".
Because you don't fail often *lately*, you have clearly forgotten the challenges that these dungeons offer when new players are facing them.
Kill the maguses when they spawn, that's the best thing a GWF can do in MD.
/tencharacters
Let me stop you right there. You may very well NOT get any CW or GWF's in a PUG for a T1. Even if you did, there is a very good chance they aren't experienced.
This dungeon then becomes very hard for a T1 dungeon.
CK is another dungeon that I don't believe can be done with a group just meeting the GS requirement. I'd love to watch the Devs try to do it (just the first boss) using standard blue gear, just meeting the minimums and no augment companions.
The point of this is;
I can carry 10 - 11ks through a place like Karrundax with my tank because I can meat shield things long enough for the boss to die. The first two boss fights are incredibly messy and we will likely wipe a few times, but the point is I will drag a party home.
I cannot carry sub 10ks past Chartillifax with my tank.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Yeah I want to throw in my experiences in now xD .. well my GF had a GS of 9k and I failed miserably with 4 other guys with 10k plus for more than 20 times in a row at the last boss. Composition didn't matter as it changed constantly through leavers.
For strategy I usually took the boss and the rest took the adds. That does work well until the erinyes spawn, then everyone dies xD.
Wining strategy: HR, GS 12k, on boss. It is essential that he knows what he is doing and can deal with him alone, with no support. Everyone else meaning GF (me), GS 9k, DC (12k), TR (9k) on adds. Yes only three. Our fifth man, a TR (12-13k) died immediately, when he tried to DPS the boss. Poor start right there. HR kept DPSing the boss and dragging him to the other end of the room, while rest used blue circle stuff from the DC. Totally easy as I pulled everything I saw with TAB.
Even the first wave was no problem. I tried also to get the imps from the HR as much as possible. As soon as the second wave spawned, *peep* got down. I pulled of the monsters and ran in circles, proning them and spam healing with potions and artifact xD TR and DC killed some of the magus and imps, while HR tried to finish the boss off. We did eventually .. although at the end, it was a close call as the HR did die too xD
So I would say he is managable, if the erinyes are not tried to be killed but kited, except u have full team 13k+ GS, than I guess killing them is possible.
This fight used to be harder in open beta actually, there were more mage spawns iirc. I believe I first did it with a 9k party. It's not a hard fight, but it does require people to know what they are doing.