Also.. add a screen shot showing mitigated damage and buffed damage by individual, doesn't matter if your running plaguefire with high prophet and all your other buffs ect, since groups dont have a clue what your doing behind the scene. At least you can start the argument that X # of damage was provided because of my class, so they could see value besides just stacking another CW.
I am not sure this would help change people's opinions on just stacking CWs since CWs bring a huge amount of debuffs. If anything it might even be counterproductive.
The fundamental issue with the add-fest Dungeons is that right now a single class brings by far the best control, debuffs and at least joint-best AOE damage, so you really don't need any other class apart from a DC, and even those are optional after the CWs get geared up sufficiently...
The control and debuffs are fine for a controller class, it is just the top notch AOE damage in addition that renders the other classes irrelevant.
this is true, CW shouldnt do as much damage as they do. Same thing can be said about Gwf being able to tank 68 mobs plus a boss at the same time balance this 2 issues and you should start seeing more mixed groups in dungeons
this is true, CW shouldnt do as much damage as they do. Same thing can be said about Gwf being able to tank 68 mobs plus a boss at the same time balance this 2 issues and you should start seeing more mixed groups in dungeons
Actually I think that defence-specced Sentinels should be able to tank seeing that Sentinel is a tank spec. Naturally they should have lower damage as a trade-off so as not to render other specs/classes irrelevant.
Actually I think that defence-specced Sentinels should be able to tank seeing that Sentinel is a tank spec. Naturally they should have lower damage as a trade-off so as not to render other specs/classes irrelevant.
That im fine with just the same as you could have dpsing DC but the problem now is that CW's and GWF's can do 2 things at the same time extremely well even better than other classes
Actually I think that defence-specced Sentinels should be able to tank seeing that Sentinel is a tank spec. Naturally they should have lower damage as a trade-off so as not to render other specs/classes irrelevant.
Sentinels should not be able to out tank a GF, which they can do routinely.
The whole hourly-event idea has *finally* died in STO (it's a bad idea to begin with). It's only a matter of time before the shine wears-off in Neverwinter; when they won't have to bribe players to play certain content. I am of the firm believe that they should kill the hourly event rewards, redistribute the awards on a per-completion basis and nix the hourly event altogether.
If anything is related to the clock at all it should only be availability and nothing more (such as those instances that are not available 24/7 - everything else should just be removed from the timer).
Just my own too-sense about it. I speak only for myself and though I don't believe for an instance I'm wrong, I'm not stupid enough to proclaim I'm right. Everyone has different measurements of entertainment.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited February 2014
How would you handle something like skirmishes though, where it would be possible to farm obscene amounts of ADs if that reward weren't time-limited? Removing it doesn't seem fair, as it's by far the easiest way for a starting player to get some seed money.
How would you handle something like skirmishes though, where it would be possible to farm obscene amounts of ADs if that reward weren't time-limited? Removing it doesn't seem fair, as it's by far the easiest way for a starting player to get some seed money.
seeing as skirmishes provide only RAD it's already a non-issue.
However if you wanted to reign in the amount of RAD skirmishes provide if they did away with events, then they only need to add back the skirmish daily at lvl 60. complete 4 skirmishes and gain 4k RAD.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
seeing as skirmishes provide only RAD it's already a non-issue.
Anyone that's ever ground the Blacklake skirmish will tell you it's not, especially now that you can queue for it pretty much right after completing the tutorial. The only limitation on that would be the player's own boredom.
According to my guild, they will never do top-tier dungeons without 3 CWs in party because the game is add-heavy and crowd control is the best approach, especially when add are hitting for 30k
you can do everything with 1 good CW (except CN). CN requires 2, if they are good. Most teams will stack 3 to compensate for mistakes, but 3 CW is hardly necessary.
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
CN hardly requires 2 CW.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
Read the whole thread now -
I don't think this "nerf the CW" solution is the way to do it. Since doing existing content quickly involves pulling 30 mobs at once, it would make the way we run dungeons invalid. I don't praticularly like that.
And they say, it's overpowered, and you know what? it's overpowered, but this is not because CW is straight up overpowered. IF we are running a party with 15k+ GS, perfect enchants, debuff stacking, and good coordination, proper pet bonuses, and other stuff, we _SHOULD_ be demolishing all the content. Remember, the mobs in CN are probably designed to be smooth at 11-12k, and I am running with almost 16k + extra DPS from pets + 40% control bonus.
What has happened is that endgame teams have outgrown the content. Just today I 3-manned CN, and we killed draco with no soulforge proc, let alone death. The content is too easy for us now.
That said, say you do nerf CW. It makes the game harder for _everyone_, making completion of a PUG T2 with normal gear (say 12k) incredibly difficult. PUG runs now take over an hour and may not win, what is this going to do? make it near impossible? If people get to 60 (which is easy) and then hit this insurmountable gearing wall, they will just quit. Therefore, this option is invalid because of how it effects low and mid level teams. All it would do for us is make CN take 50 or 60 minutes instead of 40 minutes. Big deal.
The issue is fundamentally one of design, and I have said this a hundred times on here now. Take a look at MC, which was a great step in the right direction. There are larger, more powerful mobs. Some have control immunities, they can not be killed in 5 seconds, and they hit for very significant damage. Playing MC is how the game should be - we can take almost any class combination and be sucessful. Once I won paingiver on my TR in there, and my DPS really matters to take down high priority targets. As i was clearing with GF i could _actually_ tank something, and face tanking on GF is a blast. I learned that using knights challange on a conqueror on King Malabog *might* not be the best idea. As a GWF you can aoe the mobs down, like you should be able to do, as a DC you do your heal/buff thing, and as a HR you can split shot and support the big groups and aimed-shot nuke the tough mobs.
That's how this game _should_ be played and we have a great example of it in MC.
Take CN, for example. The clear is a mountain of trash, relatively low HP, easily controlled, a very few of those mobs hit for real damage, so just bring CW/GWF and plow through. The bosses are all the same, big mob, has a slow nuke attack that hurts a ton, but slow and easy to dodge. Through the fight ton of easy ads spawn continously, so what then? bring tons of CW, sing on bosses head, blow it all up.
What if there was less trash? what if the adds didn't spawn so much? or heaven forbid, what if the most damage you take from CN is not "ranged attack" from archers?
Then all of a sudden every class has a use. IT becomes like MC, which is way more fun that all other dungeons.
So why run CN so much? Running CN nets each member approximately 100k and lots of enchants, the boss fight is hard, and it is satisfying to finish.
MC, the run is much more fun, but running MC nets less runes, seals to buy sets that are largely worthless, an artifact that you have less than 1/200 of getting, fragments that you have a similar chance of getting, and a small chance of getting your offhand for the fomorian set. so once you ahve the offhand, it's a waste of time. You are better off running CN for AD and buying everything.
Now imagine some dungeons, similar mob design to MC in terms of varriance, similar drop to CN in terms of quality and sale value, and it's say, 50% more difficult than MC/CN/VT - what would happen? Endgame groups would not ask for 3 CW, they would ask for good players.
Solution is simple, less trash and less CW. Learn from the success (MC) and the pitiful failure (VT) and make the next dungeon both varried and profitable.
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
nice rant.
Requesting a redesign of every single dungeon in the game is a pipe dream. It takes minimum 4 months to create a single dungeon and another month+ to tune that dungeon once built. Given the amount of time it takes for simple bug/exploit fixes in existing dungeons, even simple things such as mob placement, geometry changes and invisible wall fixes, saying "redesign the entire pve experience to match MC" is basically saying "Keep CWs the dominant PVE class for the life of this game." Obviously the priority for the content team (ie not the zen store guys) is on new content, not refurbishing old content.
A far simpler solution that is much more likely to happen given dev priorities and time is this:
1. Selective nerfing of CW damage and debuff abilities (and/or a debuff cap), heavily favoring reduction of max damage on CW abilities with more normalized damage at baseline. The primary skills that should have their damage drastically reduced are oppressive force, shard of the endless avalanche, and sudden storm. The changes to debuffs are enough of a damage nerf for the rest. The low end control specialized CW damage is fine, the high end AOE DPS focused CW is not. The former's damage should not be affected, the latter's damage needs to be around 40% of current. This has a bare minimum impact on low/avg gs players and minimal impact on the run time of a 10-12k gs pug.
2. Reversal of control nerfs to CW that have taken place. ie target cap limitations and ap gain limitations on CW Control spells.
3. Deep Gash rebalance. This is already happening and will reduce GWFs dps to 50% of current. Since this is already happening #1 and #2 need to also happen or it just puts GWFs back on the short bus where they've been at since the nerf in closed beta until Mod 2 anyway.
The above changes drastically reduces AOE dps to the point where you can't really stack only aoe dps and efficiently clear dungeons. You could still do it, but it would be messier and less efficient than bringing a gf/tr/hr/dc etc. Tough mobs and higher will simply live too long to effectively clear this way, and the longer mobs live the more squishy/aggro magnet classes will hinder groups without proper tanking, aggro management and single target focus fire damage.
1 CW should have enough control to control everything that is controllable, at least for a reasonable amount of time. They shouldn't also be the ones killing everything.
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sean99999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
It seems unfortunate that there's only a few arguments which presents alternatives/enhancements to the solutions i proposed, while the majority of this thread resulted in a NERF-class X rally. Please keep the nerf class X and buff class Y arguments to another thread. This is not the intention of the thread at all.
Now, back to my points. When i proposed a daily/weekly limit to dungeons, the implementation of the idea was not presented. What i am saying is, the focus of the game should be shifted to how comfortable and smooth a run is, not how fast and chaotic we can rush through the dungeon, collect 100 mobs, and AOE clear them to death.
How can we do that? The one way i proposed was for a daily/weekly limit. If there are any well thought suggestions out there besides NERF CLASS X or NERF THE DUNGEONS, i'll love to hear them.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
You are under the impression that the most efficient way to clear dungeons (that is heavily stacking CW/GWF) is not also the most comfortable and smooth. You are mistaken. Dungeons become hectic and chaotic the less AOE damage you have present, ie the longer mobs live.
You are free to run dungeons without CW, GWF, and to a lesser extent, HRs. There's a lot of things you could say to describe this kind of group, even if well paced. Slow, deliberate, methodical clearing. However, comfortable and smooth are not the adjectives that immediately spring to mind.
You are of the opinion that the time sensitive nature of the DD hour is what leads to class imbalance as far as desirability of classes in group pve content. Again you are mistaken. There are 2 assumptions here, one, that a balanced party is more "comfortable" and "smooth" which i've addressed above, and two, that player's do not value their time.
Given the option of accomplishing a task in 20 minutes or spending 45min for the same reward, regardless of mechanism (DD hour, key, weekly tally) and hoping that players will opt for the latter is a rather silly notion.
How can we do that? The one way i proposed was for a daily/weekly limit. If there are any well thought suggestions out there besides NERF CLASS X or NERF THE DUNGEONS, i'll love to hear them.
Didn't like the key ideas? I think that will not only eliminate the "speed is the most important factor" factor, but make the game more enjoyable, playable for longer, and make it more money. I mean, if I miss DD, I basically do my dailies and call it quits, or maybe goof around on an alt. I would definitely play more, be more satisfied and content to spend money if the main part of mmo's for me (cooperative pve) wasn't so insanely restricted.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Requesting a redesign of every single dungeon in the game is a pipe dream. It takes minimum 4 months to create a single dungeon and another month+ to tune that dungeon once built. Given the amount of time it takes for simple bug/exploit fixes in existing dungeons, even simple things such as mob placement, geometry changes and invisible wall fixes, saying "redesign the entire pve experience to match MC" is basically saying "Keep CWs the dominant PVE class for the life of this game." Obviously the priority for the content team (ie not the zen store guys) is on new content, not refurbishing old content.
A far simpler solution that is much more likely to happen given dev priorities and time is this:
1. Selective nerfing of CW damage and debuff abilities (and/or a debuff cap), heavily favoring reduction of max damage on CW abilities with more normalized damage at baseline. The primary skills that should have their damage drastically reduced are oppressive force, shard of the endless avalanche, and sudden storm. The changes to debuffs are enough of a damage nerf for the rest. The low end control specialized CW damage is fine, the high end AOE DPS focused CW is not. The former's damage should not be affected, the latter's damage needs to be around 40% of current. This has a bare minimum impact on low/avg gs players and minimal impact on the run time of a 10-12k gs pug.
2. Reversal of control nerfs to CW that have taken place. ie target cap limitations and ap gain limitations on CW Control spells.
3. Deep Gash rebalance. This is already happening and will reduce GWFs dps to 50% of current. Since this is already happening #1 and #2 need to also happen or it just puts GWFs back on the short bus where they've been at since the nerf in closed beta until Mod 2 anyway.
The above changes drastically reduces AOE dps to the point where you can't really stack only aoe dps and efficiently clear dungeons. You could still do it, but it would be messier and less efficient than bringing a gf/tr/hr/dc etc. Tough mobs and higher will simply live too long to effectively clear this way, and the longer mobs live the more squishy/aggro magnet classes will hinder groups without proper tanking, aggro management and single target focus fire damage.
1 CW should have enough control to control everything that is controllable, at least for a reasonable amount of time. They shouldn't also be the ones killing everything.
Nah, sorry.
I rolled this class to play as AoE DPS magic ranged, with some CC along the way. Class description and video streams confirmed it is what I want.
Not interested to play some lame CC-only with 4th place damage. I don't care about that.
Basically, it's either I have my magic DPS class to play, either I find game that has it. I don't like any other classes in MMOs besides ranged magic DPS.
chem has a longterm, proper solution, not some hurried patching of bleeding wounds.
DPS classes should all compete for top DPS place. CW is the magic DPS class, heavy on AoE, all good, nothing to worry about.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I rolled this class to play as AoE DPS magic ranged, with some CC along the way. Class description and video streams confirmed it is what I want.
Not interested to play some lame CC-only with 4th place damage. I don't care about that.
Basically, it's either I have my magic DPS class to play, either I find game that has it. I don't like any other classes in MMOs besides ranged magic DPS.
chem has a longterm, proper solution, not some hurried patching of bleeding wounds.
DPS classes should all compete for top DPS place. CW is the magic DPS class, heavy on AoE, all good, nothing to worry about.
basically you are saying you don't want the game balanced. See you then, enjoy your next game
I wasn't aware that you were a late comer to this game, I figured you were around from the start my bad. As the description of the control wizard class and all of its early play video was CC-only 4th place damage class. It wasn't until the high vizier bug was introduced after launch that CWs even realized that they even had AOE damage spells.
Chem has a pipe dream solution that doesn't even come close to balancing the game. Even if it were possible given unlimited man hours to do it, MC was just a tiny, tiny step in the right direction. If every non-minion were CC immune (Trolls, cyclops, + etc). the big elites (fomorians) had double the hit points and hit for twice as hard and that damage went through dodge immunity then we'd be closer to a balanced dungeon that included all classes.
Of course in that scenario with the classes as they are today, the CW would be exactly where they'd be in my scenario, down 3rd-4th place in the damage chart, yet lacking the control to really be viable given the damage exposure and squishiness of the class. They'd be the TR of the current game, ie not very desirable.
and in that scenario your ranged aoe dps magic ranged class concept you invented for this argument wouldn't be op and you'd have to find another game anyway.
Question though, what are you going to do when they come out with a warlock class or any other actual ranged magic damage dealer and then put the control wizard back in its proper place as CC?
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
basically you are saying you don't want the game balanced. See you then, enjoy your next game
I wasn't aware that you were a late comer to this game, I figured you were around from the start my bad. As the description of the control wizard class and all of its early play video was CC-only 4th place damage class. It wasn't until the high vizier bug was introduced after launch that CWs even realized that they even had AOE damage spells.
Chem has a pipe dream solution that doesn't even come close to balancing the game. Even if it were possible given unlimited man hours to do it, MC was just a tiny, tiny step in the right direction. If every non-minion were CC immune (Trolls, cyclops, + etc). the big elites (fomorians) had double the hit points and hit for twice as hard and that damage went through dodge immunity then we'd be closer to a balanced dungeon that included all classes.
Of course in that scenario with the classes as they are today, the CW would be exactly where they'd be in my scenario, down 3rd-4th place in the damage chart, yet lacking the control to really be viable given the damage exposure and squishiness of the class. They'd be the TR of the current game, ie not very desirable.
and in that scenario your ranged aoe dps magic ranged class concept you invented for this argument wouldn't be op and you'd have to find another game anyway.
Question though, what are you going to do when they come out with a warlock class or any other actual ranged magic damage dealer and then put the control wizard back in its proper place as CC?
Probably gonna send enchants to it and level one I suppose. I prefer mages however, as they were in WoW: pro CC, pro AoE, good single target, squishy. It's not an invented concept, it exists in most MMOs, Tank (fighter shield type), Healer (priest type), Melee DPS (thief/rogue type), Ranged DPS (hunter type), Ranged Magic DPS (Mage, Warlock type).
There's no need for CWs to ALWAYS end up as top damage. It should be a very close competition for the DPS classes. GWFs are performing up to par these days, just as CWs. Now we need to bring HRs and TRs up to par as well.
Again: CW should not top damage just because they are CWs. The damage, given proper spec&gear, should be dictated by player skill, if they are a DPS class.
And I'm not nearly as DPS horny as my post sounds. I have played a long while with suboptimal hybrid spec just because I wanted to do decently in PvP as well. Now I am full PvP spec and damage is even lower, which is OK, it was my decision, hope the devs are smart enough to give us dual spec already.
But I like to know that the class has the possibility to be best damage, if properly played, geared&specced. It goes back to my raiding days, and I doubt this mentality will ever change.
I rolled this class to play as AoE DPS magic ranged, with some CC along the way. Class description and video streams confirmed it is what I want.
Not interested to play some lame CC-only with 4th place damage. I don't care about that.
Basically, it's either I have my magic DPS class to play, either I find game that has it. I don't like any other classes in MMOs besides ranged magic DPS.
chem has a longterm, proper solution, not some hurried patching of bleeding wounds.
DPS classes should all compete for top DPS place. CW is the magic DPS class, heavy on AoE, all good, nothing to worry about.
Well, there IS such thing as specs for classes, which emphasize one are over the other. You could have a path that is "Heavy AoE with some control along the way" and other that is "Heavy control with some DPS along the way". Also you could, gasp, I don't know, the option to have two different specs you could switch to at the beginning of the dungeon. Clever idea I came up with uh? .
Not all the wizards need to be the same. Variety, as alien and aberrant this concept seems to be to the devs, is a good thing.
you can do everything with 1 good CW (except CN). CN requires 2, if they are good. Most teams will stack 3 to compensate for mistakes, but 3 CW is hardly necessary.
I disagree with this, we did CN 4/4 with 1 CW *Taja Fury*, 1 DC, and 3 GWFs without a single problem, full clear (on way to bosses not going sideways or treasure rooms ofc) ~30 min to get to Draco and 4 min kill. GWF's all used Roar and aoed the adds along with dragon. (group comp in detail: Taja on CW, Pum on DC, Cupcake GWF, Rockphaser GWF, Amelyn GWF, all 3 GWF destroyer, rockphaser IV, cupcake and myself SM). May not be the fastest nor the safest (it was, Taja's a beast on CW as far as control goes) from all possible variations, but we had a lot of fun and never encountered a problem or brick wall which a 2nd or 3rd CW would help lift.
you can do everything with 1 good CW (except CN). CN requires 2, if they are good. Most teams will stack 3 to compensate for mistakes, but 3 CW is hardly necessary.
i think you used the wrong word here, you can already see videos of draco being killed without CWs, heck theres even a video of a TR soloing it!
How would you handle something like skirmishes though, where it would be possible to farm obscene amounts of ADs if that reward weren't time-limited? Removing it doesn't seem fair, as it's by far the easiest way for a starting player to get some seed money.
Please reread my comments for the whole context, not just the parts that alarm you. The *rewards* would be rebalanced for 24/7 availability - meaning if you make a timed event (such as a skirmish) available 24/7 - then adjust the rewards to match, so that the same reward you can earn in thirty minutes during a timed event will take you 300-minutes or something.
twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited February 2014
I like the key idea, though I wouldn't limit it to one free key per day, as that seems overly restrictive to people trying to gear up (unless you upped the chest drop rates for gear). I'd say 2 a day at least, and keep the DD timer thing running on a bigger cycle (so you can reasonably hit it once per day, twice on weekends as a normal working adult).
As far as making other classes more valuable, I'd propose similar changes that I've read here in the thread, not necessarily a nerf to anyone, so much as using the paragon paths to create more defined roles.
For example, a GWF's paragon paths should be DPS focused or tank focused, and a CW's paths should be control focused, or DPS focused.
It would be fantastic if, after I cast ArcSing on a group of mobs, the best follow up for the group wasn't me casting Steal Time and Shard, thus spreading the mobs out. If I was controlling, and depending on others to burn the mobs down, I could focus on grouping them together and keeping them that way, while my party companions did the bulk of the damage.
Combinations of classes should work well together. A GF and a TR team up should be deadly to single targets (with the GF holding the target's focus and the TR backstabbing it to death), a CW controlling mobs with a GWF laying waste to them, a DC providing the heals and a TR acting as support DPS where needed and keeping the DC safe should a stray mob or two attempt to stop him from keeping the party alive.
Yes, that's 6 party members, and if you run with one of each, you SHOULD have 6 party members in an Epic dungeon run as an added bonus. Parties should have a Tank, a Healer, a Controller, and 2-3 DPS slots.
Since I can't start a new thread, even after playing for a few weeks....
Anyone have tips on beating decent GWFs with an HR? I can basically take anyone down, even guardian types. The sword fighter is another matter. The CC, the charge...really tough.
I don't think they can solve the CW problem. Keys and lockouts is not the solution. All that will happen is folks will log in once a day then logout. Eventually they will get tired of logging in for their 1 key and will move on.
As folks have pointed out the problem is dungeon design. You create add heavy dungeons and folks will want the best way to deal with them.
What they could do is give bosses weaknesses that specific class skills can take advantage of. It still doesn't deal with the add issue, but at least it might give groups incentives to bring a mix of classes.
I don't think they can solve the CW problem. Keys and lockouts is not the solution. All that will happen is folks will log in once a day then logout. Eventually they will get tired of logging in for their 1 key and will move on.
As folks have pointed out the problem is dungeon design. You create add heavy dungeons and folks will want the best way to deal with them.
What they could do is give bosses weaknesses that specific class skills can take advantage of. It still doesn't deal with the add issue, but at least it might give groups incentives to bring a mix of classes.
A great fix someone suggested is give every enemy specific resistance against different types of damage, e.g. divine, arcane. piercing, slashing, etc. Then these resistances could be tweaked as necessary.....
The only way to fix class demand issues is to change how debuffs works and reducing the CWs AoE damage. If both remained unchanged, even low damage classes will still hit mobs for aburd red damage numbers (45-50k crit daunting light on a cleric, anyone?), which makes single target damage classes like TRs uneeded because the damage multiplier from debuffs is so huge that you don't need them to kill a boss in under 2 minutes. You don't need tanks either, because mobs barely have time to cast a dangerous spell.
Redesigning dungeons without changing the debuff mechanics will still make the CWs kings of any kind of content, because they are the best debuffers. On the other hand, debuffs diminishing returns (with a hard cap, something around 1.5x damage at most) and selective reduction of some AoE spells damage (shard of endless avalanche and sudden storm) will likely not affect the low GS teams or pugs, who rarely have more than one or two optimized players using cookie cutter builds.
The only way to fix class demand issues is to change how debuffs works and reducing the CWs AoE damage. If both remained unchanged, even low damage classes will still hit mobs for aburd red damage numbers (45-50k crit daunting light on a cleric, anyone
That still doesn't fix anything. Sub par classes would still be subpar. They need to make the other classes more desirable.
The carrot is always better than the stick.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
A great fix someone suggested is give every enemy specific resistance against different types of damage, e.g. divine, arcane. piercing, slashing, etc. Then these resistances could be tweaked as necessary.....
If you want fix things, look at it from a different point of view, and think outside the box.
Here are my two suggestions:
First:
Damage Types
CW - Arcane
DC - Divine
TR - Slashing/Piercing (depending on the power)
HR - Slashing/Piercing (depending on the stance)
GWF/GF - Slashing/Bludgeoning (Depending on the weapon)
Give different mobs and bosses certain resistances, immunities and susceptibilities to these damage types. Three CW's might make a run faster in general, but how about that boss that's resistant to Arcane damage. How long does that boss fight take now? Of course, if you leave these resistances etc. off of players, it will have zero impact to PvP so balancing is easier.
Second:
You need better defined roles for all classes. Each class should have a mix of abilities to play into different roles, but each class should excel, based on their paragon path and feat tree, at a particular role. How would this apply to CW's? Well, with two paragon paths, I would suggest one be DPS focused and one me Control focused. The more you focus on one, the more the other suffers. Just like a tank path would do less DPS the more designed he was to hold agro and actually tank, or a DPS focused GWF for instance, the more they focused on DPS, the less control they get.
Of course, that's a fairly large rework of powers so I know it would never happen.
Comments
I am not sure this would help change people's opinions on just stacking CWs since CWs bring a huge amount of debuffs. If anything it might even be counterproductive.
The fundamental issue with the add-fest Dungeons is that right now a single class brings by far the best control, debuffs and at least joint-best AOE damage, so you really don't need any other class apart from a DC, and even those are optional after the CWs get geared up sufficiently...
The control and debuffs are fine for a controller class, it is just the top notch AOE damage in addition that renders the other classes irrelevant.
Actually I think that defence-specced Sentinels should be able to tank seeing that Sentinel is a tank spec. Naturally they should have lower damage as a trade-off so as not to render other specs/classes irrelevant.
That im fine with just the same as you could have dpsing DC but the problem now is that CW's and GWF's can do 2 things at the same time extremely well even better than other classes
Sentinels should not be able to out tank a GF, which they can do routinely.
If anything is related to the clock at all it should only be availability and nothing more (such as those instances that are not available 24/7 - everything else should just be removed from the timer).
Just my own too-sense about it. I speak only for myself and though I don't believe for an instance I'm wrong, I'm not stupid enough to proclaim I'm right. Everyone has different measurements of entertainment.
~shrugs~
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
However if you wanted to reign in the amount of RAD skirmishes provide if they did away with events, then they only need to add back the skirmish daily at lvl 60. complete 4 skirmishes and gain 4k RAD.
Anyone that's ever ground the Blacklake skirmish will tell you it's not, especially now that you can queue for it pretty much right after completing the tutorial. The only limitation on that would be the player's own boredom.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
you can do everything with 1 good CW (except CN). CN requires 2, if they are good. Most teams will stack 3 to compensate for mistakes, but 3 CW is hardly necessary.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I don't think this "nerf the CW" solution is the way to do it. Since doing existing content quickly involves pulling 30 mobs at once, it would make the way we run dungeons invalid. I don't praticularly like that.
And they say, it's overpowered, and you know what? it's overpowered, but this is not because CW is straight up overpowered. IF we are running a party with 15k+ GS, perfect enchants, debuff stacking, and good coordination, proper pet bonuses, and other stuff, we _SHOULD_ be demolishing all the content. Remember, the mobs in CN are probably designed to be smooth at 11-12k, and I am running with almost 16k + extra DPS from pets + 40% control bonus.
What has happened is that endgame teams have outgrown the content. Just today I 3-manned CN, and we killed draco with no soulforge proc, let alone death. The content is too easy for us now.
That said, say you do nerf CW. It makes the game harder for _everyone_, making completion of a PUG T2 with normal gear (say 12k) incredibly difficult. PUG runs now take over an hour and may not win, what is this going to do? make it near impossible? If people get to 60 (which is easy) and then hit this insurmountable gearing wall, they will just quit. Therefore, this option is invalid because of how it effects low and mid level teams. All it would do for us is make CN take 50 or 60 minutes instead of 40 minutes. Big deal.
The issue is fundamentally one of design, and I have said this a hundred times on here now. Take a look at MC, which was a great step in the right direction. There are larger, more powerful mobs. Some have control immunities, they can not be killed in 5 seconds, and they hit for very significant damage. Playing MC is how the game should be - we can take almost any class combination and be sucessful. Once I won paingiver on my TR in there, and my DPS really matters to take down high priority targets. As i was clearing with GF i could _actually_ tank something, and face tanking on GF is a blast. I learned that using knights challange on a conqueror on King Malabog *might* not be the best idea. As a GWF you can aoe the mobs down, like you should be able to do, as a DC you do your heal/buff thing, and as a HR you can split shot and support the big groups and aimed-shot nuke the tough mobs.
That's how this game _should_ be played and we have a great example of it in MC.
Take CN, for example. The clear is a mountain of trash, relatively low HP, easily controlled, a very few of those mobs hit for real damage, so just bring CW/GWF and plow through. The bosses are all the same, big mob, has a slow nuke attack that hurts a ton, but slow and easy to dodge. Through the fight ton of easy ads spawn continously, so what then? bring tons of CW, sing on bosses head, blow it all up.
What if there was less trash? what if the adds didn't spawn so much? or heaven forbid, what if the most damage you take from CN is not "ranged attack" from archers?
Then all of a sudden every class has a use. IT becomes like MC, which is way more fun that all other dungeons.
So why run CN so much? Running CN nets each member approximately 100k and lots of enchants, the boss fight is hard, and it is satisfying to finish.
MC, the run is much more fun, but running MC nets less runes, seals to buy sets that are largely worthless, an artifact that you have less than 1/200 of getting, fragments that you have a similar chance of getting, and a small chance of getting your offhand for the fomorian set. so once you ahve the offhand, it's a waste of time. You are better off running CN for AD and buying everything.
Now imagine some dungeons, similar mob design to MC in terms of varriance, similar drop to CN in terms of quality and sale value, and it's say, 50% more difficult than MC/CN/VT - what would happen? Endgame groups would not ask for 3 CW, they would ask for good players.
Solution is simple, less trash and less CW. Learn from the success (MC) and the pitiful failure (VT) and make the next dungeon both varried and profitable.
/end rant
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Requesting a redesign of every single dungeon in the game is a pipe dream. It takes minimum 4 months to create a single dungeon and another month+ to tune that dungeon once built. Given the amount of time it takes for simple bug/exploit fixes in existing dungeons, even simple things such as mob placement, geometry changes and invisible wall fixes, saying "redesign the entire pve experience to match MC" is basically saying "Keep CWs the dominant PVE class for the life of this game." Obviously the priority for the content team (ie not the zen store guys) is on new content, not refurbishing old content.
A far simpler solution that is much more likely to happen given dev priorities and time is this:
1. Selective nerfing of CW damage and debuff abilities (and/or a debuff cap), heavily favoring reduction of max damage on CW abilities with more normalized damage at baseline. The primary skills that should have their damage drastically reduced are oppressive force, shard of the endless avalanche, and sudden storm. The changes to debuffs are enough of a damage nerf for the rest. The low end control specialized CW damage is fine, the high end AOE DPS focused CW is not. The former's damage should not be affected, the latter's damage needs to be around 40% of current. This has a bare minimum impact on low/avg gs players and minimal impact on the run time of a 10-12k gs pug.
2. Reversal of control nerfs to CW that have taken place. ie target cap limitations and ap gain limitations on CW Control spells.
3. Deep Gash rebalance. This is already happening and will reduce GWFs dps to 50% of current. Since this is already happening #1 and #2 need to also happen or it just puts GWFs back on the short bus where they've been at since the nerf in closed beta until Mod 2 anyway.
The above changes drastically reduces AOE dps to the point where you can't really stack only aoe dps and efficiently clear dungeons. You could still do it, but it would be messier and less efficient than bringing a gf/tr/hr/dc etc. Tough mobs and higher will simply live too long to effectively clear this way, and the longer mobs live the more squishy/aggro magnet classes will hinder groups without proper tanking, aggro management and single target focus fire damage.
1 CW should have enough control to control everything that is controllable, at least for a reasonable amount of time. They shouldn't also be the ones killing everything.
Now, back to my points. When i proposed a daily/weekly limit to dungeons, the implementation of the idea was not presented. What i am saying is, the focus of the game should be shifted to how comfortable and smooth a run is, not how fast and chaotic we can rush through the dungeon, collect 100 mobs, and AOE clear them to death.
How can we do that? The one way i proposed was for a daily/weekly limit. If there are any well thought suggestions out there besides NERF CLASS X or NERF THE DUNGEONS, i'll love to hear them.
You are free to run dungeons without CW, GWF, and to a lesser extent, HRs. There's a lot of things you could say to describe this kind of group, even if well paced. Slow, deliberate, methodical clearing. However, comfortable and smooth are not the adjectives that immediately spring to mind.
You are of the opinion that the time sensitive nature of the DD hour is what leads to class imbalance as far as desirability of classes in group pve content. Again you are mistaken. There are 2 assumptions here, one, that a balanced party is more "comfortable" and "smooth" which i've addressed above, and two, that player's do not value their time.
Given the option of accomplishing a task in 20 minutes or spending 45min for the same reward, regardless of mechanism (DD hour, key, weekly tally) and hoping that players will opt for the latter is a rather silly notion.
Didn't like the key ideas? I think that will not only eliminate the "speed is the most important factor" factor, but make the game more enjoyable, playable for longer, and make it more money. I mean, if I miss DD, I basically do my dailies and call it quits, or maybe goof around on an alt. I would definitely play more, be more satisfied and content to spend money if the main part of mmo's for me (cooperative pve) wasn't so insanely restricted.
Nah, sorry.
I rolled this class to play as AoE DPS magic ranged, with some CC along the way. Class description and video streams confirmed it is what I want.
Not interested to play some lame CC-only with 4th place damage. I don't care about that.
Basically, it's either I have my magic DPS class to play, either I find game that has it. I don't like any other classes in MMOs besides ranged magic DPS.
chem has a longterm, proper solution, not some hurried patching of bleeding wounds.
DPS classes should all compete for top DPS place. CW is the magic DPS class, heavy on AoE, all good, nothing to worry about.
I wasn't aware that you were a late comer to this game, I figured you were around from the start my bad. As the description of the control wizard class and all of its early play video was CC-only 4th place damage class. It wasn't until the high vizier bug was introduced after launch that CWs even realized that they even had AOE damage spells.
Chem has a pipe dream solution that doesn't even come close to balancing the game. Even if it were possible given unlimited man hours to do it, MC was just a tiny, tiny step in the right direction. If every non-minion were CC immune (Trolls, cyclops, + etc). the big elites (fomorians) had double the hit points and hit for twice as hard and that damage went through dodge immunity then we'd be closer to a balanced dungeon that included all classes.
Of course in that scenario with the classes as they are today, the CW would be exactly where they'd be in my scenario, down 3rd-4th place in the damage chart, yet lacking the control to really be viable given the damage exposure and squishiness of the class. They'd be the TR of the current game, ie not very desirable.
and in that scenario your ranged aoe dps magic ranged class concept you invented for this argument wouldn't be op and you'd have to find another game anyway.
Question though, what are you going to do when they come out with a warlock class or any other actual ranged magic damage dealer and then put the control wizard back in its proper place as CC?
Probably gonna send enchants to it and level one I suppose. I prefer mages however, as they were in WoW: pro CC, pro AoE, good single target, squishy. It's not an invented concept, it exists in most MMOs, Tank (fighter shield type), Healer (priest type), Melee DPS (thief/rogue type), Ranged DPS (hunter type), Ranged Magic DPS (Mage, Warlock type).
There's no need for CWs to ALWAYS end up as top damage. It should be a very close competition for the DPS classes. GWFs are performing up to par these days, just as CWs. Now we need to bring HRs and TRs up to par as well.
Again: CW should not top damage just because they are CWs. The damage, given proper spec&gear, should be dictated by player skill, if they are a DPS class.
And I'm not nearly as DPS horny as my post sounds. I have played a long while with suboptimal hybrid spec just because I wanted to do decently in PvP as well. Now I am full PvP spec and damage is even lower, which is OK, it was my decision, hope the devs are smart enough to give us dual spec already.
But I like to know that the class has the possibility to be best damage, if properly played, geared&specced. It goes back to my raiding days, and I doubt this mentality will ever change.
Well, there IS such thing as specs for classes, which emphasize one are over the other. You could have a path that is "Heavy AoE with some control along the way" and other that is "Heavy control with some DPS along the way". Also you could, gasp, I don't know, the option to have two different specs you could switch to at the beginning of the dungeon. Clever idea I came up with uh?
Not all the wizards need to be the same. Variety, as alien and aberrant this concept seems to be to the devs, is a good thing.
I disagree with this, we did CN 4/4 with 1 CW *Taja Fury*, 1 DC, and 3 GWFs without a single problem, full clear (on way to bosses not going sideways or treasure rooms ofc) ~30 min to get to Draco and 4 min kill. GWF's all used Roar and aoed the adds along with dragon. (group comp in detail: Taja on CW, Pum on DC, Cupcake GWF, Rockphaser GWF, Amelyn GWF, all 3 GWF destroyer, rockphaser IV, cupcake and myself SM). May not be the fastest nor the safest (it was, Taja's a beast on CW as far as control goes) from all possible variations, but we had a lot of fun and never encountered a problem or brick wall which a 2nd or 3rd CW would help lift.
Happy adventuring everyone!
i think you used the wrong word here, you can already see videos of draco being killed without CWs, heck theres even a video of a TR soloing it!
Please reread my comments for the whole context, not just the parts that alarm you. The *rewards* would be rebalanced for 24/7 availability - meaning if you make a timed event (such as a skirmish) available 24/7 - then adjust the rewards to match, so that the same reward you can earn in thirty minutes during a timed event will take you 300-minutes or something.
COMPREHENSION is your friend, friend.
As far as making other classes more valuable, I'd propose similar changes that I've read here in the thread, not necessarily a nerf to anyone, so much as using the paragon paths to create more defined roles.
For example, a GWF's paragon paths should be DPS focused or tank focused, and a CW's paths should be control focused, or DPS focused.
It would be fantastic if, after I cast ArcSing on a group of mobs, the best follow up for the group wasn't me casting Steal Time and Shard, thus spreading the mobs out. If I was controlling, and depending on others to burn the mobs down, I could focus on grouping them together and keeping them that way, while my party companions did the bulk of the damage.
Combinations of classes should work well together. A GF and a TR team up should be deadly to single targets (with the GF holding the target's focus and the TR backstabbing it to death), a CW controlling mobs with a GWF laying waste to them, a DC providing the heals and a TR acting as support DPS where needed and keeping the DC safe should a stray mob or two attempt to stop him from keeping the party alive.
Yes, that's 6 party members, and if you run with one of each, you SHOULD have 6 party members in an Epic dungeon run as an added bonus. Parties should have a Tank, a Healer, a Controller, and 2-3 DPS slots.
Anyone have tips on beating decent GWFs with an HR? I can basically take anyone down, even guardian types. The sword fighter is another matter. The CC, the charge...really tough.
As folks have pointed out the problem is dungeon design. You create add heavy dungeons and folks will want the best way to deal with them.
What they could do is give bosses weaknesses that specific class skills can take advantage of. It still doesn't deal with the add issue, but at least it might give groups incentives to bring a mix of classes.
A great fix someone suggested is give every enemy specific resistance against different types of damage, e.g. divine, arcane. piercing, slashing, etc. Then these resistances could be tweaked as necessary.....
Redesigning dungeons without changing the debuff mechanics will still make the CWs kings of any kind of content, because they are the best debuffers. On the other hand, debuffs diminishing returns (with a hard cap, something around 1.5x damage at most) and selective reduction of some AoE spells damage (shard of endless avalanche and sudden storm) will likely not affect the low GS teams or pugs, who rarely have more than one or two optimized players using cookie cutter builds.
That still doesn't fix anything. Sub par classes would still be subpar. They need to make the other classes more desirable.
The carrot is always better than the stick.
This?
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?600491-How-to-Fix-Wizards&p=7195581&viewfull=1#post7195581