willsommersMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 103
edited February 2014
. CW is the magic DPS class
Except, it's not a DPS class any more than a GF or DC. And honestly it should have similar damage output to those two classes. It's a control wizard - hence control. Warlock will be striker magic user.
You identified the problem but your solution isn't ideal. I'd like to see other areas of gameplay that are more rewarding to take the pressure off of dungeons a bit.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
Good points all around team guys. I admit i scan a bit when there are 3-4 pages since my last post, so forgive me if I am missing the details.
Maybe i am being an extreme optimist in my hopes for well designed encounters in T3 dungeons, which (if it happens at all) won't happen for a long time. I certainly see this as a long term design issues. I don't see how a GF/TR is optimal when the pull is say, 2 red wizards, 2 battle wights, whight commander, 7 archers, 15 zombies, and god knows how many other trash mobs. When I play my TR in this situation, i obviously fight the whight commander, WR through sing, smoke bomb, and drop DF in stealth into him.
Like Fade, TR was my first class, and I am sad they have been nerfed into obvlivion. I think after tenancity, TR will be a permastealth, backcapping, annoyance, and sub optimal in all other situations. They are even nerfing my super burst build (which is so much fun in PvP). It makes me sad.
I think we also have to understand how mypoic we all are. Fade, Persephone, and I are all around 16k on our mains, have good guilds, large networks, and basically never PuG anything except with our experinced, geared, friends. How we run dungeons is likely drastically different from how 99% of the player base runs things, and we don't know what the rest of the population looks like. When we propose changes we also must think about how it effect the whole population, not just our 16k + 5 epic pets + great specs + lots of experience + excellent teamwork parties. This is normal to us, but hardly average.
And Pab - i'm not surprised you guys won, as I think that's a really excellent group of players But 3 excellent GWF, really good DC, and an experinced CW, right? What's the average GS of that party?
I think when i said CN requires 2 CW i should have said "requires for most" XD. That's my mistake. I am actually quite sure I could 1 CW that fight the way Taja did, but i can always find a second good CW to come along with us.
Even though I really think TR and GF need some serious love - They can still be useful in the right situation, they are awesome in MC. Just when we are all here in late endgame, we like to pull 3-4 encounters and blow it all up, but with all the gear and experience we have in teams like that, shouldn't we be blowing it all up? I don't think at 16k party should struggle anywhere.
I think that as long as the dungeons consist mainly of hundreds of enemies at once, it'll be hard for classes focused on single enemies to really shine.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
I think that as long as the dungeons consist mainly of hundreds of enemies at once, it'll be hard for classes focused on single enemies to really shine.
It depends on what you mean by "really shine". If they focus on the elites, bosses etc., and make the tougher fights easer overall, they've done their job. If you're looking for them to be top of some DPS chart and dismayed because the AOE guys are consistently at the top, well, stop looking at the dang DPS window, because the real test is how smooth the run went, not who did the most DPS.
If the damage a TR does to a single target was much higher than the damage a CW does to a single target then it could work, but I feel like currently they aren't different enough to actually matter.
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sean99999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That is a good different perspective on fixing the problem. Perhaps we could also consider different classes with special buffs to the team, non-stackable. IE: GF/GWF boosts POW+20%, DC/CW boosts REC+20%, HR/TR boosts crit+20%. That way we will encourage each team to have at least one melee, one caster, one leather. Hmm...
If the damage a TR does to a single target was much higher than the damage a CW does to a single target then it could work, but I feel like currently they aren't different enough to actually matter.
Yup as it is with the dd system the main thing is speed. So lets go thru an example here about the problem with single target vs aoe.
Lets say their are 15 fights on the way to a boss each lasting 1 min as a baseline. The boss fight is 10 mins just so we can use nice round numbers.
A tr will speed up a boss fight by say 20% (probably less than this but making numbers up)
A cw will speed up a all other fights by 20% (probably more than this)
tr run time = 23 mins or 1380 secs
cw run time = 22 mins or 1320 secs
Now most bosses don't take that long, and I've probably grossly overstated how much tr's improve time on as the difference really isn't that big, but it gives you a rough idea of the problem since time is the main concern.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited February 2014
Yeah, but if you boosted their dingle target DPS, that difference is minimized, especially over the course of a full run with multiple boss fights and elite mobs along the way.
Still, I think I like my idea up above. I kind of like Sean's idea as a back up, though I wouldn't go so far as to make it a 20% boost, maybe 5-10% max.
DC - Recovery
CW - Life Steal
TR - Crit
GF - Defense
GWF - Power
HR - Combat Advantage Damage?
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
TR single target is what, 30% of what it was initially, due to several major nerfs (deadly momentum, dot normalization, lurkers, and multiple changes to power effectiveness)
Tr dmg will stay weak until pvp and pve are completely seperated. Not sure if tenacity is enough, atleast not in its current form. Until then tr will stay in a bad place for pve and pigeon holed into pvp only class. About the only bone the devs could toss tr is upping their aoe, removing target cap limitations on what little aoe tr's have, etc.
TR single target is what, 30% of what it was initially, due to several major nerfs (deadly momentum, dot normalization, lurkers, and multiple changes to power effectiveness)
Tr dmg will stay weak until pvp and pve are completely seperated. Not sure if tenacity is enough, atleast not in its current form. Until then tr will stay in a bad place for pve and pigeon holed into pvp only class. About the only bone the devs could toss tr is upping their aoe, removing target cap limitations on what little aoe tr's have, etc.
true story, tr was sent down the gutter in mod 1 but it still was best single target then because gwf was in an even worse spot. once they fixed him in mod 2, trs are just pointless coz a gwf can do just as much single target much better aoe and tank better.
The other thing that made trs desireable were their runs... and that was fixed too.
They should acytually take back mod 1s changes on him so he is a beast in single target again for it to be desired.... but then the pvp QQ would start all over.
edit: cleaning up my brain <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
The other thing that made trs desireable were their runs... and that was fixed too.
wait...... are you complaining about the exploit fixes? :rolleyes: el-oh-el......
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
TR nerfs were long before mod 2, reversing mod 2 does nothing for TR.
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willsommersMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 103
edited February 2014
TR single target is what, 30% of what it was initially, due to several major nerfs
At best, and don't forget shocking execution which had it's niche on boss fights. TR was nerfed, as others have said, early in the game due to massive Q.Q about stealth cloud of steel killing. OMG, single target class doing single target damage- must destroy class!
Now we're left with invincible mode GWFs in PVE/PVP doing more damage than single target TR on boss, and CWs able to perma-control mobs and do more AOE damage than anyone. The other classes are utter trash compared to CW/GWF right now. Most places you don't even need a DC unless you screw up somehow or want to save a few silver on potion and finish the dungeon slower.
wait...... are you complaining about the exploit fixes? :rolleyes: el-oh-el......
el oh el ur *** off all u want as im not complaining, im stating a fact, as there is more people interested in exploiting than running legit in this game.
TR nerfs were long before mod 2, reversing mod 2 does nothing for TR.
lurkers nerf? flurry bleed normalization? power effectiveness in all atwills/encounters?
all those are mod 1 nerfs, go look at the patch notes. I dont have too coz i was playing tr b4 then.
yeah deadly momentum and SE were nerefed b4 mod 1.
edit:
Lol brain farted, when i was saying mod 2 i meant mod 1 XD.
el oh el ur *** off all u want as im not complaining, im stating a fact, as there is more people interested in exploiting than running legit in this game.
lurkers nerf? flurry bleed normalization? power effectiveness in all atwills/encounters?
all those are mod 1 nerfs, go look at the patch notes. I dont have too coz i was playing tr b4 then.
yeah deadly momentum and SE were nerefed b4 mod 1.
edit:
Lol brain farted, when i was saying mod 2 i meant mod 1 XD.
Comments
Except, it's not a DPS class any more than a GF or DC. And honestly it should have similar damage output to those two classes. It's a control wizard - hence control. Warlock will be striker magic user.
Maybe i am being an extreme optimist in my hopes for well designed encounters in T3 dungeons, which (if it happens at all) won't happen for a long time. I certainly see this as a long term design issues. I don't see how a GF/TR is optimal when the pull is say, 2 red wizards, 2 battle wights, whight commander, 7 archers, 15 zombies, and god knows how many other trash mobs. When I play my TR in this situation, i obviously fight the whight commander, WR through sing, smoke bomb, and drop DF in stealth into him.
Like Fade, TR was my first class, and I am sad they have been nerfed into obvlivion. I think after tenancity, TR will be a permastealth, backcapping, annoyance, and sub optimal in all other situations. They are even nerfing my super burst build (which is so much fun in PvP). It makes me sad.
I think we also have to understand how mypoic we all are. Fade, Persephone, and I are all around 16k on our mains, have good guilds, large networks, and basically never PuG anything except with our experinced, geared, friends. How we run dungeons is likely drastically different from how 99% of the player base runs things, and we don't know what the rest of the population looks like. When we propose changes we also must think about how it effect the whole population, not just our 16k + 5 epic pets + great specs + lots of experience + excellent teamwork parties. This is normal to us, but hardly average.
And Pab - i'm not surprised you guys won, as I think that's a really excellent group of players
I think when i said CN requires 2 CW i should have said "requires for most" XD. That's my mistake. I am actually quite sure I could 1 CW that fight the way Taja did, but i can always find a second good CW to come along with us.
Even though I really think TR and GF need some serious love - They can still be useful in the right situation, they are awesome in MC. Just when we are all here in late endgame, we like to pull 3-4 encounters and blow it all up, but with all the gear and experience we have in teams like that, shouldn't we be blowing it all up? I don't think at 16k party should struggle anywhere.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
It depends on what you mean by "really shine". If they focus on the elites, bosses etc., and make the tougher fights easer overall, they've done their job. If you're looking for them to be top of some DPS chart and dismayed because the AOE guys are consistently at the top, well, stop looking at the dang DPS window, because the real test is how smooth the run went, not who did the most DPS.
That is a good different perspective on fixing the problem. Perhaps we could also consider different classes with special buffs to the team, non-stackable. IE: GF/GWF boosts POW+20%, DC/CW boosts REC+20%, HR/TR boosts crit+20%. That way we will encourage each team to have at least one melee, one caster, one leather. Hmm...
Yup as it is with the dd system the main thing is speed. So lets go thru an example here about the problem with single target vs aoe.
Lets say their are 15 fights on the way to a boss each lasting 1 min as a baseline. The boss fight is 10 mins just so we can use nice round numbers.
A tr will speed up a boss fight by say 20% (probably less than this but making numbers up)
A cw will speed up a all other fights by 20% (probably more than this)
tr run time = 23 mins or 1380 secs
cw run time = 22 mins or 1320 secs
Now most bosses don't take that long, and I've probably grossly overstated how much tr's improve time on as the difference really isn't that big, but it gives you a rough idea of the problem since time is the main concern.
Still, I think I like my idea up above. I kind of like Sean's idea as a back up, though I wouldn't go so far as to make it a 20% boost, maybe 5-10% max.
DC - Recovery
CW - Life Steal
TR - Crit
GF - Defense
GWF - Power
HR - Combat Advantage Damage?
Tr dmg will stay weak until pvp and pve are completely seperated. Not sure if tenacity is enough, atleast not in its current form. Until then tr will stay in a bad place for pve and pigeon holed into pvp only class. About the only bone the devs could toss tr is upping their aoe, removing target cap limitations on what little aoe tr's have, etc.
true story, tr was sent down the gutter in mod 1 but it still was best single target then because gwf was in an even worse spot. once they fixed him in mod 2, trs are just pointless coz a gwf can do just as much single target much better aoe and tank better.
The other thing that made trs desireable were their runs... and that was fixed too.
They should acytually take back mod 1s changes on him so he is a beast in single target again for it to be desired.... but then the pvp QQ would start all over.
edit: cleaning up my brain <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
wait...... are you complaining about the exploit fixes? :rolleyes: el-oh-el......
At best, and don't forget shocking execution which had it's niche on boss fights. TR was nerfed, as others have said, early in the game due to massive Q.Q about stealth cloud of steel killing. OMG, single target class doing single target damage- must destroy class!
Now we're left with invincible mode GWFs in PVE/PVP doing more damage than single target TR on boss, and CWs able to perma-control mobs and do more AOE damage than anyone. The other classes are utter trash compared to CW/GWF right now. Most places you don't even need a DC unless you screw up somehow or want to save a few silver on potion and finish the dungeon slower.
el oh el ur *** off all u want as im not complaining, im stating a fact, as there is more people interested in exploiting than running legit in this game.
lurkers nerf? flurry bleed normalization? power effectiveness in all atwills/encounters?
all those are mod 1 nerfs, go look at the patch notes. I dont have too coz i was playing tr b4 then.
yeah deadly momentum and SE were nerefed b4 mod 1.
edit:
Lol brain farted, when i was saying mod 2 i meant mod 1 XD.
so easy..........