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The wanted Class problem - a different perspective and possible solution.
sean99999
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Hey Folks,
Almost every game suffers from a Flavour of the month class problem. We can see that happening in Neverwinter. After a certain patch, class X is more desirable.Yet, after a subsequent patch, class X becomes useless and we should play class Y to stay competitive.
I have a proposal that will reduce this effect significantly. It has very little to do with nerfing class X, or buffing class Y.
Currently, Dungeon delves lasts 60 minutes, and Gauntlgrym(dungeon) lasts 30 minutes. The players are allowed to repeat these dungeons as many times as they can, based on speed. This rewards the people who min-max and rush through the dungeons.
It does not matter if your class makes the content easier and smoother to play. It matters little how well you tank, or how many buffs and heals you can bring to the table. If your class clears the content slower in a team, then it means you can only clear GG 2-3 times, while the team who min-maxes clears GG 5 times.
Therefore, the solution is obvious. If we reduce the incentive for speed, then other classes who brings a smoother game experience will be more competitive. Not only will the game will be less stressful to play, it will be more enjoyable and draw in a bigger casual crowd.
How do we reduce the incentive for speed? There must be a daily/weekly limit to the amount of times a character can enter GG or DD.
With this, we shift the focus of the game away from completion speed.
I'll love to hear your well-argued thoughts on this.
Almost every game suffers from a Flavour of the month class problem. We can see that happening in Neverwinter. After a certain patch, class X is more desirable.Yet, after a subsequent patch, class X becomes useless and we should play class Y to stay competitive.
I have a proposal that will reduce this effect significantly. It has very little to do with nerfing class X, or buffing class Y.
Currently, Dungeon delves lasts 60 minutes, and Gauntlgrym(dungeon) lasts 30 minutes. The players are allowed to repeat these dungeons as many times as they can, based on speed. This rewards the people who min-max and rush through the dungeons.
It does not matter if your class makes the content easier and smoother to play. It matters little how well you tank, or how many buffs and heals you can bring to the table. If your class clears the content slower in a team, then it means you can only clear GG 2-3 times, while the team who min-maxes clears GG 5 times.
Therefore, the solution is obvious. If we reduce the incentive for speed, then other classes who brings a smoother game experience will be more competitive. Not only will the game will be less stressful to play, it will be more enjoyable and draw in a bigger casual crowd.
How do we reduce the incentive for speed? There must be a daily/weekly limit to the amount of times a character can enter GG or DD.
With this, we shift the focus of the game away from completion speed.
I'll love to hear your well-argued thoughts on this.
Post edited by sean99999 on
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As for the idea itself I'd say - no. Limiting dungeons amount you can run per week is almost always a bad idea and for sure its a bad idea in this case. I'd say each class should have a role in a dungeon, without which the dungeon will be still possible to clear, but harder/slower.
...because they are almost the only thing to do in this game.
The problem doesn't lie with the class, but with the dungeon design. All epic dungeons and bosses are full of adds and trash mobs. Most classes have few if any AoE damage, and next to no AoE control, so, CWs are a must, or you just waste time.
Doing epics with or without a CW makes the difference between a 30 minute run or a hour and a half one, because adds.
I've never liked the timed events throughout the day. It feels like developers prepare for defeat from the very beginning, and plan to never have a large population. Most of them are ok in this game, but restricting dungeons to a couple hours a day is....just....bad design. So bad. I think the games population will rise, players will enjoy it more, and play longer and likely be willing to spend more money if they aren't restricted to these horrible timeframes. Dungeons are a huge part of the game to be so restricted. Un-restrict!
Some may argue that they do run dungeons outside of DD, and occasionally get gear. But on my 2 60's so far, I have not gotten a single piece of usable gear for either toon from a boss drop. Sure I can sell the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> drops for a little bit of AD, but I think most would agree, it's more enjoyable when you down a boss and it drops something you're actually going to use! I certainly always enjoyed that more in other games.
Perhaps even leaving in DD and GG timeframes, but adding a daily key for each chest that could be used at any time during the day. Gauntlgrym might need some changes with that idea, but I'm sure there's a way to make it work without taking away the incentive to participate in GG.
Anyway what I'm saying is that it's the content being restricted to those few hours a day that causes speed to be the most important factor. Find a way to remove those restrictions and that will likely go away, to an extent.
I second this wholehearthedly. Give me a key, let me do the dungeon whenever I like. the DD hours shift continously, collide with RL and make you rush once you get in, create stress when looking for party in order to manage to get in.
It's a poor mechanic that encourages speed runs, farming and exploiting because of the time limit.
Currently I would like to go one step further by establishing a specific nature of interaction . We would have taken 3 classes as dps : gwf / rogue / ranger . And 3 class leader - cw / dc / gf . But how would this interaction ?
Let me as an example gwf and cw . During the singularity , the gwf receives a bonus of 10 % damage to the use of encounters. On the other hand, cw receives a compatible percentage of action Points to gwf generated in this time (included IBS ) . If the thing is too " powerful " or undemocratic , this interaction would be repeated among all classes in the sense that each leader would have a daily that grant extra damage in exchange for extra ap for dps . There seems to me something that requires great meditation on balancing classes .
Dungeons:
Ok , but I'm a ranger 2983476928k and have done everything . Well , the idea I have, and it would be good to move the game economy , would create "impossible dungeons ." What's this ? By completing particular collection , you would open the corresponding an existing dungeon , but a VERY difficult level . Archers with perfect vorpal , melees with regen builds, etc. . would be fun for the whole family
So what happens when you have used your quota up and you aren't the kind of person who likes to play with lots of alts? just stand about and do nothing till next week , yeah oooooookayyyy but no thanks.
Not quite true. While in PvE CWs are by far the most useful and in demand class in PvP the most powerful class combination seems to vary almost every other major patch.
What about a system where the first X runs a week gives you access to better bonuses.
So any group that has all different classes gets lets say 10% higher drop rate!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
People have been saying that CWs will be balanced compared to other classes in PvE since Open Beta and they are still, just as they have always been, by far the most in demand class for endgame dungeons.
I think a diversified class composition bonus would be a simpler, not to mention much faster way, of making non-FOTG classes in demand for endgame dungeons. Right now three classes - GF, TR and HR are pretty much pariahs, and even the DC and GWF aren't essential.
I'd like to see different mechanics in the game. Such as less mobs of mindless trash and such. Instead have enemies with different mechanics. Have some that go through phases, immune to control for a time, immune to physical damage for a time, immune to arcane/chill/fire/cold-based/ attacks for a bit, or something. This could aid in making dungeons need a diverse party.
I agree with getting rid of the DD event altogether. Just have the bosses drops items and the chest available at the end without the need for a 'special' time frame for all of this to occur.
Branch Lead
unnerf cw ap gain
buff cw CC
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Well guess what? I find the current system very limiting and it's probable this is opinion of many people. I'm all for removing the time component from the event, it would allow to:
- run the dungeon at any time, making it possible to actually run it more
- remove all that rushing bollocks which increase exploiting and force certain pary compositions, decreasing the fun for everybody but a chose few
People won't be able to farm content as much? Oh well, how terrible, I almost feel for them. Almost.
That actually would get me into the dungeons more as I could choose when to do the runs. Everybody wins.
In every MMO I played people always were searching for easy ways to complete repetitive content. Nothing special in NW, it's just a lot more simple due to enormous amount of bugs.
Btw i said what was the solution to DD event almost a year ago, when i really said it was a stupid and limiting idea for the future of the game, just increase the % of the set drops (make it drop a set piece 20% of the time, so people will need an avg of 30ish runs to get his piece, and the AH would increase enough to reduce prices but not enough to be flooded) give players a daily delve key to increase that chance further, and make every dungeon drop at 1% (like artifacts in MC/VT) unique rewards relative to that dung, like a Red Wyrmling mount in Karrundax or a winter wolf in FH that is significantly better companion than the regular purples.
PEople will run dungeons all day long.
I also advocate eliminating the DD event, having the chest unlock at all times but check to make sure that all chest drops are BOP and all boss drops are BOE. Currently there are boss drops (HP boots, various junk purples) that are BOP and a great number of the ring neck and waist pieces are coded as either BOE or BOP regardless if they come from the chest or the boss.
less trash more control resistant mobs add a life-steal and regen nerf and your starting to be in business!!
I don't think there's anything wrong with desirable classes and builds (or flavor of the month classes and builds), but I do feel there's something wrong when they're created by developer patches (aka Cryptic's idea of flavor of the month classes and builds). In an ideal game the players control the flow of the flavor of the month and the developers take a backseat (where those dirty coders belong... I code so I can make that joke
For example, Build A is broken and overpowered. There is literally nothing any other build can do that can't be done better than build A. So the developers apply a light buff to monsters making them more resistant to some of build A's effects or a light nerf to Build A to make it less powerful. From that, Build B is created and becomes the new flavor. Then someone gets the bright idea for Build C. -insert continuous chain here with light nerfs and buffs strategically applied-.
Now for your suggestion directly now that I've cleared up the problems I have with your reasoning behind it (and the ocd I'm currently not taking meds for). I like the basic desire behind your suggestion, making things more fair for people who actually want to enjoy the dungeon and take their time with it or for people who have a build that is designed to outlast and tank rather than dart through. I just don't like how you suggest going about it. A weekly or daily limit isn't going to make people happy or keep GG active, in fact it'll probably kill GG and DD to an extent because once everyone's hit their cap they can't play again.
What I'd suggest instead is something along these lines:
For Dungeon Delver-
When DD is active, players can talk to an NPC to get 2 dungeon delver keys added to their inventory. They can do this only once per event (and only during the event) but can use the keys outside of the event as well. In other words all the event will do is give players an hour to go see the NPC and get the keys, then they can either stock up on them and run DD all at once or use them immediately. This removes the time aspect of DD and doesn't set a "direct" limitation on players. Sometimes an indirect limit is far better than a direct one.
For Gauntylgrim-
When a player completes both aspects of GG his scores are added up and he's awarded a certain number of "Crypt Keys" based on performance in PvP or PvE (or "Dwarven Crypt Key" if his team won which allows access to either dungeon). Again, like DD, you can complete the dungeon whenever you like as long as you have the keys for it. This both makes it so that your aren't restricted by time but you also can't sit there afk after turning in one log or you won't get half the real reward.
Both of these indirect limits on participation actually give players more freedom than the current system
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Every day you can pick up one Dungeon Chest Key for free. You can buy more if you want.
During the Dungeon Delve event, the chest can be opened without any keys, and runs as normal.
If people want to keep speed running DDs, they can. If people want to run a dungeon or two when they have time each day, they can. If they want to buy more keys to run it some more one night, they can.
But don't confuse the issue of elitists not bring certain classes, with people being able to run dungeon delves. It's two separate issues.
I concur.. did lair yesterday with no CWs. what a pita without one, most of these dungeons just have too many adds, they should buff up bosses by double and remove adds by half at least if not more on most of these fights, this would start balancing out the game without doing much of anything else to the classes.
I too have real life issues such as work/family and other responsibilities I limit my play time to around a hour a day, I can usually do a DD delve 2-3 times a week, in other games not much of a issue, just find people in your time zones who you can run with, here its a major issue as I may not be on during a DD hour and If im pugging it, who knows if its going to get completed.
Also.. add a screen shot showing mitigated damage and buffed damage by individual, doesn't matter if your running plaguefire with high prophet and all your other buffs ect, since groups dont have a clue what your doing behind the scene. At least you can start the argument that X # of damage was provided because of my class, so they could see value besides just stacking another CW.