Maybe its becoming less Heal oriented DC wanted, and buff oriented DC required. Which personally is nice because healing single targets in a mess of mobs/companions/ and party members is a mess...even using CTRL to lock on has issues in all that mess. So if I can bring other skills nowadays then healing word, like more buffs or debuffs...or heck even dmg then im all for it.
Hallowed ground-Divine shield-Prophecy for debuff-Glow for additional def debuff, you now have a dmg buff/def buff/heal (if spec'ed mid tier) regen from divine, and 2 def debuffs...Yeah id rather have all that in a group then say a 3rd CW any day...not to mention astral shield...I dont care if you have a ton of lifesteal that still comes in handy.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited January 2014
I skimmed through this thread again, and I am a bit sad to see DCs in this spot too, but most of you caught on that healing is not the primary role in high end groups, and buff/debuff is more important. Part of the reason i went AC/Virt instead of DO/faithful is that my healing was so redundant i felt it was being wasted.
As for 3 man draco, I know 10-15 CWs who have done it (myself included), and while it is a pain it is doable.
I have also seen (from 50% or more)
2CW/HR
2CW/GWF
2CW/DC
and I heard of 2CW (two man draco).
That said 3-man draco is more to prove you can do it rather than being efficient. 4-5 man is reliable. I think for 5 man, if you have 2 good CWs and 3 good anything else you can do fine. For four man, I think 2CW/DC/GWF or TR works really well.
That said, we did a 2CW/2DC/GWF CN, and that allowed the DC to do more buff and debuff and the clear time was pretty good - not as fast as the 4CW/GWF time, but with a DC in the group, the times are a bit slower, but there is a low chance of wiping.
So my thought here is that as the skill and gear level goes down, the usefulness of a DC goes up, and the more important healing can be.
That said, I don't mind running with a DC, it's just no longer necessary. Seems the only necessary class is CW... which i am not that happy about... but as long as they make mountains of trash to kill we will take mountains of control to kill them with.
I disagree going solid debuffing in pvp... the tenacity stats from new divine herald set will boost our survival ability by more cc resist. If we only take the 2 new weapons to get 2 piece set eff and abandon other 4 piece's tenacity for High Prophet set, i doubt we are the first one to be bursted down, even cw with full tenacity set will do better than us. A DC that dies before enemies means nothing, especially all your debuffs, buffs, Astral Shield, HG will disappear the moment u die.
Ten seconds is generally long enough that you could constantly have it up. But yeah, it's so easy to reach the soft cap on most stats that it isn't game-changing.
Well you can have LS up 90% of the time with ease so that's nice, and as a DO you're 100% going to run SB for buffing foresight so it's just convienient, you get all those added stats based off of a proc from a spell already in your rotation. That's just good synergry. Also, is there really anything better to grab? Granted some of those stats are wasted, primarily the recovery, but even when overcapping crit rating you still gain crit% which is good for everybody and buffing people's defense is always good. Primarily though, buffing my team for upwards of 1500 power almost constantly is pretty decent.
Honestly I think HW is awful and still many players use that HAMSTER. Let him use what he wants and it is subjective taste. We even have a minority that think AS sucks(I don't and I like AS).
You can think what you want. But I don't see how a spell you can cast 6 times in under 10 seconds can be bad, especially when I can watch it crit for 16k+ and it procs just about every proc possible for a DC. That's even with the crappy targeting system in this game. I've never heard any Cleric say that AS sucks but there are some of us who feel that the game play revolves too much around using AS and therefore limits a Clerics versatility.
Well you can have LS up 90% of the time with ease so that's nice, and as a DO you're 100% going to run SB for buffing foresight so it's just convienient, you get all those added stats based off of a proc from a spell already in your rotation. That's just good synergry. Also, is there really anything better to grab? Granted some of those stats are wasted, primarily the recovery, but even when overcapping crit rating you still gain crit% which is good for everybody and buffing people's defense is always good. Primarily though, buffing my team for upwards of 1500 power almost constantly is pretty decent.
You can think what you want. But I don't see how a spell you can cast 6 times in under 10 seconds can be bad, especially when I can watch it crit for 16k+ and it procs just about every proc possible for a DC. That's even with the crappy targeting system in this game. I've never heard any Cleric say that AS sucks but there are some of us who feel that the game play revolves too much around using AS and therefore limits a Clerics versatility.
Linked Spirit seems to be more popular with Faithful builds since they have to put the points somewhere, anyway. I don't include Linked Spirit in Righteous builds since there are better feats. The Power boost is probably the best thing about LS, but just to illustrate what it really means, consider that an increase of 1791 Power on DC translates to a 6.3% increase in minimum damage and a 5.5% increase in maximum damage (tooltip for Daunting Light). Good and worth using if the points aren't needed elsewhere, but not the earth-shaking difference that some DCs out there seem to think.
I didn't go down the list and test every single ability, so maybe there are variations, but my guess is that Power scales similarly across the board. I took a brief look at my CW and found that 204 Power made a difference of .06% at the max range, which is in line with what I'm seeing on my DC.
As for Healing Word, I'm part of the fan club. It provides great fire-and-forget healing, procs feats etc. like you stated, and generates bonus Divinity with Ethereal Boon on top of all that. I think most players who discount HW do so simply because they don't like having to aim it.
As for Healing Word, I'm part of the fan club. It provides great fire-and-forget healing, procs feats etc. like you stated, and generates bonus Divinity with Ethereal Boon on top of all that. I think most players who discount HW do so simply because they don't like having to aim it.
We should make an HW fan club thread!!! If I had to choose one healing spell I would take healing word. It is the only thing that allows us to "burst heal" and the regen ticks are so strong I once saved someone from dying to hand b/c I cast one before they got hit and the regen kept them alive by a sliver of HP... true miracle healer:)
Although span4iard I have to say I don't think HW can insta crit heal at 16k... It can tick up to 16k, what you should look at is in your logs it will say "your healing word has healed so and so for X amount" every few seconds. I think my highest ticks are around 3k with HW, and highest divinity heal would be 8.8k... 16k seems unlikely O.o
SCREENSHOTS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN
+1 for the HW club!! as for the future of cleric i dont like where its going but i think it can be easily be fixed. CC immune adds in boos fight and a lifesteal nerf would be a good start imo
Linked Spirit seems to be more popular with Faithful builds since they have to put the points somewhere, anyway. I don't include Linked Spirit in Righteous builds since there are better feats. The Power boost is probably the best thing about LS, but just to illustrate what it really means, consider that an increase of 1791 Power on DC translates to a 6.3% increase in minimum damage and a 5.5% increase in maximum damage (tooltip for Daunting Light). Good and worth using if the points aren't needed elsewhere, but not the earth-shaking difference that some DCs out there seem to think.
I didn't go down the list and test every single ability, so maybe there are variations, but my guess is that Power scales similarly across the board. I took a brief look at my CW and found that 204 Power made a difference of .06% at the max range, which is in line with what I'm seeing on my DC.
As for Healing Word, I'm part of the fan club. It provides great fire-and-forget healing, procs feats etc. like you stated, and generates bonus Divinity with Ethereal Boon on top of all that. I think most players who discount HW do so simply because they don't like having to aim it.
Agreed about LS. I'm not trying to say it's some perfect feat that hugely buffs everybody stats and then its just omg wtf ownage from there on...I'm aware that Power is probably the worst scaling stat of all of them (25=1 dmg) but more never hurts and yes it's more of a matter of taking this feat because I feel I don't have anything better. Although I actually have 25 points in faithful, mostly because I didn't know what else to get so I was like **** it, I'll take invigorated healing, freep passive healing...
So you run a righteous set up? I find that interesting since I feel the righteous feats are underpowered for PVE. I only have righteous rage, I could take ethereal boon but most of the time I don't need it, maybe I could get away with almost never using DF if I did have it, it would be nice for PVP too. Other than that I feel like Divine Advantage is a nice feat but hardly needed, restoration mastery is just junk, Warding shield...meh but then I hate BoH anyways and power of oppression while I've always found it interesting seems like it sounds better than it actually is. Healing Step is a great feat but it's hardly anything I need so I'd just be curious to know what you feel like you're getting from that tree?
Yeah I don't like targeting HW really either, but for some situations (a few boss fights is really the only thing I use it on these days) it's just by far the best option. But I do find it really annoying when I see somebody at 20% HP and I'm trying to find them in the mass of mobs so I can heal them. I finally find them and fire off a divine HW and in the meantime somebody else runs in front, who's at 90%, and takes the big burst heal, sigh
We should make an HW fan club thread!!! If I had to choose one healing spell I would take healing word. It is the only thing that allows us to "burst heal" and the regen ticks are so strong I once saved someone from dying to hand b/c I cast one before they got hit and the regen kept them alive by a sliver of HP... true miracle healer:)
Although span4iard I have to say I don't think HW can insta crit heal at 16k... It can tick up to 16k, what you should look at is in your logs it will say "your healing word has healed so and so for X amount" every few seconds. I think my highest ticks are around 3k with HW, and highest divinity heal would be 8.8k... 16k seems unlikely O.o
SCREENSHOTS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN
Haha fair enough. I know I've never crit a HW for 16k. I have a Vorpal not a Perfect Vorpal. But I've got a DC friend who's told me he crits HW for 16k...but maybe he meant the total amount healed. English isn't his first language so might of been something lost in translation. No screenie. Either way, I've healed people for like 70% of their HP before with a healing word. That's always nice.
I'm relatively new to the game (I've been playing for about two months), though not to the MMO genre, and my DC is relatively young (13.5k). I still ask many questions about gearing and theory-crafting, and so my perspective doesn't have the volume of endgame experience that many of you in this thread do. My guild has two people in it (the other is my girlfriend, who only does dailies and collects companions), so I don't have the luxury of calendared, competent group compositions on a regular basis. However, I have run and cleared everything other than VT (haven't tried it yet) multiple times. Another disclosure is that I only did PVP for the artifact, and rarely have done it since.
From where I am, I don't think the DC is in a bad spot. I usually rely on the LFG channel or friends list to find groups, though I am rather fastidious when it comes to selecting and composing groups. Almost every group I've been with has been quite happy to find a competent, decently geared DC. Most times if it's a LFG pug I receive a few friend requests after the run(s). Granted, this isn't at the level of two or three-manning Draco, but much of it is near-endgame content. The middle of the bell curve, where most players sit, is still very appreciative of the DC class and utilizes it regularly.
As I see it, this thread is divided between the usual "the sky is falling" belly-aching, more reasonable appraisals that compare the DC to the relative strength and necessity of other classes, and PVP perspective.
Two important concepts:
In a game with both PVE and PVP something--often times many things--will always be off-balance.
This isn't yet a mature game. Unlike an MMO like WoW, which came from an established gaming giant (Blizzard) and had regular revenue from subscriptions, this game probably has a still-growing revenue base; further development in free-to-plays comes when revenue increases to more predictable levels, much like League of Legends' early slow growth.
Those two things being said, nothing about the DC appears difficult to remedy. Put in a boss (or even an imposing trash mob) that does a targeted, aggro-or-proximity-based attack which can't be kited or dodged. Make it hit hard enough that the only thing that can survive it is a GF with at least half a guard meter standing in an astral shield. Suddenly these seemingly superfluous classes have a purpose again. Parties could then debate rotating their soul forges to take the hits while trying to DPS race the inevitability of someone taking a strike with it on cooldown or bringing a DC and GF. Risk/reward scenarios are not hard to construct, even with current abilities. Of course, that's an over-simplified scenario; it's also not too hard to see how a party-augmentation/leader class (DC) and traditional tank (GF) can be reintegrated into the meta of endgame dungeons. It seems accurate to say that a difficult situation is currently remedied by the "add more CWs" formula, and this isn't a pain just felt by DCs.
The game is still being fleshed out, and I don't see DCs (in PVE, at least) moving toward a more useless position--unless the game becomes more of an AoE round-up-and-smash fest than it already is, and most indications are that it's already on a trajectory away from that.
So you run a righteous set up? I find that interesting since I feel the righteous feats are underpowered for PVE. I only have righteous rage, I could take ethereal boon but most of the time I don't need it, maybe I could get away with almost never using DF if I did have it, it would be nice for PVP too. Other than that I feel like Divine Advantage is a nice feat but hardly needed, restoration mastery is just junk, Warding shield...meh but then I hate BoH anyways and power of oppression while I've always found it interesting seems like it sounds better than it actually is. Healing Step is a great feat but it's hardly anything I need so I'd just be curious to know what you feel like you're getting from that tree?
I find that Faithful provides the overall highest healing potential, but that Righteous allows for the best mobility and passive defense, which appeals to me for PvP (hard to imagine PvP without Healing Step) and works well for PvE.
- Divine Advantage is great because mobs deliberately attempt to flank players and benefit from Combat Advantage.
- Restoration Mastery is no longer part of the Righteous tree (good riddance). It's now Virtuous.
- Power of the Sun would be great for DOs. I'm AC, so not an option.
- Power of Oppression has utility for PvE as well; you aren't literally going to Astral Seal every single trash mob, but there's time to debuff quite a few targets if you use Seal as your At-Will spam and constantly change targets.
- Healing Step is the best thing about the whole tree and is worth it for the frequent temp HP and ridiculous stamina regen. Being able to absorb damage and dodge frequently allows for much better mobility and works well with the AC playstyle. I find myself skating around in PvE just to get a better angle to hit an Exaltation or a HW or to give Blessing of Battle's buff.
- Sovereign Justice is better than the 4th pip in Faithful, but nothing amazing. It's still a passive AoE heal on a low cooldown, so I keep the point in it.
If a DC deliberately tries to avoid aggro in PvE, never PvPs, and is never called on to serve as an initiator or as substitute tank for a boss fight (e.g. Hrimnir), then I'd probably recommend Faithful; if they like to take the lead in PvE, be in the middle of things, and have a better quality of life when they PvP, I typically recommend Righteous.
Edit: Totally forgot to mention Ethereal Boon. I don't slot Divine Fortune, and I use HW quite a bit, so this feat is great for maintaining Divinity.
I find that Faithful provides the overall highest healing potential, but that Righteous allows for the best mobility and passive defense, which appeals to me for PvP (hard to imagine PvP without Healing Step) and works well for PvE.
- Divine Advantage is great because mobs deliberately attempt to flank players and benefit from Combat Advantage.
- Restoration Mastery is no longer part of the Righteous tree (good riddance). It's now Virtuous.
- Power of the Sun would be great for DOs. I'm AC, so not an option.
- Power of Oppression has utility for PvE as well; you aren't literally going to Astral Seal every single trash mob, but there's time to debuff quite a few targets if you use Seal as your At-Will spam and constantly change targets.
- Healing Step is the best thing about the whole tree and is worth it for the frequent temp HP and ridiculous stamina regen. Being able to absorb damage and dodge frequently allows for much better mobility and works well with the AC playstyle. I find myself skating around in PvE just to get a better angle to hit an Exaltation or a HW or to give Blessing of Battle's buff.
- Sovereign Justice is better than the 4th pip in Faithful, but nothing amazing. It's still a passive AoE heal on a low cooldown, so I keep the point in it.
If a DC deliberately tries to avoid aggro in PvE, never PvPs, and is never called on to serve as an initiator or as substitute tank for a boss fight (e.g. Hrimnir), then I'd probably recommend Faithful; if they like to take the lead in PvE, be in the middle of things, and have a better quality of life when they PvP, I typically recommend Righteous.
Edit: Totally forgot to mention Ethereal Boon. I don't slot Divine Fortune, and I use HW quite a bit, so this feat is great for maintaining Divinity.
Ok so it sounds like the benefits are mostly PVP oriented. Fair enough. I can't be bothered to spec specifically for PVP in this game, at least not currently, maybe, if there was more diversity in terms of types of pvp or maps and at least some semblance of parity and balance, then I'd consider it. Currently when I pvp i just toss on some blue regen gear and rings/belts to buff my HP/Deflect. Roll around with 3k Def, 1.3 deflect, 1.3k regen. I find it to be pretty meh but it is what it is, better than nothing I guess. Sometimes I'll just roll with the MH set anyways and whatever it's good enough. As people have covered many times pvp is so stomp/be stomped that often times it doesn't matter what my gear is.
That being said thanks for that detailed look of why you're using what you are. Obviously righteous rage is a must and ethereal is just more free divinity which isn't bad and can be vital in PVP. I do really like divine advantage as a feat, and maybe it has better PVE usage than I had thought, also I've always felt you don't need 5 points in this feat, that 3 would probably be plenty. So they moved Power of the sun to righteous? I hadn't even noticed. That's interesting. Back in the day I'd always thought that running both that and power of oppression could be pretty interesting. But then you'd really have to focus on at-will spam and I honestly don't really miss my days of BotS/Aseal (I am still DO) and I prefer to spam sacred flame when I can for better DP generation and it puts out more dmg plus the small bits of temp HP. I'm not sure either of those is great on the PVE side of things but dotting up another person in PVP with both of them could b real nice (-10% dmg output and -5% crit chance) I also don't use BotS in PVP (just for soloing mostly). Healing step is amazing, no doubt. And honestly, it sounds like you and me may have a similar play style for both PVE/PVP. I like to get in the middle of everything and cast and spam away as much as possible, just slide to avoid the nasty red circles. Absorbing damage doesn't worry me and tbh at least for PVE with 2k defense I don't seem to really have any issues and I've got enough stamina regen it seems (19 str + sharandar final boon, don't think there's anything else that I have that increases that). I don't usually try to deliberatly avoid agro or anything (I have burning guidance or whatever it's called) but even so I'm usually in the bottom 3 for dmg taken. Obviously for PVP I could never have enough stamina meter haha.
How much does sovereign justice actually heal for? and what's the CD on the proc? You said it's low...10, 20s?
Anyways, as I've said previously a lot of the faithful stuff I don't find necesary but I do really like moontouched so I've always wanted to keep at least 20 points there. Really the only thing I need as DO though is benefit of foresight. LS is just a nice extra plus that synergizes perfectly with what I already use so can't say no and I have invigorated healing because it's easy and free. But the faithful tree does get kinda boring, maybe it's time to switch it up or give AC a go again. If only respecs were less expensive
Ok so it sounds like the benefits are mostly PVP oriented. Fair enough. I can't be bothered to spec specifically for PVP in this game, at least not currently, maybe, if there was more diversity in terms of types of pvp or maps and at least some semblance of parity and balance, then I'd consider it. Currently when I pvp i just toss on some blue regen gear and rings/belts to buff my HP/Deflect. Roll around with 3k Def, 1.3 deflect, 1.3k regen. I find it to be pretty meh but it is what it is, better than nothing I guess. Sometimes I'll just roll with the MH set anyways and whatever it's good enough. As people have covered many times pvp is so stomp/be stomped that often times it doesn't matter what my gear is.
That being said thanks for that detailed look of why you're using what you are. Obviously righteous rage is a must and ethereal is just more free divinity which isn't bad and can be vital in PVP. I do really like divine advantage as a feat, and maybe it has better PVE usage than I had thought, also I've always felt you don't need 5 points in this feat, that 3 would probably be plenty. So they moved Power of the sun to righteous? I hadn't even noticed. That's interesting. Back in the day I'd always thought that running both that and power of oppression could be pretty interesting. But then you'd really have to focus on at-will spam and I honestly don't really miss my days of BotS/Aseal (I am still DO) and I prefer to spam sacred flame when I can for better DP generation and it puts out more dmg plus the small bits of temp HP. I'm not sure either of those is great on the PVE side of things but dotting up another person in PVP with both of them could b real nice (-10% dmg output and -5% crit chance) I also don't use BotS in PVP (just for soloing mostly). Healing step is amazing, no doubt. And honestly, it sounds like you and me may have a similar play style for both PVE/PVP. I like to get in the middle of everything and cast and spam away as much as possible, just slide to avoid the nasty red circles. Absorbing damage doesn't worry me and tbh at least for PVE with 2k defense I don't seem to really have any issues and I've got enough stamina regen it seems (19 str + sharandar final boon, don't think there's anything else that I have that increases that). I don't usually try to deliberatly avoid agro or anything (I have burning guidance or whatever it's called) but even so I'm usually in the bottom 3 for dmg taken. Obviously for PVP I could never have enough stamina meter haha.
How much does sovereign justice actually heal for? and what's the CD on the proc? You said it's low...10, 20s?
Anyways, as I've said previously a lot of the faithful stuff I don't find necesary but I do really like moontouched so I've always wanted to keep at least 20 points there. Really the only thing I need as DO though is benefit of foresight. LS is just a nice extra plus that synergizes perfectly with what I already use so can't say no and I have invigorated healing because it's easy and free. But the faithful tree does get kinda boring, maybe it's time to switch it up or give AC a go again. If only respecs were less expensive
The CD on Sovereign Justice is 15 seconds (with a 30% chance of activation whenever you receive damage). I've never parsed it, but the healing amount seems to be variable. I want to say it's something like a 1.1-1.3k heal in a small radius around the DC (before Righteousness, which unfortunately affects the healing it does to you).
I usually put 2-3 points in Divine Advantage. 3 points for AC just because I don't have BotS to combo with Seal and continually refresh the buff for myself.
Foresight is still great, of course. ACs really need to be mobile and on top of things to compensate for its lack, IMO. Blessing of Battle offers the same benefit as unfeated Foresight, but the buff radius is small. Thankfully it lasts for about ~10 seconds, so maintaining it isn't much of an issue.
If you enjoy being extremely tanky while still healing well, AC is fun. I'm a little less likely to fall asleep in dungeons while using this playstyle Also, people often forget that Exaltation isn't just a panic button; it's also a hefty defense, damage, and (with feat) healing buff.
The CD on Sovereign Justice is 15 seconds (with a 30% chance of activation whenever you receive damage). I've never parsed it, but the healing amount seems to be variable. I want to say it's something like a 1.1-1.3k heal in a small radius around the DC (before Righteousness, which unfortunately affects the healing it does to you).
I usually put 2-3 points in Divine Advantage. 3 points for AC just because I don't have BotS to combo with Seal and continually refresh the buff for myself.
Foresight is still great, of course. ACs really need to be mobile and on top of things to compensate for its lack, IMO. Blessing of Battle offers the same benefit as unfeated Foresight, but the buff radius is small. Thankfully it lasts for about ~10 seconds, so maintaining it isn't much of an issue.
If you enjoy being extremely tanky while still healing well, AC is fun. I'm a little less likely to fall asleep in dungeons while using this playstyle Also, people often forget that Exaltation isn't just a panic button; it's also a hefty defense, damage, and (with feat) healing buff.
Yeah I think AC is really powerful, and you definetely become more tanky, which is of course great for PVP. I just felt like I spent all my time trying to position to be able to use targeted spells etc instead of just cast spamming, which for me so far has seemed like the best approach, even though it's not a very refined play style approach. Abuse your spell rotation and throw out as man at-wills as posible. Easiest way to keep DP up and faster CD on HG, which I throw down all the **** time.
Lately though I feel like I'm using less and less healing, especially for clearing trash and really any boss thats not Draco/Fulminorax/Valindra. Did an entire CN run the other day where I was only using SB/ASeal for healing was running DG/Searing Light for debuff and dmg and it was quite nice. Moontouched may have helped some too, but I didn't feel like it was critical by any means. So that kind of got me thinking about moving away from the righteous feats. Of course I don't always run with super pro groups, depends which guildies/friends are on, sometimes I end up helping lesser geared people or helping a friend out with an alt, and there's even a random pug run now and again (this is probably sacrilege haha) so I'm not sure I want to completely drop all my healing feats.
You'd feat BotS if you had it you're saying and use less points in divine advantage or skip divine advantage in preferance of feated BotS? Got a little lost on that part.
Sovereign Justice doesn't sound outstanding but a 1k area heal every 15s or so doesn't sound bad. Righteousness doesn't bother me nearly as much as long as I'm using MH set, and like I said before I really don't take that much dmg in dungeons. Usually my HP isn't much of an issue unless I screw up and take some massive spike dmg or are unfortunate enough to end up in one of those situations where you can't avoid a stun and then get stuck in the stun train of a bunch of mobs.
Yeah I think AC is really powerful, and you definetely become more tanky, which is of course great for PVP. I just felt like I spent all my time trying to position to be able to use targeted spells etc instead of just cast spamming, which for me so far has seemed like the best approach, even though it's not a very refined play style approach. Abuse your spell rotation and throw out as man at-wills as posible. Easiest way to keep DP up and faster CD on HG, which I throw down all the **** time.
Lately though I feel like I'm using less and less healing, especially for clearing trash and really any boss thats not Draco/Fulminorax/Valindra. Did an entire CN run the other day where I was only using SB/ASeal for healing was running DG/Searing Light for debuff and dmg and it was quite nice. Moontouched may have helped some too, but I didn't feel like it was critical by any means. So that kind of got me thinking about moving away from the righteous feats. Of course I don't always run with super pro groups, depends which guildies/friends are on, sometimes I end up helping lesser geared people or helping a friend out with an alt, and there's even a random pug run now and again (this is probably sacrilege haha) so I'm not sure I want to completely drop all my healing feats.
You'd feat BotS if you had it you're saying and use less points in divine advantage or skip divine advantage in preferance of feated BotS? Got a little lost on that part.
Sovereign Justice doesn't sound outstanding but a 1k area heal every 15s or so doesn't sound bad. Righteousness doesn't bother me nearly as much as long as I'm using MH set, and like I said before I really don't take that much dmg in dungeons. Usually my HP isn't much of an issue unless I screw up and take some massive spike dmg or are unfortunate enough to end up in one of those situations where you can't avoid a stun and then get stuck in the stun train of a bunch of mobs.
Are you 0/10/21 or something?
Yeah, Sovereign Justice's heal is nothing compared to Miracle Healer, which I also use. I like that it just activates as I get hit, and if anything I make special efforts to get hit since I'd rather mobs try to beat on me than on a party member when possible. It's hard to tell exactly how much aggro I'm getting in most dungeons because the damage taken is calculated after mitigation, and my DC has 45% DR and 25% deflection, which cuts the damage taken down drastically.
I hear you on not feeling that DC is as necessary for high-end groups. When I play my CW for dungeons, I honestly have no idea and do not care what the DC is doing for the most part. I have so much damage, control, and self-sustain through Life Steal and Regeneration that the DC would only need to heal me if I made a mistake or suffered a lag spike or computer error. Of course, the DC is still useful and appreciated as insurance, buff/debuff service, and as a support for party members unable to heal themselves efficiently.
As for Power of the Sun on DO, it might be worth giving up Ethereal Boon to take (can always compensate by slotting Divine Fortune if necessary). I never took the opportunity to play with it, but the idea of stacking Sun and Oppression feats together is pretty appealing. No room for Sacred Flame there, but I retired it when I went AC, so I'm used to playing without it now.
Yes, I'm 0/10/21. The Faithful feats are Deepstone Blessing and Prestigious Exaltation, and then I split the points 3/2 in the first Righteous tier, followed by Ethereal Boon, Power of Oppression, Healing Step, and Sovereign Justice.
looks like the major benefit of AC is the good class features, there are so good that its allow you do different builds without the need to max foresight feat (personally I didn't like exaltation, but its not as bad as prophecy of doom)
as for the main topic, seems like they will introduce another class soon, so I guess the need for DC have to decrease.
when I do random skirmish I find another DC in the party 1 out of 5 runs...(seeing GF is very rare)
so with only 5% of the players playing DC and more classes coming soon, the need for DC have to decrease
when its comes, I hope that they will change DC features / powers to do more buff, debuff and damage (but again, maybe the next character is paladin or bard that will have similar play as DC)
45% DR O_o. I think I have 34% or so but I guess that wouldn't take into account what that foresight is up most of the time and LS for extra def etc.
25% deflect is pretty **** good too, I think I only have like 12% when I throw on my pvp gear with deflect
Not enough sustained damage in most dungeons, almost everything can be dodged, and lifesteal + endless consumptions with the new artifacts (water, emblem of seldarine, pvp) make the healer's role less and less necessary. The new soulforge mechanics, and epic companion active bonus certainly don't help at all. This with CWs doing waaaayy too much damage (everything dies before casting a dangerous spell) and adding waaaaayy too many stacks of debuffs on mobs makes the game Control Wizard online. Stack them, enjoy.
We either need T3 with more sustained damage from everything (including adds before bosses), non controllable mobs, or a serious balance pass on damage classes, lifesteal mechanics, companions, and the final Dread ring lifesteal boon.
Currently, everything the devs add (artifacts, pets, boons) make healers uneeded, which is a shame.
When I play my own CW i regularly get field medic, because honnestly, i couldn't care less about what the cleric is doing, his astral shields or his sunburst range. 1800 lifesteal for 12% damage gained as HP with endless consumption means every time i cast an encounter, i'm full HP again. I'm debuffing adds with fanning the flame on mastery and aoe them with shards and steal time. Boom, 3 groups of adds die almost instantly. What didn't die will be killed by the other wizard using storm spell. And I know for sure i'm definitely not the best CW player and i would never get paingiver over the best ones.
and adding waaaaayy too many stacks of debuffs on mobs makes the game Control Wizard online. Stack them, enjoy.
Agreed. I play a CW as an alt. It really is night and day. My DC often ends up looking like a liability in parties for epic delves and PvP. My CW is a one man wrecking crew. Because of this my DC is becoming more of the alt.
I realize we've been primarily discussing the usefullness of clerics for end game purposes when grouping with other similar skilled/geared characters. That being said I've been checking out the LFG channel lately during/around DD hours and it's like a spam fest of people looking for clerics, by farm more than any other class, with CW being a distant second.
I see people looking for everything from 8-9k clerics for T1 runs to people demanding 15k+ clerics for VT (like yeah wtf seriously?) anyways my point is that clerics still seem to be very much in demand for parties. Doesn't really change anything for the end game scenarios as I'd said but I think it's encouraging that up until that point clerics are still very in demand. This should make paly enjoyable for the majority of the cleric community out there or anybody wanting to start a new one. Hopefully we'll be seeing some new balance stuff implemented soon or tweaks for endgame, or maybe just some dungeons events not designed around mob aoe fests
As it stands, you currently don't need a DC to run dungeons/CN. My guild no longer takes a DC to CN. We have CWs who can two-man draco from 100% health legit. The combination of life steal and CC on CWs means that for high-end PvE, the DC is obsolete. It's more efficient to bring another DPS class.
You can't look at what the top of the top end geared folks can do and apply that to the bottom 80% who can't. The vast majority of groups still need a DC.
It's a big mistake to start making drastic changes due to these folks as it will not bring/keep new players into the game.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have used now healing word more lately. Ok it does not suck I admit that. That said I am not fan lol and not using it in PvP. In PvE yes it has some use, but depends on party and what fight.
What I don't like with Healing Word is that:
A. It does not have any clear healing area.
B. It always heals the Cleric true, but my characters have GOOD DEFENSE and do not need much healing anyway at least if we talk about Gauntlgrym Tier 2 Dungeon.
C. Targeting could be improved and it has no cursor and it is not rare that in the chaotic fight you heal only yourself or wrong person.
As for how much it heals yes ok, but no I don't use that in PvP.
You can't look at what the top of the top end geared folks can do and apply that to the bottom 80% who can't. The vast majority of groups still need a DC.
Well said. What annoys me are people saying we need 1 more CW even though their group have 1-2 CW. I have done for long time now Gauntlgrym Dungeons and many times I do succesful runs without any Control Wizards in that group. I have also done Castle Never 4/4 succesfully without any Control Wizard. I don't hate Control Wizards in fact one of my best real life friends is a casual player with 11k+ Control Wizard. My 2 Clerics are 15,8k and 13,2 k Hybrid(PvE/PvP) Clerics. The one with higher gs is slightly more PvP build and they have also different starting attributes and the 13,2k is very good in PvE and ok in PvP.
Anyway my Rogue 13,5k happily tries to recuit Clerics... though there is one limit. I don't want to recuit some total newbie say 9k Cleric even for Gauntlgrym Dwarf King Dungeon. 9k Cleric is though very good and useful in FC Gauntlgrym Tier 1 Dungeon.
In future Cleric will be weakest class in PvP(50% less healing in PvP only), but still good in PvE.
With lifesteal and regen dcs are barely needed. I've seen gwfs win field medic more times than I can count. Now with healing depression I think they just lost their spot in PVP as well.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
With lifesteal and regen dcs are barely needed. I've seen gwfs win field medic more times than I can count. Now with healing depression I think they just lost their spot in PVP as well.
Right GWF need a big nerf no doubt about that. That said lol no my Rogue would choose a Cleric healer much more likely then a GWF lol. There are some extremely good GWF and there are also big majoirty of mediocre GWF and some are even bad players.
Cleric will be still useful in PvE. I do some courtesy to people that cry that group needs a second CW I tell them once no it does not need any CW and 1 is ok. If they still complain then I KICK that player.
What now? Healing depression will come yes and that likely makes Cleric weakest class in PvP, but I have not heard it is released yet and it could take months! Healing depression is only used in some Beta servers unless I am mistaken.
With lifesteal and regen dcs are barely needed. I've seen gwfs win field medic more times than I can count. Now with healing depression I think they just lost their spot in PVP as well.
This scenario would require the other 4 party members to also have an insane amount of life steal and regen. Sure that GWF may be able to heal himself in a dungeon but he cannot heal the other four.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Well, that is kinda the point: A bunch of CWs/GWFs with half-decent lifesteal/regen will all be able to keep themselves alive while ALSO doing grotesque amounts of damage. Less "a party of 5" and more like "5 dudes solo-facetanking a dungeon at the same time".
It's not uncommon at high levels: you can watch a CW's healbar shoot up as soon as a shard pops, for instance.
It's not uncommon at high levels: you can watch a CW's healbar shoot up as soon as a shard pops, for instance.
Uhg this.
Many times in PvP this has happened to me in 1v1 situations. mostly i am on the winnign side of these battles. I have them nearly dead, and me with about 1/4 of my HPs left and they pop that shard and its battle over they almost instantly get mass healing and im done for.
DCs arent an uneeded class as of yet, although, we have seen the tip of the iceberg. As many have psoted most players are not the high skilled, high GS, all BiS players, and so there still is a need for DCs.
When made my switch to a DC main, I would have never thought that i would go an entire DD event without getting chosen to run a dungeon. Yet it has now happened various times. Nothing major but still bothersome.
As for PvP, i have long since given up on playing a healing DC. There was no point, as you die extremely fast (unless you were a regen build).
For the last 4-5 months I have played mostly a dps type DC in pvp ( with an exception of a regen build). Yeah sure I get players getting angry, but most of the times im usually in the top 2 in my team in kills and points, or in top 4 in regards to both team stats. Heck, I have gone through an entire match without being killed, and not the other team or mine didnt leave, it was a close game my team lost though.
I find this play so much more fun to play than healing. I do more damage, i debuff, I can move around more freely and therefore live so much longer than I would if I were a healing DC. There is one downside, once the enemy team realizes the amount of damage i am doing to them, (this is no joke) they all begin to target me before all others on my team. Even after being hunted down, i can still live longer than a healing because I am more mobile.
With the new changes to pvp, even the dps builds will now be HAMSTER. Burst damage will now be nerfed, and to dps dc builds, thats our bread and butter. It's what helps me and my team kill even the tankiest gwfs in game.
Back to PvE...
You know, I had always been curious of an all DC party doing dungeon delves. Maybe have 2 dedicated healer, 2 dps, and the last be a hybrid? oh heck i don't care what type of dc, just a 5 party DC sounde like fun.
If any of you DCs want to try this out, let me know. This can turn out to be a bloodbath against us, or something fun.
Very curious to know what this thread is about. Can someone sum it up all these pages for me pls? I have seen some LFG chat requesting no healer runs, but i cant imagine the DC going to the wayside. Especially when we bring healing, buffs and debuffs. Who doesnt want Linked Spirit, or Divine Glow, or dmg increase from Hallowed ground?
You know, I had always been curious of an all DC party doing dungeon delves. Maybe have 2 dedicated healer, 2 dps, and the last be a hybrid? oh heck i don't care what type of dc, just a 5 party DC sounde like fun.
If any of you DCs want to try this out, let me know. This can turn out to be a bloodbath against us, or something fun.
When high prophet could stack using chains and daunting light infinitely my guild and I ran spider and let's just say 50 stacks makes that boss drop so fast lol!
Comments
Hallowed ground-Divine shield-Prophecy for debuff-Glow for additional def debuff, you now have a dmg buff/def buff/heal (if spec'ed mid tier) regen from divine, and 2 def debuffs...Yeah id rather have all that in a group then say a 3rd CW any day...not to mention astral shield...I dont care if you have a ton of lifesteal that still comes in handy.
As for 3 man draco, I know 10-15 CWs who have done it (myself included), and while it is a pain it is doable.
I have also seen (from 50% or more)
2CW/HR
2CW/GWF
2CW/DC
and I heard of 2CW (two man draco).
That said 3-man draco is more to prove you can do it rather than being efficient. 4-5 man is reliable. I think for 5 man, if you have 2 good CWs and 3 good anything else you can do fine. For four man, I think 2CW/DC/GWF or TR works really well.
That said, we did a 2CW/2DC/GWF CN, and that allowed the DC to do more buff and debuff and the clear time was pretty good - not as fast as the 4CW/GWF time, but with a DC in the group, the times are a bit slower, but there is a low chance of wiping.
So my thought here is that as the skill and gear level goes down, the usefulness of a DC goes up, and the more important healing can be.
That said, I don't mind running with a DC, it's just no longer necessary. Seems the only necessary class is CW... which i am not that happy about... but as long as they make mountains of trash to kill we will take mountains of control to kill them with.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Well you can have LS up 90% of the time with ease so that's nice, and as a DO you're 100% going to run SB for buffing foresight so it's just convienient, you get all those added stats based off of a proc from a spell already in your rotation. That's just good synergry. Also, is there really anything better to grab? Granted some of those stats are wasted, primarily the recovery, but even when overcapping crit rating you still gain crit% which is good for everybody and buffing people's defense is always good. Primarily though, buffing my team for upwards of 1500 power almost constantly is pretty decent.
You can think what you want. But I don't see how a spell you can cast 6 times in under 10 seconds can be bad, especially when I can watch it crit for 16k+ and it procs just about every proc possible for a DC. That's even with the crappy targeting system in this game. I've never heard any Cleric say that AS sucks but there are some of us who feel that the game play revolves too much around using AS and therefore limits a Clerics versatility.
Let's not even speak of the TRs' dirty secrets... solo all of CN? No problem!
Linked Spirit seems to be more popular with Faithful builds since they have to put the points somewhere, anyway. I don't include Linked Spirit in Righteous builds since there are better feats. The Power boost is probably the best thing about LS, but just to illustrate what it really means, consider that an increase of 1791 Power on DC translates to a 6.3% increase in minimum damage and a 5.5% increase in maximum damage (tooltip for Daunting Light). Good and worth using if the points aren't needed elsewhere, but not the earth-shaking difference that some DCs out there seem to think.
I didn't go down the list and test every single ability, so maybe there are variations, but my guess is that Power scales similarly across the board. I took a brief look at my CW and found that 204 Power made a difference of .06% at the max range, which is in line with what I'm seeing on my DC.
As for Healing Word, I'm part of the fan club. It provides great fire-and-forget healing, procs feats etc. like you stated, and generates bonus Divinity with Ethereal Boon on top of all that. I think most players who discount HW do so simply because they don't like having to aim it.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
We should make an HW fan club thread!!! If I had to choose one healing spell I would take healing word. It is the only thing that allows us to "burst heal" and the regen ticks are so strong I once saved someone from dying to hand b/c I cast one before they got hit and the regen kept them alive by a sliver of HP... true miracle healer:)
Although span4iard I have to say I don't think HW can insta crit heal at 16k... It can tick up to 16k, what you should look at is in your logs it will say "your healing word has healed so and so for X amount" every few seconds. I think my highest ticks are around 3k with HW, and highest divinity heal would be 8.8k... 16k seems unlikely O.o
SCREENSHOTS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN
Agreed about LS. I'm not trying to say it's some perfect feat that hugely buffs everybody stats and then its just omg wtf ownage from there on...I'm aware that Power is probably the worst scaling stat of all of them (25=1 dmg) but more never hurts and yes it's more of a matter of taking this feat because I feel I don't have anything better. Although I actually have 25 points in faithful, mostly because I didn't know what else to get so I was like **** it, I'll take invigorated healing, freep passive healing...
So you run a righteous set up? I find that interesting since I feel the righteous feats are underpowered for PVE. I only have righteous rage, I could take ethereal boon but most of the time I don't need it, maybe I could get away with almost never using DF if I did have it, it would be nice for PVP too. Other than that I feel like Divine Advantage is a nice feat but hardly needed, restoration mastery is just junk, Warding shield...meh but then I hate BoH anyways and power of oppression while I've always found it interesting seems like it sounds better than it actually is. Healing Step is a great feat but it's hardly anything I need so I'd just be curious to know what you feel like you're getting from that tree?
Yeah I don't like targeting HW really either, but for some situations (a few boss fights is really the only thing I use it on these days) it's just by far the best option. But I do find it really annoying when I see somebody at 20% HP and I'm trying to find them in the mass of mobs so I can heal them. I finally find them and fire off a divine HW and in the meantime somebody else runs in front, who's at 90%, and takes the big burst heal, sigh
Haha fair enough. I know I've never crit a HW for 16k. I have a Vorpal not a Perfect Vorpal. But I've got a DC friend who's told me he crits HW for 16k...but maybe he meant the total amount healed. English isn't his first language so might of been something lost in translation. No screenie. Either way, I've healed people for like 70% of their HP before with a healing word. That's always nice.
From where I am, I don't think the DC is in a bad spot. I usually rely on the LFG channel or friends list to find groups, though I am rather fastidious when it comes to selecting and composing groups. Almost every group I've been with has been quite happy to find a competent, decently geared DC. Most times if it's a LFG pug I receive a few friend requests after the run(s). Granted, this isn't at the level of two or three-manning Draco, but much of it is near-endgame content. The middle of the bell curve, where most players sit, is still very appreciative of the DC class and utilizes it regularly.
As I see it, this thread is divided between the usual "the sky is falling" belly-aching, more reasonable appraisals that compare the DC to the relative strength and necessity of other classes, and PVP perspective.
Two important concepts:
Those two things being said, nothing about the DC appears difficult to remedy. Put in a boss (or even an imposing trash mob) that does a targeted, aggro-or-proximity-based attack which can't be kited or dodged. Make it hit hard enough that the only thing that can survive it is a GF with at least half a guard meter standing in an astral shield. Suddenly these seemingly superfluous classes have a purpose again. Parties could then debate rotating their soul forges to take the hits while trying to DPS race the inevitability of someone taking a strike with it on cooldown or bringing a DC and GF. Risk/reward scenarios are not hard to construct, even with current abilities. Of course, that's an over-simplified scenario; it's also not too hard to see how a party-augmentation/leader class (DC) and traditional tank (GF) can be reintegrated into the meta of endgame dungeons. It seems accurate to say that a difficult situation is currently remedied by the "add more CWs" formula, and this isn't a pain just felt by DCs.
The game is still being fleshed out, and I don't see DCs (in PVE, at least) moving toward a more useless position--unless the game becomes more of an AoE round-up-and-smash fest than it already is, and most indications are that it's already on a trajectory away from that.
I find that Faithful provides the overall highest healing potential, but that Righteous allows for the best mobility and passive defense, which appeals to me for PvP (hard to imagine PvP without Healing Step) and works well for PvE.
- Divine Advantage is great because mobs deliberately attempt to flank players and benefit from Combat Advantage.
- Restoration Mastery is no longer part of the Righteous tree (good riddance). It's now Virtuous.
- Power of the Sun would be great for DOs. I'm AC, so not an option.
- Power of Oppression has utility for PvE as well; you aren't literally going to Astral Seal every single trash mob, but there's time to debuff quite a few targets if you use Seal as your At-Will spam and constantly change targets.
- Healing Step is the best thing about the whole tree and is worth it for the frequent temp HP and ridiculous stamina regen. Being able to absorb damage and dodge frequently allows for much better mobility and works well with the AC playstyle. I find myself skating around in PvE just to get a better angle to hit an Exaltation or a HW or to give Blessing of Battle's buff.
- Sovereign Justice is better than the 4th pip in Faithful, but nothing amazing. It's still a passive AoE heal on a low cooldown, so I keep the point in it.
If a DC deliberately tries to avoid aggro in PvE, never PvPs, and is never called on to serve as an initiator or as substitute tank for a boss fight (e.g. Hrimnir), then I'd probably recommend Faithful; if they like to take the lead in PvE, be in the middle of things, and have a better quality of life when they PvP, I typically recommend Righteous.
Edit: Totally forgot to mention Ethereal Boon. I don't slot Divine Fortune, and I use HW quite a bit, so this feat is great for maintaining Divinity.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Ok so it sounds like the benefits are mostly PVP oriented. Fair enough. I can't be bothered to spec specifically for PVP in this game, at least not currently, maybe, if there was more diversity in terms of types of pvp or maps and at least some semblance of parity and balance, then I'd consider it. Currently when I pvp i just toss on some blue regen gear and rings/belts to buff my HP/Deflect. Roll around with 3k Def, 1.3 deflect, 1.3k regen. I find it to be pretty meh but it is what it is, better than nothing I guess. Sometimes I'll just roll with the MH set anyways and whatever it's good enough. As people have covered many times pvp is so stomp/be stomped that often times it doesn't matter what my gear is.
That being said thanks for that detailed look of why you're using what you are. Obviously righteous rage is a must and ethereal is just more free divinity which isn't bad and can be vital in PVP. I do really like divine advantage as a feat, and maybe it has better PVE usage than I had thought, also I've always felt you don't need 5 points in this feat, that 3 would probably be plenty. So they moved Power of the sun to righteous? I hadn't even noticed. That's interesting. Back in the day I'd always thought that running both that and power of oppression could be pretty interesting. But then you'd really have to focus on at-will spam and I honestly don't really miss my days of BotS/Aseal (I am still DO) and I prefer to spam sacred flame when I can for better DP generation and it puts out more dmg plus the small bits of temp HP. I'm not sure either of those is great on the PVE side of things but dotting up another person in PVP with both of them could b real nice (-10% dmg output and -5% crit chance) I also don't use BotS in PVP (just for soloing mostly). Healing step is amazing, no doubt. And honestly, it sounds like you and me may have a similar play style for both PVE/PVP. I like to get in the middle of everything and cast and spam away as much as possible, just slide to avoid the nasty red circles. Absorbing damage doesn't worry me and tbh at least for PVE with 2k defense I don't seem to really have any issues and I've got enough stamina regen it seems (19 str + sharandar final boon, don't think there's anything else that I have that increases that). I don't usually try to deliberatly avoid agro or anything (I have burning guidance or whatever it's called) but even so I'm usually in the bottom 3 for dmg taken. Obviously for PVP I could never have enough stamina meter haha.
How much does sovereign justice actually heal for? and what's the CD on the proc? You said it's low...10, 20s?
Anyways, as I've said previously a lot of the faithful stuff I don't find necesary but I do really like moontouched so I've always wanted to keep at least 20 points there. Really the only thing I need as DO though is benefit of foresight. LS is just a nice extra plus that synergizes perfectly with what I already use so can't say no and I have invigorated healing because it's easy and free. But the faithful tree does get kinda boring, maybe it's time to switch it up or give AC a go again. If only respecs were less expensive
The CD on Sovereign Justice is 15 seconds (with a 30% chance of activation whenever you receive damage). I've never parsed it, but the healing amount seems to be variable. I want to say it's something like a 1.1-1.3k heal in a small radius around the DC (before Righteousness, which unfortunately affects the healing it does to you).
I usually put 2-3 points in Divine Advantage. 3 points for AC just because I don't have BotS to combo with Seal and continually refresh the buff for myself.
Foresight is still great, of course. ACs really need to be mobile and on top of things to compensate for its lack, IMO. Blessing of Battle offers the same benefit as unfeated Foresight, but the buff radius is small. Thankfully it lasts for about ~10 seconds, so maintaining it isn't much of an issue.
If you enjoy being extremely tanky while still healing well, AC is fun. I'm a little less likely to fall asleep in dungeons while using this playstyle
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Yeah I think AC is really powerful, and you definetely become more tanky, which is of course great for PVP. I just felt like I spent all my time trying to position to be able to use targeted spells etc instead of just cast spamming, which for me so far has seemed like the best approach, even though it's not a very refined play style approach. Abuse your spell rotation and throw out as man at-wills as posible. Easiest way to keep DP up and faster CD on HG, which I throw down all the **** time.
Lately though I feel like I'm using less and less healing, especially for clearing trash and really any boss thats not Draco/Fulminorax/Valindra. Did an entire CN run the other day where I was only using SB/ASeal for healing was running DG/Searing Light for debuff and dmg and it was quite nice. Moontouched may have helped some too, but I didn't feel like it was critical by any means. So that kind of got me thinking about moving away from the righteous feats. Of course I don't always run with super pro groups, depends which guildies/friends are on, sometimes I end up helping lesser geared people or helping a friend out with an alt, and there's even a random pug run now and again (this is probably sacrilege haha) so I'm not sure I want to completely drop all my healing feats.
You'd feat BotS if you had it you're saying and use less points in divine advantage or skip divine advantage in preferance of feated BotS? Got a little lost on that part.
Sovereign Justice doesn't sound outstanding but a 1k area heal every 15s or so doesn't sound bad. Righteousness doesn't bother me nearly as much as long as I'm using MH set, and like I said before I really don't take that much dmg in dungeons. Usually my HP isn't much of an issue unless I screw up and take some massive spike dmg or are unfortunate enough to end up in one of those situations where you can't avoid a stun and then get stuck in the stun train of a bunch of mobs.
Are you 0/10/21 or something?
Yeah, Sovereign Justice's heal is nothing compared to Miracle Healer, which I also use. I like that it just activates as I get hit, and if anything I make special efforts to get hit since I'd rather mobs try to beat on me than on a party member when possible. It's hard to tell exactly how much aggro I'm getting in most dungeons because the damage taken is calculated after mitigation, and my DC has 45% DR and 25% deflection, which cuts the damage taken down drastically.
I hear you on not feeling that DC is as necessary for high-end groups. When I play my CW for dungeons, I honestly have no idea and do not care what the DC is doing for the most part. I have so much damage, control, and self-sustain through Life Steal and Regeneration that the DC would only need to heal me if I made a mistake or suffered a lag spike or computer error. Of course, the DC is still useful and appreciated as insurance, buff/debuff service, and as a support for party members unable to heal themselves efficiently.
As for Power of the Sun on DO, it might be worth giving up Ethereal Boon to take (can always compensate by slotting Divine Fortune if necessary). I never took the opportunity to play with it, but the idea of stacking Sun and Oppression feats together is pretty appealing. No room for Sacred Flame there, but I retired it when I went AC, so I'm used to playing without it now.
Yes, I'm 0/10/21. The Faithful feats are Deepstone Blessing and Prestigious Exaltation, and then I split the points 3/2 in the first Righteous tier, followed by Ethereal Boon, Power of Oppression, Healing Step, and Sovereign Justice.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
as for the main topic, seems like they will introduce another class soon, so I guess the need for DC have to decrease.
when I do random skirmish I find another DC in the party 1 out of 5 runs...(seeing GF is very rare)
so with only 5% of the players playing DC and more classes coming soon, the need for DC have to decrease
when its comes, I hope that they will change DC features / powers to do more buff, debuff and damage (but again, maybe the next character is paladin or bard that will have similar play as DC)
25% deflect is pretty **** good too, I think I only have like 12% when I throw on my pvp gear with deflect
We either need T3 with more sustained damage from everything (including adds before bosses), non controllable mobs, or a serious balance pass on damage classes, lifesteal mechanics, companions, and the final Dread ring lifesteal boon.
Currently, everything the devs add (artifacts, pets, boons) make healers uneeded, which is a shame.
When I play my own CW i regularly get field medic, because honnestly, i couldn't care less about what the cleric is doing, his astral shields or his sunburst range. 1800 lifesteal for 12% damage gained as HP with endless consumption means every time i cast an encounter, i'm full HP again. I'm debuffing adds with fanning the flame on mastery and aoe them with shards and steal time. Boom, 3 groups of adds die almost instantly. What didn't die will be killed by the other wizard using storm spell. And I know for sure i'm definitely not the best CW player and i would never get paingiver over the best ones.
Agreed. I play a CW as an alt. It really is night and day. My DC often ends up looking like a liability in parties for epic delves and PvP. My CW is a one man wrecking crew. Because of this my DC is becoming more of the alt.
I see people looking for everything from 8-9k clerics for T1 runs to people demanding 15k+ clerics for VT (like yeah wtf seriously?) anyways my point is that clerics still seem to be very much in demand for parties. Doesn't really change anything for the end game scenarios as I'd said but I think it's encouraging that up until that point clerics are still very in demand. This should make paly enjoyable for the majority of the cleric community out there or anybody wanting to start a new one. Hopefully we'll be seeing some new balance stuff implemented soon or tweaks for endgame, or maybe just some dungeons events not designed around mob aoe fests
It's a big mistake to start making drastic changes due to these folks as it will not bring/keep new players into the game.
What I don't like with Healing Word is that:
A. It does not have any clear healing area.
B. It always heals the Cleric true, but my characters have GOOD DEFENSE and do not need much healing anyway at least if we talk about Gauntlgrym Tier 2 Dungeon.
C. Targeting could be improved and it has no cursor and it is not rare that in the chaotic fight you heal only yourself or wrong person.
As for how much it heals yes ok, but no I don't use that in PvP. Well said. What annoys me are people saying we need 1 more CW even though their group have 1-2 CW. I have done for long time now Gauntlgrym Dungeons and many times I do succesful runs without any Control Wizards in that group. I have also done Castle Never 4/4 succesfully without any Control Wizard. I don't hate Control Wizards in fact one of my best real life friends is a casual player with 11k+ Control Wizard. My 2 Clerics are 15,8k and 13,2 k Hybrid(PvE/PvP) Clerics. The one with higher gs is slightly more PvP build and they have also different starting attributes and the 13,2k is very good in PvE and ok in PvP.
Anyway my Rogue 13,5k happily tries to recuit Clerics... though there is one limit. I don't want to recuit some total newbie say 9k Cleric even for Gauntlgrym Dwarf King Dungeon. 9k Cleric is though very good and useful in FC Gauntlgrym Tier 1 Dungeon.
In future Cleric will be weakest class in PvP(50% less healing in PvP only), but still good in PvE.
Cleric will be still useful in PvE. I do some courtesy to people that cry that group needs a second CW I tell them once no it does not need any CW and 1 is ok. If they still complain then I KICK that player.
What now? Healing depression will come yes and that likely makes Cleric weakest class in PvP, but I have not heard it is released yet and it could take months! Healing depression is only used in some Beta servers unless I am mistaken.
This scenario would require the other 4 party members to also have an insane amount of life steal and regen. Sure that GWF may be able to heal himself in a dungeon but he cannot heal the other four.
It's not uncommon at high levels: you can watch a CW's healbar shoot up as soon as a shard pops, for instance.
Uhg this.
Many times in PvP this has happened to me in 1v1 situations. mostly i am on the winnign side of these battles. I have them nearly dead, and me with about 1/4 of my HPs left and they pop that shard and its battle over they almost instantly get mass healing and im done for.
DCs arent an uneeded class as of yet, although, we have seen the tip of the iceberg. As many have psoted most players are not the high skilled, high GS, all BiS players, and so there still is a need for DCs.
When made my switch to a DC main, I would have never thought that i would go an entire DD event without getting chosen to run a dungeon. Yet it has now happened various times. Nothing major but still bothersome.
As for PvP, i have long since given up on playing a healing DC. There was no point, as you die extremely fast (unless you were a regen build).
For the last 4-5 months I have played mostly a dps type DC in pvp ( with an exception of a regen build). Yeah sure I get players getting angry, but most of the times im usually in the top 2 in my team in kills and points, or in top 4 in regards to both team stats. Heck, I have gone through an entire match without being killed, and not the other team or mine didnt leave, it was a close game my team lost though.
I find this play so much more fun to play than healing. I do more damage, i debuff, I can move around more freely and therefore live so much longer than I would if I were a healing DC. There is one downside, once the enemy team realizes the amount of damage i am doing to them, (this is no joke) they all begin to target me before all others on my team. Even after being hunted down, i can still live longer than a healing because I am more mobile.
With the new changes to pvp, even the dps builds will now be HAMSTER. Burst damage will now be nerfed, and to dps dc builds, thats our bread and butter. It's what helps me and my team kill even the tankiest gwfs in game.
Back to PvE...
You know, I had always been curious of an all DC party doing dungeon delves. Maybe have 2 dedicated healer, 2 dps, and the last be a hybrid? oh heck i don't care what type of dc, just a 5 party DC sounde like fun.
If any of you DCs want to try this out, let me know. This can turn out to be a bloodbath against us, or something fun.