The Future of DCs?

velynna

I'm a bit worried about the DC's future.

As it stands, you currently don't need a DC to run dungeons/CN. My guild no longer takes a DC to CN. We have CWs who can two-man draco from 100% health legit. The combination of life steal and CC on CWs means that for high-end PvE, the DC is obsolete. It's more efficient to bring another DPS class.

In terms of PvP, with the incoming healing depression changes, will it even be fun to play a healer class that can't heal when players most need it?

I absolutely love the DC and it's really hard for me to swallow what's being done to this class after investing so much in a PvE DC and a PvP one. What are your thoughts?

chemboy613

You must be talking about shaz and ashema, they are beasts!

That said I feel the same way too. Dcs are nice but not necessary.

I think dc is now all about buff and debuff as high end groups don't need much healing. Act shows me the defense from astral shield is way more useful than the heal.

Sad thing is that now high prophet is best in slot. Dc is in a terrible place now. I hope they rework the class soon.

trapublican

They don't care, roll a GWF or CW since it's obvious those are the only classes they think people should be playing.

tyrtallow

So the DC finally joins the rest of the classes in being no longer necessary for DGs. Why is that a problem? Healbots will always find parties regardless - the overwhelming majority of the player base is nowhere near as good as people who can potentially two-man draco. Other DC builds are having the time of their lives as far as I know, except for the pure DPS DC, which last I checked was still the odd build out.
Bottomline is that no class should be necessary in D&D, and I seem to recall a discussion where the devs mentioned that this was one of the things they had hoped to achieve with Neverwinter. Back in beta queues didn't even care what your class was, it just put you in a group with 4 random people. Of course PvE was very different then from what it is now, not to mention player knowledge was very limited. And so there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth until the devs were forced to decree that all parties should have a GF and DC. It's only recently, after they "fixed" many DGs, class abilities and let player knowledge marinate a bit, that they've apparently decided to re-implement their old ideas. If that's the case, you have to admire them for staying true to their vision of the game.

Anyway the DC is a leader class. Your job is to be a multiplier. We have never been just healers.

charononus

tyrtallow wrote: »

So the DC finally joins the rest of the classes in being no longer necessary for DGs. Why is that a problem? Healbots will always find parties regardless - the overwhelming majority of the player base is nowhere near as good as people who can potentially two-man draco. Other DC builds are having the time of their lives as far as I know, except for the pure DPS DC, which last I checked was still the odd build out.
Bottomline is that no class should be necessary in D&D, and I seem to recall a discussion where the devs mentioned that this was one of the things they had hoped to achieve with Neverwinter. Back in beta queues didn't even care what your class was, it just put you in a group with 4 random people. Of course PvE was very different then from what it is now, not to mention player knowledge was very limited. And so there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth until the devs were forced to decree that all parties should have a GF and DC. It's only recently, after they "fixed" many DGs, class abilities and let player knowledge marinate a bit, that they've apparently decided to re-implement their old ideas. If that's the case, you have to admire them for staying true to their vision of the game.

Anyway the DC is a leader class. Your job is to be a multiplier. We have never been just healers.

Don't forget about all the power buffs an ACDC can throw out. DC's aren't needed but I don't think most people would want to avoid them.

morsitans

Yeah, divine DG + high prophet debuff lets your team melt almost anything. Stick a hallowed ground down at the same time and it's insanely fast.

It's difficult to assess whether a force multiplier is more useful than just "moar force" (buffs and debuffs don't really get counted by any easily measured yardstick), but if you've already got four awesome dps peeps, it's probably a lot easier to find a DC than it is another awesome deeps guy (given that the buff/debuff of DG spam is stat-independent, and HP is a t1 set). Plus: mitigation woo.

Still, regarding where the DC is headed, I'm with tyrtallow: for the vast majority of people (myself included) healbotting T2s/T2.5s with less-than-uber-geared dudes is the more realistic endgame, and we are far lower on the list of "early redundancy" than say..GFs, and possibly TRs.

velynna

When you can do an entire dungeon using only one class, I feel like that's a little un-balanced. Ideally, you would need more than 1 class for the variety in skills/roles. Yes, a lot of groups will still find a DC useful, and yes, our debuffs are useful. But as a geared DC, I'm just not wanted anymore (at least in my guild). And if I'm being used, it's mostly for debuffs rather than actual healing. I just find it unfortunate that I spent so much AD on buying and upgrading pets, upgrading all my artefacts to epic, and upgrading enchants, only to be told to get on CW for a CN group. I just want to be needed/more useful! (Of course, this is more of an end-game issue, but one I am facing and I feel like others will face as more CWs catch on to the life steal build.)

(And yes, I am talking about Ashema and Shaz! K4to is beast as well!)

velynna

Oh! And also, it's kind of telling when a CW can heal themselves for much more and much faster than a DC ever could. They can heal themselves from 5-10% hp to full when their shard explodes, and their other encounters also heal for more than a healing word could, and faster than a divine AS could. As a fully geared and experienced DC, I've seen CWs match my healing at the end of a dungeon.

morsitans

Yeah, but again: mitigation.

If you can genuinely kill everything without being hit, then yeah, you might as well roll a team of 10k HP glass cannons, but if you expect to actually take damage (as far as I can tell, for instance, fighting valindra is basically 'you must pay 3k HP every few seconds for the right to remain in this room') then mitigation is always going to be useful. CWs are squishy. Being able to get from 10% to full just from lifesteal is great, but if someone takes you to zero then..oh wait, soulforged procs.

Yeah, ok. Nevermind.

Eh, still, I think this might be more because our healing is a bit crappy and DoTty than because lifesteal is broken: the intention was never for spike healing to be a thing (presumably why daunting light doesn't proc repurpose soul, for instance: I've got pretty mediocre gear and I've hit 30-40k on a DL crit on a bunch of debuffed monsters: hit 5 monsters with that and it's 4.5-6k HP x5 to everyone in the area...or should be), but as damage is the one thing that continues scaling all the way into the endgame, lifesteal becomes a spike heal by itself.

But anyway, I'll keep mooching around in the lowbie department, methinks.

velynna

Soulforge procs... and then pop Bloodraven crystal... then drop shard; back to 100% hp. And mitigation isn't that important when you have 2-5 CWs with CC; you don't need it as much when the mobs aren't moving and then they're dead. Granted, we are talking experienced CWs.

I just find it unfortunate we're at the point where the squishiest class who is supposed to need us the most doesn't any more. Basically, the highest DPS class can also heal itself the most effectively. Maybe a little bit broken?

spani4rd

Well it's been ages since I felt my primary purpose was healing. DG/AS/SB is my standard set up and I just use HW for some boss fights where I want more healing or people are more spread out. I see the real value in a DC as being DR, debuffs (DG or whatever else), buffs (I run linked spirit) etc. I mean half the time you don't even need a divine AS.
That being said it seems pretty weak that people would be like na don't bring your DC get on your CW so we can roll 5 CW for this run. Like who cares? Does it even matter that much? Is the run going to be faster with a 5th CW vs a DC, maybe slightly but at that point all the CW stuff is redundant, even all their control mechanics, with 4 CW's you can keep everything perma locked down pretty much. Sure a CW could do about 8M more dmg probably but I'd think that all the damage buffs and reduced mitigation for creeps would total more than 8M spread between another 4 Cw's. Either way it the runs should be so fast an smooth it shouldn't even matter.
I'd say my favorite parties are TR/DC/3x CW but I have no problem with other classes as long as they pull their weight, I don't need it to be optimal but it does suck just dragging somebody along who does nothing, unless it's a friend your helping out.
Also, in regards to CW's with life steal. Yes it can be very nice and helps keep them alive, without a doubt, but the healing compared to say the healing that I put out on a quick easy run without really trying...there's not much of a comparison. On a VT the other day the diference between my healing output and a CW with 2k life steal was something like 2 million so it's hardly unimportant. Divine healing word > life steal for a burst heal

xelliz

I have run and completed most of the dungeons in the game, but I am far from elite top tier. So just because there are guilds with members running around with 17k CW's who can wreck house in Dungeons does NOT mean the rest of Neverwinter can. Please stop acting like everyone is running around with 4CW's and a GWF with rank 10's and 3 Legendary Artifacts, because most people are not.

velynna

Yeah, overall, no DC goes (relatively) faster, but is also riskier. I wouldn't say DCs are completely obsolete just yet, but their usefulness has definitely been curtailed.

I feel like the CW you were running with may not have had the best spells on their bar or the best rotation? I've recently respecced my CW, and I have 1.3k life steal; I definitely heal for more than a divine healing word with most of my encounters. (Although, I won't benefit from the increased defense with linked spirit).

velynna

xelliz wrote: »

I have run and completed most of the dungeons in the game, but I am far from elite top tier. So just because there are guilds with members running around with 17k CW's who can wreck house in Dungeons does NOT mean the rest of Neverwinter can. Please stop acting like everyone is running around with 4CW's and a GWF with rank 10's and 3 Legendary Artifacts, because most people are not.

I'm hardly pretending this... Thanks for the constructive input?

morsitans

Eh, I think xelliz is mostly echoing my point: your position is entirely valid, but applies only to a very select upper tier of the population: when you're getting to the point of optimising your team balance for maximum clearance speed, rather than perhaps "can we clear the dungeon at all?", then you're doing pretty well overall. And again, the DC is in nowhere near the terrible place the GF is. GFs can barely get into T1s now, and people running T1s are generally awful.

Plus of course, they're learning as they go: look at VT and MC: both have final boss fights that are NOT 'zomg mass add spam', so they're already trying to shift things away from just "get dudes who can control EVERYTHING, profit" playstyles.

Anyway, if you're bored, come down and join us in in the lower tiers: you could help my crappy GF complete some epics... :P

velynna

morsitans wrote: »

Eh, I think xelliz is mostly echoing my point: your position is entirely valid, but applies only to a very select upper tier of the population

Fair enough. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

I'm not going anywhere near a GF in a dungeon! 20k gs CWs only plz

lazuree

xelliz wrote: »

I have run and completed most of the dungeons in the game, but I am far from elite top tier. So just because there are guilds with members running around with 17k CW's who can wreck house in Dungeons does NOT mean the rest of Neverwinter can. Please stop acting like everyone is running around with 4CW's and a GWF with rank 10's and 3 Legendary Artifacts, because most people are not.

I just wanted to add you don't even need all that to go without a cleric... I go on my CW alt with r5's and it's perfectly fine to go without a DC. 4 cw's and a gwf is faster... not gonna lie
I just go on my DC now because my friends hate using pots and they let me play my fave class ^.^

velynna

lazuree wrote: »

I just wanted to add you don't even need all that to go without a cleric... I go on my CW alt with r5's and it's perfectly fine to go without a DC.

Yup. I geared my CW with rank 5-7s and only 1 (blue) artefact (rank 37). The spec and rotation are more important.

elewyndyl

It has been a long while since I did Castle Never so not an expert on that anymore. However who would like to be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and try Valindra without a Cleric? I am not saying theoretically impossible, but I would not even like to try VT 2/2 without Cleric.

I am not worried about PvE future for Clerics. Good Clerics are useful in PvE. PvP changes that Cleric will heal 50% less(in PvP only) in the future to come well that worries me a lot and I hope some genious create a build that is adapted to those changes, but that remains to be seen.

velynna

I honestly think VT would be even easier without a DC than CN (especially the last boss). A team of 5 GWFs did it recently with no problem.

I'm in, though!

PvP changes are definitely my main concern. Even if DCs heal less, I feel like they may still be viable, particularly with regen nerfed and classes being less able to sustain themselves. Whether they will be any fun to play remains to be seen... it's just going to be sad to throw an HW on someone and watch it do barely anything.

elewyndyl

velynna wrote: »

I honestly think VT would be even easier without a DC than CN (especially the last boss). A team of 5 GWFs did it recently with no problem.

I'm in, though!

Lol then GWF sure needs nerf.

spani4rd

velynna wrote: »

I honestly think VT would be even easier without a DC than CN (especially the last boss). A team of 5 GWFs did it recently with no problem.

I'm in, though!

Yeah that should make sense, better dmg output and more mitigation than say 5 CW's, just not all that added control. Trash would probably take a little longer but Valindra should go down real fast, not to mention that GWF sprint gets you to those summoning stones of Valindra's in a hurry

tyrtallow

It's interesting that people mention parties with multiple CWs, since for best results you only need 3 or less. Many CW powers/effects no longer stack with each other. You can't use your strongest nukes while someone is using Singularity, and you can pretty much keep Enfeeble up constantly with just two CWs. Only 1 CW needs to have GPF and Icy Terrain.

Consider if a cleric had been selected to fill your slot instead. A cleric can attack mobs during Singularity (it actually maxes out Searing Light's damage - for the record Searing Light is potentially the most damaging power in the game), a cleric can use chains to "catch" mobs after Singularity so all other wizards/hunters do maximum damage with their AoE skills and clerics have Hallowed Ground. While doing all that the cleric has a third encounter slot to play around with, for HW/AS/Divine Glow/Daunting/whatever, and if one of your teammates is forced to leave or becomes absent, a cleric can easily switch to a healing setup.
Finally, no redundancy. Even a buff/debuff GF can be an incredible asset to a 4 DPS team.

If we do have to start on the topic of end-game a cleric can spam Hallowed Ground. By using the right build, the right encounters, Action Point potions or some combination of the 3 any well-geared cleric, regardless of whether they are a heal/buffbot or not, can easily pull it off. You'll be surprised just how much a near constant +15% damage and mitigation for the entire run can speed up a DG.

BTW it would make sense that some DGs are better suited to some classes, or even specific specs, than others, especially if things remain as they are.

velynna

tyrtallow wrote: »

It's interesting that people mention parties with multiple CWs, since for best results you only need 3 or less.

And that's why you 3 or 4-man Draco

I certainly agree that DCs have some powerful debuffs. At the same time, I find it disheartening that the most efficient DC is one with mainly debuffs on the bar. I want to heal people, danmit!

tyrtallow

Traditionally, D&D clerics only spent perhaps a third of their time healing. The rest of the time they were either busy being wrath of their god/strengthening allies, or spreading the faith/offering insight. Full time healers were men-in-cloth type NPCs who normally died horrible deaths at the hands of monsters/bandits/demons.

velynna

Oh man. I am headed for a horrible demise.

tyrtallow

Surely your healing also buffs people?

velynna

Mostly not. Not if we're talking AS and healing word. The buff from a HW in divine mode with linked spirit isn't huge. With sunburst, it might be okay, but SB doesn't heal for much. Hollowed ground is pretty awesome. However, the main debuffs/buffs outside of the daily don't heal.

spani4rd

velynna wrote: »

Mostly not. Not if we're talking AS and healing word. The buff from a HW in divine mode with linked spirit isn't huge. With sunburst, it might be okay, but SB doesn't heal for much. Hollowed ground is pretty awesome. However, the main debuffs/buffs outside of the daily don't heal.

SB may not heal for a ton but it does provide great AP/DP gain and it procs just about everything we possibly can (foresight, linked spirit, rising hope, enduring relief, invigorated healing, repurpose sould)

You want to sit back and just shoot big heals at people? I honestly don't know why. I actually like the healing aproach they've taken in this game. It's not so much about actuallying healing as much as it is about providing damage reduction and the healing is then just secondary, I also enjoy the pasive healing therefore letting me do other stuff.
I admit sometimes some of the stuff can be quite frustrating. Like the fact that we need to deal damage and continously attack to keep up divine power even though maybe a lot of spells don't do any damage, making this task that much harder

elewyndyl

velynna wrote: »

Mostly not. Not if we're talking AS and healing word. The buff from a HW in divine mode with linked spirit isn't huge. With sunburst, it might be okay, but SB doesn't heal for much. Hollowed ground is pretty awesome. However, the main debuffs/buffs outside of the daily don't heal.

This is why I don't agree most posters in these threads. I don't think HW is great and almost never use it. Full disclosure what I prefer to use will not give, but it differs a lot depending on how much heal the party actually needs. AS yeah that goes without saying my favorite heal over time in Divine mode and if Divine power is emptied in worst case cast yellow AS. Yellow AS and blue AS is cumulative in PvP you get both effects if 2 Clerics cast them in the same area.

I think I will never post what exact spells/powers/feats I prefer, but rest assured that is not what the majority prefers.

velynna

Well, for me the main issue isn't about healing/debuffing contrast on a DC, anyway. It's the fact that CWs can essentially heal and debuff better than a DC, rendering them not only unnecessary to bring in a dungeon, but also less efficient (for an experienced group). I'm speaking as someone who has done 300+ CN runs on DC and CW.

If you think a DC shouldn't be necessary in a dungeon, that's fine.
If you think 70% of PvE groups will still need a DC, that's also fine. The no-DC groups are just a recent trend I've been noticing.

(To be honest, I'm far more choked about the healing depression suggested change in PvP, anyway. While some healing depression might be warranted, I would prefer to see it decreased from the original suggested amount for DC powers.)