Well, for me the main issue isn't about healing/debuffing contrast on a DC, anyway. It's the fact that CWs can essentially heal and debuff better than a DC, rendering them not only unnecessary to bring in a dungeon, but also less efficient (for an experienced group). I'm speaking as someone who has done 200+ CN runs on DC and CW.
If you think a DC shouldn't be necessary in a dungeon, that's fine.
If you think 70% of PvE groups will still need a DC, that's also fine. The no-DC groups are just a recent trend I've been noticing.
(To be honest, I'm far more choked about the healing depression suggested change in PvP, anyway. While some healing depression might be warranted, I would prefer to see it decreased from the original suggested amount for DC powers.)
I 100% agree with you on the healing depression issue for PvP(not valid in PvE). That is what worries me. I am not saying it is impossible to do Dungeons without Cleric. My Trickster Rogue that is 13,1k has done some T2 Dungeons without Cleric. Personally I always like more if there is Cleric with good gs that is useful and heals/buffs well etc.
I also think it can hurt the party if the Cleric is weak. I don't want some 9,0k healer even for an easy dungeon like Dwarf King Gauntlgrym Tier 2 Dungeon. However a good Cleric with at least fairly good gs and good build then I absolutely prefer to have such good Cleric with my Rogue.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
The kind of CWs that you described are less than 10 in the entire game. They are rather the exception, instead of being the rule. Of course, they seem common to you maybe since you play with them, but I played with most CWs in the game, from guys being lost in their stuff and not knowing what to do, to the average CW that doesn a "meh" job but you still kill boss, to the top CWs with huge DPS and months of experience and gear, and I can tell you real good CWs, the type that runs CN without heals, are not many at all.
Maybe in the future, with even better gear, we will see more CWs bruteforcing to this levels, but my guess is that CN farming won't last long, or it will become so easy that it won't be worth bothering. We already know that new dungeons one can farm won't be released - it is the BoP era.
These being said, I think the only way to make classes needed in dungeons is to create encounters that depend on their abilities. You might not wanna take a DC for example because of overall lower DPS, but you will have to, because party will take too much damage without one, or some boss will need a specific debuff and so on.
As long as the dungeons remain "generic" AoE fests, each class but the highest AoE DPS one is endangered.
The kind of CWs that you described are less than 10 in the entire game.
Mostly true. But as Sephine and I have demonstrated (as long-time DCs), you can still manage it on a CW alt with less than rank 7s, non-epic artefacts, the proper rotations, and the right build. The build just hasn't caught on yet, which is why only maybe around a dozen CWs do it regularly.
Agreed about creating dungeons with encounters that depend on class abilities.
I've been a long time DC and love playing it. Respec'd multiple times. With my current debuff build, I know I contribute hugely in pve. High Prophet, greater plague fire, divine glow, hallowed ground, & astral shield make dungeons go pretty quickly. Even with my great debuffs, and healing, it's hard to find groups lately. As more and more of the other classes maximize Life Steal and Regen, I'm needed less and less. If I could do more dps, I'm sure I'd be needed more.
Since I'm not currently built for pvp, my abilities are limited. Debuffing in pvp is fine as long as I'm not the target from enemy fire. Dodging works if timing is there, but it's hard to survive multiple attacks 1 on 1 from any class. I thought using Anointed Armor would help, but it seems a 33 or 34 armor class doesn't make me tanky enough. You would think an AC that high would affect overall defense in a huge way, but not enough. I would have to get new enchants, new gear, & respec skills and feats to be somewhat useful in pvp. Even if I rebuild for pvp, most groups don't want DC's in pvp. With a pvp build of high defense and support, I would still have value in pve, but my dps would be even lower than now, so I'd be less affective in pve.
The future of the DC class is looking grim. Currently, experienced players don't need a DC to heal themselves. I suggest the Dev's relook at the DC class and make a new paragon path that fits for both pve and pvp.
I am new DC
started 3 months ago
i was welcomed in almost any T2 party, even as a 9K beginner
there are some bosses that don't need DC, and the last one VT might be one of them
but most ppl need DC for the adds, most groups die very fast if i legg or need to answer the phone
for the majority of ppl, DC is still a must. (i never finished castle never all the way, but the adds hit realy hard there, i didn't knew its possible to do it without a DC)
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The kind of CWs that you described are less than 10 in the entire game.
little bit of hyperbole but I understand what you're saying. maybe 5% of CW can do this. drastically more than 10 but I understand where you are coming from.
I really admire u all, i cant even survive a normal T2 dungeon with pug, especially T2.5 CN, MC, VT...
Luckily i can pvp to get my gear in future, but DC heals is further nerf too.... can i do my healing in pvp? i love saving others and let enemies frustrate...
It's never easy at the start jazzfong, but once you get over that hurdle the rest just comes naturally. I wouldn't place too much trust on Preview changes in PvP atm. Consider there have been major changes since the first patch notes.
I guess I should share my own experience, since I already bothered to and since I've never really been a fan of all the "I have a secret theory/discovery/build" innuendo. The last few weeks have been different for me. I play mostly with friends, and most of them have started experimenting with lifesteal/regen. Overall the effect is that nowadays, at the start of every dungeon run, I usually start by asking the same question: "do you want me to slot A.Shield?" Some days when my friends are too tired to try their crazy antics I run A.Shield, but more and more often I no longer don't.
Very recently we ran Karru without A.Shield. I had Sunburst/Searing Light/Chains as my encounters and used Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor. We managed just fine. It guess it was at that point that I realized that, IMO, the devs have been slowly but surely trying to wean us out of our dependency on A.Shield.
Note that I still play as a DC should - I take my job of keeping mitigation/buffs up seriously and use Soothing Light/Divine Armor for emergencies with A.Seal as my main heal, but when I do runs with my friends I rarely use A.Shield anymore. Most of them are 14k-ish GS, all in at least R7s, everyone with three blue/purple artifacts.
So yes, I do feel that these days it seems less and less healing is required, but to make the connection that that is going to have an adverse effect on the future of the DC class is a bit of a stretch.
Now before healbots aka faithful DCs start complaining I've also been experimenting with my own faithful DC on T1s. Luckily everyone seems to want to run the occasional CC/Mad Dragon these days, including my friends, so I've been doing it without A.Shield when possible. As far as I can see the results are good - even Faithful DCs don't "need" A.Shield on semi-geared, experienced parties anymore, mostly because the Moontouched Feat cheats by giving everyone free healing and so they don't need to cast Divine Armor as often (as a precaution or for emergencies) as my virtuous cleric. They don't even need A.Seal if they can spam Brand of the Sun, which means more divine HW spam = healing + faster AP gain. I ran HW (spamming normal/divine modes as often as I can, with Divine Fortune slotted), Bastion of Health (divine mode for Linked Spirit/Foresight), Sacred Flame and A.Seal/Brand of the Sun (on mobs with lots of adds Brand actually helps more thanks to the extra divinity generation, which allows for indefinite Healing Word spam -> healing + rapid AP gain) and Chains/Searing Light.
Now to some DCs running A.Shield may seem close to unthinkable, but I seriously recommend learning to work without it -when convenient- (ie, on a party with 14kish GS members where everyone has some lifesteal/regen AND the SF enchantment, healing artifacts and pots) because it's starting to look like the current meta is changing and A.Shield is going to be just another power we should only slot when we need to.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
It's never easy at the start jazzfong, but once you get over that hurdle the rest just comes naturally. I wouldn't place too much trust on Preview changes in PvP atm. Consider there have been major changes since the first patch notes.
I guess I should share my own experience, since I already bothered to and since I've never really been a fan of all the "I have a secret theory/discovery/build" innuendo. The last few weeks have been different for me. I play mostly with friends, and most of them have started experimenting with lifesteal/regen. Overall the effect is that nowadays, at the start of every dungeon run, I usually start by asking the same question: "do you want me to slot A.Shield?" Some days when my friends are too tired to try their crazy antics I run A.Shield, but more and more often I no longer don't.
Very recently we ran Karru without A.Shield. I had Sunburst/Searing Light/Chains as my encounters and used Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor. We managed just fine. It guess it was at that point that I realized that, IMO, the devs have been slowly but surely trying to wean us out of our dependency on A.Shield.
Note that I still play as a DC should - I take my job of keeping mitigation/buffs up seriously and use Soothing Light/Divine Armor for emergencies with A.Seal as my main heal, but when I do runs with my friends I rarely use A.Shield anymore. Most of them are 14k-ish GS, all in at least R7s, everyone with three blue/purple artifacts.
So yes, I do feel that these days it seems less and less healing is required, but to make the connection that that is going to have an adverse effect on the future of the DC class is a bit of a stretch.
Now before healbots aka faithful DCs start complaining I've also been experimenting with my own faithful DC on T1s. Luckily everyone seems to want to run the occasional CC/Mad Dragon these days, including my friends, so I've been doing it without A.Shield when possible. As far as I can see the results are good - even Faithful DCs don't "need" A.Shield on semi-geared, experienced parties anymore, mostly because the Moontouched Feat cheats by giving everyone free healing and so they don't need to cast Divine Armor as often (as a precaution or for emergencies) as my virtuous cleric. They don't even need A.Seal if they can spam Brand of the Sun, which means more divine HW spam = healing + faster AP gain. I ran HW (spamming normal/divine modes as often as I can, with Divine Fortune slotted), Bastion of Health (divine mode for Linked Spirit/Foresight), Sacred Flame and A.Seal/Brand of the Sun (on mobs with lots of adds Brand actually helps more thanks to the extra divinity generation, which allows for indefinite Healing Word spam -> healing + rapid AP gain) and Chains/Searing Light.
tbh, when I met my current guild I was the classical faithful cleric, however, now I have branched out in a similar fashion to you however I think healing is still nice
Depending on who I'm with sometimes we just run straight to every boss (ToS) with all the adds on us so I need to run full heals and trust my party to dps or we will definitely wipe
(Once one of my guildies even pulled all of the mobs in the first part of CN before the door before spider.... was like a parade of wights and soldiers->scarred for life)
Other times if we're feeling casual and take smaller groups and I go either full dps (chains,daunting, searing light) or half dps (searing light, heal word, chains/daunting/AS).
TL;DR you can totally run without AS, but to do crazy pulling you still need it and your dailies to survive
(Once one of my guildies even pulled all of the mobs in the first part of CN before the door before spider.... was like a parade of wights and soldiers->scarred for life)
That had to be bige... lol
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
little bit of hyperbole but I understand what you're saying. maybe 5% of CW can do this. drastically more than 10 but I understand where you are coming from.
3 man, no healer Draco? Hmm. OK maybe I personally don't know more than 10, but I can completely understand this is my personal experience.
Thing is, the difference between the CWs capable of this stuff and others at basically same gear levels (perfects, rank 8+, purple companions etc.) is HUGE. I used to have a very good CN farming group not long ago which fell apart, with 3-4 mins draco runs and so on. After this happened I ran with all kinds of (geared...) groups, and my experiences are usually bad, with some exceptions. Low damage, swamped with adds, adds running all over the place, too squishy, DCs healing way subpar and I can go on.
So even at high levels of gear and experienced players, even in 5, Draco is many times a tough challenge (read: needs 3-4 wipes before a painful kill with 30-40 pots consumed).
This is why I think that the CWs that are capable of 3 manning draco are extremely low in numbers and quite an exception.
DCs still need a safer future (as I described earlier, make dungeons that actually require classes or no progress), but overall, they are not endangered yet. The guys having these issues are in top elite guilds with 20-40 active players or so. Rest of Neverwinter's population is in dire need of decent healers.
Quick list of my views on the DC class as it is right now:
1. Life Steal makes DC moot. Typically games are really careful about putting such an attribute on gear. NWO layers it on thick, even on DC gear (which I took as a bad joke by the designers).
2. Cleanse is a DC feature solving a problem that doesn't really exist.
3. Low DPS. I mean, if I'm gonna play in a party most of my encounters are already stuck in buff/debuff and AS. Why are the DC combat encounters so poor? There is nothing worse than getting stuck facing an add in an epic boss fight knowing you can't even dream of doing it serious damage let alone dropping it.
4. PvP isn't a good place for a Cleric. Now they are talking about further nerfing healing in PvP to "make the games last longer". I know it is a poorly worded excuse to hide a nerf targeted at another class. But it will be the last coffin nail for DCs in PvP. They should just prohibit DCs from entering PvP matches to save them the distress.
5. Cleric needs some CC. Or to make them really unique and not a CW wannabe: more "traps" like Blazing Chains. Just something to slow, confuse, and hinder mobs in battle. On on this subject of Chains: why is it not an interrupt? I wouldn't expect it to stop a boss from doing their thing, but it sure would be nice to clean up some of those overlapping red areas produced by flocks of adds. I think I read they are giving that ability to HRs so it seems possible for DC too.
6. Divinity. Wow I hate it. I have one good use for it that I always want it for (AS) and one rare use (FF). The fix to Sun Burst to prevent tabbing for Linked Spirit kinda kills the need to hit the Tab as often for sure. If the devs wanted a quick way to perk up the DC class just make the Tab key the Astral Shield button (always Divinity Mode version so it eats a full pip still). That would also free up an encounter slot!! AS would still need a cooldown of some sort though to prevent AS spamming.
As it stands I'm really broken hearted over the DC. I really don't know what to do with him at the moment.
What do you mean strict-en? Let me lay everything out simply because I'm clueless.
As I understand it:
Linked Spirit procs on heals in divine mode.
Currently cast-tab counts as a 'heal in divine mode' even though the divine encounter is not used, and a pip is not drained.
This may be an exploit or a misworded tool-tip.
Are any of those things currently incorrect, or slated to be changed soon? If so I would say my buffing cleric is F'd. Sunburst loses half its utility, and is only good for AP gain and incidental heals. Linked spirit procs only from divine astral shield (if that? not sure if it counts). No idea where to go from there.
What do you mean strict-en? Let me lay everything out simply because I'm clueless.
As I understand it:
Linked Spirit procs on heals in divine mode.
Currently cast-tab counts as a 'heal in divine mode' even though the divine encounter is not used, and a pip is not drained.
This may be an exploit or a misworded tool-tip.
Are any of those things currently incorrect, or slated to be changed soon? If so I would say my buffing cleric is F'd. Sunburst loses half its utility, and is only good for AP gain and incidental heals. Linked spirit procs only from divine astral shield (if that? not sure if it counts). No idea where to go from there.
Looks like you've got it right. On the test shard you can cast and then tab still, but SB won't proc LS like that anymore. So another feat that clerics can drop, unless your buffing LS at 4x or 5x then it's really not that great. Cast then tab should still work for the temp hp buff for AC paragorn path though.
DO is getting worse, might have to respec to AC. I'll have to see what happens
If D'd AS procs it, though, that's not tooo bad. That and forgemasters would let you keep up LS more or less constantly (when it matters) on a melee-happy party. Less good for a HR/CW "stop spreading out fffffs" party, admittedly.
4. PvP isn't a good place for a Cleric. Now they are talking about further nerfing healing in PvP to "make the games last longer". I know it is a poorly worded excuse to hide a nerf targeted at another class. But it will be the last coffin nail for DCs in PvP. They should just prohibit DCs from entering PvP matches to save them the distress.
I haven't been able to get to the test shard because of lack of time. However I've been thinking about this and I think DC's may just have to adjust how they go about pvp.
AS will still have a purpose because of the dr
Divine Glow will be more useful to buff and debuff
Then perhaps the feated versions of exaltation and blessing of battle to buff your allies more along with annointed army of course.
Like I said I haven't been able to test this out, but going for more of a buff / debuff support role rather than a healing role may be more important at that point.
Sad day for DCs. It doesn't work on Bastion of Healing either.
You mean if you cast and tab into divinty mode right? Well I guess that would of been the only other way to reliably share LS with 3-4 member of your party at a time. Honestly though BoH is awful, I wouldn't run it just to get LS procs.
Doesn't leave much for impressive feats though...I mean I'm already running invigorated healing just because I was like well whatever there's nothing better. Honestly though most of the other available feats are crappy though...I guess ethereal boon or divine advantage would be my best bets, or go for AC path possibly as I'd said before
You say we're being pushed towards a buff build, but a buff is what's getting nerfed to ****. I'm not sure what they want us to be doing with this class.
Quick list of my views on the DC class as it is right now:
5. Cleric needs some CC. Or to make them really unique and not a CW wannabe: more "traps" like Blazing Chains. Just something to slow, confuse, and hinder mobs in battle. On on this subject of Chains: why is it not an interrupt? I wouldn't expect it to stop a boss from doing their thing, but it sure would be nice to clean up some of those overlapping red areas produced by flocks of adds. I think I read they are giving that ability to HRs so it seems possible for DC too.
Ya, CC is just one of the most funny stuff with clerics among many others. Leader class. The main ability - at least it is said so - for clerics is Wisdom, which gives among others control bonus. And the only CC power is chains... 28 wisdom means your chains control for something like 1.2 sec instead of just 1 sec. So powerful.
Wisdom also gives CC resist. Great. 28 wisdom means a DC is being controlled just about 80% of the base control time. Great and powerful. Just forget that cleric has zero CC immunity skills unlike pretty much every other class (directly, like unstoppable, ITC, villains menace - or indirectly like being in stealth or controlling the enemies to prevent being controlled).
However I've been thinking about this and I think DC's may just have to adjust how they go about pvp.
That is the funny (sad) part. If you come up with a solid way of making Clerics viable in PvP it will just start another outcry of "I can'tz two shot clerics" and "unkillable clerics" which will probably result in yet another nerf that effects clerics in both PvP and PvE. Classic example is GCtrl's cleric builds. I don't blame the guy for being smart and coming up with some interesting ways to use them in PvP.
In the end I wish they just focused on match making, new maps, and new modes of PvP. They could have run some contest for Foundary editors to make news maps and let players pick the best. A MOBA style map and mode would be awesome. But I'm rambling off topic probably and saying nothing others haven't said for like a year now.
tbh i always thought LS was a parlor trick rather than a good feat. It lasts for such a small duration and since you're already capped at most stats it only really helps in power and defensive stats... no thanks!
Ten seconds is generally long enough that you could constantly have it up. But yeah, it's so easy to reach the soft cap on most stats that it isn't game-changing.
Ten seconds is generally long enough that you could constantly have it up. But yeah, it's so easy to reach the soft cap on most stats that it isn't game-changing.
Try explaining that to the average DC in zone chat; people think that this feat is the best thing since two-ply bathroom tissue, and they really don't want any inconvenient math to convince them otherwise.
It's one of the better buffing feats, but it gets overrated because players often assume that big stat numbers = commensurately big returns.
Honestly though BoH is awful, I wouldn't run it just to get LS procs.
Honestly I think HW is awful and still many players use that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Let him use what he wants and it is subjective taste. We even have a minority that think AS sucks(I don't and I like AS).
As to subject. In PvE Cleric will be very useful. In PvP we are royally screwed with 50% healing nerfs(only in PvP) in the future to come. I really hope some genious create a Cleric build adjusted to those changes that is not a fat Halfing or Dwarf with CON maxed so no extreme TANK build for me though solid defense is good to have.
Honestly I think HW is awful and still many players use that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Let him use what he wants and it is subjective taste. We even have a minority that think AS sucks(I don't and I like AS).
As to subject. In PvE Cleric will be very useful. In PvP we are royally screwed with 50% healing nerfs(only in PvP) in the future to come. I really hope some genious create a Cleric build adjusted to those changes that is not a fat Halfing or Dwarf with CON maxed so no extreme TANK build for me though solid defense is good to have.
The Virtuous tree needs some love. I run a Virtuous half-Orc cleric with nice rounded up stats and high STR but:
- Holy Resolve - I use it, it procs, it's useful but 5 minutes cooldown? That's a lot!
- Domain Synergy: very small bonus, double it up to start making it worthwile
- Battlewise: the bonus is extremely small. Make it more like 5% each step, now that would start make it interesting (maybe)
- Initiate of Faith - useless, the gain is so small there is no sense to use it
- Templar's Domain: procs every 5 minutes for 5 secs - as it is it's a joke
Virtuous tree:
- Desperate Renewal: complete waste, is there anyone that uses it at all? If this affected ANY healing ability, now that would be useful
- Rising Hope: Waste of points as 2/3 points in here already give you enough uptime, problem is the other feat to advance the tree is mostly pointless
- Restoration Mastery: procs on critical heals only for a max 5% defence - this amount is extremely small, why not make it something more meaningfull in the range of 15%?
- Second Sight: I use it, it's nice but...it procs only if the target is not killed - maybe increase it to double? that would be more like it
- Nimbus of light: this one's actually good!
- Focused poise: why on non crits only? Sacred Flame is quicker and generates more DP, give Lance some edge! 10% flat on all lance damage would be much more useful, especially consiering it has longer animation and it's easier to screw up and get caught in the red while casting
- Disciple of Divine Lore: this one is actually good, nice damage boost and forces me to slot it so I heal for more
- Strength of the Gods: never used it as I run with Hallowed + Flame Strike (or Hammer) so meh
- Cycle of Change: convoluted, I don't know if it actually does anything. Something simpler would be better,like maybe each x seconds your encounter does double damage? That would be awesome
Anyway I still like my Orc and doing my T1 for now. Will see what happens, just hope the DCs will get some attention.
Comments
I also think it can hurt the party if the Cleric is weak. I don't want some 9,0k healer even for an easy dungeon like Dwarf King Gauntlgrym Tier 2 Dungeon. However a good Cleric with at least fairly good gs and good build then I absolutely prefer to have such good Cleric with my Rogue.
Maybe in the future, with even better gear, we will see more CWs bruteforcing to this levels, but my guess is that CN farming won't last long, or it will become so easy that it won't be worth bothering. We already know that new dungeons one can farm won't be released - it is the BoP era.
These being said, I think the only way to make classes needed in dungeons is to create encounters that depend on their abilities. You might not wanna take a DC for example because of overall lower DPS, but you will have to, because party will take too much damage without one, or some boss will need a specific debuff and so on.
As long as the dungeons remain "generic" AoE fests, each class but the highest AoE DPS one is endangered.
Mostly true. But as Sephine and I have demonstrated (as long-time DCs), you can still manage it on a CW alt with less than rank 7s, non-epic artefacts, the proper rotations, and the right build. The build just hasn't caught on yet, which is why only maybe around a dozen CWs do it regularly.
Agreed about creating dungeons with encounters that depend on class abilities.
Since I'm not currently built for pvp, my abilities are limited. Debuffing in pvp is fine as long as I'm not the target from enemy fire. Dodging works if timing is there, but it's hard to survive multiple attacks 1 on 1 from any class. I thought using Anointed Armor would help, but it seems a 33 or 34 armor class doesn't make me tanky enough. You would think an AC that high would affect overall defense in a huge way, but not enough. I would have to get new enchants, new gear, & respec skills and feats to be somewhat useful in pvp. Even if I rebuild for pvp, most groups don't want DC's in pvp. With a pvp build of high defense and support, I would still have value in pve, but my dps would be even lower than now, so I'd be less affective in pve.
The future of the DC class is looking grim. Currently, experienced players don't need a DC to heal themselves. I suggest the Dev's relook at the DC class and make a new paragon path that fits for both pve and pvp.
started 3 months ago
i was welcomed in almost any T2 party, even as a 9K beginner
there are some bosses that don't need DC, and the last one VT might be one of them
but most ppl need DC for the adds, most groups die very fast if i legg or need to answer the phone
for the majority of ppl, DC is still a must. (i never finished castle never all the way, but the adds hit realy hard there, i didn't knew its possible to do it without a DC)
Luckily i can pvp to get my gear in future, but DC heals is further nerf too.... can i do my healing in pvp? i love saving others and let enemies frustrate...
I guess I should share my own experience, since I already bothered to and since I've never really been a fan of all the "I have a secret theory/discovery/build" innuendo. The last few weeks have been different for me. I play mostly with friends, and most of them have started experimenting with lifesteal/regen. Overall the effect is that nowadays, at the start of every dungeon run, I usually start by asking the same question: "do you want me to slot A.Shield?" Some days when my friends are too tired to try their crazy antics I run A.Shield, but more and more often I no longer don't.
Very recently we ran Karru without A.Shield. I had Sunburst/Searing Light/Chains as my encounters and used Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor. We managed just fine. It guess it was at that point that I realized that, IMO, the devs have been slowly but surely trying to wean us out of our dependency on A.Shield.
Note that I still play as a DC should - I take my job of keeping mitigation/buffs up seriously and use Soothing Light/Divine Armor for emergencies with A.Seal as my main heal, but when I do runs with my friends I rarely use A.Shield anymore. Most of them are 14k-ish GS, all in at least R7s, everyone with three blue/purple artifacts.
So yes, I do feel that these days it seems less and less healing is required, but to make the connection that that is going to have an adverse effect on the future of the DC class is a bit of a stretch.
Now before healbots aka faithful DCs start complaining I've also been experimenting with my own faithful DC on T1s. Luckily everyone seems to want to run the occasional CC/Mad Dragon these days, including my friends, so I've been doing it without A.Shield when possible. As far as I can see the results are good - even Faithful DCs don't "need" A.Shield on semi-geared, experienced parties anymore, mostly because the Moontouched Feat cheats by giving everyone free healing and so they don't need to cast Divine Armor as often (as a precaution or for emergencies) as my virtuous cleric. They don't even need A.Seal if they can spam Brand of the Sun, which means more divine HW spam = healing + faster AP gain. I ran HW (spamming normal/divine modes as often as I can, with Divine Fortune slotted), Bastion of Health (divine mode for Linked Spirit/Foresight), Sacred Flame and A.Seal/Brand of the Sun (on mobs with lots of adds Brand actually helps more thanks to the extra divinity generation, which allows for indefinite Healing Word spam -> healing + rapid AP gain) and Chains/Searing Light.
Now to some DCs running A.Shield may seem close to unthinkable, but I seriously recommend learning to work without it -when convenient- (ie, on a party with 14kish GS members where everyone has some lifesteal/regen AND the SF enchantment, healing artifacts and pots) because it's starting to look like the current meta is changing and A.Shield is going to be just another power we should only slot when we need to.
tbh, when I met my current guild I was the classical faithful cleric, however, now I have branched out in a similar fashion to you however I think healing is still nice
Depending on who I'm with sometimes we just run straight to every boss (ToS) with all the adds on us so I need to run full heals and trust my party to dps or we will definitely wipe
(Once one of my guildies even pulled all of the mobs in the first part of CN before the door before spider.... was like a parade of wights and soldiers->scarred for life)
Other times if we're feeling casual and take smaller groups and I go either full dps (chains,daunting, searing light) or half dps (searing light, heal word, chains/daunting/AS).
TL;DR you can totally run without AS, but to do crazy pulling you still need it and your dailies to survive
That had to be bige... lol
3 man, no healer Draco? Hmm. OK maybe I personally don't know more than 10, but I can completely understand this is my personal experience.
Thing is, the difference between the CWs capable of this stuff and others at basically same gear levels (perfects, rank 8+, purple companions etc.) is HUGE. I used to have a very good CN farming group not long ago which fell apart, with 3-4 mins draco runs and so on. After this happened I ran with all kinds of (geared...) groups, and my experiences are usually bad, with some exceptions. Low damage, swamped with adds, adds running all over the place, too squishy, DCs healing way subpar and I can go on.
So even at high levels of gear and experienced players, even in 5, Draco is many times a tough challenge (read: needs 3-4 wipes before a painful kill with 30-40 pots consumed).
This is why I think that the CWs that are capable of 3 manning draco are extremely low in numbers and quite an exception.
DCs still need a safer future (as I described earlier, make dungeons that actually require classes or no progress), but overall, they are not endangered yet. The guys having these issues are in top elite guilds with 20-40 active players or so. Rest of Neverwinter's population is in dire need of decent healers.
1. Life Steal makes DC moot. Typically games are really careful about putting such an attribute on gear. NWO layers it on thick, even on DC gear (which I took as a bad joke by the designers).
2. Cleanse is a DC feature solving a problem that doesn't really exist.
3. Low DPS. I mean, if I'm gonna play in a party most of my encounters are already stuck in buff/debuff and AS. Why are the DC combat encounters so poor? There is nothing worse than getting stuck facing an add in an epic boss fight knowing you can't even dream of doing it serious damage let alone dropping it.
4. PvP isn't a good place for a Cleric. Now they are talking about further nerfing healing in PvP to "make the games last longer". I know it is a poorly worded excuse to hide a nerf targeted at another class. But it will be the last coffin nail for DCs in PvP. They should just prohibit DCs from entering PvP matches to save them the distress.
5. Cleric needs some CC. Or to make them really unique and not a CW wannabe: more "traps" like Blazing Chains. Just something to slow, confuse, and hinder mobs in battle. On on this subject of Chains: why is it not an interrupt? I wouldn't expect it to stop a boss from doing their thing, but it sure would be nice to clean up some of those overlapping red areas produced by flocks of adds. I think I read they are giving that ability to HRs so it seems possible for DC too.
6. Divinity. Wow I hate it. I have one good use for it that I always want it for (AS) and one rare use (FF). The fix to Sun Burst to prevent tabbing for Linked Spirit kinda kills the need to hit the Tab as often for sure. If the devs wanted a quick way to perk up the DC class just make the Tab key the Astral Shield button (always Divinity Mode version so it eats a full pip still). That would also free up an encounter slot!! AS would still need a cooldown of some sort though to prevent AS spamming.
As it stands I'm really broken hearted over the DC. I really don't know what to do with him at the moment.
As I understand it:
Linked Spirit procs on heals in divine mode.
Currently cast-tab counts as a 'heal in divine mode' even though the divine encounter is not used, and a pip is not drained.
This may be an exploit or a misworded tool-tip.
Are any of those things currently incorrect, or slated to be changed soon? If so I would say my buffing cleric is F'd. Sunburst loses half its utility, and is only good for AP gain and incidental heals. Linked spirit procs only from divine astral shield (if that? not sure if it counts). No idea where to go from there.
Looks like you've got it right. On the test shard you can cast and then tab still, but SB won't proc LS like that anymore. So another feat that clerics can drop, unless your buffing LS at 4x or 5x then it's really not that great. Cast then tab should still work for the temp hp buff for AC paragorn path though.
DO is getting worse, might have to respec to AC. I'll have to see what happens
Sad day for DCs. It doesn't work on Bastion of Healing either.
Unfortunately, it doesn't.
AS will still have a purpose because of the dr
Divine Glow will be more useful to buff and debuff
Then perhaps the feated versions of exaltation and blessing of battle to buff your allies more along with annointed army of course.
Like I said I haven't been able to test this out, but going for more of a buff / debuff support role rather than a healing role may be more important at that point.
You mean if you cast and tab into divinty mode right? Well I guess that would of been the only other way to reliably share LS with 3-4 member of your party at a time. Honestly though BoH is awful, I wouldn't run it just to get LS procs.
Doesn't leave much for impressive feats though...I mean I'm already running invigorated healing just because I was like well whatever there's nothing better. Honestly though most of the other available feats are crappy though...I guess ethereal boon or divine advantage would be my best bets, or go for AC path possibly as I'd said before
Ya, CC is just one of the most funny stuff with clerics among many others. Leader class. The main ability - at least it is said so - for clerics is Wisdom, which gives among others control bonus. And the only CC power is chains... 28 wisdom means your chains control for something like 1.2 sec instead of just 1 sec. So powerful.
Wisdom also gives CC resist. Great. 28 wisdom means a DC is being controlled just about 80% of the base control time. Great and powerful. Just forget that cleric has zero CC immunity skills unlike pretty much every other class (directly, like unstoppable, ITC, villains menace - or indirectly like being in stealth or controlling the enemies to prevent being controlled).
That is the funny (sad) part. If you come up with a solid way of making Clerics viable in PvP it will just start another outcry of "I can'tz two shot clerics" and "unkillable clerics" which will probably result in yet another nerf that effects clerics in both PvP and PvE. Classic example is GCtrl's cleric builds. I don't blame the guy for being smart and coming up with some interesting ways to use them in PvP.
In the end I wish they just focused on match making, new maps, and new modes of PvP. They could have run some contest for Foundary editors to make news maps and let players pick the best. A MOBA style map and mode would be awesome. But I'm rambling off topic probably and saying nothing others haven't said for like a year now.
Ten seconds is generally long enough that you could constantly have it up. But yeah, it's so easy to reach the soft cap on most stats that it isn't game-changing.
Yep. It will remain to be seen if in competitive PvP, it will be more viable to bring another solid DPS class rather than a DC.
Try explaining that to the average DC in zone chat; people think that this feat is the best thing since two-ply bathroom tissue, and they really don't want any inconvenient math to convince them otherwise.
It's one of the better buffing feats, but it gets overrated because players often assume that big stat numbers = commensurately big returns.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
As to subject. In PvE Cleric will be very useful. In PvP we are royally screwed with 50% healing nerfs(only in PvP) in the future to come. I really hope some genious create a Cleric build adjusted to those changes that is not a fat Halfing or Dwarf with CON maxed so no extreme TANK build for me though solid defense is good to have.
The Virtuous tree needs some love. I run a Virtuous half-Orc cleric with nice rounded up stats and high STR but:
- Holy Resolve - I use it, it procs, it's useful but 5 minutes cooldown? That's a lot!
- Domain Synergy: very small bonus, double it up to start making it worthwile
- Battlewise: the bonus is extremely small. Make it more like 5% each step, now that would start make it interesting (maybe)
- Initiate of Faith - useless, the gain is so small there is no sense to use it
- Templar's Domain: procs every 5 minutes for 5 secs - as it is it's a joke
Virtuous tree:
- Desperate Renewal: complete waste, is there anyone that uses it at all? If this affected ANY healing ability, now that would be useful
- Rising Hope: Waste of points as 2/3 points in here already give you enough uptime, problem is the other feat to advance the tree is mostly pointless
- Restoration Mastery: procs on critical heals only for a max 5% defence - this amount is extremely small, why not make it something more meaningfull in the range of 15%?
- Second Sight: I use it, it's nice but...it procs only if the target is not killed - maybe increase it to double? that would be more like it
- Nimbus of light: this one's actually good!
- Focused poise: why on non crits only? Sacred Flame is quicker and generates more DP, give Lance some edge! 10% flat on all lance damage would be much more useful, especially consiering it has longer animation and it's easier to screw up and get caught in the red while casting
- Disciple of Divine Lore: this one is actually good, nice damage boost and forces me to slot it so I heal for more
- Strength of the Gods: never used it as I run with Hallowed + Flame Strike (or Hammer) so meh
- Cycle of Change: convoluted, I don't know if it actually does anything. Something simpler would be better,like maybe each x seconds your encounter does double damage? That would be awesome
Anyway I still like my Orc and doing my T1 for now. Will see what happens, just hope the DCs will get some attention.