Need vs. Greed

arecbarwin · January 2014

I say... always use "Need".

If you are in a group with all different classes it doesn't matter. There is a chance something for your class will drop and you use "need" to get it. If something for someone else's class drops they "need" for it and win it.

I have done dungeon runs like Fardelvers 4-5 times in the hour you have to do it and got 4 drops for my class and was able to need on them and won every time. I have also done Greed runs and have won 4-5 times in a row for items not for my class.

If you do "Need" runs you have the same chance to get something without the "Oops sorry didn't mean to Need" factor.

Am I wrong? What am I missing?

barbotineqc · January 2014

arecbarwin wrote: »

I say... always use "Need".

If you are in a group with all different classes it doesn't matter. There is a chance something for your class will drop and you use "need" to get it. If something for someone else's class drops they "need" for it and win it.

I have done dungeon runs like Fardelvers 4-5 times in the hour you have to do it and got 4 drops for my class and was able to need on them and won every time. I have also done Greed runs and have won 4-5 times in a row for items not for my class.

If you do "Need" runs you have the same chance to get something without the "Oops sorry didn't mean to Need" factor.

Am I wrong? What am I missing?

You can't Need for important loots if it's not your class so... why debate on that ?

and for enchantment etc, I always said in every MMO. If you need it, then need. It is, that simple.

bananachef · January 2014

BoE epics vary in prices between classes. With HR for the moment being generally more expensive than everything else. It's more equitable to agree to greed on everything so that everyone has the same expected AD from drops. Otherwise, you're either favoring particular classes either due to higher value drops or because (as you mentioned) there are multiple members of that class in the same group.

bananachef · January 2014

edit: whups double post?

bioshrike · January 2014

The problem, IMO, starts with how different people define "need". Some people take the stance that unless you can immediately use an item, and that said item will truly benefit you, then do NOT select need. Other people feel that if one of their alts can use the item, then it is ok to choose need. Still other people feel that if an item can be sold for ADs to put toward buying some other piece of gear that would improve their character, then it is ok to select need.

Personally, I don't care about any of that - the team, as a whole, should decide and stick to some common loot rules - maybe everyone can only select greed or pass, maybe everyone should select need if possible on all items. As long as some agreement can be reached, then I'm fine with it.

That being said, sometimes you have to keep people honest - which is why I'd like to see a "greed only" loot mode - so if it's agreed upon at the onset of a dungeon, everyone sticks to it, then that super rare sought-after item drops, one or more people don't "accidentally" choose need at the last moment...

vasdamas · January 2014

The point of greed run is everyone has equal chances for an expensive item, no matter what drops. Epic items from bosses in some epic dungeons usually cost a lot and the chance of drop is pretty low so it will be really unfair and dissapointing if someone just grabbed class item with Need and ran away with "kthxbye".

Sometimes it's really tempty to press Need (especially after some ninjas/kickers) on the item your class can use during the greed dungeons but fair is fair...you either here, with fair players that will respect you and come with you next time or you're behind the line, with the ******bags that have no respect for anyone IMO.

I wish there was an option to set "greed only" loot mode - _ -

barbotineqc · January 2014

I don't get what are you guys talking about...
if we use only need or greed... then just ask cryptic to change the window into "roll / pass"

bioshrike · January 2014

barbotineqc wrote: »

I don't get what are you guys talking about...

if we use only need or greed... then just ask cryptic to change the window into "roll / pass"

I agree, but need and greed add 2 different priority tiers - this may be useful in some circumstances, which is why I don't think it should be completely scrapped. Adding an option which simply disables need, (so greed or pass only), would probably be simpler to implement.

barbotineqc · January 2014

bioshrike wrote: »

I agree, but need and greed add 2 different priority tiers - this may be useful in some circumstances, which is why I don't think it should be completely scrapped. Adding an option which simply disables need, (so greed or pass only), would probably be simpler to implement.

But why do you want to do that ?

If I'm running a dungeon to get a loot BoP... if it drops for my class I will need on it ... why should somebody with an other class have a chance to get it ? It's no use to them !

barbotineqc · January 2014

Why , after 10 run waiting for the cleric boots to drop (if I'm the only cleric) should I greed with everybody and prey to get the loot ?

They will just refine it to get 5000k Astral and I will have to run 10 other dungeon to complete my set. It's absurd.

You just run the dungeon, need for you class, gear yourself, and next time see other class being geared and if your item drop again, then you greed with everybody because you don't need it anymore. That's logic

bioshrike · January 2014

barbotineqc wrote: »

But why do you want to do that ?

If I'm running a dungeon to get a loot BoP... if it drops for my class I will need on it ... why should somebody with an other class have a chance to get it ? It's no use to them !

AFAIK, boss drops aren't supposed to be BoP. It's the BoE stuff that I'm talking about...

dardove · January 2014

My preferred loot method is greeding on everything except for things you actually need for that character.

howdyyeow · January 2014

arecbarwin wrote: »

I say... always use "Need".

If you are in a group with all different classes it doesn't matter. There is a chance something for your class will drop and you use "need" to get it. If something for someone else's class drops they "need" for it and win it.

I have done dungeon runs like Fardelvers 4-5 times in the hour you have to do it and got 4 drops for my class and was able to need on them and won every time. I have also done Greed runs and have won 4-5 times in a row for items not for my class.

If you do "Need" runs you have the same chance to get something without the "Oops sorry didn't mean to Need" factor.

Am I wrong? What am I missing?

You probably solo queued or PUG for the Fardelvers, which is fine to Need if the members never mention anything about loot rules.

As for the 4-5 Greed rolls you won, it's luck and it happens.

But compared to Greed, Need is considered unfair as it completely nullifies the other members' chance of getting the loot, which is definitely why Greed has to stay.

charononus · January 2014

Needing on something if someone says anything about it being a greed run is a sure way to get on at least 4 players and their guilds blacklists. It's called ninja'ing. It's a despised action in every single mmo.

barbotineqc · January 2014

bioshrike wrote: »

AFAIK, boss drops aren't supposed to be BoP. It's the BoE stuff that I'm talking about...

Oh ok.
I didn't understand the topic I guess. I thought you were talking about... any dungeon, regular, elite, low level, high level....
Like for Epic Cragmire Crypts , final loot is BoP.

If it's for BoE loot then I agree with that :

bioshrike wrote: »

That being said, sometimes you have to keep people honest - which is why I'd like to see a "greed only" loot mode - so if it's agreed upon at the onset of a dungeon, everyone sticks to it, then that super rare sought-after item drops, one or more people don't "accidentally" choose need at the last moment...

maerwin · January 2014

If the group didn't agree on any rules, then nobody can blame you for needing
If you are in a group where everyone agreed on greed only rule and you need, then your word is worth less than a virtual item in a game. Congratulations.

All greed option is actually already in game (Round Robin), but it was bugged the last time I tried to select it for a dungeon group, so who knows.

bioshrike · January 2014

maerwin wrote: »

If the group didn't agree on any rules, then nobody can blame you for needing
If you are in a group where everyone agreed on greed only rule and you need, then your word is worth less than a virtual item in a game. Congratulations.

All greed option is actually already in game (Round Robin), but it was bugged the last time I tried to select it for a dungeon group, so who knows.

The problem with a round-robin system is that it can sort of be gamed; A person who is good at keeping track of whose turn it is to get a drop can pick up a piece of trash loot to shift things in their favor. A true greed-only system, (assuming a proper RNG), means that everyone has equal chance at all drops.

ordensmarschall · January 2014

The loot rule option has been bugged for a while. I prefer all greed runs, if something drops that you do need, for that character, you can always trade at the end of the dungeon.

vortix44 · January 2014

arecbarwin wrote: »

I have done dungeon runs like Fardelvers 4-5 times in the hour and won every time.

I'd say, if you can run this 5 times in an hour then you don't need the stuff.
Maybe somehow there should be a gs cap for the dungeons whose drops can be AH-ed, not only a minimal gs.
I always greed. And rarely win.

hobokenboy · January 2014

....and yet ANOTHER "issue" that would be moot if this game had been correctly designed with shared loot drops instead of an archaic, divisive system of need/greed. If a chest/end quest reward/and even regular quest rewards spawned for all group members instead of the one loot to be fought over system, this would not even be an issue.

IIRC, it's also another "issue" that has been under debate for......gosh, since "open beta". One that has been consistently swept under the rug, to boot. I predict that happening again.

beckylunatic · January 2014

maerwin wrote: »

All greed option is actually already in game (Round Robin), but it was bugged the last time I tried to select it for a dungeon group, so who knows.

Round Robin actually functions such that everyone gets loot drops that only they can see and there is no rolling, but it's not enabled for epic dungeons, even though I'm sure a lot of people would like a modified version of it so that boss drops could still be rolled for but that one guy that still picks up greens to sell wouldn't be constantly bothering everyone else with loot prompts.

Edit: Bioshrike misunderstands how Round Robin loot works in this game. I use it constantly while duoing with friends so we don't have to stop and roll every few seconds. Nobody sees loot except what's been predesignated as theirs.

rlrobr · January 2014

What I'd like to see is a "greed only" mode, set by the leader. This would prevend Ninja's from stealing loot. I really don't know why this hasn't been implemented yet...

vedran541 · January 2014

On Mindflayer we had simple rules, and everybody knew them (mostly)

Greed on epics
Need on shards

saini50990 · January 2014

man the 5 members of a party a running a full lengthy dungeon and the item drop which can be sold at hefty price and all running dungeon to get AD. nobody wants to loose AD and u expect that u need on item cause u want or u need it , wtfk everybody need AD too so they shld also get option to need on ur class item too which is not possible so greed loot rules are there, and y do u all nubs think that the rest 4 ppl r running the dungeon just so that some u can need on it and get away , and to ninja looters who need in my party or any other party they always and always HAMSTER get kicked ,not 1 time i mean it always cause we r not playing friends so that u get all item and the rest 4 leave empty handed.

and those guys who think need is fair than i think they have to always depend on q system , either there is greed or split in end game dungeons.

xxmantaraxx · January 2014

I am 100% behind an all greed system being added. To many times it it has been a greed run and the oops i hit need happens only on the best stuff. I want to focus on the dungeon not watching every loot roll to see if someone is going to ninja need the mark that everyone wants. Greed runs only work when everyone has integrity and living the pug life your not going to find it.

xelliz · January 2014

There should definitely be a greed only option.

However...personally I don't run Greed with PUGS. I don't know you and you don't know me...period. I will however run Greed with people from Legit, but even then people have to discuss this ahead of time, because I'm not assuming anything. Also, if I am running a dungeon for a specific item that doesn't come out of the DD box, I will have said this upfront and will not be rolling Greed.

yogokou · January 2014

Greed only is good for parties with more than one of the same class. People think that greed only is somehow more fair to everyone, but it only makes a difference if there are two or more of the same class in one party. Since everyone likes to stack CW/GWF to fast clear access, that's why premade groups insist on greed only. And everyone else follows along without understanding why.

saini50990 · January 2014

yogokou wrote: »

Greed only is good for parties with more than one of the same class. People think that greed only is somehow more fair to everyone, but it only makes a difference if there are two or more of the same class in one party. Since everyone likes to stack CW/GWF to fast clear access, that's why premade groups insist on greed only. And everyone else follows along without understanding why.

its just part of the reason the main reason is each class have different value for there equipments that's the main reason for greed.

ladymythos · January 2014

barbotineqc wrote: »

If you need it, then need. It is, that simple.

This, right here, is the solution to the Need/Greed roll. I honestly don't know why this is even an issue.

charononus · January 2014

ladymythos wrote: »

This, right here, is the solution to the Need/Greed roll. I honestly don't know why this is even an issue.

Because many people need on gear to sell and ninja it. It's why running with pugs is always a horrible experience.

dndmasterdark · January 2014

Myself I would never run in a "greed only" group. IMO people who do these runs do not like the chances of a drop that is not their class, thus they just want ALL stuff that is not their class so they can sell it. They want a chance at every drop and to me it is just that...being greedy. Sounds like they do not like luck as it is and want to shift it to their favor. They are not happy with the thought of stuff that drops for their class and they get it, they want a shot at it all. Again... seems strange to me. I cannot see need or greed ever change.... and it should not unless you are in a private party with preset "rules" If you pug accept it that people will need on everything. If you cannot handle people needing on loot then premake your special "greed only" group or solo the place and get it all to yourself.
Just my opinion though and it is just pixels. I do not even care about loot really that much... sure it is nice but having fun and focusing on myself being a productive part of the group makes more sense to me... so everyone wins.
May the luck of the roll and drop be with you ... if not well do not try to fix the dice... just deal with it and move on.
The whole issue about this boils down to one thing... the word "NEED" Some people may get confused and think...Well the guy does not really NEED the item because he is wearing it already BUT maybe he NEEDS to sell it. Maybe a better way to clarify the meaning behind this little word that throws people off.

Need vs. Greed

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