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Why is CW broken in PVE?
badeacelrau
Member Posts: 85
I simply cannot understand how come the control class outdamages every other class by such a huge amount and people aren't protesting all over the place. There is absolutely no way an equally geared class will outdamage a decent CW during a full dungeon run. Seriously, do you folks understand a CW is just supposed to control the crowds, so that the damage dealers can maximize their damage? Where am I pulling that from? From their name, from D&D legacy and from common sense, one class should fill one main role, not 2 roles better than everyone else.
Since the CWs are so efficient at clearing areas and they complement each other so well the entire dungeon system has been compromised. The GFs are extinct, TRs are a joke in terms of damage, the new addition HR seems like a dumbed down version who can't control and GWFs are optional. But every serious party has to run with at least 2 CWs, unless the characters are well over-geared for that dungeon.
For how long will you tolerate the current situation where the "looking for group" channel is flooded with messages like "LF 1/2/3 more CW for X" while other classes struggle to find their spot in parties?
Since the CWs are so efficient at clearing areas and they complement each other so well the entire dungeon system has been compromised. The GFs are extinct, TRs are a joke in terms of damage, the new addition HR seems like a dumbed down version who can't control and GWFs are optional. But every serious party has to run with at least 2 CWs, unless the characters are well over-geared for that dungeon.
For how long will you tolerate the current situation where the "looking for group" channel is flooded with messages like "LF 1/2/3 more CW for X" while other classes struggle to find their spot in parties?
Post edited by badeacelrau on
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http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?556361-Chalenge-to-developers-(Dare-to-do-it)&p=6799071&viewfull=1#post6799071
There needs to be some change to class balance to fit their roles so that stacking one class means you actually sacrifice something else as opposed to get additional value for your slot.
On my HR I have yet to meet a CW that can outdamage him in a full dungeon. Once so far, but I had to afk a bit. HR's do disgusting damage.
We also have a fiew GWF's in our guild that 99% of CW's couldnt even begin to match them in DPS.
I do agree they made it pretty easy for the "casual' masses to just stack a bunch of CW's... But its not necessary, when you have good members, like I mentioned above.
Whats bugged?
You must mean that Oak's heals are deflected by own team members right?
Or Marauders bugs if you use it when jumping?
Dont see anything in HR's that are bugged for damage...
Well you're wrong. For now, GWFs and HRs can compete on equal footing with CWs for damage done. Why you don't see this happening very often? Because there are what, 10 GWFs in this game specced purely for PvE? Also HRs are new, expect to see more and more pro-DPS from them. I believe even GFs can dish out lots and lots of damage.
Basically only DCs cannot approach CWs (because they lack a DPS oriented paragon) and TRs (because they need to be buffed with good trash clearing AoE abilities, or dungeon design changed)
And the others have considerably more survivability.
Is your head on straight? Every class gives up something in comparison to another. GWF's may not have the control CW's have, want to know what they do have? About 10x the fricken survivability while still doing the same if not better dps. TR's are a striker class, they shouldnt be doing large amounts of AoE because they absolutely crush everyone in terms of single-target damage. As for HR's? If your HR is remotely decent he should be dominating the CW in overall damage, both single-target and AoE........problem is that there are about 10,000 Legolas's and Drizzt's that only knnow how to drool on their keyboards.
My suggestion is instead of whining about CW's learn to actually play your class properly........
Hence why stacking more CWs works best for almost every dungeon save a few.
Also, CWs aren't exactly squishy. I should know, playing my CW in melee most of the time, dealing most damage and not dying often at all.
It's not a moot point, it pains my brain every time I read one of your arguments, where do you get your logic from. GWF's have superior dps and superior survivability in exchange for less control, why isn't that fact registering with you? TR's have both control and survivability while having the highest single-target by a large margin.
CW's work best in PUGS because this game is filled with idiots and scrubs that have barely any idea how to actually play the game. A garbage CW is always going to be better than a garbage GWF because at least the CW can disable something while dripping slobber on his keys, the GWF will just die.
That is actually more or less what I said. Except you don't seem to have understood my point that with sufficient control, the impact of having survivability is negligible, as a direct result of enemies being controlled.
GWFs deal superior damage if there are 2-4 targets being fought at a time. CWs will deal more damage to a single target and 5+ targets. What hampers GWFs in dungeons is that there is a ton of mobs which greatly favors CWs as the majority of useful powers have no or a very high target cap.
As an example, you would likely be able to complete Pirate King or Valindra's Tower (excluding Valindra fight) much faster and with greater ease with 3-4 CWs than you could with 3-4 GWFs.
You don't see people bring 2-3x TR, 2-3x GWF, etc. Why? Because you are at a disadvantage taking multiples of pretty much any other class. Sure a TR might do more single target damage, but you're not going to do nearly as well taking 3 of em as taking 3 CWs and there is basically a penalty for taking more than 1 in a group with lack of stacking DF.
I believe this issue among others stems from balancing around PVP and not PVE.
This is no issue at all.
I have to say this again:
- tank class, good to very good survivability-->LOWER damage, to compensate
- squishy ranged class, low (comparable) survivability-->HIGHER damage, to compensate
Each class should have DIFFERENT forms of CC that complement each other. Blame the devs that their game is not (yet?) sophisticated enough.
Let's be honest with the situation for a bit here. This IS an MMO. It still has the archetype of Ranged DPS, basically the mage class, robe-clad squishiness with lots of spell power. This class was always the cannon in MMOs and usually RPGs to a larger extent. Weren't enough nerfs already to the class?!?
- nerf shield to 5 targets
- nerf shield AP generation
- nerf EF/Mastery AP generation
- nerf Chill Strike Mastery Ap generation (I think)
- ninja nerf Shard damage
- "nerf" dungeon encounters that made CWs useful specifically so that a CW would not be useful in that aspect any longer
If your issue is that CWs are too good in PvE, than it is because the dungeons are constructed without any imagination whatsoever. Change the "more adds, more red" paradigm, add spell immune mobs, remove most of the weak trash and add elite trash with distinct capabilities that would require a TR or G(W)F to tank/DPS them down.
Pretty basic.
Thanks for your views nwnghost.
I personally do not think you should take a nerf to any class, and also think gwf pretty good now (modulo2). But there is an example how these discussions about nerfs / buffs / "broken games" are totally biased.
obs: the gwf has a higher damage NOW. module2. good job to the devs.
only missing players from other classes recognize their advantages and disadvantages, having the good sense to not be screaming for nerfs because of pvp.
or are two weights, two measures?
I certainly agree that dungeon design is part of the problem, however the real issue still lies within class balance.
In terms of the basics, this is how it should be from a design/balance standpoint:
GF - very tanky, low damage
GWF - can hold ground, moderate-high damage
TR - moderately squishy, high damage
CW - squishy but having a lot of control powers, low-moderate damage at range
HR - moderately squishy, low control but moderate-high damage at range and melee due to availability of both
This is what the game is currently like:
GF - tanky (but not very), low-moderate damage [main issue is guard meter and low softcaps preventing it from being more tanky]
GWF - tanky (same as GF, if not more), moderate-high damage [main issue is potentially too tanky due to low softcaps being easy to attain whilst keeping damage high. Could use some easing of target caps. Deep Gash only being critical damage is a bug that needs to be fixed]
TR - moderately squishy, high damage [pretty much the ideal state, though stealth a bit too easy for non-stealth builds that are high dps]
CW - moderately squishy, a lot of control powers, high damage [equipment makes this class less squishy than it should be. powers are not only controlling but also dealing high amounts of damage. to address, should reduce damage of powers that have significant control and ease cap on control powers to compensate]
HR - moderately squishy, high damage [damage being at very high levels is primarily due to some unfixed bugs, once these are addressed, it will be fairly balanced]
One major issue that has arisen with module 2 in particular is that with artifacts and active companions, anyone can reach softcaps on defensive stats easily, so that the difference in tankiness between a GF and a TR (example) becomes fairly minor, whilst the dps class can still dish out serious damage, which the tank class cannot.
One of the changes I hope for in that regard is to make each point in defense/deflect/regeneration/lifesteal grant less %effect but the diminishing returns kick in a lot later. That way, stacking a lot of defense becomes comparatively more worthwhile and the difference is more pronounced.
Again: I came to play this game to be a ranged spellcaster mage-type character. There's some CC to perform as well? Great!
But my primary purpose in this game is to deal great AoE damage.
Do I want CW to top charts and be the best damage dealer in the game?
No, I think TR, HR, GWF and CW if damage specced, at the same levels of gear and experience should all compete for the top spot.
Take my damage away, and I'll be gone to find another game where I can play a mage ranged spell DPS.
Any nerf's to cw dps should be done only once they release something like warlock or sorc for spell dps for those that want to melt faces with a caster.
Please don't call for cw nerfs. The class is already weak enough as it is.
Jugger Conq GF
....
2 - The BIG ADVANTAGE gwf today is that it does good damage against a few enemies. If you take the cap gwf and "fix" the deep gash to "balance", the overall damage of the dungeons will be larger, but the class would be worse because it would lose its QUALITY damage. It is preferable to take a total of 100k vs 4 than 150k vs 30 (as we did in the beta). That's why playing with gwf currently is nice ... and is not the source of any imbalance.
3 - the fact that gwf be, hypothetically, that the best tank gf (destroyer - the owner of the deep gash -.. Has build based recovery. Instigator loses offensiveness taking damage. the sentinel is the onlytank) means nothing. BE MELEE A HANDICAP!
A well played conqueror GF has almost the same damage as a CW and in some cases even more. A well played GWF deals 10-20% more damage by the end of the run. TR's have excellent single target damage, the best currently, if played well. Undergeared HR's can easily match a CWs damage, a same geared & well played HR will do ~30-40% more total damage (20k+ crit with an *at-will*).
There are only a few ocassions when a CW will outdamage everyone by a large margin:
1. CN & PK speed runs;
2. Others don't know how to play;
3. The CW doesn't know how to play;
4. The CW outgears everyone;
5. 1 or more party member is afk;
The 3rd might seem odd, but a good CW, or any class for that matter, does not care about his own DPS only, he tries to set up mobs, so others can do max damage too, thus dungeon runs become faster. You'll never see a well geared, good CW wearing 2/2 in a dungeon run or self buffing sets, most CWs run with High Vizier or Shadow Weaver, becuase both of them boosts the entire parties' DPS. A good CW buffs party damage & survivability, while a bad CW boosts his own dmg and lowers others'. If you're pugging you'll rarely meet a good CW, so it's not the class, it's the players.
If we would have a DPS mage, then i'd agree that CWs should have less dmg, but since CWs are the only mages in this game they are also a DPS class, and nerfing them even more would just result in CWs leaving the game.
*BLEEP!* started giving examples but got to frustrated.
I do a fair amount of PuG runs and when you need to tell people what powers to slot and how/when to use them. Then these seem people complain that they're a 'Pro' at this fight and have never done it that way. Then when you ask them how they do it and you find out they used a bug....it's frustrating.
Over all, people just need to learn to play their classes and be willing to change their play styles for different types of encounters (PvP, PvE, Solo, & Group)
Except that screws those of us who spent months and millions of AD building a CW
Idk if you're deriving your opinions from pug run or have just never seen any decent players, I can't honestly tell. Please realize that the vast majority of people playing this game are drool buckets, they have no idea how to spec/gear/or even play properly since most content doesn't demand anything more than licking random keys. For all I know you could be one of those said individuals given your current views on things, idk nor do I care.......what I do care about is that your opinions are WRONG, so please stop spewing misinformation.
want to know? fix the cw. the class is definitely broken.
Lol at that. Let me guess, you never played a CW. Every close range fighter thinks they are in the worst situation and CWs just stand back and attacks from safety. I can't even tell you how many time i've heard this from close range dpses. They all think they have 80% of the mobs on them and that's why they died, when the reality is they had 3 mobs on them just didn't knew how to dodge, while the CW was running around CCing and DPSing the other 20 mobs.
I've seen several GFs, GWFs and TRs just standing in the red circle dpsing then blaming the CW for not being able to aggro that 1 add hitting them while kiting another 20, and the DC for not being able to heal them, since they don't know how to use potions either.