The reason why NON-SENT are worthless in PvP is because of being a glass canon and the same goes for GF. Both classes do not have a dodge and if you are low HP and built like paper, can easily be 100 to 0 by a single player. CWs, TRs, HRs and other tanky GF/GWFs will destroy the glass canon GWF/GFs due to the damage difference between builds is marginal.
With the current state of the game glass canon in PvP is just gimping yourself and should only be used in PvE.
This man speaks the truth. I love when a non Sent GWF goes all Unstoppable on me & I just sit there with my shield out waiting. Most of them ALREADY KNOW THEY ARE SCREWED! I have even had non Sents run when they realize I am not burning my encounters & am just waiting out there Unstoppable. Sents are same thing except they just dont' die
Didn't bother to read this whole thread, but yes I have lots of experience in high lvl premades against the top players in the game and yes, I think gwf deserves a slight nerfing (I play cw, tr and gwf all BiS geared). I won't even talk about pugs, play any class except cw and dc and you can basically carry your whole team to win the game, sometimes even on cw or dc. No, this is based on the highest level of PvP NW has to offer.
Just today, I fought who I think (and many others do) is the best PvP dc in the game on my gwf, and killed them, which took about 2 minutes each time. This is one reason why I think gwf is overpowered, they should NEVER be able to kill a BiS tank cleric in a fair organized 1vs1, no matter how much time they have. It's ok that there are tanky classes/builds, and high dps ones, but both in the same package? It's just not fair. My gwf right now has 39k hp, 45% DR 2,2k regen ticks, which would be ok, except that I can also hit 14-16k ibs, 20k+ dailies, 8k takedowns, 12k surges, with a 40% crit chance (with wms stacks) and 31% armorpen (all in a 1vs1 situation with no debuffing by cws etc.). Lots of other gwfs can do this also, even with rank 7 and greater/regular enchants you can basically do the same thing. It's just too much tankiness and damage, so my suggestion is tone down one of those a bit. Maybe lower the damage of some skills e.g. surge, ibs, indomitable strength by say 10-15%. Another way would be to make determinaton gain being based on your unbuffed hp (usually about 20-25k for most gwfs) so you couldn't pop unstoppable just as much as now. But then again if you nerf the gwf too much (in damage or tankiness) it will become useless in high level PvP.
Apart from the damage and tankiness combo 1 thing that is really overpowered atm in PvP is the IV atwill threatening rush, gwf shouldn't have an endless gap closer, that I've seen crit for up to 6k, which is just plain stupid. If threatening rush was disabled in PvP and either the dmg or survivability decreased by maybe 10-15% the class would be completely balanced imo.
Didn't bother to read this whole thread, but yes I have lots of experience in high lvl premades against the top players in the game and yes, I think gwf deserves a slight nerfing (I play cw, tr and gwf all BiS geared). I won't even talk about pugs, play any class except cw and dc and you can basically carry your whole team to win the game, sometimes even on cw or dc. No, this is based on the highest level of PvP NW has to offer.
Just today, I fought who I think (and many others do) is the best PvP dc in the game on my gwf, and killed them, which took about 2 minutes each time. This is one reason why I think gwf is overpowered, they should NEVER be able to kill a BiS tank cleric in a fair organized 1vs1, no matter how much time they have. It's ok that there are tanky classes/builds, and high dps ones, but both in the same package? It's just not fair. My gwf right now has 39k hp, 45% DR 2,2k regen ticks, which would be ok, except that I can also hit 14-16k ibs, 20k+ dailies, 8k takedowns, 12k surges, with a 40% crit chance (with wms stacks) and 31% armorpen (all in a 1vs1 situation with no debuffing by cws etc.). Lots of other gwfs can do this also, even with rank 7 and greater/regular enchants you can basically do the same thing. It's just too much tankiness and damage, so my suggestion is tone down one of those a bit. Maybe lower the damage of some skills e.g. surge, ibs, indomitable strength by say 10-15%. Another way would be to make determinaton gain being based on your unbuffed hp (usually about 20-25k for most gwfs) so you couldn't pop unstoppable just as much as now. But then again if you nerf the gwf too much (in damage or tankiness) it will become useless in high level PvP.
Apart from the damage and tankiness combo 1 thing that is really overpowered atm in PvP is the IV atwill threatening rush, gwf shouldn't have an endless gap closer, that I've seen crit for up to 6k, which is just plain stupid. If threatening rush was disabled in PvP and either the dmg or survivability decreased by maybe 10-15% the class would be completely balanced imo.
Just my 2 cents
Agreed that there is 1 build with GWF that's currently unbalanced but there isn't much you can do about it. You can't nerf the build without breaking GWF's other builds. What needs to happen is buff Destroyer Capstone by 25-30% or maybe even more to have players want to run another build.
Its just like when Perma-Stealth rogues had their teeth pulled. Sure you can still run perma but you hit like a wet noodle. Players still play perma but are pretty worthless to their teams.
Didn't bother to read this whole thread, but yes I have lots of experience in high lvl premades against the top players in the game and yes, I think gwf deserves a slight nerfing (I play cw, tr and gwf all BiS geared). I won't even talk about pugs, play any class except cw and dc and you can basically carry your whole team to win the game, sometimes even on cw or dc. No, this is based on the highest level of PvP NW has to offer.
Just today, I fought who I think (and many others do) is the best PvP dc in the game on my gwf, and killed them, which took about 2 minutes each time. This is one reason why I think gwf is overpowered, they should NEVER be able to kill a BiS tank cleric in a fair organized 1vs1, no matter how much time they have. It's ok that there are tanky classes/builds, and high dps ones, but both in the same package? It's just not fair. My gwf right now has 39k hp, 45% DR 2,2k regen ticks, which would be ok, except that I can also hit 14-16k ibs, 20k+ dailies, 8k takedowns, 12k surges, with a 40% crit chance (with wms stacks) and 31% armorpen (all in a 1vs1 situation with no debuffing by cws etc.). Lots of other gwfs can do this also, even with rank 7 and greater/regular enchants you can basically do the same thing. It's just too much tankiness and damage, so my suggestion is tone down one of those a bit. Maybe lower the damage of some skills e.g. surge, ibs, indomitable strength by say 10-15%. Another way would be to make determinaton gain being based on your unbuffed hp (usually about 20-25k for most gwfs) so you couldn't pop unstoppable just as much as now. But then again if you nerf the gwf too much (in damage or tankiness) it will become useless in high level PvP.
Apart from the damage and tankiness combo 1 thing that is really overpowered atm in PvP is the IV atwill threatening rush, gwf shouldn't have an endless gap closer, that I've seen crit for up to 6k, which is just plain stupid. If threatening rush was disabled in PvP and either the dmg or survivability decreased by maybe 10-15% the class would be completely balanced imo.
Just my 2 cents
I was just speaking on Threatening Rush on another thread. I can hit HR's through roots via Threatening Rush. Usually only one before I bounce back but I can do it over and over again till they are dead. *He's Dead Jim* Threatening Rush Bounce back threatening rush bounce back eventually you have a dead HR and me sitting pretty at full life.
The past week I think I have been called a h4cker by about 15 different HR's after they intentionally engage me and get face stomped because of Threatening Rush
Didn't bother to read this whole thread, but yes I have lots of experience in high lvl premades against the top players in the game and yes, I think gwf deserves a slight nerfing (I play cw, tr and gwf all BiS geared). I won't even talk about pugs, play any class except cw and dc and you can basically carry your whole team to win the game, sometimes even on cw or dc. No, this is based on the highest level of PvP NW has to offer.
Just today, I fought who I think (and many others do) is the best PvP dc in the game on my gwf, and killed them, which took about 2 minutes each time. This is one reason why I think gwf is overpowered, they should NEVER be able to kill a BiS tank cleric in a fair organized 1vs1, no matter how much time they have. It's ok that there are tanky classes/builds, and high dps ones, but both in the same package? It's just not fair. My gwf right now has 39k hp, 45% DR 2,2k regen ticks, which would be ok, except that I can also hit 14-16k ibs, 20k+ dailies, 8k takedowns, 12k surges, with a 40% crit chance (with wms stacks) and 31% armorpen (all in a 1vs1 situation with no debuffing by cws etc.). Lots of other gwfs can do this also, even with rank 7 and greater/regular enchants you can basically do the same thing. It's just too much tankiness and damage, so my suggestion is tone down one of those a bit. Maybe lower the damage of some skills e.g. surge, ibs, indomitable strength by say 10-15%. Another way would be to make determinaton gain being based on your unbuffed hp (usually about 20-25k for most gwfs) so you couldn't pop unstoppable just as much as now. But then again if you nerf the gwf too much (in damage or tankiness) it will become useless in high level PvP.
Apart from the damage and tankiness combo 1 thing that is really overpowered atm in PvP is the IV atwill threatening rush, gwf shouldn't have an endless gap closer, that I've seen crit for up to 6k, which is just plain stupid. If threatening rush was disabled in PvP and either the dmg or survivability decreased by maybe 10-15% the class would be completely balanced imo.
Just my 2 cents
just one question. why gwf should not be able to kill bis clerics on 1 x 1? this idea came from where? just because since the begin of the game that DCs are immortal, doesn't mean that it can't change, don't you think? Some would call "gwf" cute trying to kill things before the patch, a total joke for a class considered a barbarian/great weapon fighter.
GWFs is a meele agressive/tank class, it should be feared in close combat, and it should kill anyone in a close combat.
the counter part of GF, it is a tank more tactic, which they do already very well, since a tank gf has no problem in control the node from a GWF. Now dcs, come on, dcs are support class, I always thought it is stupid fight 1 x 1s that people cant kille ach other, and it was one of the reasons I quit SWTOR, because healers there just break the game. if the other team has 1 or 2 healers, they simply dont die, if both teams have healers, nobody dies. it is super HAMSTER if you ask me.
Now my own opinion to not say that I am blind and don't recognize some of "opness" of GWF, and I said earlier that GWF is an agressive meele fighter and it should be feared and kill anyone within his range. Because of that I think Threatening rush is the problem because of its high range. I think the skill has to be part of gwf to keep its new synergies, however the range it has is HAMSTER for gwf, it is a close-gap at will, and it should not be like that. Keep threatening rush, but reduce's the "jump" range of it. make it similar range of sure strike for example. Done, problem solved, gwf will still be very strong, feared in meele fight, but will have to work very hard to close the gap against CWs/TRs/Rangers and make more use of sprint.
the problem is not the other skills in my point of view, it is threatening rush being used as a close gap. reduce its range, and gwf will be strong, but will have to be smart to close the gap, like before. And before it would do awesome because of tenes on 5th sharandar boon, without tenes so efficient anymore, gwf has to remain strong, but has to work its way to close the gap fighting other classes. I bet without threatening rush crazy range a lot CWs can fight equal with many gwf, as some CW kind of "scare" and get close to kill me a lot of times the way it is now.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
a GWF should be subject to kiting more than anything.
In pvp you skill towards mobility, you make sure you can keep your target in melee range with your abilities and people who believe they can stand toe2toe with a GWF, should not think they would know anything about balance. It's like saying that a TR shouldn't be able to kill anyone from behind their back or a CW not being able to CC/dps you down from a distance, a Ranger not being able to keep away from his target and a Cleric not being able to heal/flee/keephisteamingthegame.
a GWF should be subject to kiting more than anything.
In pvp you skill towards mobility, you make sure you can keep your target in melee range with your abilities and people who believe they can stand toe2toe with a GWF, should not think they would know anything about balance. It's like saying that a TR shouldn't be able to kill anyone from behind their back or a CW not being able to CC/dps you down from a distance, a Ranger not being able to keep away from his target and a Cleric not being able to heal/flee/keephisteamingthegame.
yes, the problem is the threatening rush long range. fix it, and gwf will be fair.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Some of the biggest issues with GWF right now that have changed because of Mod 2:
1) Threat Rush - gap closer that helps with kiting and applies a 8% -DR mark.
2) Feat in Sent tree that lets you deal 15% MORE damage to marked targets (was not good prior since no easy way to mark)
3) Trample the fallen - 15% more damage to proned targets (such as takedown/FL)
Combine those damage buffs that were not there pre mod 2 and you have about a 38% damage increase using those tactics.
Then also consider the fact that prior to Mod 2, Sents had to equip things like surgeons bands to get enough regen to be tanky enough, now with the artifacts Sents are free to equip quite a bit more ARP, not to mention Lantern has 300 arp/crit on it.
All of that combined is why your having Sents crit even GFs/other Sents for 12k+ IBS and critting TRs/HRs for 15k and daily for even more!
A few of the issues that make a Sent more powerful than GFs currently is that Weapon Master and DEX provide a Sent with quite a bit of crit % while a GF can only stack via Crit.
So a GWF can easily have over 40% crit while a GF is lucky to push 22%, with a perfect Vorpal that is a HUGE damage difference.
Ontop of that, GWFs Unstoppable is MUCH better than Guard. And GWFs sprint is much better than mark - especially for a melee class.
Throw in the fact GWFs can now also mark AND deal 15% more damage to marked targets, and you have nasty damage.
The above thread addresses ONE of the possible fixes to the class, it nerfs unstoppable which currently IS a major part of the class. Well, nerfs it for only SOME specs.
You could go many ways with the change, Another thing I would suggest is putting Student of the Sword in the Swordmaster paragon tree so Sents who go IV cant get SoTS - which would be a huge damage loss there...
Another change I would suggest is remove 15% more damage to marked targets and turn that into something like 25% more threat to marked targets.
This helps pvp, while also buffing PVE. And lets face it, most non-sents dont spec into the Sent tree enough to get that so I wouldnt think it would hurt DPS builds for PVE much.
Another proposition I suggested is the HP% loss being the deter gained. I think that would nerf the tankiness of Sents which IS pretty amazing right now.
Eventhough 2v1 its not hard to kill, its still THE hardest class, dont you think a guardian fighter should be? Just my opnion though.... I mean a guy with a 2h Sword should be a cake walk compared to a guy with a massive shield... But that may be more from the GF side of things.
Overall, I dont think threat rush is the biggest issue with Sents. Youll still have just as much tankyness with damage output, removing that is still a massive buff to the class from Mod 2 and it just means Sents need to time sprint better again.
Threatening rush on it's own isn't an issue. The fact you can spam it by sprint cancelling 2-3x faster than normal with no loss to stamina if done right is an issue. I will admit I am abusing the heck out of it for mobilty and more consistent marks, not to mention the solid single target damage. But it needs to be fixed ala the way weapon master was.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
nah, leave the powerful challenge and temple of fallen as it is, gwf should hit hard in meele fight. just reduce range and it will be fine.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
nah, leave the powerful challenge and temple of fallen as it is, gwf should hit hard in meele fight. just reduce range and it will be fine.
A tank characters specced out for tanknyness should NOT be hitting as hard as you can now...
If you wanna hit hard, then you can roll a non-Sent. There are frankly too much +damage feats/abilites that add in the Sent tree as it is... Ive out DPSd Dest Spec GWFs with similar gear in PVE wearing titan/scrappers and being full sent...
Its actually a little ridiculous.... With Trample being a major source of added damage.
Im not saying the new damage isnt nice, but for a character as tanky as Sents are now, the damage output is ridiculous...
A tank characters specced out for tanknyness should NOT be hitting as hard as you can now...
If you wanna hit hard, then you can roll a non-Sent. There are frankly too much +damage feats/abilites that add in the Sent tree as it is... Ive out DPSd Dest Spec GWFs with similar gear in PVE wearing titan/scrappers and being full sent...
Its actually a little ridiculous.... With Trample being a major source of added damage.
Im not saying the new damage isnt nice, but for a character as tanky as Sents are now, the damage output is ridiculous...
actually I Am dps. barbarians in online games, better saying, warriors meele always have good dps in their range and good survivality because no teleports/dodges, etc. if you take out the range of rush, will make gwf work harder to close the gap.
dont forget to spec temple we lose 8% deflect, and 8% mobility . that is why it doesnt miss much, because rush makes the work, if they remove rush long range, it becomes very fair trade.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
u cant realy nerf gwf.next day u will see 30%more perma tr in pvp lol.
what im trying to say all better pvp players have more classes and nerf for one class is buff for another.so its win win situation.
Determination built over % of health lost. 20% look fair to me considering GWFs don't have any dodge immune or block skill. Unstoppable is vital to tank, and it must be kept this way. It just need to be reduced the difference in effectiveness of Unstoppable between normal or destroyer builds, and very high HP tanky builds. Also, GWFs need to tank in PvE too, so nerfing unstoppable for everyone just to please the PvP complainers is a bad mistake and would make the job of a GWF in many T2 dungeons very very hard.
About threat rush, i would make it different. I would not reduce the range. It's part of its utility as a gap closing skill.
I would slow down the starting animation. For example, WMS is an at-will, but right now you've to wait for the animation to end so that you can't spam it.
Same goes for threat rush. Make it so that you've to wait for the animation to end before using it again, and slow down the "charging" animation a bit. This would prevent people from spamming it and would actually force us to use both sprint and threat rush to close the gap. With this, when you cannot spam it, you've to actually be more "tactical" and time it correctly.
Also, remember that the increased gap closing ability and mobility comes with a new HR class with 5 dodges and powerful ranged DPS, and new whisperknife paragon path to increase ranged permastealth TRs damage. Plus a new paragon for CWs with increased damage. Those classes and paragons may not be good enough right now, or people may just have not mastered them yet, but it does not mean that they won't get tweaked and improved/ learned.
Also, threat rush is very important in PvP for any destroyer, and is imho a big, big help for them, improving their gap closing ability, allwoing them to make up for the lower survivability (along with reduced CD on roar and takedown).
If i can suggest one thing to devs, i'll tell them to extend reduced CD on frontline surge for destroyers. Would make the path much more wanted and viable for PvP too.
Anyway, as a hybrid GWF, i'd say determination built over % of health lost and slower threat rush animation+ cannot be cancelled by sprint, to make it an ability to be used in combo with sprint.
While i can see the point of the op i have to remind u that this game is not a pvp one. Their statements were that pvp was only a minor thing till now ...
Sorry, but you lost all credibility when you said this. I stopped reading. I have a long and extensive friends list and every single one of them PvP'ing regularly and has long before module 2. I've been here since beta and know that PvP is very important to very many people. While the PvP-only crowd is smaller than the PvE - only crowd, it seems very obvious that the crowd concerned with both is bigger than the other two combined. For most, there is the grind to 60 which happens quite quickly, followed by the grind for gear which happens slower. But, at all times there is PvP and for many level 60's the only challenge left is PvP. For many others AI is a release but PvP again true fearsome and independently thinking opponents is the challenge that keeps them playing this game.
If you don't care about PvP, that's your prerogative, but don't be so naive as to attempt to marginalized it.
If you don't care about PvP, that's your prerogative, but don't be so naive as to attempt to marginalized it.
i am not the producer and is not me that does or not care about it . Fact is that this game pvp is one of the worse experiences i;ve ever encounter. What i was saying is that atm nwo has a good pve that you can enjoy but if you want pvp just go someplace else till they fix it.
actually I Am dps. barbarians in online games, better saying, warriors meele always have good dps in their range and good survivality because no teleports/dodges, etc. if you take out the range of rush, will make gwf work harder to close the gap.
dont forget to spec temple we lose 8% deflect, and 8% mobility . that is why it doesnt miss much, because rush makes the work, if they remove rush long range, it becomes very fair trade.
Ok you are understating the DPS and survivability.
IN NW, Sent GWFs have AMAZING burst damage and AMAZING survivability, they also dont need much more with CC immune+sprint as well.
I played a GWF before threat rush and found it fine, hence why people ran roar which I would imagine you would see potentially again if you removed threat rush. Personally it has the delay of animation so its not so bad, maybe get rid of animation cancel and itll be more balanced.
With TWO ranged prone/stuns + sprint + CC immune its not that hard to "close the gap" as you say.
Also I run Trample on my GWF, with weapon master stacks I still roll over 40% deflect, Honestly the 8% isnt adding alot to my tankiness, im already hard to kill with 38k HP/1600 regen/40% deflect/sprint/unstoppable etc...
If you want to deal damage, great, but then you shouldnt be able to be SO tanky... The only thing really holding GWFs back right now is hunter roots (literally and figuratively) otherwise GWF > All.
I already made a post dealing with the sent issue and I got called everything from a *blah* CW to a QQer. To I should learn to deal with it.. Learn to deal with what winning all the time? The fact is I can heal more damage then what can be given to me unless I take a HUGE burst of damage all at once which does happen.
I fight 5 versus 1 - 4 versus 1 and three versus 1 the results are all the same unless they coordinate or get lucky I am not going down. I posted some screens in my guide. I do have a bad streak where I die a lot yeah but it is from my own doing more then another class was able to take me down *unless it is a GF*.
I do not need heals I am my own healer. I do not need battle pots I have restoring strike and unstopable. A mage can hit me all day long while I am standing taking a base. No fear unstopable will pop and poof my health is back up plus the damage is reduced. I can stand on the zone until I take it without fear of the mage killing me EVEN if they double debuff and ice knife.
No one cares that is that. I guess the reason why no one cares is because they are focused on PVE....
YOU SIR I LIKE. I was a full sent maxed our regen and LS with a modest 1.4karp and ALOT of recovery. POINT HERE IS I could never die, SOOO I switched too a destroyer/sent hybrid taking all offensive stats in the first 30 feat tree and while mixing Destroyer and sent not maxing either one out for the last feat... I need no more help building unstop from a feat... I'll post my build when I'm home so it can be judged and destroyed by the best arm chair quarterbacks in the league... second point to this is I got EVEN better I will also post a vid of how i can be at 14% life (i believe it was in the video -/+ 1-2%) and start this rotation, DAILY, takedown, Threat rush, frontline, threat rush, indom and BAMMMMMM 100% life no dc just me
Comments
This man speaks the truth. I love when a non Sent GWF goes all Unstoppable on me & I just sit there with my shield out waiting. Most of them ALREADY KNOW THEY ARE SCREWED! I have even had non Sents run when they realize I am not burning my encounters & am just waiting out there Unstoppable. Sents are same thing except they just dont' die
Play: PILLAGER* of the DEAD! By: Hempy NW-DNV3R9B4J
~HEMPY'S CRIT-GEN GUARDIAN FIGHTER BUILD~
Just today, I fought who I think (and many others do) is the best PvP dc in the game on my gwf, and killed them, which took about 2 minutes each time. This is one reason why I think gwf is overpowered, they should NEVER be able to kill a BiS tank cleric in a fair organized 1vs1, no matter how much time they have. It's ok that there are tanky classes/builds, and high dps ones, but both in the same package? It's just not fair. My gwf right now has 39k hp, 45% DR 2,2k regen ticks, which would be ok, except that I can also hit 14-16k ibs, 20k+ dailies, 8k takedowns, 12k surges, with a 40% crit chance (with wms stacks) and 31% armorpen (all in a 1vs1 situation with no debuffing by cws etc.). Lots of other gwfs can do this also, even with rank 7 and greater/regular enchants you can basically do the same thing. It's just too much tankiness and damage, so my suggestion is tone down one of those a bit. Maybe lower the damage of some skills e.g. surge, ibs, indomitable strength by say 10-15%. Another way would be to make determinaton gain being based on your unbuffed hp (usually about 20-25k for most gwfs) so you couldn't pop unstoppable just as much as now. But then again if you nerf the gwf too much (in damage or tankiness) it will become useless in high level PvP.
Apart from the damage and tankiness combo 1 thing that is really overpowered atm in PvP is the IV atwill threatening rush, gwf shouldn't have an endless gap closer, that I've seen crit for up to 6k, which is just plain stupid. If threatening rush was disabled in PvP and either the dmg or survivability decreased by maybe 10-15% the class would be completely balanced imo.
Just my 2 cents
Agreed that there is 1 build with GWF that's currently unbalanced but there isn't much you can do about it. You can't nerf the build without breaking GWF's other builds. What needs to happen is buff Destroyer Capstone by 25-30% or maybe even more to have players want to run another build.
Its just like when Perma-Stealth rogues had their teeth pulled. Sure you can still run perma but you hit like a wet noodle. Players still play perma but are pretty worthless to their teams.
I was just speaking on Threatening Rush on another thread. I can hit HR's through roots via Threatening Rush. Usually only one before I bounce back but I can do it over and over again till they are dead. *He's Dead Jim* Threatening Rush Bounce back threatening rush bounce back eventually you have a dead HR and me sitting pretty at full life.
The past week I think I have been called a h4cker by about 15 different HR's after they intentionally engage me and get face stomped because of Threatening Rush
GWFs is a meele agressive/tank class, it should be feared in close combat, and it should kill anyone in a close combat.
the counter part of GF, it is a tank more tactic, which they do already very well, since a tank gf has no problem in control the node from a GWF. Now dcs, come on, dcs are support class, I always thought it is stupid fight 1 x 1s that people cant kille ach other, and it was one of the reasons I quit SWTOR, because healers there just break the game. if the other team has 1 or 2 healers, they simply dont die, if both teams have healers, nobody dies. it is super HAMSTER if you ask me.
Now my own opinion to not say that I am blind and don't recognize some of "opness" of GWF, and I said earlier that GWF is an agressive meele fighter and it should be feared and kill anyone within his range. Because of that I think Threatening rush is the problem because of its high range. I think the skill has to be part of gwf to keep its new synergies, however the range it has is HAMSTER for gwf, it is a close-gap at will, and it should not be like that. Keep threatening rush, but reduce's the "jump" range of it. make it similar range of sure strike for example. Done, problem solved, gwf will still be very strong, feared in meele fight, but will have to work very hard to close the gap against CWs/TRs/Rangers and make more use of sprint.
the problem is not the other skills in my point of view, it is threatening rush being used as a close gap. reduce its range, and gwf will be strong, but will have to be smart to close the gap, like before. And before it would do awesome because of tenes on 5th sharandar boon, without tenes so efficient anymore, gwf has to remain strong, but has to work its way to close the gap fighting other classes. I bet without threatening rush crazy range a lot CWs can fight equal with many gwf, as some CW kind of "scare" and get close to kill me a lot of times the way it is now.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
In pvp you skill towards mobility, you make sure you can keep your target in melee range with your abilities and people who believe they can stand toe2toe with a GWF, should not think they would know anything about balance. It's like saying that a TR shouldn't be able to kill anyone from behind their back or a CW not being able to CC/dps you down from a distance, a Ranger not being able to keep away from his target and a Cleric not being able to heal/flee/keephisteamingthegame.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
1) Threat Rush - gap closer that helps with kiting and applies a 8% -DR mark.
2) Feat in Sent tree that lets you deal 15% MORE damage to marked targets (was not good prior since no easy way to mark)
3) Trample the fallen - 15% more damage to proned targets (such as takedown/FL)
Combine those damage buffs that were not there pre mod 2 and you have about a 38% damage increase using those tactics.
Then also consider the fact that prior to Mod 2, Sents had to equip things like surgeons bands to get enough regen to be tanky enough, now with the artifacts Sents are free to equip quite a bit more ARP, not to mention Lantern has 300 arp/crit on it.
All of that combined is why your having Sents crit even GFs/other Sents for 12k+ IBS and critting TRs/HRs for 15k and daily for even more!
A few of the issues that make a Sent more powerful than GFs currently is that Weapon Master and DEX provide a Sent with quite a bit of crit % while a GF can only stack via Crit.
So a GWF can easily have over 40% crit while a GF is lucky to push 22%, with a perfect Vorpal that is a HUGE damage difference.
Ontop of that, GWFs Unstoppable is MUCH better than Guard. And GWFs sprint is much better than mark - especially for a melee class.
Throw in the fact GWFs can now also mark AND deal 15% more damage to marked targets, and you have nasty damage.
The above thread addresses ONE of the possible fixes to the class, it nerfs unstoppable which currently IS a major part of the class. Well, nerfs it for only SOME specs.
You could go many ways with the change, Another thing I would suggest is putting Student of the Sword in the Swordmaster paragon tree so Sents who go IV cant get SoTS - which would be a huge damage loss there...
Another change I would suggest is remove 15% more damage to marked targets and turn that into something like 25% more threat to marked targets.
This helps pvp, while also buffing PVE. And lets face it, most non-sents dont spec into the Sent tree enough to get that so I wouldnt think it would hurt DPS builds for PVE much.
Another proposition I suggested is the HP% loss being the deter gained. I think that would nerf the tankiness of Sents which IS pretty amazing right now.
Eventhough 2v1 its not hard to kill, its still THE hardest class, dont you think a guardian fighter should be? Just my opnion though.... I mean a guy with a 2h Sword should be a cake walk compared to a guy with a massive shield... But that may be more from the GF side of things.
Overall, I dont think threat rush is the biggest issue with Sents. Youll still have just as much tankyness with damage output, removing that is still a massive buff to the class from Mod 2 and it just means Sents need to time sprint better again.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Says the guy who exploited the new boons and has all of them already...
Dont want your OP class nerfed?
A tank characters specced out for tanknyness should NOT be hitting as hard as you can now...
If you wanna hit hard, then you can roll a non-Sent. There are frankly too much +damage feats/abilites that add in the Sent tree as it is... Ive out DPSd Dest Spec GWFs with similar gear in PVE wearing titan/scrappers and being full sent...
Its actually a little ridiculous.... With Trample being a major source of added damage.
Im not saying the new damage isnt nice, but for a character as tanky as Sents are now, the damage output is ridiculous...
dont forget to spec temple we lose 8% deflect, and 8% mobility . that is why it doesnt miss much, because rush makes the work, if they remove rush long range, it becomes very fair trade.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
what im trying to say all better pvp players have more classes and nerf for one class is buff for another.so its win win situation.
Determination built over % of health lost. 20% look fair to me considering GWFs don't have any dodge immune or block skill. Unstoppable is vital to tank, and it must be kept this way. It just need to be reduced the difference in effectiveness of Unstoppable between normal or destroyer builds, and very high HP tanky builds. Also, GWFs need to tank in PvE too, so nerfing unstoppable for everyone just to please the PvP complainers is a bad mistake and would make the job of a GWF in many T2 dungeons very very hard.
About threat rush, i would make it different. I would not reduce the range. It's part of its utility as a gap closing skill.
I would slow down the starting animation. For example, WMS is an at-will, but right now you've to wait for the animation to end so that you can't spam it.
Same goes for threat rush. Make it so that you've to wait for the animation to end before using it again, and slow down the "charging" animation a bit. This would prevent people from spamming it and would actually force us to use both sprint and threat rush to close the gap. With this, when you cannot spam it, you've to actually be more "tactical" and time it correctly.
Also, remember that the increased gap closing ability and mobility comes with a new HR class with 5 dodges and powerful ranged DPS, and new whisperknife paragon path to increase ranged permastealth TRs damage. Plus a new paragon for CWs with increased damage. Those classes and paragons may not be good enough right now, or people may just have not mastered them yet, but it does not mean that they won't get tweaked and improved/ learned.
Also, threat rush is very important in PvP for any destroyer, and is imho a big, big help for them, improving their gap closing ability, allwoing them to make up for the lower survivability (along with reduced CD on roar and takedown).
If i can suggest one thing to devs, i'll tell them to extend reduced CD on frontline surge for destroyers. Would make the path much more wanted and viable for PvP too.
Anyway, as a hybrid GWF, i'd say determination built over % of health lost and slower threat rush animation+ cannot be cancelled by sprint, to make it an ability to be used in combo with sprint.
Sorry, but you lost all credibility when you said this. I stopped reading. I have a long and extensive friends list and every single one of them PvP'ing regularly and has long before module 2. I've been here since beta and know that PvP is very important to very many people. While the PvP-only crowd is smaller than the PvE - only crowd, it seems very obvious that the crowd concerned with both is bigger than the other two combined. For most, there is the grind to 60 which happens quite quickly, followed by the grind for gear which happens slower. But, at all times there is PvP and for many level 60's the only challenge left is PvP. For many others AI is a release but PvP again true fearsome and independently thinking opponents is the challenge that keeps them playing this game.
If you don't care about PvP, that's your prerogative, but don't be so naive as to attempt to marginalized it.
Ok you are understating the DPS and survivability.
IN NW, Sent GWFs have AMAZING burst damage and AMAZING survivability, they also dont need much more with CC immune+sprint as well.
I played a GWF before threat rush and found it fine, hence why people ran roar which I would imagine you would see potentially again if you removed threat rush. Personally it has the delay of animation so its not so bad, maybe get rid of animation cancel and itll be more balanced.
With TWO ranged prone/stuns + sprint + CC immune its not that hard to "close the gap" as you say.
Also I run Trample on my GWF, with weapon master stacks I still roll over 40% deflect, Honestly the 8% isnt adding alot to my tankiness, im already hard to kill with 38k HP/1600 regen/40% deflect/sprint/unstoppable etc...
If you want to deal damage, great, but then you shouldnt be able to be SO tanky... The only thing really holding GWFs back right now is hunter roots (literally and figuratively) otherwise GWF > All.
YOU SIR I LIKE. I was a full sent maxed our regen and LS with a modest 1.4karp and ALOT of recovery. POINT HERE IS I could never die, SOOO I switched too a destroyer/sent hybrid taking all offensive stats in the first 30 feat tree and while mixing Destroyer and sent not maxing either one out for the last feat... I need no more help building unstop from a feat... I'll post my build when I'm home so it can be judged and destroyed by the best arm chair quarterbacks in the league... second point to this is I got EVEN better
Optimus Grime OUT!