So this has been presented before but since the new module, I think this has become increasingly important with the strength of the GWF class.
Honestly I think this ONE small change would really balance the entire CLASS for the most part...
Currently Determination gain is based on damage taken. Take somewhere around 7-8k damage and you will have half a bar top pop unstoppable giving you 8% temp HP.
the issue is that sents currently have over 50% DR, meaning that 8k = <4k damage actually taken from an HP pool of easily over 35k. meaning that you took 10% dmg to pop unstoppable Almost all Sents also take unstoppable recovery healing them for an extra 5% HP ontop of that 8% temp HP. So a net effect is you actually have 95% HP + 8% temp HP putting you OVER 100% HP AND you gain increased DR/stun immune etc...
You can see how this lets sents pop unstoppable over and over....
With non-sents you not only take more damage because of less DR but your total HP pool is less on average meaning instead of popping it at 90% youll have unstoppable around 75%. You also may or may not have unstoppable recovery meaning you dont even heal that 5%.
These are ALL reasons why I think determination gain should be based on HEALTH lost, NOT damage taken. Something in the middle, around 15%-20% health lost seems fair. Thats a small nerf to Sents and a Buff to Destroyers.
Basically this would only slightly "nerf" the Sent build making them take about 5% more HP loss before popping unstoppable while making other GWF builds much more viable in PVE and PVP. I think this would help balance the class quite a bit and offer more options for PVP as well.
Do you realize, that sentinel GWF's build determination at a much slower rate due to deflection/armor class/defense boost? Your entire post doesn't make sense. Think first, before you actually start suggesting something...
Do you realize, that sentinel GWF's build determination at a much slower rate due to deflection/armor class/defense boost? Your entire post doesn't make sense. Think first, before you actually start suggesting something...
Defense and deflect do not stop you from taking damage. You are thinking of it wrong. You are thinking it is based on a percent of health base but it is actually based on damage.
Example. I hit you and you are not wearing any armor. You will build determination from the attack. It will take most of your life most likely. I wear armor you hit me I build the same amount of determination but take less life loss as it is not based on health but damage. 2 different things what you are describing would be a health based system which it is not.
You got people like steamroller replying in this thread if the argument was that simple do you not think he would have said something?
While i can see the point of the op i have to remind u that this game is not a pvp one. Their statements were that pvp was only a minor thing till now and it was pve that was main direction. As i can see in this thread u;re making the same mistake as in the other one regarding GF tab ability and i have to point out again that PVE wise they are working as intended and i see no reason why they should ever be changed in any way.
I also feel that pvp needs something, but imo little changes like this will only make things worse in pve or even render that unplayable by some classes (see GWF in the first weeks after module 1). As i said in other threads pvp needs to be separated like in all the other games, is a different beast and u just cant bring balance if u keep them together.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
What you're saying is: you need to take more damage in order to get the same mount of determination
So with your "buff" getting more defense = bad, getting more HP = bad. Can you please explain in what possible way is this a buff?
It would be a buff in DPS gear if it is tuned right, because a DPS GWF probably only has between 24-28K health, and not a lot of defensive stats. This is the primary reason (but definitely not the only one) that DPS GWFs are useless currently in pvp, because GWFs do not have any defensive mechanism other than unstoppable. But a high Def/Deflect/regen sentinel will gain unstoppable just as fast as a 23K DPS GWF. But the 23K GWF is probably sitting around 14-15K health and the sentinel with 40K is probably sitting around 36K from increased resistance and a regen tick.
Making it % health based would allow DPS GWFs to use unstoppable more often, giving them more ability to fend off attacks and more mobile, while simultaneously nerfing sentinels who already are crazy defesive. The problem with this fix though is it risks allowing DPS GWF to basically be perma-unstoppable.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited December 2013
I don't know about you, but I like to be able to not die when facing 5 mobs. Or 20. I have 31K HP on my destroyer.
It would make getting more HP and defense a bad thing. Show me what other class has a detriment to gaining higher stats.
Oh wait, you can't, because it doesn't exist. Because it's ****ing stupid.
I don't know about you, but I like to be able to not die when facing 5 mobs. Or 20. I have 31K HP on my destroyer.
It would make getting more HP and defense a bad thing. Show me what other class has a detriment to gaining higher stats.
Oh wait, you can't, because it doesn't exist. Because it's ****ing stupid.
It is the way the system is currently set up. If you are destroyer with making it a flat line based percentage of health loss destroyers would be able to pop unstopable 50 times more then what they do now actually making Destroyer a viable class to play.
gwf is viable in top premades but is crazy good in pugs.so if u make him balanced in pugs like cw is(even top cw cant solo pug) he will be usseles in premades coz even now can be countered in high end pvp.
counclusion is gwf is not a problem he must be op in pugs in order to work in premades,real problem is lack of high end content were gwf can roam instead of trolling pugs.
gwf is viable in top premades but is crazy good in pugs.so if u make him balanced in pugs like cw is(even top cw cant solo pug) he will be usseles in premades coz even now can be countered in high end pvp.
counclusion is gwf is not a problem he must be op in pugs in order to work in premades,real problem is lack of high end content were gwf can roam instead of trolling pugs.
gwf is viable in top premades but is crazy good in pugs.so if u make him balanced in pugs like cw is(even top cw cant solo pug) he will be usseles in premades coz even now can be countered in high end pvp.
counclusion is gwf is not a problem he must be op in pugs in order to work in premades,real problem is lack of high end content were gwf can roam instead of trolling pugs.
It all comes down to this ^ If you look at any situation where it takes more than 2 to kill a sent gwf, the opponents aren't geared enough in comparison (Hence, pug trolling).
If you want to balance it though, we should look at buffing the non-sent gwf builds, because I would agree that is underpowered.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
gwf is viable in top premades but is crazy good in pugs.so if u make him balanced in pugs like cw is(even top cw cant solo pug) he will be usseles in premades coz even now can be countered in high end pvp.
counclusion is gwf is not a problem he must be op in pugs in order to work in premades,real problem is lack of high end content were gwf can roam instead of trolling pugs.
By this "logic", CWs should be made OP enough in pugs until they are as viable as a GWF in premades.
Can't you see how faulty this line of thinking is?!?
Thanks ayroux for sharing those figures in the first post. To be honest, you're the only guy in this whole community that is actually caring more about balance than his own good. It's like with the tenes, you post some points demonstrating how they are out of balance and everybody jumped you, same case here. Nobody wants even slight nerfs, they all build their chars with great care looking exactly for the thing you're trying to take away - bruteforcing a win through class&build&gear.
gwf is viable in top premades but is crazy good in pugs.so if u make him balanced in pugs like cw is(even top cw cant solo pug) he will be usseles in premades coz even now can be countered in high end pvp.
counclusion is gwf is not a problem he must be op in pugs in order to work in premades,real problem is lack of high end content were gwf can roam instead of trolling pugs.
thatis also true. on end game a gwf can be killed somehow fast by two dps classes. and can be countered by a gf on the node and even a DC. some rogues also can stall a gwf forever, and some rangers too.
gwf "smash" pugs easy. but i bet most gwfs that pugs complain are probably very well geared gwf, because a lot of the times I fight pugs, sometimes they have 2 or even 3 gwfs, and my team wins. because they without gear can't even fight well on pugs too.
this new build iron vanguard requires artefacts to be effective too, so it is not cheap to play gwf easy.
so clearly, if game community wants to balance the gwfs that smash pugs, something has to be done that it won't be useless on end games premades, otherwise the class will be killed.
the problem with balance pvp is that the line between something "OP" and something "crappy" is very very thin. one slight nerf on gwf may turn the class completely useless. that is why i think, they should maybe buff CW, which is the class sufering more against gwfs.
but i cant understand why some cws have the necessity to think it is fair to fight gwfs on 1 x 1, they were clearly made for support in pvp, controlling/debuffing/and dpsing targets for their team mates to kill.
so it is very hard to come up with one 100% opinion if the class is op, or not. because at the same time I smash pugs so easily, i can't smash premades that easy, at least not the ones of same level. the balance on end game do exists, and my fear is "nerf" gwf to please that part of the game will make gwf in end game completely useless.
One solution would maybe bolster creation, as it exists in others rpgs.
undergeared people get their stats raised to close of the max the highest person in the match to create balance. I dont like this idea to be honest, but if it makes it more fair to not nerf and make gwf useelss, so be it.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Defense and deflect do not stop you from taking damage. You are thinking of it wrong. You are thinking it is based on a percent of health base but it is actually based on damage.
Example. I hit you and you are not wearing any armor. You will build determination from the attack. It will take most of your life most likely. I wear armor you hit me I build the same amount of determination but take less life loss as it is not based on health but damage. 2 different things what you are describing would be a health based system which it is not.
You got people like steamroller replying in this thread if the argument was that simple do you not think he would have said something?
actually i played destroyer and sentinel. destroyer even without the last feat builds determination faster by taking more damage.
the reason why sentinel >>> others specs all is one: Weapon mastery. crits and deflection. when you are a sentinel like me, it is your critical hits that kill people. and building deflection make me tank.
For instance the sentinel path is a bit dumb, it is both the best dpser path and the most tanky, just because they put defense/dps/deflect on same path.
solution: buff the others specs more, dont need nerf sentinel, just buff the other paths with attractive features.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Steam while I respect your opinion the thing in which I am trying to come across the math does not lie a GWF Sent and it is the only class I play heals through more damage then I can be given. The only class that really face rolls me is an equally geared and skilled GF. Hunter no problem TR no problem CW no problem. Well I can not kill a DC but they can not kill me either that is like a Draw against a DC.
Are GF's OP? Well they can two shot me where as not any other class I played against can. I still not sure how that works. Yet on a lesser geared GF I faceroll them.
So you telling me that I am the only one other then GF's that actually know how to play? And that everyone else is underpowered or lack the skills to beat me? You saying because I can heal more damage then is dished out to me that means that they are lacking in skill or gear? This is a math problem man damage is damage no matter what kind of gear is giving you the damage.
About the GF problem I am sure it will not be for long I will find out how to beat them.
Also while you are respected you must think of HOW you became respected in this community.You being known for your UNKILLABLE GWF guide. The words Unkillable and PVP do not go together without the word OP.
with your logic, should I say that as a gwf, fighting a DC or a super tanky GF controlling the node from, that both are unkillable. Does that mean they are overpower also?
because that is what happens when you fight high end dcs/gfs. They may not 2 shot people, but they control the nodes of gwf anyday, anytime.
and if you say it is because I don't die fighting multiple people, that is not always true, except if I am fighting a premade with a lot of tankers.
for example that premade here we lost, i never died. But Steamroller, scrotobaggings, the dc were pretty tankers. and even their rogue was not dps one, which was left only the cw. and as I am gwf, i was simply not the focus, so i could survive without trouble.
Same thing isn't possible if I am focused for 2 or more dps classes. OP? maybe. but I still needed to run away from the DC and the GF because I was useless against them dropping me off the point.
If I am the captain of a premade, and no rainbown comp is required, and I had to pick the classes. I would choose without problem any tanky GF over any GWF any day. by the way, i two shot bad pugs, i can't two shot good people, that is just impossible on high end game, except cws because they are too squishy, sometimes, if i crit all my hits, if they are marked, and SoW on.
but hey, maybe it is another thing people have to consider. trs have been getting tanky, and I cant two shot them, so maybe cws should try to use regen/hp tanky setups too, like the good rangers.
Full DPS GWFS sux, so maybe CWs have to trry something new too. I remember when I start to play this game, all gwfs I knew were DPS, and a lot people told me "trs rule pvp", gwf sux, die easy, kill nobody. I thought myself, i like warriors, and I will do something good. and I did it. It's just maybe people play the wrong way in CWs, both in build/setup because they like to DPS much and go pve, and maybe because they want the role of cw as 1 x 1, when it is for support more.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
but i cant understand why some cws have the necessity to think it is fair to fight gwfs on 1 x 1, they were clearly made for support in pvp, controlling/debuffing/and dpsing targets for their team mates to kill.
It's not necessary, it might be cool if possible though No need for CWs to "smash" GWFs or TRs or be their "counter", just to have fair chances at equal gear/experience. Yes, it is 5 vs 5, yet the reality sometimes is that you will end up as a CW in 1 vs 1 situations, so we should be able to handle ourselves properly without the need to ***** out on voice chat that we need help 'cause OMG there's a sent/perma on the point <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> us fast.
Now, to be completely honest, I know CWs that built up to 36K+ HP, with decent regen and good offensive stats (no HV though). So it might be possible that very specific builds with certain gear would be able to outlast a good TR or GWF... sometimes... if the stars align. Other than that many "PvP" CWs are actually full glass cannons of below 25K HP and around 700 Def. but with 2200+ ArP. Any serious match, such a CW necessitates full DC attention or they will not make it. I'm not sure any complaints from full glass cannon CWs can be considered valid in the context of what PvP is in Neverwinter.
As for me, I am quite sure there's no need for any nerfs and I don't think GWFs, TRs or HRs (since lately they're the focus of complaints) are OP.
I only think that some classes need additional utilities for PvP, that's all. No need to buff CWs, as in give us more spike damage to be able to kill GWFs and so on. Just give us some tools to reset fights®en and escape sticky situations. It should be more than enough, and a better solution to "get more HP, add tenes", which is just lame&boring.
hard use from the phone lol. did you try to use the roots of cw against gwf in unstoppable? might be a very good survivality skill since roar and ranger roots bypass unstoppable
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Has nothing to do with "Stars Alligning" or getting "lucky", this game revolves around RNG, everything is at random, thats why you ccan NEVER consistently output the same results over and over and over, doesnt matter who you are. If you dont crit your Ice knife, yes its going to be difficcult but not impossible. There are many tactics you can use to counter a GWF as a CW. you just need to practice. Talk to Allt, Meldanen, Lantis. you can get some tips from the pro's. Meldanen is a Glass Cannon CW, and youd be suprised what he can do to a GWF. you just need to practice your rotation.
What I liked about this topic is that it shows, as a whole, something that is a classic gwf problem: you can not turn in any situation as full dps, even this being your build / gear. There is no "reward".
see module2: gwf improved since their damage in pve, the population increased. It's good for the game, it's good to have a more offensive class gwf. Why pvp would be different?
After thinking a bit, I see that this is such a smart idea when the change in bleed. Because, when the sentinel cause trouble in pvp, the natural reaction is to decrease the damage of the class as a whole.
I hope that both sentinels and the developer who has read the topic to understand the scale of the proposal and how it would be enjoyable for players of all classes. Not to mention all the possible improvements that the class as a whole would receive to offset this over-exposure in pvp, further enhancing its performance in pve.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
see module2: gwf improved since their damage in pve,
It's not improved though. The only reason the damage is good right now is because Deep Gash is bugged. Once they fix that the damage will be at least 10% lower than before update.
I do not know if it's a bug. If it is a bug to be fixed, the class is ruined again and the players go away again, which just proves the point.
anyway, enough advise on the new values in post feedback. They are aware of how much work now, as the satisfaction of the players in general.
both in terms of balance as the "market" there would be no reason to make changes in this direction, instead of encouraging them to suggest the proposed topic.
deep gash works as it should. if they "fix" it somebody will get a deep gash, or they would need to improve dmg on other skills since gwf dmg is where it should have been from start, maybe just too easily achievable
It's not improved though. The only reason the damage is good right now is because Deep Gash is bugged. Once they fix that the damage will be at least 10% lower than before update.
deep gash is not bugged, it was buffed. read the shadowmantle patch and you will know it.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Has nothing to do with "Stars Alligning" or getting "lucky", this game revolves around RNG, everything is at random, thats why you ccan NEVER consistently output the same results over and over and over, doesnt matter who you are. If you dont crit your Ice knife, yes its going to be difficcult but not impossible. There are many tactics you can use to counter a GWF as a CW. you just need to practice. Talk to Allt, Meldanen, Lantis. you can get some tips from the pro's. Meldanen is a Glass Cannon CW, and youd be suprised what he can do to a GWF. you just need to practice your rotation.
I suggest watching the ET vs LS or even the EoA PM videos (vs LS?). Allt died A LOT. Meldanen died A LOT. Lantis is actually very good, but I only saw him vs Complaints Department where he had lots of attention from Gctrl when WTFProned got near him. Also for some reason I think Desidus DCed in that match, and for yet another mysterious reason Shrugs and Desidus didn't focus Lantis which allowed him to kite ayroux forever.
Tiah posted not long ago a topic about CW survivability in PM matches, it was removed.
The fact that these CWs (Allt is what, the best CW in the game now?) die A LOT has nothing to do with their skills. They have plenty of that. They have plenty of gear as well. Meldanen is full Rank 10s BiS I believe. Allt same but with GTEs.
Yet, they still die 20-40 times/serious match. Nobody cares about pugs. I can go on 30-0 killing sprees in pugs against people that are relatively newbies with the new gear and I'm not half as good/geared.
You should post your videos of these CWs doing reasonably good against approximatively geared/skilled GWFs. Reasonably good means 50% win chance. I doubt that Gannicus would lose even 1 in 10 matches against any CW in the game from what I saw. Just an example. I'm mentioning Gannicus, because I think he handles CWs extremely well and with a lot of confidence, but he is not the only GWF that can do that by far.
Again, words are nothing. Everyone can give advice.
did you try to use the roots of cw against gwf in unstoppable? might be a very good survivality skill since roar and ranger roots bypass unstoppable
Not working, you get the Immune message. Chill Strikes, Repels etc. are not going through unstoppable. And I don't think they ever should. HR roots bypassing Unstoppable is a bug and hopefully will be removed soon. Dunno about Roar. This is a GWF vs GWF thing. Do you think it's OK for a CC to go through a immunity mechanism? I tend to believe it is not.
deep gash works as it should. if they "fix" it somebody will get a deep gash, or they would need to improve dmg on other skills since gwf dmg is where it should have been from start
I was so nervous here ... hahah
I swear to god I started to like the game after such change, and not by the class improved, but that was the most brilliant mathematician juggle possible.
turn to take much of the damage from the beta, no one more twists his nose when he sees one gwf (which does not mean that if you do partys 2/3) and most importantly, this was done in a way that is not causing problems in pvp .
respect for both the guy who had this idea that I think the guy deserved the nobel ... haha.
By this "logic", CWs should be made OP enough in pugs until they are as viable as a GWF in premades
cw is viable in premades just watch any premade u will se at least one cw. if cw would be viable in pugs or in 1v1 like gwf ,tr that would be end of the game.what would stop anyone from rollin best class by for pve and pvp.
even if they need a small buff they should never come close to win 1v1 any class but dc
even if they need a small buff they should never come close to win 1v1 any class but dc
Please explain why do you think CWs should never come close to win 1 vs 1 against anyone but DCs.
Actually let's stop thinking abolut CWs a second. What about DCs?!? They should have a DPS paragon that would allow them to be efficient damage dealers, like the D&D clerics. This should obviously include DCs that will be able to go 1 vs 1 against any other class, not to stall them, but to kill them - 50% of the cases, if gear&skill are similar.
Same should be true for all classes. Each should have the necessary tools to kill anybody else.
And of course you can take a CW in a PM, who stops you? They can be useful if geared&skilled. But if you had the choice... what would you take? Yet another GWF, TR, GF or even HR, or a CW?
I'd take a GWF over a CW any day. They can hold, they can backcap, they can kill and they can survive without Dc for extended periods of time. No contest. Same for TR, they can be awesome and do well by themselves. Same for GF - awesome in the right hands. Not so sure about HRs. Whatever people say, they are the least of the worries for my CW in the battlefield.
cause its not a 1v1 game ? or you want to be able to 1v1 any class and then in group fights sit half a map away and blow everything up while melee classes have to go in the middle of things, and run through your team to get to you
Paladin Master Race
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
cause its not a 1v1 game ? or you want to be able to 1v1 any class and then in group fights sit half a map away and blow everything up while melee classes have to go in the middle of things, and run through your team to get to you
This comes up again and again. "It's not a 1 vs 1 game".
Yet repeatedly you actually find yourself in 1 vs 1 situations.
Your TR contests with enemy GWF. He dies. What do you do? Call for mommy? No, you gotta go and step on the point, near the beastly GWF that's gonna smash you on the head with the huge shiny sword These situations repeat themselves over and over again, especially as the CW role is mostly of supporting others where is needed, basically trying to create ranged damage superiority.
As for CWs being able to freely blast away from range at enemies, common, this actually NEVER-EVER happens in a decent match I know for sure that as soon as I show my mug near a battle, probably all enemies with some brains left will switch and focus fire me down. TRs will stealth to me, HRs will have some target practice, enemy CWs will go full DPS on me as well. I'll get stunned from impact shots, proned by GFs, and so on. Actually this is one of the ways to understand what kind of opponents you face, if they leave me alone, they're probably not concerned with a win
But... most importantly.
I NEVER said a CW should have SUPERIORITY in 1 vs 1s. No, no, no. CWs should be able to kill the enemy 50% of the cases, in average, when they are both properly specced and geared approximatively similar. 1 vs 1 battles against any class should be undecided and no class should have any advantage.
This is just my opinion, but I'm the type of person that is a bit obsessive on making things fair for everyone. When things are unfair, people get disillusioned and unhappy. I like happy people.
BTW, these posts are actually better for that other topic here, "GWF > all, why??"
I'll stop posting here about generic GWF issues, this topic is just about unstoppable mechanics.
Comments
Do you realize, that sentinel GWF's build determination at a much slower rate due to deflection/armor class/defense boost? Your entire post doesn't make sense. Think first, before you actually start suggesting something...
Example. I hit you and you are not wearing any armor. You will build determination from the attack. It will take most of your life most likely. I wear armor you hit me I build the same amount of determination but take less life loss as it is not based on health but damage. 2 different things what you are describing would be a health based system which it is not.
You got people like steamroller replying in this thread if the argument was that simple do you not think he would have said something?
I also feel that pvp needs something, but imo little changes like this will only make things worse in pve or even render that unplayable by some classes (see GWF in the first weeks after module 1). As i said in other threads pvp needs to be separated like in all the other games, is a different beast and u just cant bring balance if u keep them together.
So with your "buff" getting more defense = bad, getting more HP = bad. Can you please explain in what possible way is this a buff?
Making it % health based would allow DPS GWFs to use unstoppable more often, giving them more ability to fend off attacks and more mobile, while simultaneously nerfing sentinels who already are crazy defesive. The problem with this fix though is it risks allowing DPS GWF to basically be perma-unstoppable.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
It would make getting more HP and defense a bad thing. Show me what other class has a detriment to gaining higher stats.
Oh wait, you can't, because it doesn't exist. Because it's ****ing stupid.
counclusion is gwf is not a problem he must be op in pugs in order to work in premades,real problem is lack of high end content were gwf can roam instead of trolling pugs.
Thank you.
It all comes down to this ^ If you look at any situation where it takes more than 2 to kill a sent gwf, the opponents aren't geared enough in comparison (Hence, pug trolling).
If you want to balance it though, we should look at buffing the non-sent gwf builds, because I would agree that is underpowered.
By this "logic", CWs should be made OP enough in pugs until they are as viable as a GWF in premades.
Can't you see how faulty this line of thinking is?!?
Thanks ayroux for sharing those figures in the first post. To be honest, you're the only guy in this whole community that is actually caring more about balance than his own good. It's like with the tenes, you post some points demonstrating how they are out of balance and everybody jumped you, same case here. Nobody wants even slight nerfs, they all build their chars with great care looking exactly for the thing you're trying to take away - bruteforcing a win through class&build&gear.
thatis also true. on end game a gwf can be killed somehow fast by two dps classes. and can be countered by a gf on the node and even a DC. some rogues also can stall a gwf forever, and some rangers too.
gwf "smash" pugs easy. but i bet most gwfs that pugs complain are probably very well geared gwf, because a lot of the times I fight pugs, sometimes they have 2 or even 3 gwfs, and my team wins. because they without gear can't even fight well on pugs too.
this new build iron vanguard requires artefacts to be effective too, so it is not cheap to play gwf easy.
so clearly, if game community wants to balance the gwfs that smash pugs, something has to be done that it won't be useless on end games premades, otherwise the class will be killed.
the problem with balance pvp is that the line between something "OP" and something "crappy" is very very thin. one slight nerf on gwf may turn the class completely useless. that is why i think, they should maybe buff CW, which is the class sufering more against gwfs.
but i cant understand why some cws have the necessity to think it is fair to fight gwfs on 1 x 1, they were clearly made for support in pvp, controlling/debuffing/and dpsing targets for their team mates to kill.
so it is very hard to come up with one 100% opinion if the class is op, or not. because at the same time I smash pugs so easily, i can't smash premades that easy, at least not the ones of same level. the balance on end game do exists, and my fear is "nerf" gwf to please that part of the game will make gwf in end game completely useless.
One solution would maybe bolster creation, as it exists in others rpgs.
undergeared people get their stats raised to close of the max the highest person in the match to create balance. I dont like this idea to be honest, but if it makes it more fair to not nerf and make gwf useelss, so be it.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
actually i played destroyer and sentinel. destroyer even without the last feat builds determination faster by taking more damage.
the reason why sentinel >>> others specs all is one: Weapon mastery. crits and deflection. when you are a sentinel like me, it is your critical hits that kill people. and building deflection make me tank.
For instance the sentinel path is a bit dumb, it is both the best dpser path and the most tanky, just because they put defense/dps/deflect on same path.
solution: buff the others specs more, dont need nerf sentinel, just buff the other paths with attractive features.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
because that is what happens when you fight high end dcs/gfs. They may not 2 shot people, but they control the nodes of gwf anyday, anytime.
and if you say it is because I don't die fighting multiple people, that is not always true, except if I am fighting a premade with a lot of tankers.
for example that premade here we lost, i never died. But Steamroller, scrotobaggings, the dc were pretty tankers. and even their rogue was not dps one, which was left only the cw. and as I am gwf, i was simply not the focus, so i could survive without trouble.
Same thing isn't possible if I am focused for 2 or more dps classes. OP? maybe. but I still needed to run away from the DC and the GF because I was useless against them dropping me off the point.
If I am the captain of a premade, and no rainbown comp is required, and I had to pick the classes. I would choose without problem any tanky GF over any GWF any day. by the way, i two shot bad pugs, i can't two shot good people, that is just impossible on high end game, except cws because they are too squishy, sometimes, if i crit all my hits, if they are marked, and SoW on.
but hey, maybe it is another thing people have to consider. trs have been getting tanky, and I cant two shot them, so maybe cws should try to use regen/hp tanky setups too, like the good rangers.
Full DPS GWFS sux, so maybe CWs have to trry something new too. I remember when I start to play this game, all gwfs I knew were DPS, and a lot people told me "trs rule pvp", gwf sux, die easy, kill nobody. I thought myself, i like warriors, and I will do something good. and I did it. It's just maybe people play the wrong way in CWs, both in build/setup because they like to DPS much and go pve, and maybe because they want the role of cw as 1 x 1, when it is for support more.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
It's not necessary, it might be cool if possible though
Now, to be completely honest, I know CWs that built up to 36K+ HP, with decent regen and good offensive stats (no HV though). So it might be possible that very specific builds with certain gear would be able to outlast a good TR or GWF... sometimes... if the stars align. Other than that many "PvP" CWs are actually full glass cannons of below 25K HP and around 700 Def. but with 2200+ ArP. Any serious match, such a CW necessitates full DC attention or they will not make it. I'm not sure any complaints from full glass cannon CWs can be considered valid in the context of what PvP is in Neverwinter.
As for me, I am quite sure there's no need for any nerfs and I don't think GWFs, TRs or HRs (since lately they're the focus of complaints) are OP.
I only think that some classes need additional utilities for PvP, that's all. No need to buff CWs, as in give us more spike damage to be able to kill GWFs and so on. Just give us some tools to reset fights®en and escape sticky situations. It should be more than enough, and a better solution to "get more HP, add tenes", which is just lame&boring.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
see module2: gwf improved since their damage in pve, the population increased. It's good for the game, it's good to have a more offensive class gwf. Why pvp would be different?
After thinking a bit, I see that this is such a smart idea when the change in bleed. Because, when the sentinel cause trouble in pvp, the natural reaction is to decrease the damage of the class as a whole.
I hope that both sentinels and the developer who has read the topic to understand the scale of the proposal and how it would be enjoyable for players of all classes. Not to mention all the possible improvements that the class as a whole would receive to offset this over-exposure in pvp, further enhancing its performance in pve.
anyway, enough advise on the new values in post feedback. They are aware of how much work now, as the satisfaction of the players in general.
both in terms of balance as the "market" there would be no reason to make changes in this direction, instead of encouraging them to suggest the proposed topic.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
I suggest watching the ET vs LS or even the EoA PM videos (vs LS?). Allt died A LOT. Meldanen died A LOT. Lantis is actually very good, but I only saw him vs Complaints Department where he had lots of attention from Gctrl when WTFProned got near him. Also for some reason I think Desidus DCed in that match, and for yet another mysterious reason Shrugs and Desidus didn't focus Lantis which allowed him to kite ayroux forever.
Tiah posted not long ago a topic about CW survivability in PM matches, it was removed.
The fact that these CWs (Allt is what, the best CW in the game now?) die A LOT has nothing to do with their skills. They have plenty of that. They have plenty of gear as well. Meldanen is full Rank 10s BiS I believe. Allt same but with GTEs.
Yet, they still die 20-40 times/serious match. Nobody cares about pugs. I can go on 30-0 killing sprees in pugs against people that are relatively newbies with the new gear and I'm not half as good/geared.
You should post your videos of these CWs doing reasonably good against approximatively geared/skilled GWFs. Reasonably good means 50% win chance. I doubt that Gannicus would lose even 1 in 10 matches against any CW in the game from what I saw. Just an example. I'm mentioning Gannicus, because I think he handles CWs extremely well and with a lot of confidence, but he is not the only GWF that can do that by far.
Again, words are nothing. Everyone can give advice.
Not working, you get the Immune message. Chill Strikes, Repels etc. are not going through unstoppable. And I don't think they ever should. HR roots bypassing Unstoppable is a bug and hopefully will be removed soon. Dunno about Roar. This is a GWF vs GWF thing. Do you think it's OK for a CC to go through a immunity mechanism? I tend to believe it is not.
I was so nervous here ... hahah
I swear to god I started to like the game after such change, and not by the class improved, but that was the most brilliant mathematician juggle possible.
turn to take much of the damage from the beta, no one more twists his nose when he sees one gwf (which does not mean that if you do partys 2/3) and most importantly, this was done in a way that is not causing problems in pvp .
respect for both the guy who had this idea that I think the guy deserved the nobel ... haha.
It is sort of bugged. Deep Gash would do a lot more damage if the dots from smaller crits didn't overwrite the larger dots from encounter crits.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Please explain why do you think CWs should never come close to win 1 vs 1 against anyone but DCs.
Actually let's stop thinking abolut CWs a second. What about DCs?!? They should have a DPS paragon that would allow them to be efficient damage dealers, like the D&D clerics. This should obviously include DCs that will be able to go 1 vs 1 against any other class, not to stall them, but to kill them - 50% of the cases, if gear&skill are similar.
Same should be true for all classes. Each should have the necessary tools to kill anybody else.
And of course you can take a CW in a PM, who stops you? They can be useful if geared&skilled. But if you had the choice... what would you take? Yet another GWF, TR, GF or even HR, or a CW?
I'd take a GWF over a CW any day. They can hold, they can backcap, they can kill and they can survive without Dc for extended periods of time. No contest. Same for TR, they can be awesome and do well by themselves. Same for GF - awesome in the right hands. Not so sure about HRs. Whatever people say, they are the least of the worries for my CW in the battlefield.
This comes up again and again. "It's not a 1 vs 1 game".
Yet repeatedly you actually find yourself in 1 vs 1 situations.
Your TR contests with enemy GWF. He dies. What do you do? Call for mommy? No, you gotta go and step on the point, near the beastly GWF that's gonna smash you on the head with the huge shiny sword
As for CWs being able to freely blast away from range at enemies, common, this actually NEVER-EVER happens in a decent match
But... most importantly.
I NEVER said a CW should have SUPERIORITY in 1 vs 1s. No, no, no. CWs should be able to kill the enemy 50% of the cases, in average, when they are both properly specced and geared approximatively similar. 1 vs 1 battles against any class should be undecided and no class should have any advantage.
This is just my opinion, but I'm the type of person that is a bit obsessive on making things fair for everyone. When things are unfair, people get disillusioned and unhappy. I like happy people.
BTW, these posts are actually better for that other topic here, "GWF > all, why??"
I'll stop posting here about generic GWF issues, this topic is just about unstoppable mechanics.