deep gash is not bugged, it was buffed. read the shadowmantle patch and you will know it.
Maybe you should actually find out what is bugged before you start talking. Deep Gash currently deals 15% of your power as damage every second, not 15% over 5 seconds.
Maybe you should actually find out what is bugged before you start talking. Deep Gash currently deals 15% of your power as damage every second, not 15% over 5 seconds.
See above.
i couldnt give less ... about whats written there or what u, cryptic or whatever thinks it should be, gwf dmg atm is where it should have been for ages .
Paladin Master Race
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
i couldnt give less ... about whats written there or what u, cryptic or whatever thinks it should be, gwf dmg atm is where it should have been for ages .
Do you have reading problems?
I was doing more damage before (not by much, but still) the update than I do now. Now when this bug gets fixed the damage output will be terrible once again.
I was doing more damage before (not by much, but still) the update than I do now. Now when this bug gets fixed the damage output will be terrible once again.
unstoppable says ur immune to cc also..
and if u were doing more dmg before patch then do respec, im doing a lot more dmg, and so does about every other GWF
Paladin Master Race
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited December 2013
I think that says something about how you were playing before. Nothing good.
hard use from the phone lol. did you try to use the roots of cw against gwf in unstoppable? might be a very good survivality skill since roar and ranger roots bypass unstoppable
True but in Pugs as I am not sure about end game PVP because I can not be in a competitive PVP match but in pugs you can still kill a ranger through the roots with threatening rush unless they get so far away it is out of the range of threatening rush.
Maybe you should actually find out what is bugged before you start talking. Deep Gash currently deals 15% of your power as damage every second, not 15% over 5 seconds.
See above.
IF there is a bug, is not it. just see the difference in damage between a wms / reaping strike / ibs to realize that the "power" is the most irrelevant part of this equation, or is subject to some very strange calculation.
Note the patch: Feat: Deep Gash: This feat now benefits from Strength and other damage bonuses.
if there is a bug on the calculation of these bonuses/strength (probably for second too). But one thing I agree: for good or ill the text is outdated and I personally feel uncomfortable with it.
I think that says something about how you were playing before. Nothing good.
before mod2 only good cw did more dmg than me, now im usually ahead of them, if u have fd up feats dont blame mod2 or whatever, its just that u are an octopus
Maybe you should actually find out what is bugged before you start talking. Deep Gash currently deals 15% of your power as damage every second, not 15% over 5 seconds.
See above.
nope it is not bugged. you considering that power alone still do the dps for it, and you are wrong sir. you the one that didn't look up for the patch notes of shadowmantle. before patch, deep gash would be increased solo by power. Now it is increased by everything, like strenght, armor pen, debuffs like swtudent of sword, and of course your critical/vorpal since it is a critical hit now.
I still hit it very very low on gwfs. and not that "high" on other classes neither.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
This comes up again and again. "It's not a 1 vs 1 game".
Yet repeatedly you actually find yourself in 1 vs 1 situations.
Your TR contests with enemy GWF. He dies. What do you do? Call for mommy? No, you gotta go and step on the point, near the beastly GWF that's gonna smash you on the head with the huge shiny sword These situations repeat themselves over and over again, especially as the CW role is mostly of supporting others where is needed, basically trying to create ranged damage superiority.
As for CWs being able to freely blast away from range at enemies, common, this actually NEVER-EVER happens in a decent match I know for sure that as soon as I show my mug near a battle, probably all enemies with some brains left will switch and focus fire me down. TRs will stealth to me, HRs will have some target practice, enemy CWs will go full DPS on me as well. I'll get stunned from impact shots, proned by GFs, and so on. Actually this is one of the ways to understand what kind of opponents you face, if they leave me alone, they're probably not concerned with a win
But... most importantly.
I NEVER said a CW should have SUPERIORITY in 1 vs 1s. No, no, no. CWs should be able to kill the enemy 50% of the cases, in average, when they are both properly specced and geared approximatively similar. 1 vs 1 battles against any class should be undecided and no class should have any advantage.
This is just my opinion, but I'm the type of person that is a bit obsessive on making things fair for everyone. When things are unfair, people get disillusioned and unhappy. I like happy people.
BTW, these posts are actually better for that other topic here, "GWF > all, why??"
I'll stop posting here about generic GWF issues, this topic is just about unstoppable mechanics.
I know, but as previously said. you still have to consider that all it takes to make a gwf useless in a match is:
1> Send a GF. 2> Send a DC, 3> , if you have the point cap, send another equal gwf, 4> some tr/rangers can do just well too. Period, gwf is stalled the whole match. Now if your team doesn't have at least one of these three to spare for this job, then that team shouldn't even be complaining of losing. As CW you should be rotating and fleeing from 1 x 1 (from any class, not just GWF). Some CW in my guild, if we do GvG, and they rotate and caught me fighting some other class, don't really matter what class is that, I am going down because their high DPS.
the problem of creating equal balance of all classes, that all class perform as good as in 1 x 1, as in 5 x 5, is that the game doesn't have diversity at all, and it becomes all classes with different skins only. i don't like that.
GWF is powerful on 1 x 1s, perform well on group killing, but he is easily canceled by other classes on objective.
You said that situations like a tr died for gwf, and what do you do?
well, you shouldn't of sent the tr alone to start with, or the cw in begin of the situation. Only some TR can perform well against gwf on 1 x 1, like blacksheep, we have 1 x 1s, and last time we stayed at the node for over 1hour until the first of us died. and it was a "balanced" duel, where both had their SF procced more than once. You should of come together. TR+CW is is enough dps to melt down the GWF, in equal gear. Now if you expect a 10k gs and a 10k tr to take care of a 14k gwf, it is not going to happen.
I do think tho, that CWs are the class that less evolved on last patch. But you know why? because crypt balance was solo for pve perspective, and CWs still are the best in PvE. I do think they need a slight buff for PvP tho. but it would be unfair for a class with so many controls, high DPS, 3 dodges to be able to 1 x 1, and massacre people in match.
If you watch the end game premades, you will see that although CWs probably die the most, they kill the most too. that alone shows their role. Squish, but killer. Therefore, they are not made to play 1 x 1 or solo plays.
Unlesss, you try to take advantage of the artefacts now, and try to build with high hp/regen/dr or deflect. that might make some interesting tank CWs. especially that tenes are not that useless on CWs since their debuffs are very high.
Now back to the subject of balance. If the game brings modes like 1 x 1s, deathmatches, then yes. I agree that something should be done to bring balance, or everyone would play GWFs for 1 x 1s.
But doing a balance for it, it should mean doing other rebalance for make gwf perform better against gf/dcs etc on nodes too. or then it will be gwf that will become crappy.
as I told you, the way it is. I would pick up a GF any day to replace a GWF in a premade because their node control is better. If nerf gwf will only make it useless on a high end pvp game. it may balance pvp for pugs, but it will kill the class in the end game, and then why play it if it can no longer kill people, and can no longer pick nodes when the other team is aware that only takes a gf and dc to drop gwf off node?
In end games premades, gwf will simply becomes a dead weight if a gf stalks him. if the enemy has a good rotation and canceling gwf, gwf is just useless (that the way it is right now). so would it be fair to nerf gwf, or buff too much the other class in a way they can kick most gwf butt and make the class completely useless for end game pvp?
because we all know, you can't rely on pugs, pugs most of them play without strategy. as a friend says, they don't have honor, they don't care for score, they care for kills. They dont care if they are losing for 500, all they care is if they can kill the GWF, or their target. if they die, they rage quit. By the way, a lot times I pug, and i fought iron vanguard teams with maybe 2 or more gwfs. and i could still win, and my pugs were doing just fine against them. it is not that bad. It is hilarious fighting a team with 2, 3 gwfs and when they lose they complain gwf is OP, and they had more of the same "op" class in their team, that stayed on the botton of the scoreboard
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Please explain why do you think CWs should never come close to win 1 vs 1 against anyone but DCs.
best class by far in pve.and if same lvl in pvp.u do the math.
high lvl enchants cw killing low pugs in pvp.oh wait that already happened so they buffed gwf and gf in pvp at last moment coz no one wanted to play them anymore.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Please explain why do you think CWs should never come close to win 1 vs 1 against anyone but DCs.
best class by far in pve.and if same lvl in pvp.u do the math.
high lvl enchants cw killing low pugs in pvp.oh wait that already happened so they buffed gwf and gf in pvp at last moment coz no one wanted to play them anymore.
Yes I can kill pugs with newer people quite easily especially after the new module. Today I think I had a game of 30-0, and my team wasn't OP, and the other pugs was pretty decent as well, and had better tactics, trying to backcap etc. I was just able to kill them like this because... they are too squishy... and I hit too hard on them. Before Shadowmantle, I would have died at least 5-6 times, but now I have SF, artifact, regen boon AND lifesteal and potions.
But does it matter? I could make forum signature with such scores like some here do, but it's of no value, serious matches are what actually counts.
It is very important to keep in mind I love GWFs and I have GWF friends, and I'm happy that they got fixed&improved, and that they can be best DPS in PvE and super good in PvP and so on. For example I have recommended good GWFs whenever possible and preferred them against TRs for CN when possible. Most of the NWO community is quite naive actually considering the GWF a bad class for PvE when things are quite the contrary.
So I don't want any nerfs to the class. Don't touch it. It looks quite OK to me.
Yet I also cannot come to terms with the extreme vulnerability of the CW. I also don't think however that CW should be buffed, as in just made stronger. I just think it needs to have some newer PvP-centric abilities, that we can use at the expense of others. I mentioned Invisibility and Mirror Images. One could slot these against Entangling Force or Chill Strike or something - when needed. A tradeoff for when the situation asks for it. I feel that one of our biggest issues is the lack of a fight-reset or escape. We can't pop up unstoppable, or ITC, or enter stealth... we have those little 3 teleports and then it's time to soak the damage.
Again, CWs should NOT be able to be SUPERIOR in 1 vs 1 situations. They should be just good enough that if we would take 20 people that would spectate a duel, 10 of them would think the CW would win.
If we would have an arena with spectators and put Gannicus (you can put a good TR such as Blacksheep as well, same result) and some of the best CWs in there, nobody would bet on them
However.
I agree completely with Gannicus that in the current situation of the game, with just 2 Domination Arenas, such things as 1 vs 1 balancing are a bit meh.
But in the hope for additional modes, such balancing would become important. It doesn't have to make the game boring, quite the contrary, we would have more tension and more unexpected results.
Just my 2c.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
nope it is not bugged. you considering that power alone still do the dps for it, and you are wrong sir. you the one that didn't look up for the patch notes of shadowmantle. before patch, deep gash would be increased solo by power. Now it is increased by everything, like strenght, armor pen, debuffs like swtudent of sword, and of course your critical/vorpal
I still hit it very very low on gwfs. and not that "high" on other classes neither.
Yes, because strength and SotS bonus would give you 500% damage increase.
Yes, because strength and SotS bonus would give you 500% damage increase.
Which is also a bug.
you still don't understand. , strneght, armor pen, debuffs, and vorpal and critical severity. yes depending on the case you will get 500% increase yeah.
I have 3.2k power, 27%+ armor pen, p vorpal. and it only hits about 100+- on gwfs and good gfs, a bit higher if a team mate is debuffing them. are you seriously saying it is overpower??
I hit higher in cws or trs, IF i apply the 3 stacks of student of sword on them.
deep gash is fine, before it was garbage, now it is better, but it is still close to "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>".
and a full power build is not good.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
you still don't understand. , strneght, armor pen, debuffs, and vorpal and critical severity. yes depending on the case you will get 500% increase yeah.
I have 3.2k power, 27%+ armor pen, p vorpal. and it only hits about 100+- on gwfs and good gfs, a bit higher if a team mate is debuffing them. are you seriously saying it is overpower??
I hit higher in cws or trs, IF i apply the 3 stacks of student of sword on them.
deep gash is fine, before it was garbage, now it is better, but it is still close to "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>".
and a full power build is not good.
but there are people who like to complain ... see the notes ... reaping strike increased damage by 16%, even the wicked strike. the idea was the same, increase the damage of the class that had been drawn between the beta and the module 1 (nerf that drained the game). and as you can see by the above feedback, the bleed is not much in pvp, which means it was made of question designed to encourage the performance of the class in pve.
if tomorrow comes a nerf, ok, it makes sense to complain ... By now accepted his new damage which, incidentally, did not cause any imbalance the game. just made the acceptable class.
hey, looks like they did a gwf for pleasure of being oppressed minority. cheer up!
its not unstopable thats overpowerd. sure it is a huge thing for gwfs, but without it they are useless. either the damage needs a small nerf, and i mean SMALL. or they shouldnt be able to prone lock like this. like take out surge from IV gwf. as much as i like to face roll people on my gwf it really does get old and boring. pugs really cant do anything to combat a 8-12k surge 7-10k takedown then a 10-15k ibs and if they manage to live they get hit by a 13-20k indom strength.. while being proned almost indefinatly. ive seen good rangers and cws lock down gwfs but if they try to contest a point they are smashed
U R 2 E Z- SENT IV GWF undefeated 16k GS
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited December 2013
The problem with Reaping Strike is that it doesn't work with any of the class features like Destroyer or Weapon Master, because you will lose the buffs by the time it's charged. It needs more work than simple damage buff to be viable.
I wish the designers told us what is supposed to be its purpose.
I agree, but the point is: the damage of this Atwill increased by 16%.
the ibs increased by 10% damage with executioner style . whereas IBS affects up to 3 targets, increase by 10% means 30% increase ... counting unstoppable / bonus wms a ibs can now take 90% more damage.
repeating: the swordmaster / destroyer nearly doubled the damage of ibs (vs 3 opponents).
what I mean is that these values are high, but are proportional to overall projection of the class (I think). the gwf jumped based on what he was in module 1, but in relation to the cw / ranger are on the same "level".
not gonna lie, everyday eye on other forums to see if any specific damage to our complaint there. the problema'e always pvp in relation to resistance sentinel, so ... I think the devs deserve the benefit of the doubt as to bleed.
unstoppable by % of max hp lost should work and bring some weaker senit while not ruining dps gwf but i think self heal feat when use unstoppable should be changed to some more utily
1. It would hurt Sentinel much. Their tree is to lose less health and to gain unstoppable so more.
2. Destroyer don't need this junk change. We have roar + our capstone. So it's a specious to only nerf sentinel.
Glass cannon building don't need 70% uptime unstoppable. That will the case, because 50% HP lost = unstoppable is easy achievable in T2 dungeon by trash mobs for a glass cannon. To kill her lack of surviving to gain more unstoppable as it is? Yeah really...
Roar give us up to 30% Determination and has a -25% CD on top of this against a Sentinel. That is ONE Point we have unstoppable times nearly of them. The second is our Capstone. For every damage done, we gain Determination. So we don't need such excuse that 'Destroyer lack unstoppable' and so unstoppable mechanic need a rebalance. That's false. Especially because it hurts sentinel tree centric point: MORE Surviving. Penalizing this path is a selfish argument. Q.Q my GWF with 27% DR isn't so good at survive as a Sentinel with 50%+!
If you really want an improvement for Destroyer, then buff the Capstone Determination gain(and that our Encounter do the +10% damage out of unstoppable too)!
What you're saying is: you need to take more damage in order to get the same mount of determination
So with your "buff" getting more defense = bad, getting more HP = bad. Can you please explain in what possible way is this a buff?
It comes down to this. Determination/Unstoppable is a mechanic so a fighter class stands a chance against ranged classes able to pew pew him down or control him 100-0.
In PVP, TANKY classes get the added benefit of extra synergy WITH unstoppable. If 10k damage is directed towards two players.
Player A) Dest GWF with 26k HP
Player Sent GWF with 36k HP
They both build the same amount of determination from the damage, however the Dest spec GWF with 35% DR will take 6500 damage leaving him with 75% HP.
A Sent with 50% Dr takes only 5k leaing him with 86% of his HP.
Either make determination gained based upon HP lost OR the same effect would be if you made determination gain based upon NET damage taken.
So a Dest taking 6500 will build MORE determination than a Sent taking 5000 damage since he lost much more of his HP.
So what this would mean, the MORE squishy you are the MORE you rely on unstoppable and the BETTER it is for you.
If you made Unstoppable available at say 20% HP lost. A 26k HP Dest would only have to lose 5200 HP meaning PRE DR damage of 8000 on average where as an HP stacked Sent @ 36k HP would have to lose 7200 with a PRE DR of 15000 damage.
All of this gain is just purely based on a % of HP lost....
Then yes, stacking more Def/defl will help you build determination LESS meaning LESS unstoppable, but you also NEED it less.
Where as a Dest GWF NEEDS unstoppable more because he has less DR.
Doing this will help non sent specs be somewhat viable in PVP, where as currently its Sent or GTFO.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
So let me ask this, WHY should they build the same amount of "determination" from that vast difference?
But they don't. As someone already pointed out, determination gain is based on the amount of health you actually lost, not the amount of damage the attack did. If an attack is deflected you only gain half of the amount of determination you would normally.
So basically the OP was wrong and this thread is pointless.
1. It would hurt Sentinel much. Their tree is to lose less health and to gain unstoppable so more.
2. Destroyer don't need this junk change. We have roar + our capstone. So it's a specious to only nerf sentinel.
Glass cannon building don't need 70% uptime unstoppable. That will the case, because 50% HP lost = unstoppable is easy achievable in T2 dungeon by trash mobs for a glass cannon. To kill her lack of surviving to gain more unstoppable as it is? Yeah really...
Roar give us up to 30% Determination and has a -25% CD on top of this against a Sentinel. That is ONE Point we have unstoppable times nearly of them. The second is our Capstone. For every damage done, we gain Determination. So we don't need such excuse that 'Destroyer lack unstoppable' and so unstoppable mechanic need a rebalance. That's false. Especially because it hurts sentinel tree centric point: MORE Surviving. Penalizing this path is a selfish argument. Q.Q my GWF with 27% DR isn't so good at survive as a Sentinel with 50%+!
If you really want an improvement for Destroyer, then buff the Capstone Determination gain(and that our Encounter do the +10% damage out of unstoppable too)!
Your looking at PVE, try looking at pvp and how a GF can take you from 100-0 because of prone locks. Wont matter if you get x10000% more determination gained from DEALING damage, heck it wouldnt matter if you gained a FULL deter bar from hitting just 1 at will.
If you cant hit anyone, you cant gain any deter.
When you compare the flat EHP of the two builds:
26k HP @ 35% DR (40k EHP) versus 38k HP @ 52% (80k) DR The difference is just dumb almost double.... Then add things like deflect and its even MORE then that.... Take another step and add things like unstoppable + regen + Lifesteal in later.. But the difference just on the amount of damage to take them 100-0
Now I get a PVE Dest GWF obviously cant compete with a PVP Sent GWF in pvp effectiveness. But show me a high level premade who runs with a Dest GWF over a Sent GWF and ill then claim GWFs are OP as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right now...
BTW I have 2 60 GWFs decked out so this isnt coming from a QQ who doesnt play one. I know the power they have, its really dumb.
But they don't. As someone already pointed out, determination gain is based on the amount of health you actually lost, not the amount of damage the attack did. If an attack is deflected you only gain half of the amount of determination you would normally.
So basically the OP was wrong and this thread is pointless.
The point of this thread again is that NonSents are worthless in pvp. The reason is because of the amazing synergy Sents have with regards to unstoppable.
On AVERAGE, my Sent needs only lose about 10% or less of his HP to gain Unstoppable and get 8% temp HP AND! Heal himself for a base of 5% (putting me back to 95% with another 8% temp HP)
It comes down to this. Determination/Unstoppable is a mechanic so a fighter class stands a chance against ranged classes able to pew pew him down or control him 100-0.
In PVP, TANKY classes get the added benefit of extra synergy WITH unstoppable. If 10k damage is directed towards two players.
Player A) Dest GWF with 26k HP
Player Sent GWF with 36k HP
They both build the same amount of determination from the damage, however the Dest spec GWF with 35% DR will take 6500 damage leaving him with 75% HP.
A Sent with 50% Dr takes only 5k leaing him with 86% of his HP.
So let me ask this, WHY should they build the same amount of "determination" from that vast difference?
Either make determination gained based upon HP lost OR the same effect would be if you made determination gain based upon NET damage taken.
So a Dest taking 6500 will build MORE determination than a Sent taking 5000 damage (30% more to be exact)
Then yes, stacking more Def/defl will help you build determination LESS meaning LESS unstoppable, but you also NEED it less.
Where as a Dest GWF NEEDS unstoppable more because he has less DR.
Doing this will help non sent specs be somewhat viable in PVP, where as currently its Sent or GTFO.
Because Determination is build on Damage taken, not on HP lost. It's the same on Guard AP gain. So it's not fair that sentinel gain less because of their tree spec? Deflect is a determination fiend. You know that fact?
Because Determination is build on Damage taken, not on HP lost. It's the same on Guard AP gain. So it's not fair that sentinel gain less because of their tree spec? Deflect is a determination fiend. You know that fact?
This makes no sense, do you realize what someone just posted above? DR/deflect REDUCE deter gain... Thats ALREADY how it is.
What I am contending that that ONE possible fix for GWFs is to make determination gained a % of HP. The more HP you stack, the more damage you must take for unstoppable.
What you are saying is ALREADY in the game, more DR = less deter gained. Deflect = less deter gained.
But what ISNT in the game is the fact that HP stacking Sents lose about 8-10% HP to pop unstoppable and HEAL themselves for half the damage it took to make them pop unstoppable while a NON-Sent takes 30%+ and sometimes DOESN'T heal 5%.
Now I get if you want to be good at pvp build for pvp, etc. But when the class builds/mechanics are such that essentially ONLY one build is viable for pvp, maybe thats cause for a "rebalance" of the class? Or the builds?
This makes no sense, do you realize what someone just posted above? DR/deflect REDUCE deter gain... Thats ALREADY how it is.
What I am contending that that ONE possible fix for GWFs is to make determination gained a % of HP. The more HP you stack, the more damage you must take for unstoppable.
What you are saying is ALREADY in the game, more DR = less deter gained. Deflect = less deter gained.
But what ISNT in the game is the fact that HP stacking Sents lose about 8-10% HP to pop unstoppable and HEAL themselves for half the damage it took to make them pop unstoppable while a NON-Sent takes 30%+ and sometimes DOESN'T heal 5%.
Now I get if you want to be good at pvp build for pvp, etc. But when the class builds/mechanics are such that essentially ONLY one build is viable for pvp, maybe thats cause for a "rebalance" of the class? Or the builds?
Then you play your class false. As Destroyer GWF i go out of a 20min battle with 4 place, 2 death against an hybrid Sentinel(or maybe full Sentinel) that had Soulforge but 5 death + another GWF + DC in their team.
And if you get 1 rotated by another DPS class, that doesn't matter for me. That's balance. DPS vs. DPS = win with first/good rotation. So what's your point? Sentinel is more of an PVP spec, so complaining about that fact, is plain stupid.
As a protector GF i can't OS/1 Rotate glass cannons or like them. So what? I need huge Dmg buffs? It's not my tree centric. End of story. Destroyer is based on DPS. End of story.
The point of this thread again that NonSents are worthless in pvp. The reason is because of the amazing synergy Sents have with regards to unstoppable.
WRONG.
The reason why NON-SENT are worthless in PvP is because of being a glass canon and the same goes for GF. Both classes do not have a dodge and if you are low HP and built like paper, can easily be 100 to 0 by a single player. CWs, TRs, HRs and other tanky GF/GWFs will destroy the glass canon GWF/GFs due to the damage difference between builds is marginal.
With the current state of the game glass canon in PvP is just gimping yourself and should only be used in PvE.
Comments
See above.
i couldnt give less ... about whats written there or what u, cryptic or whatever thinks it should be, gwf dmg atm is where it should have been for ages .
I was doing more damage before (not by much, but still) the update than I do now. Now when this bug gets fixed the damage output will be terrible once again.
unstoppable says ur immune to cc also..
and if u were doing more dmg before patch then do respec, im doing a lot more dmg, and so does about every other GWF
True but in Pugs as I am not sure about end game PVP because I can not be in a competitive PVP match but in pugs you can still kill a ranger through the roots with threatening rush unless they get so far away it is out of the range of threatening rush.
IF there is a bug, is not it. just see the difference in damage between a wms / reaping strike / ibs to realize that the "power" is the most irrelevant part of this equation, or is subject to some very strange calculation.
Note the patch: Feat: Deep Gash: This feat now benefits from Strength and other damage bonuses.
if there is a bug on the calculation of these bonuses/strength (probably for second too). But one thing I agree: for good or ill the text is outdated and I personally feel uncomfortable with it.
before mod2 only good cw did more dmg than me, now im usually ahead of them, if u have fd up feats dont blame mod2 or whatever, its just that u are an octopus
I still hit it very very low on gwfs. and not that "high" on other classes neither.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
1> Send a GF. 2> Send a DC, 3> , if you have the point cap, send another equal gwf, 4> some tr/rangers can do just well too. Period, gwf is stalled the whole match. Now if your team doesn't have at least one of these three to spare for this job, then that team shouldn't even be complaining of losing. As CW you should be rotating and fleeing from 1 x 1 (from any class, not just GWF). Some CW in my guild, if we do GvG, and they rotate and caught me fighting some other class, don't really matter what class is that, I am going down because their high DPS.
the problem of creating equal balance of all classes, that all class perform as good as in 1 x 1, as in 5 x 5, is that the game doesn't have diversity at all, and it becomes all classes with different skins only. i don't like that.
GWF is powerful on 1 x 1s, perform well on group killing, but he is easily canceled by other classes on objective.
You said that situations like a tr died for gwf, and what do you do?
well, you shouldn't of sent the tr alone to start with, or the cw in begin of the situation. Only some TR can perform well against gwf on 1 x 1, like blacksheep, we have 1 x 1s, and last time we stayed at the node for over 1hour until the first of us died. and it was a "balanced" duel, where both had their SF procced more than once. You should of come together. TR+CW is is enough dps to melt down the GWF, in equal gear. Now if you expect a 10k gs and a 10k tr to take care of a 14k gwf, it is not going to happen.
I do think tho, that CWs are the class that less evolved on last patch. But you know why? because crypt balance was solo for pve perspective, and CWs still are the best in PvE. I do think they need a slight buff for PvP tho. but it would be unfair for a class with so many controls, high DPS, 3 dodges to be able to 1 x 1, and massacre people in match.
If you watch the end game premades, you will see that although CWs probably die the most, they kill the most too. that alone shows their role. Squish, but killer. Therefore, they are not made to play 1 x 1 or solo plays.
Unlesss, you try to take advantage of the artefacts now, and try to build with high hp/regen/dr or deflect. that might make some interesting tank CWs. especially that tenes are not that useless on CWs since their debuffs are very high.
Now back to the subject of balance. If the game brings modes like 1 x 1s, deathmatches, then yes. I agree that something should be done to bring balance, or everyone would play GWFs for 1 x 1s.
But doing a balance for it, it should mean doing other rebalance for make gwf perform better against gf/dcs etc on nodes too. or then it will be gwf that will become crappy.
as I told you, the way it is. I would pick up a GF any day to replace a GWF in a premade because their node control is better. If nerf gwf will only make it useless on a high end pvp game. it may balance pvp for pugs, but it will kill the class in the end game, and then why play it if it can no longer kill people, and can no longer pick nodes when the other team is aware that only takes a gf and dc to drop gwf off node?
In end games premades, gwf will simply becomes a dead weight if a gf stalks him. if the enemy has a good rotation and canceling gwf, gwf is just useless (that the way it is right now). so would it be fair to nerf gwf, or buff too much the other class in a way they can kick most gwf butt and make the class completely useless for end game pvp?
because we all know, you can't rely on pugs, pugs most of them play without strategy. as a friend says, they don't have honor, they don't care for score, they care for kills. They dont care if they are losing for 500, all they care is if they can kill the GWF, or their target. if they die, they rage quit. By the way, a lot times I pug, and i fought iron vanguard teams with maybe 2 or more gwfs. and i could still win, and my pugs were doing just fine against them. it is not that bad. It is hilarious fighting a team with 2, 3 gwfs and when they lose they complain gwf is OP, and they had more of the same "op" class in their team, that stayed on the botton of the scoreboard
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Yes I can kill pugs with newer people quite easily especially after the new module. Today I think I had a game of 30-0, and my team wasn't OP, and the other pugs was pretty decent as well, and had better tactics, trying to backcap etc. I was just able to kill them like this because... they are too squishy... and I hit too hard on them. Before Shadowmantle, I would have died at least 5-6 times, but now I have SF, artifact, regen boon AND lifesteal and potions.
But does it matter? I could make forum signature with such scores like some here do, but it's of no value, serious matches are what actually counts.
It is very important to keep in mind I love GWFs and I have GWF friends, and I'm happy that they got fixed&improved, and that they can be best DPS in PvE and super good in PvP and so on. For example I have recommended good GWFs whenever possible and preferred them against TRs for CN when possible. Most of the NWO community is quite naive actually considering the GWF a bad class for PvE when things are quite the contrary.
So I don't want any nerfs to the class. Don't touch it. It looks quite OK to me.
Yet I also cannot come to terms with the extreme vulnerability of the CW. I also don't think however that CW should be buffed, as in just made stronger. I just think it needs to have some newer PvP-centric abilities, that we can use at the expense of others. I mentioned Invisibility and Mirror Images. One could slot these against Entangling Force or Chill Strike or something - when needed. A tradeoff for when the situation asks for it. I feel that one of our biggest issues is the lack of a fight-reset or escape. We can't pop up unstoppable, or ITC, or enter stealth... we have those little 3 teleports and then it's time to soak the damage.
Again, CWs should NOT be able to be SUPERIOR in 1 vs 1 situations. They should be just good enough that if we would take 20 people that would spectate a duel, 10 of them would think the CW would win.
If we would have an arena with spectators and put Gannicus (you can put a good TR such as Blacksheep as well, same result) and some of the best CWs in there, nobody would bet on them
However.
I agree completely with Gannicus that in the current situation of the game, with just 2 Domination Arenas, such things as 1 vs 1 balancing are a bit meh.
But in the hope for additional modes, such balancing would become important. It doesn't have to make the game boring, quite the contrary, we would have more tension and more unexpected results.
Just my 2c.
you still don't understand. , strneght, armor pen, debuffs, and vorpal and critical severity. yes depending on the case you will get 500% increase yeah.
I have 3.2k power, 27%+ armor pen, p vorpal. and it only hits about 100+- on gwfs and good gfs, a bit higher if a team mate is debuffing them. are you seriously saying it is overpower??
I hit higher in cws or trs, IF i apply the 3 stacks of student of sword on them.
deep gash is fine, before it was garbage, now it is better, but it is still close to "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>".
and a full power build is not good.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
I have to take almost 40% damage for a full unstoppable while Sent build takes maybe 8-12%.
Then again those poor sent specs can't hold a candle to my DPS......
This is before update.
http://i.imgur.com/xnXPZ6i.png
This is after update.
http://i.imgur.com/M7bLybN.png
I have 3,7K power.
Conclusion: you have no idea what you're talking about.
if tomorrow comes a nerf, ok, it makes sense to complain ... By now accepted his new damage which, incidentally, did not cause any imbalance the game. just made the acceptable class.
hey, looks like they did a gwf for pleasure of being oppressed minority. cheer up!
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I wish the designers told us what is supposed to be its purpose.
the ibs increased by 10% damage with executioner style . whereas IBS affects up to 3 targets, increase by 10% means 30% increase ... counting unstoppable / bonus wms a ibs can now take 90% more damage.
repeating: the swordmaster / destroyer nearly doubled the damage of ibs (vs 3 opponents).
what I mean is that these values are high, but are proportional to overall projection of the class (I think). the gwf jumped based on what he was in module 1, but in relation to the cw / ranger are on the same "level".
not gonna lie, everyday eye on other forums to see if any specific damage to our complaint there. the problema'e always pvp in relation to resistance sentinel, so ... I think the devs deserve the benefit of the doubt as to bleed.
1. It would hurt Sentinel much. Their tree is to lose less health and to gain unstoppable so more.
2. Destroyer don't need this junk change. We have roar + our capstone. So it's a specious to only nerf sentinel.
Glass cannon building don't need 70% uptime unstoppable. That will the case, because 50% HP lost = unstoppable is easy achievable in T2 dungeon by trash mobs for a glass cannon. To kill her lack of surviving to gain more unstoppable as it is? Yeah really...
Roar give us up to 30% Determination and has a -25% CD on top of this against a Sentinel. That is ONE Point we have unstoppable times nearly of them. The second is our Capstone. For every damage done, we gain Determination. So we don't need such excuse that 'Destroyer lack unstoppable' and so unstoppable mechanic need a rebalance. That's false. Especially because it hurts sentinel tree centric point: MORE Surviving. Penalizing this path is a selfish argument. Q.Q my GWF with 27% DR isn't so good at survive as a Sentinel with 50%+!
If you really want an improvement for Destroyer, then buff the Capstone Determination gain(and that our Encounter do the +10% damage out of unstoppable too)!
It comes down to this. Determination/Unstoppable is a mechanic so a fighter class stands a chance against ranged classes able to pew pew him down or control him 100-0.
In PVP, TANKY classes get the added benefit of extra synergy WITH unstoppable. If 10k damage is directed towards two players.
Player A) Dest GWF with 26k HP
Player
They both build the same amount of determination from the damage, however the Dest spec GWF with 35% DR will take 6500 damage leaving him with 75% HP.
A Sent with 50% Dr takes only 5k leaing him with 86% of his HP.
Either make determination gained based upon HP lost OR the same effect would be if you made determination gain based upon NET damage taken.
So a Dest taking 6500 will build MORE determination than a Sent taking 5000 damage since he lost much more of his HP.
So what this would mean, the MORE squishy you are the MORE you rely on unstoppable and the BETTER it is for you.
If you made Unstoppable available at say 20% HP lost. A 26k HP Dest would only have to lose 5200 HP meaning PRE DR damage of 8000 on average where as an HP stacked Sent @ 36k HP would have to lose 7200 with a PRE DR of 15000 damage.
All of this gain is just purely based on a % of HP lost....
Then yes, stacking more Def/defl will help you build determination LESS meaning LESS unstoppable, but you also NEED it less.
Where as a Dest GWF NEEDS unstoppable more because he has less DR.
Doing this will help non sent specs be somewhat viable in PVP, where as currently its Sent or GTFO.
So basically the OP was wrong and this thread is pointless.
Your looking at PVE, try looking at pvp and how a GF can take you from 100-0 because of prone locks. Wont matter if you get x10000% more determination gained from DEALING damage, heck it wouldnt matter if you gained a FULL deter bar from hitting just 1 at will.
If you cant hit anyone, you cant gain any deter.
When you compare the flat EHP of the two builds:
26k HP @ 35% DR (40k EHP) versus 38k HP @ 52% (80k) DR The difference is just dumb almost double.... Then add things like deflect and its even MORE then that.... Take another step and add things like unstoppable + regen + Lifesteal in later.. But the difference just on the amount of damage to take them 100-0
Now I get a PVE Dest GWF obviously cant compete with a PVP Sent GWF in pvp effectiveness. But show me a high level premade who runs with a Dest GWF over a Sent GWF and ill then claim GWFs are OP as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right now...
BTW I have 2 60 GWFs decked out so this isnt coming from a QQ who doesnt play one. I know the power they have, its really dumb.
The point of this thread again is that NonSents are worthless in pvp. The reason is because of the amazing synergy Sents have with regards to unstoppable.
On AVERAGE, my Sent needs only lose about 10% or less of his HP to gain Unstoppable and get 8% temp HP AND! Heal himself for a base of 5% (putting me back to 95% with another 8% temp HP)
A perfect example is seen here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GEX1HJOt5Bc#t=47
I go INTO the fight at about 95% hp. I pop unstoppable at what? 85%+ and jump back up to over 90% HP PLUS 8% temp hp.
With an equiv Dest specced GWF at even 30k HP Youll have to lose much more % of your HP to get unstoppable...
Again,
Why is it NO GWFs in high lvl pm vs pm are non-Sents?
Because Determination is build on Damage taken, not on HP lost. It's the same on Guard AP gain. So it's not fair that sentinel gain less because of their tree spec? Deflect is a determination fiend. You know that fact?
This makes no sense, do you realize what someone just posted above? DR/deflect REDUCE deter gain... Thats ALREADY how it is.
What I am contending that that ONE possible fix for GWFs is to make determination gained a % of HP. The more HP you stack, the more damage you must take for unstoppable.
What you are saying is ALREADY in the game, more DR = less deter gained. Deflect = less deter gained.
But what ISNT in the game is the fact that HP stacking Sents lose about 8-10% HP to pop unstoppable and HEAL themselves for half the damage it took to make them pop unstoppable while a NON-Sent takes 30%+ and sometimes DOESN'T heal 5%.
Now I get if you want to be good at pvp build for pvp, etc. But when the class builds/mechanics are such that essentially ONLY one build is viable for pvp, maybe thats cause for a "rebalance" of the class? Or the builds?
Then you play your class false. As Destroyer GWF i go out of a 20min battle with 4 place, 2 death against an hybrid Sentinel(or maybe full Sentinel) that had Soulforge but 5 death + another GWF + DC in their team.
And if you get 1 rotated by another DPS class, that doesn't matter for me. That's balance. DPS vs. DPS = win with first/good rotation. So what's your point? Sentinel is more of an PVP spec, so complaining about that fact, is plain stupid.
As a protector GF i can't OS/1 Rotate glass cannons or like them. So what? I need huge Dmg buffs? It's not my tree centric. End of story. Destroyer is based on DPS. End of story.
WRONG.
The reason why NON-SENT are worthless in PvP is because of being a glass canon and the same goes for GF. Both classes do not have a dodge and if you are low HP and built like paper, can easily be 100 to 0 by a single player. CWs, TRs, HRs and other tanky GF/GWFs will destroy the glass canon GWF/GFs due to the damage difference between builds is marginal.
With the current state of the game glass canon in PvP is just gimping yourself and should only be used in PvE.