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The PvP vs PvE discussion
spellwarden
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 357 Bounty Hunter
Please read before making up your mind about responding to this thread. Approach it with an open mind.
I think that PvP, while fun, is a detriment to a game like NW. The idea was first strange to me, when one of my old guilds members proposed it. I was defensive, since I like the idea of PvP. But after gestation of the idea, I realized that he was right. Mostly because even though I like the idea of PvP in action-rpg's, I have never liked the implementation. I understand why many do, and I have not found a game that does action-rpg competetive play as a primary. And that is why I think that there is always a side-community in any MMO that focuses solely on PvP. Simply because they have no where else to go.
But that is for later. First a list of why I think that PvP should be dropped from NW:
1. It takes away time from content-adding activity because of:
1.1: Balancing of classes, skills, and items so that nothing gives an overly unfair advantage, nor can be exploited for easy kills, unkillability etc. (example being early D3 health-regen items and the resistance-shield and diamond-skin making Wiz unkillable)
1.2 Balancing of classes so that one style of play is not superior to all others (ie: GWF suck in PvP! *update* GWF are OP in PvP!)
1.3 Balancing of items so that they are viable in PvE at the SAME time as they are balanced in PvP in all manner of set-ups. And that includes items for ALL levels.
1.4 A class based on consistent-but-low dmg, versions of support like fer instance CC, etc become unviable because they have no use in PvP, or are just booring as frekk to play against.
2. It is generally not as fun as a game built for competetive play
3. It creates alot of frustration in the community that maby even leads to a greater loss of player-base than the gain from having PvP generates.
3.1 this frustration spills over into other social spheres, and creates a more negative community, and as such, less fun to play.
Sadly there is this idea that an MMO should include all forms of game-play: competetive, cooperative, singelplay, exploration, developmental, story, and dress-up. All MMO's trie to be the game to end all other games, which I think is a destructive way to view gaming.
The idea is that people will become bored if there is no change in activity, and I am not contesting that. But I propose a different approach. ALLOW people to play other games, but provide a game that people want to return to. By specializing towards one mode of play instead of many, testing of content will go faster, there is less chance of missed "exploits" entering the game, and if a player needs a competetive experience, allow them to go searching for it elsewhere.
As anyone who has ever worked in a kitchen knows, a long menu means that each plate has exponetially worse quality for each additional menu-item that needs attention from the chefs. I believe that the same is true for games. Try to do to much, and eventually the quality-decrease will affect your over all experience. Others might understand it as trying to have a conversation while typing; they are two compleatly different activities, and are hard to combine.
Now, I understand why PvP is popular. It presents a type of competetive game-play that is not available in other games. Sadly there is noone that has tried to create a fully competetive game based on the action-rpg formula. Atleast I have found none.
And I love cooperation far more than I like competetive or single-player. So that is perhaps the biggest reason I would like to see NWO to become a pure Co-op game.
Imagine my proposition for a while
The hedonic treadmill in this case would not be unlimited levels. But addition of skilltree-combinations, faster addition of items and no need to balance them below a certain point, since items would be cheaper once they loose their relative potency. More dress-upp since items could be produced with varying versions of appearance, more classes since it is faster testing them.
But perhaps most important. Dev created dungeons that allow for less repetition, more exploration, and more sense of accomplishment.
If an item's dmg go beyond 1000, use abrivations. It would feel stupid to have an item add 100 000 000 000 dmg. But 100B is still understandable.
Since there is an AH, once a player hits 60, they can join the fun by just spending a few AD and go for the lowest viable dungeons. Or just increase the dungeon-drops of the lowest dungeons relative to a fixed number of the large population.
If the pace is fast enough, you can even reintroduce dungeon-designs with different textures cannibalize from another old dungeon, since people are not yet sick to death of that dungeon. Or make minor alterations/additions/subtractions that are just significant enough to make 'em feel new.
In a very real sense, skipping PvP allows to 80/20 a game. And if you keep working at 100% of the pace, then you should have 400% the content in the same amount of time. Imagine that. Instead of 5 dungeons in 3 months, you would have 20 dungeons in 3 months. Classes might not be viable for such an expansion. But who cares, you would not dread seeing the blue of spell-plague for the annoyingly illusive item. Because even if you are supremely unlucky, or just dont have that much time to play. Give it a month, and you will have 100% chance of drop, and 6 new dungeons to run through.
click here to read the original opposing OP written by godlysoul.
*moderation note: the two opposing threads discussing pvp > pve and pve > pvp have been merged. if this discussion cannot be kept civil and respectful, the entire thread will be closed. please be mindful that continually attacking any and every post that opposes your opinion is considered power-posting and is not allowed. this includes continual discussion about poll viability and percentages. i'd keep the sarcasm to a minimum in this thread as it's just going to be perceived as trolling. and post violations in this thread will be removed without warning, the posters subject to having their forum privileges temporarily or permanently revoked.
I think that PvP, while fun, is a detriment to a game like NW. The idea was first strange to me, when one of my old guilds members proposed it. I was defensive, since I like the idea of PvP. But after gestation of the idea, I realized that he was right. Mostly because even though I like the idea of PvP in action-rpg's, I have never liked the implementation. I understand why many do, and I have not found a game that does action-rpg competetive play as a primary. And that is why I think that there is always a side-community in any MMO that focuses solely on PvP. Simply because they have no where else to go.
But that is for later. First a list of why I think that PvP should be dropped from NW:
1. It takes away time from content-adding activity because of:
1.1: Balancing of classes, skills, and items so that nothing gives an overly unfair advantage, nor can be exploited for easy kills, unkillability etc. (example being early D3 health-regen items and the resistance-shield and diamond-skin making Wiz unkillable)
1.2 Balancing of classes so that one style of play is not superior to all others (ie: GWF suck in PvP! *update* GWF are OP in PvP!)
1.3 Balancing of items so that they are viable in PvE at the SAME time as they are balanced in PvP in all manner of set-ups. And that includes items for ALL levels.
1.4 A class based on consistent-but-low dmg, versions of support like fer instance CC, etc become unviable because they have no use in PvP, or are just booring as frekk to play against.
2. It is generally not as fun as a game built for competetive play
3. It creates alot of frustration in the community that maby even leads to a greater loss of player-base than the gain from having PvP generates.
3.1 this frustration spills over into other social spheres, and creates a more negative community, and as such, less fun to play.
Sadly there is this idea that an MMO should include all forms of game-play: competetive, cooperative, singelplay, exploration, developmental, story, and dress-up. All MMO's trie to be the game to end all other games, which I think is a destructive way to view gaming.
The idea is that people will become bored if there is no change in activity, and I am not contesting that. But I propose a different approach. ALLOW people to play other games, but provide a game that people want to return to. By specializing towards one mode of play instead of many, testing of content will go faster, there is less chance of missed "exploits" entering the game, and if a player needs a competetive experience, allow them to go searching for it elsewhere.
As anyone who has ever worked in a kitchen knows, a long menu means that each plate has exponetially worse quality for each additional menu-item that needs attention from the chefs. I believe that the same is true for games. Try to do to much, and eventually the quality-decrease will affect your over all experience. Others might understand it as trying to have a conversation while typing; they are two compleatly different activities, and are hard to combine.
Now, I understand why PvP is popular. It presents a type of competetive game-play that is not available in other games. Sadly there is noone that has tried to create a fully competetive game based on the action-rpg formula. Atleast I have found none.
And I love cooperation far more than I like competetive or single-player. So that is perhaps the biggest reason I would like to see NWO to become a pure Co-op game.
Imagine my proposition for a while
The hedonic treadmill in this case would not be unlimited levels. But addition of skilltree-combinations, faster addition of items and no need to balance them below a certain point, since items would be cheaper once they loose their relative potency. More dress-upp since items could be produced with varying versions of appearance, more classes since it is faster testing them.
But perhaps most important. Dev created dungeons that allow for less repetition, more exploration, and more sense of accomplishment.
If an item's dmg go beyond 1000, use abrivations. It would feel stupid to have an item add 100 000 000 000 dmg. But 100B is still understandable.
Since there is an AH, once a player hits 60, they can join the fun by just spending a few AD and go for the lowest viable dungeons. Or just increase the dungeon-drops of the lowest dungeons relative to a fixed number of the large population.
If the pace is fast enough, you can even reintroduce dungeon-designs with different textures cannibalize from another old dungeon, since people are not yet sick to death of that dungeon. Or make minor alterations/additions/subtractions that are just significant enough to make 'em feel new.
In a very real sense, skipping PvP allows to 80/20 a game. And if you keep working at 100% of the pace, then you should have 400% the content in the same amount of time. Imagine that. Instead of 5 dungeons in 3 months, you would have 20 dungeons in 3 months. Classes might not be viable for such an expansion. But who cares, you would not dread seeing the blue of spell-plague for the annoyingly illusive item. Because even if you are supremely unlucky, or just dont have that much time to play. Give it a month, and you will have 100% chance of drop, and 6 new dungeons to run through.
click here to read the original opposing OP written by godlysoul.
*moderation note: the two opposing threads discussing pvp > pve and pve > pvp have been merged. if this discussion cannot be kept civil and respectful, the entire thread will be closed. please be mindful that continually attacking any and every post that opposes your opinion is considered power-posting and is not allowed. this includes continual discussion about poll viability and percentages. i'd keep the sarcasm to a minimum in this thread as it's just going to be perceived as trolling. and post violations in this thread will be removed without warning, the posters subject to having their forum privileges temporarily or permanently revoked.
Post edited by spellwarden on
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Comments
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Anecdotal statements should be presented as arguments, and not as facts. Sorry, you failed.
While I agree that the population is not very large, and as such, this is actually more anecdotal. I would still point you in the direction of this poll
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?538131-do-you-pve
71% plays this game mostly for the PvE.
what if i do not like other classes and refuse to start again ?!
and why should i feel like doing that in 1st place ?!
To sum it up. new gear will be added constantly in addition to new dungeons. So what you would be doing, is finding new gear. It is an old old action-rpg tradition. If there was a dynamic drop-rate, then if you are head of the curve, you will still be grinding for that perfect set when the rest of the players start catching up. And as such, you will prolly never find yourself without things to do, items to grind. And if you do, a hiatus of 1month will kill noone.
Money may come from skins/slots/companions and if they get it right from streams/tournaments (yes.. i am so looking at RIOT, but not only).
A rank system with certain unique skins for top players can solve the problem of why u want to play pvp :P
So that if you wanted to PVP, you wouldn't even be allowed to do so with a PVE character. You'd only be able to level up your character with PVP, and use only PVP-specific gear and specs.
To the point: pointsman (pun quasily intended
And to facexcontrol: You would go for the next dungeon, to get new gear, so you can reach the next dungeon, to get new gear, so you can reach the next dungeon, to get new gear.
If the PvE is a means to an end for you, then you will not like this version of treadmilling. But if you enjoy the dungeons, just tire of the repetition. Then you would like it.
If you are only here for PvP, is there no other game that is more fun? I played alot of PvP, and it is bare-boned CC fest, or getting steam-rolled for various reasons (PvP clans, time-outs of players, sucky players, exploits, etc), and it simply is the same as any other PvP in action-rpg's. It is fun in theorem, not in practice... for me.
@ikeepit3hunna - You provide no basis for the validity of your statement. I doubt very, very, very seriously that PvP players are the only players who buy ZEN. I'm more than certain that the collectors and the dress-up players do, as well (amongst others). If you're going to make smartass comments, at least back them up with some fact-checking, please.
I think that Spellwarden did a good job of presenting his case intelligently and constructively. I can definitely see how the developers could do more for content development if they didn't have to worry about PvP balancing issues. My comment to Banaanc notwithstanding, however, there is a significant portion of NW's fan base who do indeed enjoy PvP. Neglecting them may not cut out the game's financial heart (as Ikeepit3hunna seems to want to suggest), but it would cut off its left arm.
In the end, everyone has their preferred style of play. Spellwarden prefers co-op. I prefer solo. Others prefer PvP. And I'm still waiting for the day when there are enough fashion items to where there are "costume contests" in the Tower of Alteration. At the end of the day, Cryptic is bound by PWE to cater to as many of us as possible in order to make the most money.
So, I'll look forward to seeing you as we pass by each other in Protector's Enclave, me on my way to a Foundry mission and you on your way to Gauntlegrym. And Spellwarden will probably be busy pulling a party together to take on an epic dungeon.
Anecdotal though that statement was, you're setting it up to be more preposterous than it likely is. Linking that poll is pretty silly, as well. Even though you appropriately lampshaded it, a forum poll with ~47 respondents doesn't even bear mentioning.
While players will spend money on frilly outfits and unicorns (I know I do), which players do you imagine are willing to purchase the most Zen? You don't need a spreadsheet to make the reasonable assumption that players who enjoy competition will pay for convenience. PvP is the ideal outlet for competitive players, especially those who fall into the working adult category, hence income.
There were some good thoughts in your original post, but limiting the options for play is a tough idea to support when the game doesn't give you all that many to begin with. Handling PvE vs. PvP balance is the developers' job, and there's no earthly reason why they can't further tweak power effects specifically for PvP if they want to (and thus avoid negatively impacting PvE gameplay).
If you're concerned about the health of the game, you should probably be encouraging additional PvP content since it helps keep both the hardcore PvP customer and what I imagine to be the average NW customer engaged. You tend to find very extreme viewpoints on forums, but I highly doubt that the majority of the customer base is so polarized as 100% PvP or 100% PvE.
Anyway, as banaanc said, they've done virtually nothing for PvP since beta, anyway, so the discussion is probably moot.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
That said, I generally play action RPGs, beat it (end level) move on and don't look back. I did the same thing with the white elephant in the room (WoW) in that I got a (at the time) max level shaman, disliked how PVP was, disliked raiding, left.
I still play NWO because of the PVP. I have 3 level 60s, 2 lvl 50s due to pvp. While I'm not a high roller, I have spent cash on the game, guardian pack, zen pumps and I plan to get the shadowmantle pack (if it's an actual pack and not that hunter booster... thing). So if you took out PVP, you'd basically end why I play NWO.
I think the main thing that has to be remembered about NWO is that it's not even a year old. It took other MMOs year(s) to get to the point that mass people enjoyed all they had to offer. NWO is working to bring out expansions steadily, they aren't giving in to power creep of more levels/higher tier gear. I'm not saying they can't screw it up, I am saying that they seem to have a good pattern so far.
Biggest error in this thread is ALL the MASS players who played this game OB till now and have quit BECAUSE of lack of PVP.
Its basically like saying were on an island where all the blue eyed people die off because rabid monkeys cant stand blue eyed people, then after years of that happening wondering why there are only mostly brown eyed people left...
You also should consider the fact that people who pvp who are sick of lack of content who have voiced their opinions on the forums many many times, probably are not on the forums even if they still log on because they are just not interested in saying whats already been said.
I hate to say this, but an MMO without PVP is a failing game... PVP competition is what fuels the game. Why do you think so many people have quit and the numbers are so low?
Its in part due to lack of PVE content, but that is very limited by resources... A MAJOR part is because of lack of pvp.
People dont spend real $ to buy zen to get better gear in order to farm PVE faster, most of the PVE croud will buy cosmetic things which DO bring in significant $.
But compare all of that to a R10 or a perfect enchant.... your looking at MILLIONs of AD for one enchant. How many mounts can you get for 1 R10? Or 1 GTE?
People buy gear with real $ to try and be better than other people.... what is that called? Player versus player or PVP for short.
This game has been bleeding players not because they cant develop PVE content faster (once a quarter is pretty decent PVE content imo) its because they havnt spent a lick of resources in PVP.
GG doesn't count.
Seriously though, it's overly long and really quite tedious since it uses the same domination mechanic but features hordes of players running from node to node. I've played matches where there was hardly any PvP because players on both sides stuck together and ran a clockwork rotation of capping nodes.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
First, they have not added any content. But they have changed skills around a bit. As a beta-tester, I can attest to this. But I understand that the only Real content they have added is gauntlegrym.
But that is beside the point. I am not saying that everyone is polarized in the slightest. I am just saying that you can play more than 1 game. If you got two games that provide a more fun experience respectivley in their own domain, would you not play both?
One team providing me with all my gaming-needs is not feasible. Look at WoW. They are a GIANT, and even they are relativly slow to produce content. Perhaps because of PvP balancing constraints... just saying.
And they have a large player-base that love taking down new dungeons, and become dedicated to be the first to do so. If you provided new dungeons at a faster interval (say 1 each second week), people would be gearing up towards it, organizing potential group-setups, and it would be fast enough to keep players interested. As I stated earlier, if you provided dungeons fast enough, you could cannibalize textures and paths and sort of lego a new one together. The mobs would just increase in level, and looks. And you would ease the content-addition some, I imagine. So eventually you would be able to add content weekly, and adding game-additions at a slower rate.
I sometimes move my furiture around to change things up. Does not mean that my furniture changes attributes, just that the room feels new enough that I wont be so bored.
Is there any real evidence to support this claim? Other than just anecdotal stories?
Speaking for myself, I have not spent one penny on PVP-related stuff, but I have spent money on Zen to buy crafting assets and to buy enchanted keys. (rarely - yeah I know, it's gambling). So I don't know how you can state with such certainty that people don't spend money on the PVE-portion part of the game for things other than "cosmetic things".
But that *is* PVP - you are competing against other players and not against NPCs. So I don't see how that "doesn't count".
Don't think so literally. It doesn't count in the sense that it nominally provides a PvP experience that very few people actually want to experience since it's the exact same thing the current Domination PvP provides, but only during specific times of the day, requiring a greater time commitment, and without even the urgency and constant action of the existing mode.
Is it PvP content? Technically, yes. But I don't "count" it.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I respect your opinions, and to offer my own in response, I say that I should not have to choose a different game for PvP content if I don't wish to. I enjoy NW PvP precisely because it's significantly different in style and execution from most other MMORPG PvP offerings. If I wanted to stand around clicking targets and mashing F1-F12, I could be playing a dozen other games that provide that functionality.
I'm resistant to the notion of shutting out PvP because it takes so little to keep it fresh. Even if all they did was add a couple of new maps to Domination, the replay value would be significantly boosted. A new scoring mode, new optional queues for GS or party compositions.... Players will create their own fun if provided a sufficiently interesting Lego set.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
do not respond to this moderation notice. instead, send a PM to any of the community moderators and/or the community managers to discuss it. thanks!
Well let's see... there's:
- Sharandar
- Dread Ring (module 2)
- Leveling up new characters
- Achieving titles
- Grinding to get perfect enchants
- Conquering the toughest dungeons in the game (Epic DV, CN, MC, new one in Mod 2), and with each character
- Helping your guildies/buddies run their dungeons to get their gear
- Running Foundries
- Authoring Foundries
- Crafting
- Collections (module 2)
It's not all about just getting gear.
- Sharandar
Done
- Dread Ring (module 2)
Won't take long either
- Leveling up new characters
Only have HR to level.
- Achieving titles
Got most of them.
- Grinding to get perfect enchants
Already at R7-8 and Greaters, grindy grind is boring.
- Conquering the toughest dungeons in the game (Epic DV, CN, MC, new one in Mod 2), and with each character
Done, except with GWF aand new module.
- Helping your guildies/buddies run their dungeons to get their gear
Do this anyway, but I have less active guildies each week.
- Running Foundries
No reward. With limited time in the day, I have to picky about the ones I do run. Foundry needs a save system imo.
- Authoring Foundries
No thanks.
- Crafting
Hit 20 on all of them.
- Collections (module 2)
Oh yay...
True it's not all about gear, but it is about new experiences and every PvP game is a fresh experience. Can't always say the same about PvE, especially the campaign modules.
All this is done to get your gear ... but WHAT U ACTUALLY WILL DO , ONCE U GET THE FULL OF IT ?
dance naked in Protector Enclave and spam the forums for more content
Not for me, anyway. Some of it is done just for the sake of doing it.
That being said, couldn't the people who like PvE play a different game? Why are the PvP people to blame for this?
If there is one thing that I have learned about this game, it is that everyone blames what they don't like for the problems in this game. Also, there is an increasingly larger separation between the PvP players, and the PvE players.
Removing PvP would be a huge mistake. It would not only cause the loss of a lot of the most active players, but slow down the trickle of new players into the game. So I have my own suggestions...
1- PvP matching (To stop the PvP raging currently going on)
2- More PvP content (To keep us busy
3- Make PvP balancing changes not affect PvE (To stop the yelling at each other xD)
At the end of the day, the negative community is not that big and it only grows when we let it. I know it sounds cheesy, but lets work together with the Devs to make this game more fun and satisfying for everyone
The flaw in that logic honestly is that each class could have a daily that deals 100k dmg and PVE-ers would claim working as intended since it doesnt affect anyone just gives benefits in faster clear times, PVPers would claim its completely broken and needs a nerf...
Clearly it wasnt fully balanced in the first place.
I agree with Kaos, more pvp needs to be implemented in the game. period. a removal will kill the last breath of hope this game still has... deepening pvp will bring life to this game again.
Hopefully before its too late....
I find it similar to how a DM would plan out encounters: you know what your party's composition is, and if you don't find a way to make each player feel useful, most of them will not be having any fun while one or two players gleefully mop up all the enemies. It's not the players' fault that their characters are extremely effective at overcoming the challenges that you created; the onus is on the DM to make a variety of encounters to allow everyone a moment in the spotlight.
So I recommend to people who have a beef with PvP balance affecting PvE gameplay to 1) suggest separate mechanics for PvP powers if necessary (there is already a precedent with the way control powers work) and 2) campaign for improvements to dungeon mechanics, not for elimination of PvP.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH