Again the attack on wanting a more defined range role in the HR by claiming it's a hybrid. I'm really frustrated in trying to explain that the current style of HR is NOT a hybrid but a melee with some longer range capabilities. With the exception of Marauder's Escape and a "lifesaver" Daily there is no viable means to garner enough time and/or space to use either a casting time delayed or long range improved damage skill outside of the initial combat start. That alone makes the "hit-and-run" concept of a hybrid role totally void.
No offence, but if i remember correctly even the ranger - preview trailer stated that the class is a mix/hybrid. I apologize in advance if i'm wrong which i may be, since i cannot find the trailer on youtube anymore.
volt the difference is no single class demands using a particular feature offered that the other classes don't need. The power potential between classes always has been and always will be an issue regardless of how truly balanced they are. As for Neverwinter, those skills CAN be spammed for optimal potential of the class but don't HAVE to be spammed to survive.
No offence, but if i remember correctly even the ranger - preview trailer stated that the class is a mix/hybrid. I apologize in advance if i'm wrong which i may be, since i cannot find the trailer on youtube anymore.
I believe you're correct but as you already quoted me, the current build is not aimed at a hybrid but mainly melee focused by preventing actually allowing effective use of both styles of combat. Even a 70-30% split is not truly attainable in solo play unless the HR keeps pre nerf and then it's ranged primary.
No offence, but if i remember correctly even the ranger - preview trailer stated that the class is a mix/hybrid. I apologize in advance if i'm wrong which i may be, since i cannot find the trailer on youtube anymore.
watch neverwinter cinematic, tr can parry and blink, mage uses shortsword, cleric can destroy undead, gwf can throw weapons and tr can pick up 1handed sword that works as 2handed for her size http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZq8B2xYeg
watch neverwinter cinematic, tr can parry and blink, mage uses shortsword, cleric can destroy undead, gwf can throw weapons and tr can pick up 1handed sword that works as 2handed for her size http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZq8B2xYeg
Sorry, but that's not gameplay footage. A cgi trailer cannot be taken as actual content. The one i was referring to, had gameplay footage. There were gameplay footages for every class pre-launch btw, clearly showing that TR cannot blink and what each class is capable of doing, etc. ^^
While veteran Great Weapon Fighters and Trickster Rogues prefer to strike opponents up close, the Hunter Ranger can effectively eliminate foes from afar. If enemies continue to close their distance, however, the Hunter Ranger can switch to their razor-edged blades to finish the kill with melee abilities. The class’ versatility and damage-dealing capability will make the Hunter Ranger an essential member of your next dungeon delve party.
From Cryptic's own preview page of the HR stating very clearly that it is an either/or/both hybrid. Wording can be tricky but demanding a hybrid build would've changed "HR can switch" to "HR switches" in the 2nd sentence. But that's getting picky and beyond the point now. I believe we all understand that HR is to be a hybrid class, it's just nothing near that yet.
Sorry, that was from Perfect World's page (maybe one and the same?)
You don't have to switch at all. At no point do you HAVE to go to melee. You can, with careful use of pots and your avoidance, dodging and pulling mobs slowly and appropriately, stay alive doing only melee or only ranged. The same holds true for all tabbed abilities in every class (minus CW, which doesn't really have a tab ability anyhow). And it holds true for HR.
BUT: you are penalizing your potential in all classes by doing so. Sure, you can face tank things as a GF and never block. But you honestly think you won't have to pot, or at least, take long breaks in between fights to get healed by your companion?
And stealth is NOT a requirement for a solo TR. But again, long breaks, careful play, etc.
This just hasn't changed for HR. My opinion is the damage is a little low right now, but not that the whole class is FORCED to by hybrid. Only that, like four of the five other classes, that tab ability isn't an 'either/or' option, it's a fundamental part of the class that the devs have used to balance the class to be effective.
You're abilities have been leveled and scaled as a GWF with the thought that you WILL be using unstoppable. Those missions and playtestings with a GF are built on the assumption that they WILL be using block. TR and stealth is obviously in mine on mission layout, due to mob placement and ai reaction. And that DC is a force multiplyer with his tab ability. All in all, they are designing the classes to use their tab functions, not to avoid them.
We CAN avoid them. But by doing so, we limit ourselves artificially.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2013
. . . . . Players in our guild who have been playing the ranger from the beginning and to now, they are playing this class very successfully. Two of which have been, and continue to after the patch, play their hunter rangers mostly ranged. I would highly suggest to start talking to folks who are playing this class successfully for build options and suggestions. No one I have personally talked to in our guild who are currently playing the ranger from it's release to preview to current, feels the class is broken. They feel it is on track for what the class was meant to be. One of which is holding his own well in Mount Hotenow, he says sure he dies often but he also dies often on most classes at level in Mt. Hotenow. He did say he has a nice blue bow which probably helps but is still able to play mostly ranged after the patch.
. . . . . I strongly suggest to test out builds and talk to those successfully playing their ranger as mostly ranged.
As I posted earlier, it's not impossible to balance the HR, merely that Cryptic has opted for a very difficult way to go about it. HR MAY very well be survivable only using one form of combat or the other by the time it goes live, I just don't see that currently being the case. By the looks of Zebular's post I might be incorrect in this assumption and I'm just a crappy player.
Most of my leveling with my HR was done pre nerf so I'm not certain how difficult it is to do so now at the lower levels but the amount of potions needed the last few levels far out weighs the need I had during the entire leveling of my TR on live in which I never once used Stealth. Similar styles of play (hit-and-run, rogue melee/ranger ranged) both with a Cleric Disciple although the HR's was better equipped.
I play tested HRs pre and post ranged nerf, and post melee buff, to level 41, before getting frustrated, yesterday, with the whole process.
Of all of the classes in Neverwinter, the HR is the only one I've played that I can't get to level 30 without a single death.
Geeze, Who am I kidding? I couldn't even get one to level 10 without a single death.
Which, if nothing else, should tell you how far from ready to go live, it is.
Go for the eyes, Boo!GO FOR THE EYES!!! (Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
I play tested HRs pre and post ranged nerf, and post melee buff, to level 41, before getting frustrated, yesterday, with the whole process.
Of all of the classes in Neverwinter, the HR is the only one I've played that I can't get to level 30 without a single death.
Geeze, Who am I kidding? I couldn't even get one to level 10 without a single death.
Which, if nothing else, should tell you how far from ready to go live, it is.
I died 1 time leveling up to 60. On the last boss of Hotenow (fire giant guy). That is not counting a few deaths by "Marauder's Escape" when I "escaped" right off a cliff, lol. I find the HR to be much easier to keep alive than my GF. The GF is tough, but he is not mobile. The HR is almost tough AND mobile. I have not had this much fun leveling a toon since my favorite toon in City of Heroes.
I died 1 time leveling up to 60. On the last boss of Hotenow (fire giant guy). That is not counting a few deaths by "Marauder's Escape" when I "escaped" right off a cliff, lol. I find the HR to be much easier to keep alive than my GF. The GF is tough, but he is not mobile. The HR is almost tough AND mobile. I have not had this much fun leveling a toon since my favorite toon in City of Heroes.
So it's ready to go live? Great!
Go for the eyes, Boo!GO FOR THE EYES!!! (Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
I died 1 time leveling up to 60. On the last boss of Hotenow (fire giant guy). That is not counting a few deaths by "Marauder's Escape" when I "escaped" right off a cliff, lol. I find the HR to be much easier to keep alive than my GF. The GF is tough, but he is not mobile. The HR is almost tough AND mobile. I have not had this much fun leveling a toon since my favorite toon in City of Heroes.
I loved my mastermind villain, personally. One of my top 3 favorite characters. Hassad the Assassin from CoV, then Na'Djin the everything from SWG (pre-cu, pre-NGE to game close), and finally Ruze from EvE online.
On topic: Warzog seems to be having issues. This may be something out of his personal control, or it may be a client glitch, or any number of things. Most 'elite' gamers like myself hate to admit that we may not be the best at something, but it's possible Warzog simply doesn't sync well with HR.
I know that my experiences right now aren't making me love the class. I know I'm good at how I play, but one thing I love with this game is that each class IS very different and requires a different level of thinking. You can fudge some over the borders and play them all on a baseline, but you'll never compare to those who actually sync with the class' design.
I see this every day with my GWF. I sync. Many others do not.
But from his viewpoints, I doubt Warzog is the type of player who would feel or see himself as not being good at a class. No insults intended at all. It simply sounds as if he feels that he can do it all, and if he can't, then something is wrong with the class itself, not him.
Which, to be fair, may actually be true. Or it may be ego and bias and unhelpful to giving feedback on the class. I can't be the judge of that, though. I can only judge myself and my opinions.
My opinion on HR right now? It's not how I like to play, and when I do make my character, he'll probably be leveled through leadership and then equipped through guild runs like many of my alts. I had hopes he'd become my main (I'm an archer and bowhunter in real life, and love hunting, as well as the character archetype that usually is associated with hunters and rangers in other games).
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
On page 22 of the feedback thread for the HR, I gave a list of the ranged skills-with their in-game descriptions.
On page 34 of the feedback thread for the HR, I gave a critique of the powers I had access to.
On page 39 of the feedback thread for the HR, I did a comparison of the HR's combat abilities prior to, and post patch. I explained the effects of trying to play the HR as a melee only, ranged only, and as a dual-stanced ranger. I gave my opinion of the class, gave suggestions for improvements, and noted where I felt no improvement was needed.
I then was jumped on by players and moderators for my suggestions. I was told in no uncertain terms, in this thread, that the HR will not be playable as a dual-wield, or as a ranged only, but only as a dual-stanced ranger.
From the start, I was ghung ho to test the HR. I must have made 20-30 of them trying every combination of races, abilities, and powers.
I restarted after the patches, and kept on testing. I tried boosting morale, only to get jumped on, and slapped down.
If you've been playing the HR lately, almost every zone is empty, or near empty. There is no gear in the AH, because there's almost no one testing it anymore.
Even as a dual-stanced ranger, imho, the HR is to far from going live. which was my earlier point. But, with so few players testing it now, what will we end up with? Will anyone actually want to play it?
And for the record, I'm 62 years old, retired, and spend almost 24/7 playing mmo's! I love playing games, they're a passion for me.
But to have all of my efforts ignored out of hand, that's down right annoying.
Go for the eyes, Boo!GO FOR THE EYES!!! (Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
Read through this thread alone and you'll see what warzog is saying. First when asking for more range orientation to the class we're jumped on saying it's a hybrid class so you can't play it as a strict archer. Now where it's understood that we aren't demanding use strictly in one manner or the other we're hearing it doesn't need more range orientation because you can already play it as a strict archer if you want. I don't see our criticism being taken seriously, rather we're seen as whinners that need pacifying.
Read through this thread alone and you'll see what warzog is saying. First when asking for more range orientation to the class we're jumped on saying it's a hybrid class so you can't play it as a strict archer. Now where it's understood that we aren't demanding use strictly in one manner or the other we're hearing it doesn't need more range orientation because you can already play it as a strict archer if you want. I don't see our criticism being taken seriously, rather we're seen as whinners that need pacifying.
Its hard to not see you as whiners because you obviously dont like this class play style. A playstyle is your personal opinion why are you trying to force one type of playstyle on this class to fit what you like. God forbid if some one came here crying that the class is not melee enough for them and they want the class to be more melee based people would then say go play TR This class is not TR and its not strictly Archer that's made blatantly obvious. The only problem again i will say the class has is skill scaling at will and encounter dmg problem. The class as a whole is fluid to some a train wreck to others some will like it others will hate it if you think TR is better hybrid go play it its there for you why wast your time posting in a thread unrelated to the feed back thread. About a particular playstyle that's this class is not designed to completely tackle with out gimping itself. With this said the class again atm is to high a skill cap and not enough reward thanks to its pitiful dmg output atm.
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
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Read through this thread alone and you'll see what warzog is saying. First when asking for more range orientation to the class we're jumped on saying it's a hybrid class so you can't play it as a strict archer. Now where it's understood that we aren't demanding use strictly in one manner or the other we're hearing it doesn't need more range orientation because you can already play it as a strict archer if you want. I don't see our criticism being taken seriously, rather we're seen as whinners that need pacifying.
Thats kind of what I'm seeing as well.
Everyone understands well this is a HUNTER Ranger. Thats not the issue, the issue is being forced into one playstyle out of the many that was available before nerf. You cant be a pure ranged ranger doing decent damage anymore. You cant do pure melee damage and do decent in the first place (due to alot of the melee feats and features bugged). The only viable option given post nerf is the hybrid style of play.
Which goes against the very motif of what the devs claim to want. To keep variety if playstyles. And by viable, I mean doing well enough, not super optimal build.
Some keep saying its not an Archer Ranger. WE GET THAT. That is not the point, or the basis of the discussion being held. Yes some people want a pure archer ranger. But thats only a few people. most of us that has played and tested the class understand this well.
What we're saying is the viability of variation in playstyles.
In perspective, this would be like nerfing all defense and sentinal oriented feats and abilities a GWF has. They can be defensive if the player choses to. If those are nerfed like crazy, sure they can still be defensive tank like, but who would really play that now since it wouldnt no longer be viable to actually use for those that want to play that style?
The style of combat HR has is already there. None of this was a problem BEFORE the nerfing. The only complaints for this class that was common was the early levels they were strong, and the inconsistant crtiticals of one skill. Most people were very fine with the class, some skills did needed some nerfing, but everyone said slight.
They took the slight, amplified it, and applied it to everything that made the class have its appeal. Thus the after effect narrowed the playstyles that were viable to the class. making only one viable. What other class has only ONE viable playstyle here?
TR have the executioner style, and also the Perma-Stealth style and more VIABLE playstyles. By the devs not making the Perma-stealth style still viable.
GWF have thier destroyer style, in various ways it can be played, but the most common most people know about. And the Regen Sentinal style.
and them saying themselves they dont to destroy creative styles of play themselves.
It makes no sense to have the HR so narrowly focused now. In addition, HR is a striker. Thats all they can do. They have very few CC. TR have more CC than a HR does. Most of thier damage comes from thier At Wills, every single one of thier ranged at wills had been cut down. Thier encounters consist of mostly AOE damage and utility. They cut down their AOE.
Every nerf has been applied to thier damage, which is what they are supposed to do. Thier ranged damage for that matter.
They are strikers, yet the skills that most of thier damage comes from has been cut down substantially. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Its no wonder the feedback blew up after that. And rightfully so. Alot of people tested the HR before hand, and they gave feedback to adjust it a little in all honesty. And they took a hatchet to the class.
Everyone understands well this is a HUNTER Ranger. Thats not the issue, the issue is being forced into one playstyle out of the many that was available before nerf. You cant be a pure ranged ranger doing decent damage anymore. You cant do pure melee damage and do decent in the first place (due to alot of the melee feats and features bugged). The only viable option given post nerf is the hybrid style of play.
Which goes against the very motif of what the devs claim to want. To keep variety if playstyles. And by viable, I mean doing well enough, not super optimal build.
Some keep saying its not an Archer Ranger. WE GET THAT. That is not the point, or the basis of the discussion being held. Yes some people want a pure archer ranger. But thats only a few people. most of us that has played and tested the class understand this well.
What we're saying is the viability of variation in playstyles.
In perspective, this would be like nerfing all defense and sentinal oriented feats and abilities a GWF has. They can be defensive if the player choses to. If those are nerfed like crazy, sure they can still be defensive tank like, but who would really play that now since it wouldnt no longer be viable to actually use for those that want to play that style?
The style of combat HR has is already there. None of this was a problem BEFORE the nerfing. The only complaints for this class that was common was the early levels they were strong, and the inconsistant crtiticals of one skill. Most people were very fine with the class, some skills did needed some nerfing, but everyone said slight.
They took the slight, amplified it, and applied it to everything that made the class have its appeal. Thus the after effect narrowed the playstyles that were viable to the class. making only one viable. What other class has only ONE viable playstyle here?
TR have the executioner style, and also the Perma-Stealth style and more VIABLE playstyles. By the devs not making the Perma-stealth style still viable.
GWF have thier destroyer style, in various ways it can be played, but the most common most people know about. And the Regen Sentinal style.
and them saying themselves they dont to destroy creative styles of play themselves.
It makes no sense to have the HR so narrowly focused now. In addition, HR is a striker. Thats all they can do. They have very few CC. TR have more CC than a HR does. Most of thier damage comes from thier At Wills, every single one of thier ranged at wills had been cut down. Thier encounters consist of mostly AOE damage and utility. They cut down their AOE.
Every nerf has been applied to thier damage, which is what they are supposed to do. Thier ranged damage for that matter.
They are strikers, yet the skills that most of thier damage comes from has been cut down substantially. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Its no wonder the feedback blew up after that. And rightfully so. Alot of people tested the HR before hand, and they gave feedback to adjust it a little in all honesty. And they took a hatchet to the class.
The problem is their ranged dps was so high that why would you even bother with melee/hybrid mode or any other playstyle for that matter. why would you even go down the melee mode tree cuas until the nerf thats is were they lacked at and i didn't see a soul crying about it Any way why bother when you can kill from 32 yards away. The problem now is that their melee is to weak now and ranged dps even weaker. Both need to find that harmony so that class can be played as designed.
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
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volt it's said you don't HAVE to use TAB but should to use the full potential. HR is a hybrid range/melee so you don't NEED a pet. It's a single target striker. Sure I can remain using only one style of combat but only if I have a companion taking aggro for me otherwise I do need to use TAB to survive making both claims not true unless I ignore one of them. Single target striker is a joke with the current nerf to damage, single target yes. Don't tell me the class is something it's not when we're pointing out where the class is lacking. Why am I continuing to gripe here? Because my criticism was obviously to loud on the feedback thread and got booted here.
The problem is their ranged dps was so high that why would you even bother with melee mode or any other playstyle for that matter. why would you even go down the melee mode tree cuas until the nerf thats is were they lacked at and i didn't see a soul crying about it Any way why bother when you can kill from 32 yards away. The problem now is that their melee is to weak now and ranged dps even weaker. Both need to find that harmony so that class can be played as designed.
Thier highest damage at will - Aimed Shot is interruptable by the slightest breeze.
Thier second highest damage at will - Split Shot - takes time to fully charge, usually by the time your finished the first, or halfway charging the second, your in melee range.
Also in addition, A very large portion of melee oriented feats are bugged. the ones that increase melee damage, instead of increasing, makes the damage the actual percentage it was supposed to increase it by.
Yes thier melee skills are slightly weaker. (the melee versions of the encounter skills were stronger though) and it does need a buff. But it makes little since to reduce the range skills so low to the weak melee skills now.
Alot of people cant test the melee skills extensively due to the bugged feats and features for melee. The melee versions of encounters have more CC than the encounters as addition to hitting harder than the ranged versions, and the melee attacks hit faster.
using your at wills in a longer span of time, will out damage your rapid shot, due to it being a delay after the 3rd shot and adding in the time taken to try to keep your distance from your foe. The at wills hit harder at range. but the melees hit faster and more consistantly, the nerf they did to rapid shot, instead should had been reverse for Rapid Strike.
volt it's said you don't HAVE to use TAB but should to use the full potential. HR is a hybrid range/melee so you don't NEED a pet. It's a single target striker. Sure I can remain using only one style of combat but only if I have a companion taking aggro for me otherwise I do need to use TAB to survive making both claims not true unless I ignore one of them. Single target striker is a joke with the current nerf to damage, single target yes. Don't tell me the class is something it's not when we're pointing out where the class is lacking. Why am I continuing to gripe here? Because my criticism was obviously to loud on the feedback thread and got booted here.
HR isnt just a single target striker, its a multi target as well. Even says so in the class trailer.
And yet the damage of that was reduced greatly. The skills that grant it, dont even do burst damage, its sustained damage.
volt it's said you don't HAVE to use TAB but should to use the full potential. HR is a hybrid range/melee so you don't NEED a pet. It's a single target striker. Sure I can remain using only one style of combat but only if I have a companion taking aggro for me otherwise I do need to use TAB to survive making both claims not true unless I ignore one of them. Single target striker is a joke with the current nerf to damage, single target yes. Don't tell me the class is something it's not when we're pointing out where the class is lacking. Why am I continuing to gripe here? Because my criticism was obviously to loud on the feedback thread and got booted here.
The thread was divided cause multiple people started cluttering it up with stuff thats shouldn't be considered feedback what you or anyone else thinks of the overall combat style of the class is a personal opinion some love the combat others hate it you obviously dont like it and thats fine but dont say it needs changing because you dislike how it plays.
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
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Obviously some still think because I'm voicing an opinion about where the so-called hybrid combat style is lacking that I'm attempting to push my preferred style of play on the class, I'm not. And it's exactly because of this that I continue over and over to state my opinion, so much so that I have to leave the forums so I don't violate the rules and start flaming. I guess it's back to preview to test the Whisperknife or back to Live...
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slambitMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 282Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
It was posted back in beta by a mod that this ranger would not be an archery ranger, why people ignored it then and the times it was quoted I don't know, but it was posted, not liking it is another thing.
I personally would love if it was possible to stick to ranged only melee only or some kind of buffing middle, depending on what trees you put points into, but i known since that post, that wasnt to be, not for this ranger, who knows what classes they might have in store for us later
It was posted back in beta by a mod that this ranger would not be an archery ranger, why people ignored it then and the times it was quoted I don't know, but it was posted, not liking it is another thing.
I personally would love if it was possible to stick to ranged only melee only or some kind of buffing middle, depending on what trees you put points into, but i known since that post, that wasnt to be, not for this ranger, who knows what classes they might have in store for us later
Then don't call it a hybrid if all you're doing is building a melee with long range options.
Then don't call it a hybrid if all you're doing is building a melee with long range options.
The same logic could also be used pre nerf as it was just a ranged class with melee options. If you not calling its hyrbid just call it its own unique style of play sence by your book it doesn't fit the hybrid style it also doesn't fit the melee/ranged styles also. Just call it HR style and get over it.
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
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slambitMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 282Bounty Hunter
Why is the class played strictly as an archer for the first 10 levels if range is an added benefit? Why is the bow the primary weapon? Any right handed archer carries the bow in his left (off) hand leaving room in the right (primary) for any type of melee weapon.
I never claimed that HR was hybrid pre nerf, I'm being fed the line that it is whenever I point out the short comings in a hybrid build.
"This class could use a little more range orientation."
"No it doesn't, it's a hybrid so you can't play it as a strictly archer anyway."
"This class still needs a little more range orientation to be a viable hybrid."
"No it doesn't, you can already play it strictly as an archer."
and now it's
"No it doesn't, range is just an added benefit."
And this comes even though official presentations show a more vital take on the range option.
Sounds like some people are dead set on making sure this remains a melee focused game.
I don't play melee. I play RANGED. I should NOT be forced to use both. Ranger primary is ranged not melee hence the name Ranger
As for the Hunter part. Even hunters have to shoot things at distance.
Actually, that's not true. The term, Ranger, was coined during the middle ages to refer to those designated to 'range', or patrol the king's lands. It is synonymous with the terms Wardens and Borders.
The term was later made famous in the American colonies by companies of Rangers patrolling the woodlands to fight the French and Indians.
The D&D archetype for Rangers was derived from Tolkien's Rangers
I was watching a dvd when something kinda funny struck me:
Considering all of the complaints about the HR, and it's inability to choose between ranged, or melee, or dual stance playstyles.
Can you imagine what it's going to be like when it goes live?
In these forums we've had what? a few dozen people posting?
Imagine what all the folks on the live shard, who've all played rangers in other mmo's will say about the HR.
I hope the fans of the dual-stance playstyle will be ready...
I'll be in the background ROTFLMAO!
Go for the eyes, Boo!GO FOR THE EYES!!! (Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
Comments
No offence, but if i remember correctly even the ranger - preview trailer stated that the class is a mix/hybrid. I apologize in advance if i'm wrong which i may be, since i cannot find the trailer on youtube anymore.
I believe you're correct but as you already quoted me, the current build is not aimed at a hybrid but mainly melee focused by preventing actually allowing effective use of both styles of combat. Even a 70-30% split is not truly attainable in solo play unless the HR keeps pre nerf and then it's ranged primary.
watch neverwinter cinematic, tr can parry and blink, mage uses shortsword, cleric can destroy undead, gwf can throw weapons and tr can pick up 1handed sword that works as 2handed for her size
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZq8B2xYeg
Sorry, but that's not gameplay footage. A cgi trailer cannot be taken as actual content. The one i was referring to, had gameplay footage. There were gameplay footages for every class pre-launch btw, clearly showing that TR cannot blink and what each class is capable of doing, etc. ^^
Sorry pal.
From Cryptic's own preview page of the HR stating very clearly that it is an either/or/both hybrid. Wording can be tricky but demanding a hybrid build would've changed "HR can switch" to "HR switches" in the 2nd sentence. But that's getting picky and beyond the point now. I believe we all understand that HR is to be a hybrid class, it's just nothing near that yet.
Sorry, that was from Perfect World's page (maybe one and the same?)
You don't have to switch at all. At no point do you HAVE to go to melee. You can, with careful use of pots and your avoidance, dodging and pulling mobs slowly and appropriately, stay alive doing only melee or only ranged. The same holds true for all tabbed abilities in every class (minus CW, which doesn't really have a tab ability anyhow). And it holds true for HR.
BUT: you are penalizing your potential in all classes by doing so. Sure, you can face tank things as a GF and never block. But you honestly think you won't have to pot, or at least, take long breaks in between fights to get healed by your companion?
And stealth is NOT a requirement for a solo TR. But again, long breaks, careful play, etc.
This just hasn't changed for HR. My opinion is the damage is a little low right now, but not that the whole class is FORCED to by hybrid. Only that, like four of the five other classes, that tab ability isn't an 'either/or' option, it's a fundamental part of the class that the devs have used to balance the class to be effective.
You're abilities have been leveled and scaled as a GWF with the thought that you WILL be using unstoppable. Those missions and playtestings with a GF are built on the assumption that they WILL be using block. TR and stealth is obviously in mine on mission layout, due to mob placement and ai reaction. And that DC is a force multiplyer with his tab ability. All in all, they are designing the classes to use their tab functions, not to avoid them.
We CAN avoid them. But by doing so, we limit ourselves artificially.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
. . . . . I strongly suggest to test out builds and talk to those successfully playing their ranger as mostly ranged.
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As I posted earlier, it's not impossible to balance the HR, merely that Cryptic has opted for a very difficult way to go about it. HR MAY very well be survivable only using one form of combat or the other by the time it goes live, I just don't see that currently being the case. By the looks of Zebular's post I might be incorrect in this assumption and I'm just a crappy player.
Most of my leveling with my HR was done pre nerf so I'm not certain how difficult it is to do so now at the lower levels but the amount of potions needed the last few levels far out weighs the need I had during the entire leveling of my TR on live in which I never once used Stealth. Similar styles of play (hit-and-run, rogue melee/ranger ranged) both with a Cleric Disciple although the HR's was better equipped.
Of all of the classes in Neverwinter, the HR is the only one I've played that I can't get to level 30 without a single death.
Geeze, Who am I kidding? I couldn't even get one to level 10 without a single death.
Which, if nothing else, should tell you how far from ready to go live, it is.
(Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
I died 1 time leveling up to 60. On the last boss of Hotenow (fire giant guy). That is not counting a few deaths by "Marauder's Escape" when I "escaped" right off a cliff, lol. I find the HR to be much easier to keep alive than my GF. The GF is tough, but he is not mobile. The HR is almost tough AND mobile. I have not had this much fun leveling a toon since my favorite toon in City of Heroes.
So it's ready to go live? Great!
(Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
I loved my mastermind villain, personally. One of my top 3 favorite characters. Hassad the Assassin from CoV, then Na'Djin the everything from SWG (pre-cu, pre-NGE to game close), and finally Ruze from EvE online.
On topic: Warzog seems to be having issues. This may be something out of his personal control, or it may be a client glitch, or any number of things. Most 'elite' gamers like myself hate to admit that we may not be the best at something, but it's possible Warzog simply doesn't sync well with HR.
I know that my experiences right now aren't making me love the class. I know I'm good at how I play, but one thing I love with this game is that each class IS very different and requires a different level of thinking. You can fudge some over the borders and play them all on a baseline, but you'll never compare to those who actually sync with the class' design.
I see this every day with my GWF. I sync. Many others do not.
But from his viewpoints, I doubt Warzog is the type of player who would feel or see himself as not being good at a class. No insults intended at all. It simply sounds as if he feels that he can do it all, and if he can't, then something is wrong with the class itself, not him.
Which, to be fair, may actually be true. Or it may be ego and bias and unhelpful to giving feedback on the class. I can't be the judge of that, though. I can only judge myself and my opinions.
My opinion on HR right now? It's not how I like to play, and when I do make my character, he'll probably be leveled through leadership and then equipped through guild runs like many of my alts. I had hopes he'd become my main (I'm an archer and bowhunter in real life, and love hunting, as well as the character archetype that usually is associated with hunters and rangers in other games).
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
On page 34 of the feedback thread for the HR, I gave a critique of the powers I had access to.
On page 39 of the feedback thread for the HR, I did a comparison of the HR's combat abilities prior to, and post patch. I explained the effects of trying to play the HR as a melee only, ranged only, and as a dual-stanced ranger. I gave my opinion of the class, gave suggestions for improvements, and noted where I felt no improvement was needed.
I then was jumped on by players and moderators for my suggestions. I was told in no uncertain terms, in this thread, that the HR will not be playable as a dual-wield, or as a ranged only, but only as a dual-stanced ranger.
From the start, I was ghung ho to test the HR. I must have made 20-30 of them trying every combination of races, abilities, and powers.
I restarted after the patches, and kept on testing. I tried boosting morale, only to get jumped on, and slapped down.
If you've been playing the HR lately, almost every zone is empty, or near empty. There is no gear in the AH, because there's almost no one testing it anymore.
Even as a dual-stanced ranger, imho, the HR is to far from going live. which was my earlier point. But, with so few players testing it now, what will we end up with? Will anyone actually want to play it?
And for the record, I'm 62 years old, retired, and spend almost 24/7 playing mmo's! I love playing games, they're a passion for me.
But to have all of my efforts ignored out of hand, that's down right annoying.
(Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thats kind of what I'm seeing as well.
Everyone understands well this is a HUNTER Ranger. Thats not the issue, the issue is being forced into one playstyle out of the many that was available before nerf. You cant be a pure ranged ranger doing decent damage anymore. You cant do pure melee damage and do decent in the first place (due to alot of the melee feats and features bugged). The only viable option given post nerf is the hybrid style of play.
Which goes against the very motif of what the devs claim to want. To keep variety if playstyles. And by viable, I mean doing well enough, not super optimal build.
Some keep saying its not an Archer Ranger. WE GET THAT. That is not the point, or the basis of the discussion being held. Yes some people want a pure archer ranger. But thats only a few people. most of us that has played and tested the class understand this well.
What we're saying is the viability of variation in playstyles.
In perspective, this would be like nerfing all defense and sentinal oriented feats and abilities a GWF has. They can be defensive if the player choses to. If those are nerfed like crazy, sure they can still be defensive tank like, but who would really play that now since it wouldnt no longer be viable to actually use for those that want to play that style?
The style of combat HR has is already there. None of this was a problem BEFORE the nerfing. The only complaints for this class that was common was the early levels they were strong, and the inconsistant crtiticals of one skill. Most people were very fine with the class, some skills did needed some nerfing, but everyone said slight.
They took the slight, amplified it, and applied it to everything that made the class have its appeal. Thus the after effect narrowed the playstyles that were viable to the class. making only one viable. What other class has only ONE viable playstyle here?
TR have the executioner style, and also the Perma-Stealth style and more VIABLE playstyles. By the devs not making the Perma-stealth style still viable.
GWF have thier destroyer style, in various ways it can be played, but the most common most people know about. And the Regen Sentinal style.
and them saying themselves they dont to destroy creative styles of play themselves.
It makes no sense to have the HR so narrowly focused now. In addition, HR is a striker. Thats all they can do. They have very few CC. TR have more CC than a HR does. Most of thier damage comes from thier At Wills, every single one of thier ranged at wills had been cut down. Thier encounters consist of mostly AOE damage and utility. They cut down their AOE.
Every nerf has been applied to thier damage, which is what they are supposed to do. Thier ranged damage for that matter.
They are strikers, yet the skills that most of thier damage comes from has been cut down substantially. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Its no wonder the feedback blew up after that. And rightfully so. Alot of people tested the HR before hand, and they gave feedback to adjust it a little in all honesty. And they took a hatchet to the class.
The problem is their ranged dps was so high that why would you even bother with melee/hybrid mode or any other playstyle for that matter. why would you even go down the melee mode tree cuas until the nerf thats is were they lacked at and i didn't see a soul crying about it Any way why bother when you can kill from 32 yards away. The problem now is that their melee is to weak now and ranged dps even weaker. Both need to find that harmony so that class can be played as designed.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thier highest damage at will - Aimed Shot is interruptable by the slightest breeze.
Thier second highest damage at will - Split Shot - takes time to fully charge, usually by the time your finished the first, or halfway charging the second, your in melee range.
Also in addition, A very large portion of melee oriented feats are bugged. the ones that increase melee damage, instead of increasing, makes the damage the actual percentage it was supposed to increase it by.
Yes thier melee skills are slightly weaker. (the melee versions of the encounter skills were stronger though) and it does need a buff. But it makes little since to reduce the range skills so low to the weak melee skills now.
Alot of people cant test the melee skills extensively due to the bugged feats and features for melee. The melee versions of encounters have more CC than the encounters as addition to hitting harder than the ranged versions, and the melee attacks hit faster.
using your at wills in a longer span of time, will out damage your rapid shot, due to it being a delay after the 3rd shot and adding in the time taken to try to keep your distance from your foe. The at wills hit harder at range. but the melees hit faster and more consistantly, the nerf they did to rapid shot, instead should had been reverse for Rapid Strike.
HR isnt just a single target striker, its a multi target as well. Even says so in the class trailer.
And yet the damage of that was reduced greatly. The skills that grant it, dont even do burst damage, its sustained damage.
The thread was divided cause multiple people started cluttering it up with stuff thats shouldn't be considered feedback what you or anyone else thinks of the overall combat style of the class is a personal opinion some love the combat others hate it you obviously dont like it and thats fine but dont say it needs changing because you dislike how it plays.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I personally would love if it was possible to stick to ranged only melee only or some kind of buffing middle, depending on what trees you put points into, but i known since that post, that wasnt to be, not for this ranger, who knows what classes they might have in store for us later
Then don't call it a hybrid if all you're doing is building a melee with long range options.
The same logic could also be used pre nerf as it was just a ranged class with melee options. If you not calling its hyrbid just call it its own unique style of play sence by your book it doesn't fit the hybrid style it also doesn't fit the melee/ranged styles also. Just call it HR style and get over it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yeah, um you need more coffee.
I never claimed that HR was hybrid pre nerf, I'm being fed the line that it is whenever I point out the short comings in a hybrid build.
"No it doesn't, it's a hybrid so you can't play it as a strictly archer anyway."
"This class still needs a little more range orientation to be a viable hybrid."
"No it doesn't, you can already play it strictly as an archer."
and now it's
"No it doesn't, range is just an added benefit."
And this comes even though official presentations show a more vital take on the range option.
Sounds like some people are dead set on making sure this remains a melee focused game.
Actually, that's not true. The term, Ranger, was coined during the middle ages to refer to those designated to 'range', or patrol the king's lands. It is synonymous with the terms Wardens and Borders.
The term was later made famous in the American colonies by companies of Rangers patrolling the woodlands to fight the French and Indians.
The D&D archetype for Rangers was derived from Tolkien's Rangers
Considering all of the complaints about the HR, and it's inability to choose between ranged, or melee, or dual stance playstyles.
Can you imagine what it's going to be like when it goes live?
In these forums we've had what? a few dozen people posting?
Imagine what all the folks on the live shard, who've all played rangers in other mmo's will say about the HR.
I hope the fans of the dual-stance playstyle will be ready...
I'll be in the background ROTFLMAO!
(Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)