This is because we removed the compounding of the older system. Up to rank 4/5, you could easily find 4 of the matching lower rank gems to rank it up. After that point, Rank 6+ gems don't really drop in game, so you couldn't just "get" 4 Rank 7 gems to make a Rank 8. You had to get 4 Rank 4s to make a Rank 5. Then do that 3 more times to have 4 Rank 5s so you could make 1 Rank 6. Then do THAT whole process 3 more times so you could have 4 Rank 6s.
And each one of those steps came with an "Upgrade" step where you had a chance to fail - now you just have one Upgrade step, and just one chance to fail. (Well, 2 because one of the Catalysts for higher ranks of Enchants is a second, matching Enchantment. Now you can just throw in Rank 4s instead of needing to match them and rank them up, repeatedly, to be able to get them to Rank 7. All of those dozens of Upgrade steps and chances for failure have been removed.
While the old system made it feel like "I always need 4 Enchants" the reality was that you needed many, many more to be able to get to those 4 Enchants. This was simpler, but the new system takes far fewer total gems to be able to get to max rank, while also removing most of the chances of failure.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Perhaps i havnt spent enough time to understand the capabilities on the new system. Are you saying i can take a R4, dump hundreds of runes/enchants into it, upgrade once and could have a R7? If not then how is the new system any different in terms of cost/chances of loss than live? Still appears to be compounding without the transparency of cost.
On live people didnt lose R6+ via the chance of loss as they used wards. Which are a fraction of the cost of i.e a R7 Dark.
What this appears to be is building a previously percieved, non existant loss factor to be a real unavoidable loss factor into the cost.
30% chance using preservation wards for R7 combine, could take 1-10 wards depending on your luck (4k-40k cost) VS 2 extra R7's 80k-320k depending on the type and still needing the wards.
I'm not trying to be difficult but i dont understand the reasoning.
**Edit: Thinking on this more... This appears to be based on a "new" cost to make vs those already made in the old system. This could be why it doesnt sit well with people as all they have to compare against is what they have built thus far and that appears to be soon devalued in a new system.
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Perhaps i havnt spent enough time to understand the capabilities on the new system. Are you saying i can take a R4, dump hundreds of runes/enchants into it, upgrade once and could have a R7? If not then how is the new system any different in terms of cost/chances of loss than live? Still appears to be compounding without the transparency of cost.
What you do is take 1 r4, dump runes/enchants into it until it hits the refinement points need to go to rank 5. At that point you use the catalyst (and wards to protect the catalyst in the same you did before with enchantments) and rank it up to 6. If it succeeds you lose the catalyst and pay the AD cost. If you fail (and don't have a preservation ward to protect the catalyst) you lose the catalyst, don't pay AD, and the enchantment doesn't rank up.
So assuming you succeed, you now have a rank 5 enchantment which you can dump any level/type enchantment/rune into until you hit the refinement cap. Rank it up with a new catalyst and you have a rank 6, and then you can do it over to get a rank 7.
In the process, you will use less wards and make use of junk enchantments/runes you wouldn't have before, but will have to pay an AD cost and have to gather catalysts as well.
Yep it is how i thought. This way essentially 4 older combines are removed. i.e. need 1 instead of 4 then a final.
But the loss was still mitigated using wards. i.e. Lose several wards vs lose several enchantments.
This still doesnt seem to justify the +50% extra enchantments needed for a reduction in wards lost. On the lower demanded/cost enchants like Silvery/Azure this wont be as bad but for Dark i'd rather lose extra wards than be charged extra enchantments.
Additionally, should you decide to transition this system to live...I would advise you strongly consider making a youtube video tutorial(narrated and subtitled) explaining it. Not as a "check it out on the forums" thing either since everyone know the forums is only frequented by at best a small fraction of the playerbase. Make it a mandatory popup, both on the launcher, the home screen and when someone opens the enchantment window for the first time after it's implemented.
Interesting, can you elaborate on what people are or aren't doing in the current system? For me at least, the only frustration in the current system is the random chance aspect. The only part of the system I wasn't using was unslotting, primarly related to AD cost, see below.
Also interesting. Whilst arguably true, I was quite happy with this system simply because it was avoidable. If the cost to unslot was higher than I was prepared to pay (I never unslotted) I could either, not bother slotting an item if I didn't want to lose the enchant or discard it with the item. Having an upfront cost, even if cheaper, is no longer avoidable without avoiding the entire enchant system. It shifts forward the participation decision point.
I think I must play very differently to a lot of people.
No, I do not think you are different. I too am curious about this data. I assume what they mean is they were not receiving the anticipated ad from people unsloting their gear. I have never unslotted a piece of gear, and do not think I ever would. I would either destroy what is in a slot, grind a second piece of the same gear to put something new in the slot (keeping the old gear to swap into) or simply sell the gear with the enchant in a slot.
This is now forcing people to 'engage the current system' and incur the costs they were avoiding... but not likely. My guess is people will not use this system to avoid the costs.
I think it may be possible that the data indicates that people often toss the enchants. Again, I think this is due to the space requirements/limitations involved in using the current enchant system. I have several friends that tell me they toss enchants because they will never be able to get them to the level they need, but rather are saving ad to get the enchant off the ah.
The ad costs will kill the casual players desire to engage the system.
So I wanted to chime in to talk about a few of the specific issues being brought up.
First, I wanted to say that this is on the Preview shard specifically so that we can get lots of feedback, improve the system, and make sure it's hitting all of our goals. Some players have commented that the current system on Live is "fine" but we disagree - our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it. If the system was performing well and making everyone happy, we would not have invested all of the time and effort into improving it that we have. We're still looking at and discussing the system constantly, and one of the main areas of discussion is what it takes to Upgrade an item - meaning the AD Cost, Catalysts and Wards part of the system.
Second, we want to say "oops" for not having the Catalysts in the AD store when it went up to Preview. They will be in the build that should be going up tomorrow. The intent is that enough of these will be dropping in the world (from skill nodes and bosses, mostly) that you won't need or want to buy them from the AD store, but we want to have the option there to ensure that you'll always have access to them.
Next, I wanted to talk about bag space. One of the main goals of the new system is to reduce the bag space requirements of engaging in the Refining system. We don't think there will be a reason to carry around a bag full of Enchants/Runestones anymore - you'll have the ones you want slotted in your gear and companions, and you'll use extra ones as you get them to Refine your slotted Enchants. You won't have a full set of all 9 of the basic Enchants/Runes at multiple ranks, as there is no need to try to stack them up to smash them any longer.
Instead, you'll have a handful of Catalyst items in your bag. There are 4 of them for Enchants/Runestones, you will probably only be carrying 1 or 2 of them around at a time, unless you happen to have slotted Enchants ranging from ranks 1-10 in your gear. Most people will have the majority of their slotted Enchants around the same rank, meaning you'll need a handful of the Catalysts that make sense for you current and of Refinement progression. I know that for my character on Live, I have something like 16-20 slots taken up with Enchants and Runestones at pretty much any time. On our test servers, I don't have Enchants or Runestones in my bags at all any more.
Last comment for now - we put the AD cost on Upgrading the items because we removed the (much larger) AD cost required for Unslotting them. We still want AD to play a part in the Refinement/Enchantment process, but it was a big barrier to using the system when slotting an Enchantment was such a huge commitment due to the cost of removing it. We'd rather have smaller, up front costs for Upgrading than the current large recurring costs whenever you get a new item. Having to think "if I start using this sweet new weapon I got, I have to unslot my Enchant, ugh" was a situation we were really not happy with.
Again, we're still looking very closely at this system, so keep posting your feedback!
thanks for explaining this. it will take some getting used to after the old (current) system.
as for the AD costs involved, it should be stated that in the current system, it's nothing to drop a r5 enchant over another one and therefore not spend AD at all to remove enchants. there are also people that will not slot gear until they have what they want... be it a r7 or higher. which again eliminates the spending of AD to remove enchants.
so while you've removed the AD cost to remove enchants and are moving it to the refining of enchants... how is that justified when there are people that may not spend any AD in their enchant slotting processes?
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
Some players have commented that the current system on Live is "fine" but we disagree - our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it. If the system was performing well and making everyone happy, we would not have invested all of the time and effort into improving it that we have.
How is it frustrating to click 4 and select fuse? I don't get where the frustration lies. What's frustrating is the big jump in failure rates and that's why I personally don't "engage in the current system" past rank 6 enchantments.
If you want to improve the system and make it less frustrating then either remove or lower the failure chances. Leave the top tier 1% or whatever but look into the earlier ones easier to make.
Second, we want to say "oops" for not having the Catalysts in the AD store when it went up to Preview. They will be in the build that should be going up tomorrow. The intent is that enough of these will be dropping in the world (from skill nodes and bosses, mostly) that you won't need or want to buy them from the AD store, but we want to have the option there to ensure that you'll always have access to them.
So basically like Identify Scrolls? If so I find that reasonable. Hopefully they wont be priced crazy for the higher ones since you apparently are building the AD costs into the enchantment system upfront.
Last comment for now - we put the AD cost on Upgrading the items because we removed the (much larger) AD cost required for Unslotting them. We still want AD to play a part in the Refinement/Enchantment process, but it was a big barrier to using the system when slotting an Enchantment was such a huge commitment due to the cost of removing it. We'd rather have smaller, up front costs for Upgrading than the current large recurring costs whenever you get a new item. Having to think "if I start using this sweet new weapon I got, I have to unslot my Enchant, ugh" was a situation we were really not happy with.
Did anybody actually ever use the unslotting system for anything below level 6 enchants? , I know I never did and nobody in my guild and nobody any of us know ever did , most people I know just overwrote unwanted enchantments so it seems that some people are being hit with an expense they never had before ..
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khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
edited October 2013
From what I am reading here, I like this system and seems easy to use, and it would be great if I could test it myself, but for some reason I can't launch the game on the Preview Shard. What I don't like is that now we have a mandatory fee instead of an optional one, though it's smaller. What exactly are the fees for each rank, by the way? If the fees are too high, any player that understand anything about anything in this game will not use any enchantment of Rank 5 or higher on anything lower than T2 gear. This may cause some problems when someone trier to move from T1 Dungeons to T2 Dungeons because they may not be welcomed in parties for the reason that they have a low gear score. Please keep the fees accessible for lower rank refineries (5,6,7). If the fees are to high people will refine Enchantment as little as possible and it won't be too much of a AD sick, just like it is now. The system is interesting, please don't mess it up by setting ridiculous fees.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
I understand the reason for adding another AD sink after taking out the cost for unslotting, but as it has been said before, It doesn't look like people actually unslottet gems that often.
I've run a lot of Dungeons with people who simply had ether no enchantments or very high tier enchantments in their gear. People preferred to wait until they had collected and fused a T7-T10 enchantment before slotting it in, because of the freakishly high cost for unslotting them. It's something players do rarely, if at all.
But fusing Gems I pretty much do every day, not only those I intent to slot in, but also the T3 gems I find to get T5.T6 T7 etc. It already is pretty much an Ad sink, since I have to buy tons of wards on the later levels to not loose too many high level gems, and one Ward a week from Celestial Coins just doesn't cut it.
I'm willing to occasionally invest real money into things like inventory space, special mounts or similar Items, but I'm not willing to make daily payments in order to play a f2p game, so I always used my AD for Wards and I'm pretty sure others do as well.
Point is, you are taking a small AD sink most people avoided out (Though avoiding it likely contributed to why a lot of people shunned the system) and add in a huge AD sink people are unable to avoid in.
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People weren't using it because it's actually quite time consuming(in this day and age, time is worth a lot) to farm all the enchants you need to fuse an R8 or higher. It was often simpler and quicker for many players to simply farm T2s for items to sell for AD, then exchange the AD for enchants from the people who had already put the effort into fusing the higher level enchants.
I strongly suspect that even if this system is implemented, people will still farm T2->acquire AD->buy high level enchants and maybe...maybe fuse the R8-9 themselves.
What people were not doing was looking at the fusing method and thinking, "I need four of these rank X enchants to fuse to next rank...maybe use a ward if the success % is low? Herpderp...too confusing, accidentally stuck finger in coffee grinder".
Did anybody actually ever use the unslotting system for anything below level 6 enchants? , I know I never did and nobody in my guild and nobody any of us know ever did , most people I know just overwrote unwanted enchantments so it seems that some people are being hit with an expense they never had before ..
And another person who is making sense.
No one cared to unslot the runes/enchantments because of the high cost. So removing the Ad from that is pointless as players only slotted low level runes that were easily discarded and/or over-slotted them with better ranks, without the AD cost!
Instead now you have ceated an AD sink/money making scheme to make players pay for something that is more readily done. Now where you previously had no AD being used (fusing), you now have created your Ad sink where many players refine their stones to higher ranking causing them to lose out on AD a whole lot faster. Of course you just throw in a smoke screen trying/hoping to make it look like it's a better method, when in fact it is not.
Gold is easily gotten, whereas AD isn't. Yes there are ways to get AD, but it takes time vs. gold you can easily get 15+ gold in a day.
Again the current method of fusing is much better than this new scheme of refining stones that charges AD. Yes I frequently fuse runes and enchants, and with the new refining scheme, i will become broke and take forever to save up AD.
All you are doing with the AD costs, is steering players towards gold/ad spammers making you lose out on more potential customers.
Feedback: I liked the fact that I could take enchantments I don't need and use them to progress the enchantments I do use, but when the AD cost creeped in and then you've added yet another resource into the mix... well that soured the whole deal and now I want even less to do with your enchantments.
The old system meant I stopped trying to "craft" enchantments after they got to R5/6 because of the AD cost. Were I to start a new character, lets say a Ranger for example, I would now have to use AD (which undoubtedly PWE is hoping I'd be buying with $$$->ZEN->AD) just to get it to R5/6 enchantments.
Under these conditions, I'd rather have to pay $20 to unlock the Ranger class forever rather than be forced to pay AD for every enchantment I need to progress, especially since AD cost rises with each enchantment-level.
____________________________________________
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Bug: Refinement UI If go to refine an enchantment that is already slotted in equipment, and the enchantment window is already open, the listed result won't update. Screenshot
Bug: Refinement UI If you slot a artifact into another artifact to use to refine and then change what you want to refine to an enchantment/runestone the artifact won't remove itself from the list of things to be refined. If you try to refine with nothing else in refining slots, nothing happens but if one of the other refining slots is filled with something that is valid for refinement, you lose the artifact (and gain no refining points in the process) Screenshot with Artifact ready to be refine Screenshot with enchantment ready to be refined trying to use artifact
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callofkutuluMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 56Arc User
Also interesting. Whilst arguably true, I was quite happy with this system simply because it was avoidable. If the cost to unslot was higher than I was prepared to pay (I never unslotted) I could either, not bother slotting an item if I didn't want to lose the enchant or discard it with the item. Having an upfront cost, even if cheaper, is no longer avoidable without avoiding the entire enchant system. It shifts forward the participation decision point.
I think I must play very differently to a lot of people.
This x100... I think a lot of people were playing this way. I totally avoided the removal cost by not doing it. You could place new enchants on top of old ones. This new system says just don't use the enchanting system at all and forget about the high level enchants.
Heres my feedback I posted in a discussion thread on this system as a whole:
I agree. I really do not like this new system. Not only do you require astral diamonds, but you also need a catalyst now.
I dont see how they saw this new system nessecary. I do see what they are trying to do with this new system, but it needs some adaptions.
Before you just needed 4 of the same kind of enchant of the same type to fuse with a chance to fail (presevation wards prevented 1 from being lost, and coal. ward garrenteed a success). To upgrade higher 4 of that rank are needed. It took longer but it worked. And you only used astral diamonds to take them out.
This new system puts 3 barriers up now. Astral diamonds, catalysts and gold.And it also makes it harder for someone who decides they want to switch enchants. They have to take a whole new enchant and go through the long haul and astral diamonds, gold and catalysts to rank that one up.
I'm going to look into it more, but as it is now, its not seeming that inviting. And only seems to make its feature more complicated to newer players.
And to chime in on what it was said earlier in the thread:
This puts a very huge barrier on newer characters. Where you didnt have to worry about extracting enchantments if you didnt want to. But you can fuse enchantments at any level, even on a fresh character. Now in the new system, you cant do that, for it requires AD just to simply fuse enchantments. This new system is borderline hostile in nature. And many new players will simply try to avoid it altogether. Im testing this new system under two perspectives, as a veteran player and in the eyes of a new player and both perspectives dont seem to outweigh the pro's than the cons.
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
This x100... I think a lot of people were playing this way. I totally avoided the removal cost by not doing it. You could place new enchants on top of old ones. This new system says just don't use the enchanting system at all and forget about the high level enchants.
This sort of answers the question of why the change. A lot of people weren't unslotting enchantments, thus not spending the AD that the developers thought they would. With the new "improved" system it's simply moved to the other end of the equation where people don't really have the ability to not pay it.
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dalang3dMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited November 2013
ex : i have 6 dark rank 4, i refine 1 of them using right click > refine, but after i refine the item is automaticaly merged with another, so i canot see where dark rank 4 that have been refined,,, the bug is just not on short buton only, but automaticaly merged with each other gem after refinement is bug Right?,,, so, what solution for now?
and yeah i disagre with catalyst ingredient and AD cost for upgrade.... and i think with just ward is so expensive [need 5 coalward(=500k AD on AH or 5000zen on Zen Market) for make normal enchantment from shard, normal to great =... coalward?, great to perfect=... coalward]
The new stone refine is good, in this way the gold seller/farmer/glithcer/bugger/duper can't benefit form the stone. Now, they have to find catalyst and they have to use AD for refine ^^ This is a nice move to try stop the illegal player. There no prob whit the ench system, just need to use more brain now.
Last comment for now - we put the AD cost on Upgrading the items because we removed the (much larger) AD cost required for Unslotting them. We still want AD to play a part in the Refinement/Enchantment process, bla bla bla
I've never spent any AD on removing enchantment. Ever. I simply didn't slot them till I get good item. Now, I'm forced to waste my gold AND my AD BOTH while using new system. No, just no. Leave the unslotting cost as it is, and I just won't use it as I did before.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
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dalang3dMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
After reading what the dev said I can understand the reasoning alittle better. One idea to make things simpler but still use the new system is to get rid of catalyst altogether.
Example: To upgrade a rank 6 to rank 7 you will need x number of RPs. Once you have that met you have x percentage chance of getting a rank 7 of that type. Then players can decide if they want to use a green or blue ward. To click upgrade, it cost x number of diamonds.
This keeps it simple. You can balance out the RP requirements as well. That way when you get a rune/enchant as a drop you can refine it straight away and the RPs become bound currency in that tab.
This reduces items needed to upgrade, reduces inventory space and hopefully makes it easier to understand.
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
and 1 coalward = 100k AD on AH or 1000 Zen on ZM or 200 TT on Tradebar Merchant
owh i need 8.5 Mil AD at least and ++ from refinement and catalyst to make a perfect, but need 2 perfect at least for armor and weapon T_T
Under the new system you only need 2 lesser to make a normal, 2 normals to make a greater, and 2 greaters to make a perfect. You can use anything to get the refining points, including just using the shards if you want the bonus for using the same type.
You need 2 under the new system because 1 that will get refined up to the next rank and one that is burned up as a catalyst. This reduces the number of coals you will need to make a perfect (but there is the increase in AD cost that now comes from a successful refining).
After reading what the dev said I can understand the reasoning alittle better. One idea to make things simpler but still use the new system is to get rid of catalyst altogether.
Example: To upgrade a rank 6 to rank 7 you will need x number of RPs. Once you have that met you have x percentage chance of getting a rank 7 of that type. Then players can decide if they want to use a green or blue ward. To click upgrade, it cost x number of diamonds.
This keeps it simple. You can balance out the RP requirements as well. That way when you get a rune/enchant as a drop you can refine it straight away and the RPs become bound currency in that tab.
This reduces items needed to upgrade, reduces inventory space and hopefully makes it easier to understand.
Under your system, if you remove the catalysts, what is the negative when you fail to refine and don't have a preservation ward to protect?
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
Under your system, if you remove the catalysts, what is the negative when you fail to refine and don't have a preservation ward to protect?
You cannot "remove" the catalysts. The catalysts are mandatory--if you don't have them in your inventory (bags or bank), you even cannot try to upgrade the enchantment.
Additionally, only the "catalysts" get used up in the upgrade progress. If you don't put in a ward and would try to upgrade, you would still keep the enchantment (and the status of the refinement points), but you would loose the catalysts! Therefore: the wards protect the catalysts.
Feedback: General
I see the great benefit of the new system in that regard, that you e. g. start with a rank 5 enchantment and place it in your belt. With the new system, you can upgrade the enchantment, while it is still slotted in the equipment item. And if you want to play RNG and not use a ward, you would not loose the enchantment--only the catalysts. Therefore you keep your investment you put into your equipment, either way.
The only thing, I'm not yet sure about is the overall cost (materials & ADs) for the upgrades. We're still doing some number crunching. So: tbc. 8-)
Use the old system, add AD cost to upgrading ranks. Reduce number of enchantments required to upgrade from rank 6-10. You'll get similar ratio of runes per rank as the new system without introducing the additional complexity.
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You cannot "remove" the catalysts. The catalysts are mandatory--if you don't have them in your inventory (bags or bank), you even cannot try to upgrade the enchantment.
Additionally, only the "catalysts" get used up in the upgrade progress. If you don't put in a ward and would try to upgrade, you would still keep the enchantment (and the status of the refinement points), but you would loose the catalysts! Therefore: the wards protect the catalysts.
Yes, I know how it works. I was asking vteasy how it work under his proposed suggestion to remove catalysts from the refining system.
Comments
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Perhaps i havnt spent enough time to understand the capabilities on the new system. Are you saying i can take a R4, dump hundreds of runes/enchants into it, upgrade once and could have a R7? If not then how is the new system any different in terms of cost/chances of loss than live? Still appears to be compounding without the transparency of cost.
On live people didnt lose R6+ via the chance of loss as they used wards. Which are a fraction of the cost of i.e a R7 Dark.
What this appears to be is building a previously percieved, non existant loss factor to be a real unavoidable loss factor into the cost.
30% chance using preservation wards for R7 combine, could take 1-10 wards depending on your luck (4k-40k cost) VS 2 extra R7's 80k-320k depending on the type and still needing the wards.
I'm not trying to be difficult but i dont understand the reasoning.
**Edit: Thinking on this more... This appears to be based on a "new" cost to make vs those already made in the old system. This could be why it doesnt sit well with people as all they have to compare against is what they have built thus far and that appears to be soon devalued in a new system.
What you do is take 1 r4, dump runes/enchants into it until it hits the refinement points need to go to rank 5. At that point you use the catalyst (and wards to protect the catalyst in the same you did before with enchantments) and rank it up to 6. If it succeeds you lose the catalyst and pay the AD cost. If you fail (and don't have a preservation ward to protect the catalyst) you lose the catalyst, don't pay AD, and the enchantment doesn't rank up.
So assuming you succeed, you now have a rank 5 enchantment which you can dump any level/type enchantment/rune into until you hit the refinement cap. Rank it up with a new catalyst and you have a rank 6, and then you can do it over to get a rank 7.
In the process, you will use less wards and make use of junk enchantments/runes you wouldn't have before, but will have to pay an AD cost and have to gather catalysts as well.
But the loss was still mitigated using wards. i.e. Lose several wards vs lose several enchantments.
This still doesnt seem to justify the +50% extra enchantments needed for a reduction in wards lost. On the lower demanded/cost enchants like Silvery/Azure this wont be as bad but for Dark i'd rather lose extra wards than be charged extra enchantments.
Narrated By Sgt. Knox.
No, I do not think you are different. I too am curious about this data. I assume what they mean is they were not receiving the anticipated ad from people unsloting their gear. I have never unslotted a piece of gear, and do not think I ever would. I would either destroy what is in a slot, grind a second piece of the same gear to put something new in the slot (keeping the old gear to swap into) or simply sell the gear with the enchant in a slot.
This is now forcing people to 'engage the current system' and incur the costs they were avoiding... but not likely. My guess is people will not use this system to avoid the costs.
I think it may be possible that the data indicates that people often toss the enchants. Again, I think this is due to the space requirements/limitations involved in using the current enchant system. I have several friends that tell me they toss enchants because they will never be able to get them to the level they need, but rather are saving ad to get the enchant off the ah.
The ad costs will kill the casual players desire to engage the system.
thanks for explaining this. it will take some getting used to after the old (current) system.
as for the AD costs involved, it should be stated that in the current system, it's nothing to drop a r5 enchant over another one and therefore not spend AD at all to remove enchants. there are also people that will not slot gear until they have what they want... be it a r7 or higher. which again eliminates the spending of AD to remove enchants.
so while you've removed the AD cost to remove enchants and are moving it to the refining of enchants... how is that justified when there are people that may not spend any AD in their enchant slotting processes?
How is it frustrating to click 4 and select fuse? I don't get where the frustration lies. What's frustrating is the big jump in failure rates and that's why I personally don't "engage in the current system" past rank 6 enchantments.
If you want to improve the system and make it less frustrating then either remove or lower the failure chances. Leave the top tier 1% or whatever but look into the earlier ones easier to make.
So basically like Identify Scrolls? If so I find that reasonable. Hopefully they wont be priced crazy for the higher ones since you apparently are building the AD costs into the enchantment system upfront.
Rank 1 --> 2 = 20AD
Rank 2 --> 3 = 50AD
Rank 3 --> 4 = 200AD
Rank 4 --> 5 = 1000AD
Rank 5 --> 6 = 5000AD
The remainder of the costs someone else has detailed here.
Otherwise the system is good, however it costs more to upgrade at higher (4 total for rank 4-5 but you need 6 from rank 7-8)
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I've run a lot of Dungeons with people who simply had ether no enchantments or very high tier enchantments in their gear. People preferred to wait until they had collected and fused a T7-T10 enchantment before slotting it in, because of the freakishly high cost for unslotting them. It's something players do rarely, if at all.
But fusing Gems I pretty much do every day, not only those I intent to slot in, but also the T3 gems I find to get T5.T6 T7 etc. It already is pretty much an Ad sink, since I have to buy tons of wards on the later levels to not loose too many high level gems, and one Ward a week from Celestial Coins just doesn't cut it.
I'm willing to occasionally invest real money into things like inventory space, special mounts or similar Items, but I'm not willing to make daily payments in order to play a f2p game, so I always used my AD for Wards and I'm pretty sure others do as well.
Point is, you are taking a small AD sink most people avoided out (Though avoiding it likely contributed to why a lot of people shunned the system) and add in a huge AD sink people are unable to avoid in.
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Totally agree with tang56.
And another person who is making sense.
No one cared to unslot the runes/enchantments because of the high cost. So removing the Ad from that is pointless as players only slotted low level runes that were easily discarded and/or over-slotted them with better ranks, without the AD cost!
Instead now you have ceated an AD sink/money making scheme to make players pay for something that is more readily done. Now where you previously had no AD being used (fusing), you now have created your Ad sink where many players refine their stones to higher ranking causing them to lose out on AD a whole lot faster. Of course you just throw in a smoke screen trying/hoping to make it look like it's a better method, when in fact it is not.
Gold is easily gotten, whereas AD isn't. Yes there are ways to get AD, but it takes time vs. gold you can easily get 15+ gold in a day.
Again the current method of fusing is much better than this new scheme of refining stones that charges AD. Yes I frequently fuse runes and enchants, and with the new refining scheme, i will become broke and take forever to save up AD.
All you are doing with the AD costs, is steering players towards gold/ad spammers making you lose out on more potential customers.
I liked the fact that I could take enchantments I don't need and use them to progress the enchantments I do use, but when the AD cost creeped in and then you've added yet another resource into the mix... well that soured the whole deal and now I want even less to do with your enchantments.
The old system meant I stopped trying to "craft" enchantments after they got to R5/6 because of the AD cost. Were I to start a new character, lets say a Ranger for example, I would now have to use AD (which undoubtedly PWE is hoping I'd be buying with $$$->ZEN->AD) just to get it to R5/6 enchantments.
Under these conditions, I'd rather have to pay $20 to unlock the Ranger class forever rather than be forced to pay AD for every enchantment I need to progress, especially since AD cost rises with each enchantment-level.
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If go to refine an enchantment that is already slotted in equipment, and the enchantment window is already open, the listed result won't update. Screenshot
Bug: Refinement UI
If you slot a artifact into another artifact to use to refine and then change what you want to refine to an enchantment/runestone the artifact won't remove itself from the list of things to be refined. If you try to refine with nothing else in refining slots, nothing happens but if one of the other refining slots is filled with something that is valid for refinement, you lose the artifact (and gain no refining points in the process)
Screenshot with Artifact ready to be refine
Screenshot with enchantment ready to be refined trying to use artifact
This x100... I think a lot of people were playing this way. I totally avoided the removal cost by not doing it. You could place new enchants on top of old ones. This new system says just don't use the enchanting system at all and forget about the high level enchants.
I agree. I really do not like this new system. Not only do you require astral diamonds, but you also need a catalyst now.
I dont see how they saw this new system nessecary. I do see what they are trying to do with this new system, but it needs some adaptions.
Before you just needed 4 of the same kind of enchant of the same type to fuse with a chance to fail (presevation wards prevented 1 from being lost, and coal. ward garrenteed a success). To upgrade higher 4 of that rank are needed. It took longer but it worked. And you only used astral diamonds to take them out.
This new system puts 3 barriers up now. Astral diamonds, catalysts and gold.And it also makes it harder for someone who decides they want to switch enchants. They have to take a whole new enchant and go through the long haul and astral diamonds, gold and catalysts to rank that one up.
I'm going to look into it more, but as it is now, its not seeming that inviting. And only seems to make its feature more complicated to newer players.
And to chime in on what it was said earlier in the thread:
This puts a very huge barrier on newer characters. Where you didnt have to worry about extracting enchantments if you didnt want to. But you can fuse enchantments at any level, even on a fresh character. Now in the new system, you cant do that, for it requires AD just to simply fuse enchantments. This new system is borderline hostile in nature. And many new players will simply try to avoid it altogether. Im testing this new system under two perspectives, as a veteran player and in the eyes of a new player and both perspectives dont seem to outweigh the pro's than the cons.
This sort of answers the question of why the change. A lot of people weren't unslotting enchantments, thus not spending the AD that the developers thought they would. With the new "improved" system it's simply moved to the other end of the equation where people don't really have the ability to not pay it.
the bug is just not on short buton only, but automaticaly merged with each other gem after refinement is bug Right?,,, so, what solution for now?
and yeah i disagre with catalyst ingredient and AD cost for upgrade.... and i think with just ward is so expensive [need 5 coalward(=500k AD on AH or 5000zen on Zen Market) for make normal enchantment from shard, normal to great =... coalward?, great to perfect=... coalward]
I've never spent any AD on removing enchantment. Ever. I simply didn't slot them till I get good item. Now, I'm forced to waste my gold AND my AD BOTH while using new system. No, just no. Leave the unslotting cost as it is, and I just won't use it as I did before.
shard->Normal = 4 Lesser + 1 coal = 4 coal + 1 coal = 5 coal
shard->Greater = 4 Normal + 1 coal = 20 coal + 1 Coal = 21 coal
shard->Perfect = 4 Greater + 1 Coal = 84 coal + 1 coal = 85 coal
and 1 coal = 100k AD on AH or 1000 Zen on ZM or 200 TT on Tradebar Merchant
shard->Normal = 4 Lesser + 1 coal = 4 coal + 1 coal = 5 coal
shard->Greater = 4 Normal + 1 coal = 20 coal + 1 Coal = 21 coal
shard->Perfect = 4 Greater + 1 Coal = 84 coal + 1 coal = 85 coal
and 1 coalward = 100k AD on AH or 1000 Zen on ZM or 200 TT on Tradebar Merchant
owh i need 8.5 Mil AD at least and ++ from refinement and catalyst to make a perfect, but need 2 perfect at least for armor and weapon T_T
Example: To upgrade a rank 6 to rank 7 you will need x number of RPs. Once you have that met you have x percentage chance of getting a rank 7 of that type. Then players can decide if they want to use a green or blue ward. To click upgrade, it cost x number of diamonds.
This keeps it simple. You can balance out the RP requirements as well. That way when you get a rune/enchant as a drop you can refine it straight away and the RPs become bound currency in that tab.
This reduces items needed to upgrade, reduces inventory space and hopefully makes it easier to understand.
Under the new system you only need 2 lesser to make a normal, 2 normals to make a greater, and 2 greaters to make a perfect. You can use anything to get the refining points, including just using the shards if you want the bonus for using the same type.
You need 2 under the new system because 1 that will get refined up to the next rank and one that is burned up as a catalyst. This reduces the number of coals you will need to make a perfect (but there is the increase in AD cost that now comes from a successful refining).
So...
shard->Lesser=1 coal
shard->Normal = 2 lesser + 1 coal = 3 coal
shard->greater = 2 normal + 1 coal = 7 coal
shard->perfect = 2 greater + 1 coal = 15 coal
Under your system, if you remove the catalysts, what is the negative when you fail to refine and don't have a preservation ward to protect?
Additionally, only the "catalysts" get used up in the upgrade progress. If you don't put in a ward and would try to upgrade, you would still keep the enchantment (and the status of the refinement points), but you would loose the catalysts! Therefore: the wards protect the catalysts.
Feedback: General
I see the great benefit of the new system in that regard, that you e. g. start with a rank 5 enchantment and place it in your belt. With the new system, you can upgrade the enchantment, while it is still slotted in the equipment item. And if you want to play RNG and not use a ward, you would not loose the enchantment--only the catalysts. Therefore you keep your investment you put into your equipment, either way.
The only thing, I'm not yet sure about is the overall cost (materials & ADs) for the upgrades. We're still doing some number crunching. So: tbc. 8-)
Yes, I know how it works. I was asking vteasy how it work under his proposed suggestion to remove catalysts from the refining system.