You need 4 R4s to refine R4 (1 base, 3 for the RPs)
You need 12 R4s to refine the received R5
You need 48 R4s to refine the received R6
You need 192 R4s to refine the received R7 (128 to refine the R7 itself and one 64*R4 = R7 as Catalyst)
You need 640 R4s to refine the received R8 (384 to refine the R8 itself and one 256*R4 = R8 as Catalyst)
You need 2048 R4s to refine the received R9 (1152 to refine the R9 itself and one 896*R4 = R9 as Catalyst)
So its even less to R9 when using only R4s (896). But I think currently the RPs might be bugged. The system seems to be quite linear, yet an R7 enchant consisting of 64 R4s (270 RP per = 17280) only gives half the RP (8640). Same issue with R8 (69.120 when using R4s, 25.920 alone) and R9 (241.920 RPs in R4s and 77.760 alone), so it's better to use only R4s instead of refining >R7s and use them.
For the AD:
One R5 costs 1.000 AD
One R6 costs 5.000 AD
One R7 costs 25.000 AD
One R8 costs 81.000 AD (50.000 + another 31.000 to get the R7 used as Catalyst)
One R9 costs 156.000 AD (75.000 + another 81.000 to get the R8 used as Catalyst)
One R10 costs 256.000 AD (100.000 + another 156.000 to get the R9 used as Catalyst)
Adds up to 268.000 per R9 + an unknown combination of coal and preservation wards
R10 is 524.000 + an unknown combination of coal and preservation wards
As for armor weapon: Lesser is simply +25k as you still need four shards + coal. Then it seems to be the same: Continue with fusing shards into the refining process, they give more RP.
One plus: Other type of shards give only half the RP, but I'd say its still nice to be able to turn Holy Avengers into Vorpals, right?
Did you test to get this figures or math them out? They are wrong based on my tests for the latter ranks.
I tried to level up a Rank 7 dark to a rank 8 dark. After 3 R7 Darks added it was only 3/4. So it needed 4 to level it.
Add in 1 more as one of the catalyst components + the original. Thats 6?!?! R7s to make 1 R8.
Plus the cost of the Great mark of prophecy or whatever its called
Plus the AD cost.
****ing mental.
For R1-R3 i think its 3 of the previous rank to level (9 r1s to make a r3), R4-6 is 4 of the previous rank to level (16 r4s to make a r6), R7-R9 enchants take 6 of the previous rank to level (36 r7s to make a 9).
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But the r4's price on the AH does not reach the AD cost ><
Man, it' really hard to get 1kk AD, imagine how many millions of AD will be need to fully enhance your set! It's really unfair
It really, really isn't hard to get 1kk AD. Get in a good guild and run GG T2. Drops are amazing. I sold Skulkers Helm, Boots and Bracers for around 1kk each (got those three pieces over the course of two weeks). That's three million and I'm not even a strong farmer. That, plus Leadership, plus Dailies makes AD not hard to come by.
This new system is absolutely terrible. Nothing is wrong with how the current fusing system works.
This new refininf method is in no way more enjoyable, on the contrary it gave me a headache trying it out.
If I'm going to pay ADs to refine into higher rune/enchant, then i sure a hell don't need to use any type of wards or the stupid catalyst in order to refine into a hire rune/enchantment.
Catalyst stupid? You bet, because it is now required to have a type of catalyst in order to refine into a higher rank. Not like right now where we are not required to use anything to attempt the fusing into a higher ranking stone.
See link below, to see what others who have tried the new system on the preview shard are saying and agreeing, that this system of getting higher ranksin stones is terrible and not wanted.
I still can't figure out what you are talking about, what new "upgrade" ? o_O
In the preview feedback description the y talk about upgrading stones, I was so irritated by trying new process I just read upgrade and ran with it. It is just a horrible change
The older system is more enjoyable and less hectic on AD.
0
bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited October 2013
The current system is nice because is it simple and intuitive - you need 4 like-items, and it shows you the chance for a successful fusion. The only extra step is that you can use a ward to prevent the loss of 1 item if it fails, or to simply guarantee a success. Two basic steps is all you need to know, and no extra knowledge or inventory space is required.
This proposed system is complicated and muddles what is actually needed in a UI that is clunky and unclear. All the other stuff that comes along with it, (such as not being able to simply overwrite an already-slotted enchant), further aggravates things.
If you want to change to a new system, here's my proposal:
1. Allow already-slotted runes/enchants to be overwritten if so desired.
2. Get rid of the whole "in progress" refinement step. Make it so you must upgrade all in 1 step - this eliminates having to keep track of "partially refined" runes or enchants.
3. If you insist on using catalysts, allow a way for us to create them directly, by using this system - like maybe 1 of any type of shard, if attempted to be refined with regular runes or enchants, will create a catalyst instead, (make sure tooltips are clear on this).
4. I can live with there being an additional gold cost to unslot enchants, or an AD cost to refine, but it must be exceedingly trivial - the currently projected numbers are simply too high, and escalate too quickly.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
This new system lacks an incentive for people to log in and play at specific times. It should allow upgrading of enchantments at specific periods of time (based on Neverwinter clock, not GST), for example allowing a 30 minute window during high noon for holy avenger enchantments to be upgraded, or midnight for silvery enchantments. If a player attempts to upgrade at any other period of time, a large fine in gold AND AD should be levied, as well as halved chance of success, with the enchantment being destroyed during failure. This will incentivize people to play the game more, and spend real life money on a zen store one-time-use item that allows an enchantment to be upgraded to the next level without suffering the consequences of being upgraded at the wrong period of time. This would bring a lot more enjoyment to the game.
This new system lacks an incentive for people to log in and play at specific times. It should allow upgrading of enchantments at specific periods of time (based on Neverwinter clock, not GST), for example allowing a 30 minute window during high noon for holy avenger enchantments to be upgraded, or midnight for silvery enchantments. If a player attempts to upgrade at any other period of time, a large fine in gold AND AD should be levied, as well as halved chance of success, with the enchantment being destroyed during failure. This will incentivize people to play the game more, and spend real life money on a zen store one-time-use item that allows an enchantment to be upgraded to the next level without suffering the consequences of being upgraded at the wrong period of time. This would bring a lot more enjoyment to the game.
And they must be standing on their head chanting the super secret mantra.
The component of this change that I find baffling is the reasoning behind it. What, exactly, is prompting this? I don't recall ever seeing a complaint about the current fusion mechanics on the forums or the in game chat. There's no obvious gameplay benefit to the players in terms of executing the mechanics (in other words, it doesn't simplify anything). So why, exactly, is this being changed?
Did you test to get this figures or math them out? They are wrong based on my tests for the latter ranks.
I tried to level up a Rank 7 dark to a rank 8 dark. After 3 R7 Darks added it was only 3/4. So it needed 4 to level it.
Add in 1 more as one of the catalyst components + the original. Thats 6?!?! R7s to make 1 R8.
Plus the cost of the Great mark of prophecy or whatever its called
Plus the AD cost.
****ing mental.
For R1-R3 i think its 3 of the previous rank to level (9 r1s to make a r3), R4-6 is 4 of the previous rank to level (16 r4s to make a r6), R7-R9 enchants take 6 of the previous rank to level (36 r7s to make a 9).
As I've pointed out, using R7s is not the most efficient way to refine. Use R4s only.
0
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This new system lacks an incentive for people to log in and play at specific times. It should allow upgrading of enchantments at specific periods of time (based on Neverwinter clock, not GST), for example allowing a 30 minute window during high noon for holy avenger enchantments to be upgraded, or midnight for silvery enchantments. If a player attempts to upgrade at any other period of time, a large fine in gold AND AD should be levied, as well as halved chance of success, with the enchantment being destroyed during failure. This will incentivize people to play the game more, and spend real life money on a zen store one-time-use item that allows an enchantment to be upgraded to the next level without suffering the consequences of being upgraded at the wrong period of time. This would bring a lot more enjoyment to the game.
You know people have jobs, school, family, friends, and other things to take care of, right?
Not everyone is a social parasite that plays Neverwinter 24/7.
0
rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited October 2013
I don't think chocobofarmer's post was entirely serious. Or even a little bit.
after getting more information on the way it's supposed to work, i may have been too quick with my statements about this. the new system will take some getting used to but it is a better system. it is nothing like the fusing system. the idea is that you will set up your slotted enchants and feed them with enchant drops. you will never have to stock gems in bank/inventory slots again. also, the catalyst items should be regularly dropped although they will be added to the wondrous bazaar.
0
kimonkaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
after getting more information on the way it's supposed to work, i may have been too quick with my statements about this. the new system will take some getting used to but it is a better system. it is nothing like the fusing system. the idea is that you will set up your slotted enchants and feed them with enchant drops. you will never have to stock gems in bank/inventory slots again. also, the catalyst items should be regularly dropped although they will be added to the wondrous bazaar.
Hopefully this doesn't bankrupt my AD bank !
0
khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
edited October 2013
I really like the new system so far. I think most people dislike it because they don't understand it yet. It will simplify things a lot. For example: now to go from Rank 4 to Rank 6 you need 5 fusions, all with a possibility to fail (which can complicate things a lot), with the new system you only need 2 refineries so you have a chance to fail 2 times. It's true, you have to pay a fee for it, but the fees aren't that high, considering the value of the item you create and that now you can un-slot the enchantments for dirt-cheap and slot it into another item as many times as you like.
R10 is 524.000 + an unknown combination of coal and preservation wards
You need a maximum of 6 Coal. Wards to go from Rank 4 to Rank 10, though you' probably use 3 or 4.
Overall, that is not very expensive, especially considering how expensive a Rank 10 Enchantment is at this moment, to buy or to make for yourself. This will make the prices in the AH drop as well.
Plus you can use any kind of Enchantment/Rune/Shard to upgrade to ones you want to keep. This means that you won't have to keep them in your inventory till you get 4 of each kind so you can try and fuse them, and that you will have a use for those low level enchants you get sometimes if you help a low level friend with a dungeon.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
I really like the new system so far. I think most people dislike it because they don't understand it yet. It will simplify things a lot. For example: now to go from Rank 4 to Rank 6 you need 5 fusions, all with a possibility to fail (which can complicate things a lot), with the new system you only need 2 refineries so you have a chance to fail 2 times. It's true, you have to pay a fee for it, but the fees aren't that high, considering the value of the item you create and that now you can un-slot the enchantments for dirt-cheap and slot it into another item as many times as you like.
You need a maximum of 6 Coal. Wards to go from Rank 4 to Rank 10, though you' probably use 3 or 4.
Overall, that is not very expensive, especially considering how expensive a Rank 10 Enchantment is at this moment, to buy or to make for yourself. This will make the prices in the AH drop as well.
Plus you can use any kind of Enchantment/Rune/Shard to upgrade to ones you want to keep. This means that you won't have to keep them in your inventory till you get 4 of each kind so you can try and fuse them, and that you will have a use for those low level enchants you get sometimes if you help a low level friend with a dungeon.
Ok, so I must not understand this new system at all. When I tried to upgrade my enchants to rank 7 it took 400 rank 4s and 32k AD plus it was going to take some kind of catalyst. That is not anywhere as good as current system.
0
khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
Ok, so I must not understand this new system at all. When I tried to upgrade my enchants to rank 7 it took 400 rank 4s and 32k AD plus it was going to take some kind of catalyst. That is not anywhere as good as current system.
Yes, and before you needed 64 Rank 4 (I think) of the same kind with a whole bunch of fusions that have a fairly high chance to fail on each fusion. Now you only needed 3 upgrades to get from Rank 4 to Rank 7, and you could actually use Rank 4 Enchantments to upgrade a Rank 6 one, and it didn't even mater which kind it was. If you want to go from Rank 7 to Rank 8 it will take just another upgrade. You won't have to make 3 other Rank 7 and risk failing on every one or use Coal. Wards, which would mean +300K AD. How is the new system not better?
You payed 32K for a Rank 7? How much is a Rank 7 in the AH now? Around 3 times as much depending on which type it is. And with the new system you can un-slot that Enchantment and slot it into something else if you want without paying a fortune like we have to now.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
Ok, so I must not understand this new system at all. When I tried to upgrade my enchants to rank 7 it took 400 rank 4s and 32k AD plus it was going to take some kind of catalyst. That is not anywhere as good as current system.
I agree. I really do not like this new system. Not only do you require astral diamonds, but you also need a catalyst now.
I dont see how they saw this new system nessecary. I do see what they are trying to do with this new system, but it needs some new adaptions.
Before you just needed 4 of the same kind of enchant of the same type to fuse with a chance to fail (presevation wards prevented 1 from being lost, and coal. ward garrenteed a success). To upgrade higher 4 of that rank are needed. It took longer but it worked. And you only used astral diamonds to take them out.
This new system puts 3 barriers up now. Astral diamonds, catalysts and gold.And it also makes it harder for someone who decides they want to switch enchants. They have to take a whole new enchant and go through the long haul and astral diamonds, gold and catalysts to rank that one up.
I'm going to look into it more, but as it is now, its not seeming that inviting. And only seems to make its feature more complicated to newer players.
I like this system more. Before I would just sell them and only keep what I wanted. Now I keep all and rank them up to then be used in my artifact to rank it up.
With the enchants if you get one done, it has a progress to the next rank. But you could have another with a lesser progress going on it. With the progress, if you fill all 5 slots, if successful you have progress added towards the next rank. I think it would be harder to have the progress on the enchants using the old system
0
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You need a maximum of 6 Coal. Wards to go from Rank 4 to Rank 10, though you' probably use 3 or 4.
Overall, that is not very expensive, especially considering how expensive a Rank 10 Enchantment is at this moment, to buy or to make for yourself. This will make the prices in the AH drop as well.
Plus you can use any kind of Enchantment/Rune/Shard to upgrade to ones you want to keep. This means that you won't have to keep them in your inventory till you get 4 of each kind so you can try and fuse them, and that you will have a use for those low level enchants you get sometimes if you help a low level friend with a dungeon.
You need a maximum of 18 Coalwards to go from Rank 4 to 10 (don't forget you need an additional R7, R8 and R9 as Catalyst). And whether or not you want to use them depends on the price of the Catalyst you risk to lose.
0
khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
You need a maximum of 18 Coalwards to go from Rank 4 to 10 (don't forget you need an additional R7, R8 and R9 as Catalyst). And whether or not you want to use them depends on the price of the Catalyst you risk to lose.
It seems I am missing some information about Catalysts. I can't log in to the Preview Shard and test things for myself. Still, it seems less then what we need now.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
and 1 coal = 100k AD on AH or 1000 Zen on ZM or 200 TT on Tradebar Merchant
Will there be less or more coals needed with the coming changes, to reach the greater enchant? How is the value of coals expected to change? Is it worth crafting the greater soulforge enchant now or wait until patch to craft it cheaper?
I used 24+ rank 3 enchants (not of the same type) to get enough RP to upgrade a rank 4 dark enchant into rank 5 (and then couldnt cause lack of a GREEN catalyst)
Really?
Put in that perspective, it doesnt even seem worth it.
0
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Will there be less or more coals needed with the coming changes, to reach the greater enchant? How is the value of coals expected to change? Is it worth crafting the greater soulforge enchant now or wait until patch to craft it cheaper?
Less. Under the new system only 2 lessers are needed to make a normal, 2 normals to make a greater, and 2 greaters to make a perfect. You can use any enchantment/runestone/shards you get the refining points needed.
I used 24+ rank 3 enchants (not of the same type) to get enough RP to upgrade a rank 4 dark enchant into rank 5 (and then couldnt cause lack of a GREEN catalyst)
Really?
Put in that perspective, it doesnt even seem worth it.
And if they are the same type as the enchantment you are upgrading, that amount needed to upgrade a rank is less due to the same type bonus.
Comments
Did you test to get this figures or math them out? They are wrong based on my tests for the latter ranks.
I tried to level up a Rank 7 dark to a rank 8 dark. After 3 R7 Darks added it was only 3/4. So it needed 4 to level it.
Add in 1 more as one of the catalyst components + the original. Thats 6?!?! R7s to make 1 R8.
Plus the cost of the Great mark of prophecy or whatever its called
Plus the AD cost.
****ing mental.
For R1-R3 i think its 3 of the previous rank to level (9 r1s to make a r3), R4-6 is 4 of the previous rank to level (16 r4s to make a r6), R7-R9 enchants take 6 of the previous rank to level (36 r7s to make a 9).
It really, really isn't hard to get 1kk AD. Get in a good guild and run GG T2. Drops are amazing. I sold Skulkers Helm, Boots and Bracers for around 1kk each (got those three pieces over the course of two weeks). That's three million and I'm not even a strong farmer. That, plus Leadership, plus Dailies makes AD not hard to come by.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
This new refininf method is in no way more enjoyable, on the contrary it gave me a headache trying it out.
If I'm going to pay ADs to refine into higher rune/enchant, then i sure a hell don't need to use any type of wards or the stupid catalyst in order to refine into a hire rune/enchantment.
Catalyst stupid? You bet, because it is now required to have a type of catalyst in order to refine into a higher rank. Not like right now where we are not required to use anything to attempt the fusing into a higher ranking stone.
See link below, to see what others who have tried the new system on the preview shard are saying and agreeing, that this system of getting higher ranksin stones is terrible and not wanted.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?516571-Cryptic-OFFICIAL-Feedback-Thread-Refinement-System
Read these posts and listen to your players, do not put this in the live server. Scrap it altogether!
In the preview feedback description the y talk about upgrading stones, I was so irritated by trying new process I just read upgrade and ran with it. It is just a horrible change
The older system is more enjoyable and less hectic on AD.
This proposed system is complicated and muddles what is actually needed in a UI that is clunky and unclear. All the other stuff that comes along with it, (such as not being able to simply overwrite an already-slotted enchant), further aggravates things.
If you want to change to a new system, here's my proposal:
1. Allow already-slotted runes/enchants to be overwritten if so desired.
2. Get rid of the whole "in progress" refinement step. Make it so you must upgrade all in 1 step - this eliminates having to keep track of "partially refined" runes or enchants.
3. If you insist on using catalysts, allow a way for us to create them directly, by using this system - like maybe 1 of any type of shard, if attempted to be refined with regular runes or enchants, will create a catalyst instead, (make sure tooltips are clear on this).
4. I can live with there being an additional gold cost to unslot enchants, or an AD cost to refine, but it must be exceedingly trivial - the currently projected numbers are simply too high, and escalate too quickly.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Yes, it is very much thought out and polished. And whoever thought of it should be sacked immediately for wasting company time.
And they must be standing on their head chanting the super secret mantra.
As I've pointed out, using R7s is not the most efficient way to refine. Use R4s only.
Yes, under the new system, just use the r4s to get to the refinement points needed to rank up. No need to fuse them along the way.
You know people have jobs, school, family, friends, and other things to take care of, right?
Not everyone is a social parasite that plays Neverwinter 24/7.
Ahahaha yes. After checking his post history it seems that post was indeed just a joke.
My bad.
It was just written so seriously and detailed, I really thought he meant it.
Overall, that is not very expensive, especially considering how expensive a Rank 10 Enchantment is at this moment, to buy or to make for yourself. This will make the prices in the AH drop as well.
Plus you can use any kind of Enchantment/Rune/Shard to upgrade to ones you want to keep. This means that you won't have to keep them in your inventory till you get 4 of each kind so you can try and fuse them, and that you will have a use for those low level enchants you get sometimes if you help a low level friend with a dungeon.
Ok, so I must not understand this new system at all. When I tried to upgrade my enchants to rank 7 it took 400 rank 4s and 32k AD plus it was going to take some kind of catalyst. That is not anywhere as good as current system.
You payed 32K for a Rank 7? How much is a Rank 7 in the AH now? Around 3 times as much depending on which type it is. And with the new system you can un-slot that Enchantment and slot it into something else if you want without paying a fortune like we have to now.
I agree. I really do not like this new system. Not only do you require astral diamonds, but you also need a catalyst now.
I dont see how they saw this new system nessecary. I do see what they are trying to do with this new system, but it needs some new adaptions.
Before you just needed 4 of the same kind of enchant of the same type to fuse with a chance to fail (presevation wards prevented 1 from being lost, and coal. ward garrenteed a success). To upgrade higher 4 of that rank are needed. It took longer but it worked. And you only used astral diamonds to take them out.
This new system puts 3 barriers up now. Astral diamonds, catalysts and gold.And it also makes it harder for someone who decides they want to switch enchants. They have to take a whole new enchant and go through the long haul and astral diamonds, gold and catalysts to rank that one up.
I'm going to look into it more, but as it is now, its not seeming that inviting. And only seems to make its feature more complicated to newer players.
With the enchants if you get one done, it has a progress to the next rank. But you could have another with a lesser progress going on it. With the progress, if you fill all 5 slots, if successful you have progress added towards the next rank. I think it would be harder to have the progress on the enchants using the old system
You need a maximum of 18 Coalwards to go from Rank 4 to 10 (don't forget you need an additional R7, R8 and R9 as Catalyst). And whether or not you want to use them depends on the price of the Catalyst you risk to lose.
shard->Normal = 4 Lesser + 1 coal = 4 coal + 1 coal = 5 coal
shard->Greater = 4 Normal + 1 coal = 20 coal + 1 Coal = 21 coal
shard->Perfect = 4 greater + 1 Coal = 84 coal + 1 coal = 85 coal
and 1 coal = 100k AD on AH or 1000 Zen on ZM or 200 TT on Tradebar Merchant
Will there be less or more coals needed with the coming changes, to reach the greater enchant? How is the value of coals expected to change? Is it worth crafting the greater soulforge enchant now or wait until patch to craft it cheaper?
Really?
Put in that perspective, it doesnt even seem worth it.
Less. Under the new system only 2 lessers are needed to make a normal, 2 normals to make a greater, and 2 greaters to make a perfect. You can use any enchantment/runestone/shards you get the refining points needed.
And if they are the same type as the enchantment you are upgrading, that amount needed to upgrade a rank is less due to the same type bonus.