Out. Figured since it's got a fairly large damage AOE, would be hard to test it and not do any damage whatsoever.
I'm just wondering if AP generation is tied to hitting an enemy. Apart from the CW's Storm Pillar and a DC healing, I don't know of any powers that generate AP outside of combat. It might be like leveling skills in Skryim, you have to hit a 'valid target' for the effect to register.
@kolatmaster
Due to not having a regular group and the reputation the class has, I've avoided doing much more than skirmishes with mine. She's a destroyer but I rarely go after the boss. In the latest CTA for instance, I usually tried to hunt down the Summoners, Hellfire Magi and Blazing Skeletons to cutdown the AOE spam. There was usually enough rogues and wizards to go around and most of those groups just wanted to zerg the biggest thing on the field, anyway.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
I'm just wondering if AP generation is tied to hitting an enemy. Apart from the CW's Storm Pillar and a DC healing, I don't know of any powers that generate AP outside of combat. It might be like leveling skills in Skryim, you have to hit a 'valid target' for the effect to register.
The Clerics healing spells actually has to heal damage to give AP and divinity. (One, exception tho, but that's AP only.)
I'm just wondering if AP generation is tied to hitting an enemy. Apart from the CW's Storm Pillar and a DC healing, I don't know of any powers that generate AP outside of combat. It might be like leveling skills in Skryim, you have to hit a 'valid target' for the effect to register.
@kolatmaster
Due to not having a regular group and the reputation the class has, I've avoided doing much more than skirmishes with mine. She's a destroyer but I rarely go after the boss. In the latest CTA for instance, I usually tried to hunt down the Summoners, Hellfire Magi and Blazing Skeletons to cutdown the AOE spam. There was usually enough rogues and wizards to go around and most of those groups just wanted to zerg the biggest thing on the field, anyway.
The only ability I've seen that works outside of combat is the CW's lighting strike ability that they can fire outside of combat. I know I'm not too friendly towards CW's, but if GWF's had this kind of thing, I'd definitely be cycling it between mobs to get more AP.
As per the issue of going after other mobs: if your boss is taken care of, and there's no communication, go for the minors.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Sadly, it sounds to me as if Vortix44 may just not synch well with the class and it's many possible uses. At least not as well as he does with GF. I don't think this is proof the class is broken, just proof that he's better off playing a GF than a GWF.
It happens bud, no worries... Just wanted to point out my thoughts to good sir Vortix44, hope he/she learned a bit! :cool:
@kolatmaster
Due to not having a regular group and the reputation the class has, I've avoided doing much more than skirmishes with mine. She's a destroyer but I rarely go after the boss. In the latest CTA for instance, I usually tried to hunt down the Summoners, Hellfire Magi and Blazing Skeletons to cutdown the AOE spam. There was usually enough rogues and wizards to go around and most of those groups just wanted to zerg the biggest thing on the field, anyway.
That is not a bad idea given the circumstances, as you recognized your 'teams' preferences. However when I ran the CtA Skirmish, on Dakkon Blackblade, I would focused the boss. I would, of course, angle my attacks and positioning to maximize hitting baddies with my AoE attacks (WMS specifically), but my main focus always was the boss. He moved around a lot, particularly with his teleport back to original point after his giant AoE.
Just saying kudos for recognizing your teams 'preference' (I'd say deficiencies in relations to the CWs wanting to focus the boss though!) and adjusting your role accordingly!
As a Destro spec your better focused on the boss, or specific big adds, but as PandaPaul's thread states Destro is very capable of taking on many roles. Though the role you took on in your example is best done by an Instigator spec.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited October 2013
I should stop all of you right here. You are degernerating into whiney nambi-pambi forums flames.
Cyan, do not claim stats on moves that only come from super high gear. I have done GWF comparisons in base stats to other classes too. However I equipped them only with a Delzoon weapon and no other gear so I can see the base Rank 3 stats of each move unmodified by anything else. And Yes the GWF greatly suffers in this area. But not as much as you might think as a GF your numbers are higher from GF Conquerer power stacking. a GWF crit is not reflected in these numbers.
Sylvia. You come across as a very ignorant player. Even though I suspect English is not your first language. You claim people are not reading your posts but you are so obviously not reading theirs. Especially when other players are confirming some posts made by cyan. You also don't have any understanding on why GWF's powers are looked down upon, without that knowledge you cannot say where they are useful. My opinion is the GWF dailies are so Bad that the only useful one is slam because it is the only one that doesnt stop you from using AT-will for 4-5 seconds at a time and overall losing damage because of it. GWF dailies are very
situational. Spinning Strike is only good in a group of 5 or more tough mobs that wont die before you deal the moves full damage. Avalanche of Steel is a terrible move as it removes the GWF completely from the fight for 4 seconds while you charge a move that is only about as good as the CW Avalanche encounter. An encounter that has all the CC of the GWF daily, most of the damage and does not commit the CW from doing nothing else but this move. It also has the added effect of dealing more damage if left to detonate on its own for about 4-5 seconds where the CW is freely using all his other moves. And no I dont need to post screen shots for making this kind of statement anyone that has watched CW use this move knows it's effectiveness.
Goldheart starting any post by quoting another poster and saying Bla, bla bla will only lead to flames. It's not cool. But you are right to have the point that you see GWF's as damage dealers. So do most players in the game, when a GWF is invited to a party they are expected to deal damage. As no one sees any other uses for them as they have the least utility of the 5 classes. But GWF dont deal signficantly more damage than any of the other classes. All classes are steamlined in damage. No one is more significant than the other. But some show off better in specific situations. TR is soley Single target, while GWF is soley AOE. They are damage dealers that are complete oposite of each other. The problem is single target DPS is essential for boss fights and I see no reason why GWF single target powers fall behind all the other classes single target powers. Only DC doesnt have a host of good single target strikes, but there AOE is awesome and alot better than GWF's encounters. And above all understand that the poeple here posting want positive change in the game, even if you dont care about the game and can ditch it at any point.
Lobo you can preach all you want about 4th edition Pen and paper, but you have to accept that other players will have vastly different views than you in regards to the GWF. Mainly because the class is poorly built with no specific role people try to make it do things that it just can't do, like threat tank or single target DPS. Finding a defining role is the best thing for the class. But to make eveyrone happy for GWF to be a Tank or Defender it needs to be a defender that deals more damage than the GF it needs to be the offensive tank and this will make the damage dealers happy as well. And then you knock Vortix for having an opinion that GF is better than a GWF so he must obviously be a Bad GWF player.... Well I agree with him and I am or at least was the best of the best GWF when I played it. But after seeing other classes and losing my guild and the players that would take me to CN I gave it up just was not in me to keep fighting for the dying class if it meant fighting for CN spots in a new guild and have to prove myself all over again.
If you guys want positive change keep things civil or just join me on the sidelines and check in every couple weeks for some banter and to catch up on the news. Because if any changes are going to be made it will be a long long wait.
what was said above, only disagree with the criticism of the avalanch of steel.
This "absence of 4 sec" the gwf is exactly the advantage of daily cases where you need to take care of himself Horde / is almost dying.
Taking into account the instigator, this duplicity of the technique is even more evident. Remember we still have a feat that give the daily features of "slam".
Assuming these conditions, it understands the "why" of punishing charge.
think even at the time of the beta, where we built ap fast. was perfectly plausible that 3 gwf focusing on recobery "take turns" in avalanch of steel, creating "infinites combos " better than 3 cw turns the singularity.
Our great evil, you well know, is that usually the unpopularity of gwf makes other players do not take into account our powers in some "general plan". not even we usually take our powers into account in general plans.
Lobo you can preach all you want about 4th edition Pen and paper, but you have to accept that other players will have vastly different views than you in regards to the GWF. Mainly because the class is poorly built with no specific role people try to make it do things that it just can't do, like threat tank or single target DPS. Finding a defining role is the best thing for the class. But to make eveyrone happy for GWF to be a Tank or Defender it needs to be a defender that deals more damage than the GF it needs to be the offensive tank and this will make the damage dealers happy as well. And then you knock Vortix for having an opinion that GF is better than a GWF so he must obviously be a Bad GWF player.... Well I agree with him and I am or at least was the best of the best GWF when I played it. But after seeing other classes and losing my guild and the players that would take me to CN I gave it up just was not in me to keep fighting for the dying class if it meant fighting for CN spots in a new guild and have to prove myself all over again.
I do accept that others don't feel the same way I currently feel. But I have to ask, once more:
What is it about a Great Weapon Fighter, be it the classes current mechanics or capabilities, that makes it a damage dealer?
Some players feel that we should be damage dealers because there is a fighter with a shield! But then you try to point to source material and remind them that Dungeons and Dragons is famous for redundant classes. You know that, as classes are added, more redundancy will be added and all the current 'niche' roles will be gone.
Other players feel that we should be damage dealers because we have a big sword! But then you try and point out that we also can wear plate mail armor, the heaviest in the IP. We wear much of the exact same armor as Guardian Fighters, minus the shield.
Some players feel that, because of how we ranked on the damage scoreboard in beta, that we should become damage dealers again! These same individuals dislike you for reminding them that beta is a testing phase, and that there were many unintended exploits (the devs own statements) that allowed GWF to get that high, and that we weren't intended to be that powerful.
Still others say that we have to be damage dealers because they want it! I respect these players more. They are the most honest. So I'm now pushing that they should fight this hard to have a new class, call it a 'Barbarian', added to the game.
To your other comments: I have many solid GWF friends who are very capable and actually play their class. Right now, at this time, instead of sidelining it because it doesn't fit them after beta.
I disagree with your opinion of our dailies, almost entirely. I do support bringing our daily damage up a bit more, but when you start the statement that SLAM is the only good daily? Not winning the point. Because Crescendo's fast acting and long reaching stun doesn't make it an extremely capable single-target and PvP daily. AoS is weak, but nothing clears that position in GG pvp faster, and it's completely immune to all damage and cc while lit. I'm running out of time here.
My whole argument centers on a few points: you no longer play the class cause you can't get into CN and you don't like that it's underpowered. Your opinion is that the class is generally bad, mainly because you can't generate as much damage as you used to.
I can only assume that your 'best of the best' GWF claim was because it was Beta. At which point, don't you realize that your arguing for mechanics that made the class op and broken to begin with? Maybe you liked the exploits, maybe it suited you. But the class doesn't now.
This does not mean, however, that the class now is broken and useless. Just that you can't play it as well as you used to. I can assure you, I play it perfectly well, as do many others. We do have wants and requests. But it's not for what beta was.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
1 - I do not know for sure, but there is a legitimate cw take much damage according to the " canon " ? two weights and two measures ?
2 - I am not a big fan of rpgs " table " , but the name " berserk " , present in several of our armor , not allude to the idea of big damages ? The description of the destroyer then it is even more categorical . What seems more obvious according to his account is that the sentinel is more faithful to the original purpose of gwf
3 - require that the class do " damage beta " is not , in any way , dishonesty . I like the aesthetic of the game / gwf , but if both insisted on was that by studying the possibilities of the class , I realized I had a huge potential but poorly explored damage / control / survival . The rules of the game - never winter ONLINE - changed ; any discontent is legitimate .
4 - if you ask me , I think legitimate of me to want to do everything I did before, and much more . Given the immense unpopularity of the class , I must admit that most of the players are dumb , and therefore deserve to be below those that are more ambitious .
1 - I do not know for sure, but there is a legitimate cw take much damage according to the " canon " ? two weights and two measures ?
Wizards in general had very low HP. Good team organization was needed to keep them alive, though they had a few spells such as Barkskin which allowed them a last-minute defense against a few attacks. Their defense was mostly in their choice of location on the battlefield, and the heavier classes standing between them and the enemy.
2 - I am not a big fan of rpgs " table " , but the name " berserk " , present in several of our armor , not allude to the idea of big damages ? The description of the destroyer then it is even more categorical . What seems more obvious according to his account is that the sentinel is more faithful to the original purpose of gwf
I'm not sure what the translation is in other languages, but in English, there is no reference to a "Berserk" in anything the GWF does. "Unstoppable", on the other hand, is a reference to an encounter ability that Fighters have in 4e, that acts as a self heal.
As in most MMO's, Plate Armor is generally relegated to defensive classes. A Barbarian in chain-mail, much like a Viking, is a very different beast than a Great Weapon Fighter in plate, much like a Knight.
I don't think "heaviest armor imaginable", even sans shield, and think he must hit like a brick house. I think he's going to be hard to kill.
The two-handed sword has become more of the issue here. But dungeons and dragons has at least two classes built to use such a weapon: Fighter (a defender that can wear the heaviest armor), and Barbarian (a striker who is limited to lighter armor).
3 - require that the class do " damage beta " is not , in any way , dishonesty . I like the aesthetic of the game / gwf , but if both insisted on was that by studying the possibilities of the class , I realized I had a huge potential but poorly explored damage / control / survival . The rules of the game - never winter ONLINE - changed ; any discontent is legitimate .
There is a legitimate point where developers say that the game and it's mechanics are about where they want it to be. This is when they officially launch the game. Beta, on the other hand, is a part of development and testing. Before the game is finished. Where developers are *supposed* to find the vast majority of exploits and problematic issues and correct them. They corrected GWF during Beta.
GWF is generally built, right now, to allow a player to explore mobility / control / survival. Those three being our strongest points. I would happily see a class that explores damage / mobility / survival, personally. But that's for another topic.
4 - if you ask me , I think legitimate of me to want to do everything I did before, and much more . Given the immense unpopularity of the class , I must admit that most of the players are dumb , and therefore deserve to be below those that are more ambitious .
As it is legitimate that tene users will want their abilities back after it is patched. As it is legitimate for CW's to want to be able to do what they could with the High Vizier set. As it is legitimate for dungeon runners to want to be able to glitch walls that they could glitch at one time and allow them to skip dungeons.
It's a legitimate want. But it may not be the best thing for the game. Best for us, maybe. Like listening to a Control Wizard (a controller role, not striker) defend how he should be able to do as much damage as a Trickster Rogue (very much a striker class) because he's a wizard.
We ALL want to be overpowered and the favored class. But that's not best for the game.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
If you have one point that we will not agree, mainly by ignoring the constant association of the name "berserk" in the gwf never winter ONLINE - not rpg table, the ONLINE - is that you confuse "bugs" with what the classes had indeed to offer.
A bug was use crescendo+ slam. to interrupt the spinnig strike to remain immortal I take into consideration. Ap build, taking high damage, etc., is no bug, that's what the class had to offer. Player's job, and a few say in passing.
But I forget ALL THIS, if you but once, not insist on differentiating honest from dishonest players.
If you have one point that we will not agree, mainly by ignoring the constant association of the name "berserk" in the gwf never winter ONLINE - not rpg table, the ONLINE - is that you confuse "bugs" with what the classes had indeed to offer.
A bug was use crescendo+ slam. to interrupt the spinnig strike to remain immortal I take into consideration. Ap build, taking high damage, etc., is no bug, that's what the class had to offer. Player's job, and a few say in passing.
But I forget ALL THIS, if you but once, not insist on differentiating honest from dishonest players.
First, language issue.
"Berserk" is translating incorrectly. It isn't "Berserk" in english. It is a different word, that means "unable to be stopped." This differ's from "berserk", which means "violently crazy and unable to tell friend from foe". "Berserk" is commonly used in games where melee classes get super strong and do super damage. That is not what is attached to GWF's in English. Obviously this is causing us both confusion.
Secondly, I am not differentiating "intended gameplay" from "unintended gameplay". Unintended gameplay could mean obvious bugs and exploits, like you mentioned. It could also mean classes having capabilities, such as awesome damage output, that the developers didn't mean to put in there. I feel that not only where the glitches unintended, but so was the amazing damage.
A case in point: developers nerfed slams damage output. Slam was an amazing daily which allowed us to not only launch a powerful attack and interrupt, but unlike any other daily, allowed us to go back to using at-wills and encounters immediately. It was the most damage-capable daily because it was essentially another powerful AOE encounter that had a long timer.
They have since brought slam's capabilities of doing damage down to a point where, even if you follow it up with a full encounter combo, you don't necessarily do more damage than any other daily. They levelized it, OBVIOUSLY with the intent to reduce it's combo effect, and to bring it's capable damage output over time in line with our other dailies (which means, awfully low).
As far as your final point, I don't see where I'm calling a player dishonest. I'm even stating that I understand that they are entitled to their opinion of the class. I'm merely pointing out the facts as I observe them. I'm pointing out the history of the classes changes in NWO. I'm pointing out the background of the class in the paper and pen version that the game is based loosely on. And I'm pointing out the observable capabilities of the class as it currently stands.
To me, quantifiable and collected data support my argument, that fighters are defenders above any other function. Other player's opinions, and my opinions, are equally viable. But I took it a step further to back up my opinion with as much data as I can.
This isn't me telling anyone else they are a liar. This isn't even me telling anyone else they are wrong. This is me telling you what I think, and why I think it. Take that for what it's worth.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
did not know. The concept of the nwo / game practice it could be supposed that it was the berserk crazy killer . Sites / game / a description of the destroyer. It seemed possible that this was the correct interpretation and that she was just nerf to create balance in pvp. And to be honest, it seems that this "word game" is nothing more than a way to justify this nerf.
But I recognize, you are right at this point although I do not agree with this way to the game, and particularly not find fair.
About honesty and dishonesty, you mentioned three types of players and defined who, being the most ignorant, would be the most honest, as the reason for discontent was the mere desire for power and undeserved.
"The Destroyer is a torrent of unfettered rage and anger that deals a crushing amount of damage no foe is likely to survive." This description is by the devs, reality may be otherwise.
I think the very statement saying that this is a description of the devs and that can not be true, shows that the intention of this class was, however, it was poorly built.
and indeed it was found that the player in the game, with an immense challenge to honor what it was supposed to do.
"The Destroyer is a torrent of unfettered rage and anger that deals a crushing amount of damage no foe is likely to survive." This description is by the devs, reality may be otherwise.
I think the very statement saying that this is a description of the devs and that can not be true, shows that the intention of this class was, however, it was poorly built.
and indeed it was found that the player in the game, with an immense challenge to honor what it was supposed to do.
In all seriousness, it may be that the devs feel it does "a crushing amount of damage no foe can survive." Who knows. I know that a GWF that spec's all heroic feats into damage, maxes dexterity and strength, and properly stacks his destroyer feats with the appropriate encounters and class features, CAN do a solid amount of damage.
As a class, however, that destroyer is STILL tougher than the TR, even if he can't do quite that amount of damage. A paragon path feat can only push the class in one direction or another. It doesn't change the class entirely from what it originally is.
On an aside, I do believe that paragon features should be an open set of options just like heroic. Instead of trying to push players into sub-classes of classes, let us pick and choose and mix and match as we wish. Remove the Destroyer, Instigator and Sentinel paths, leave the capstones and only allow the player to choose ONE capstone, but otherwise, have it so each player has to choose five ranks from the first row (Unstoppable Recover, Fleet Footed, Great Weapon Focus, Deep Gash, Student of the Sword, and Scale Agility), five ranks from the second row, five from the third, and five from the forth to reach one of the three possible capstones.
I have a feeling that this separating of classes into further sub-classes is doing more to harm the game than help, since each class seems to have one, if not two, paragon paths that simply don't work sync well.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
This is the point . There is, perhaps, the destroyer could be a " torrent of fury ," the destroyer WAS a torrent of fury ( as designed ) . Everything depended on you to understand the "secret " :
Let's look at a good but ordinary destroyer 100 % in times of beta :
*The subject of critical high and low recovery could reduce cowndow 3 encounters - two builders ap - and use the slam , that in addition to powerful, provided 25% more power with the right feat . Slam +25 % power + critical + bleed = The Destroyer is a torrent of rage and anger unfettered que deals the crushing amount of damage on foe is Likely to Survive . "
The key 100 % destroyer was simple but effective synergy between slam / roar ( or any ap builder ) / bleed . All builds were simply adaptations of this mechanical ... which by the way matches the idea " insane killer " and complies with the words THE DEVELOPERS OWN .
Where I'm going , and I can not be clearer than that , it was not our misunderstanding about the original class , was NEVER WINTER ONLINE that led us astray and then simply changed the rules of the game in favor of "balance " in pvp , ignoring our need in pve .
That is the key of the revolt , the topic , the entire protest . Two weights , two measures .
Basically today what you can do is create a "rogue alternative" sacrificing ALL your feature tank in heroic feats - as you pointed out and others have done - or you create a "heavy aoe" / generator threat ... against 5 enemies, which is my case.
So there could be a compromise between both, but "torrent of fury", itself, no. The ideal was LOST.
As I have said a thousand times, I would not mind if, in return for this limitation, had facilitated the understanding of the class FOR ALL / created some smart function.
But it is not what is happening ... Now began to worsen cw, which in my opinion is a little late ...
This is the point . There is, perhaps, the destroyer could be a " torrent of fury ," the destroyer WAS a torrent of fury ( as designed ) . Everything depended on you to understand the "secret " :
Let's look at a good but ordinary destroyer 100 % in times of beta :
*The subject of critical high and low recovery could reduce cowndow 3 encounters - two builders ap - and use the slam , that in addition to powerful, provided 25% more power with the right feat . Slam +25 % power + critical + bleed = The Destroyer is a torrent of rage and anger unfettered que deals the crushing amount of damage on foe is Likely to Survive . "
The key 100 % destroyer was simple but effective synergy between slam / roar ( or any ap builder ) / bleed . All builds were simply adaptations of this mechanical ... which by the way matches the idea " insane killer " and complies with the words THE DEVELOPERS OWN .
Where I'm going , and I can not be clearer than that , it was not our misunderstanding about the original class , was NEVER WINTER ONLINE that led us astray and then simply changed the rules of the game in favor of "balance " in pvp , ignoring our need in pve .
That is the key of the revolt , the topic , the entire protest . Two weights , two measures .
You are arguing that you were misled in Beta.
Beta wasn't the game. It was testing before the game went live. It's like eating the ingredients to a cake before the cake is finished and cooked, and getting mad at he chef when his cake doesn't taste like his ingredients.
You're also saying that Destroyer's whole purpose was made by ONE combo. Which I do not deny at all! But that in itself shows a huge problem. No class, or sub-class even, should only have one combo that players can use or else they fail. Synergy is an important issue, but from a development standpoint, they could either buff all the other potential combo's to be on line with Roar/Slam, or nerf Roar/Slam.
That of course is why they open beta phases in games. Bring a lot of players in, test what they do, and see what's WRONG. And fix it.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Basically today what you can do is create a "rogue alternative" sacrificing ALL your feature tank in heroic feats - as you pointed out and others have done - or you create a "heavy aoe" / generator threat ... against 5 enemies, which is my case.
So there could be a compromise between both, but "torrent of fury", itself, no. The ideal was LOST.
As I have said a thousand times, I would not mind if, in return for this limitation, had facilitated the understanding of the class FOR ALL / created some smart function.
But it is not what is happening ... Now began to worsen cw, which in my opinion is a little late ...
I'm going to have to catch up on what's happening in preview. I've heard that GF's were getting their block nerfed to limit how many targets attacks it can block at once, and now CW's are getting nerfed. I guess I need to gather more info.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Beta wasn't the game. It was testing before the game went live. It's like eating the ingredients to a cake before the cake is finished and cooked, and getting mad at he chef when his cake doesn't taste like his ingredients.
I am only buying your argument since you did not specify eating batter or dough. Because cake batter and cookie dough are delicious!
In all seriousness though, that's a bit too reductionist and a lot more like Alpha than Beta testing if not QA. By the time a game is in Beta it is a lot more about bugs and specific gameplay issues. There have been some very significant class changes from Beta and quite a few in the Beta weekends. Having played since that time it seems to me that some of the "fixes" were intended to weaken classes so that "core" game mechanics (endless adds in boss fights) would not be affected.
I'm going to have to catch up on what's happening in preview. I've heard that GF's were getting their block nerfed to limit how many targets attacks it can block at once, and now CW's are getting nerfed. I guess I need to gather more info.
1 - I agree that is bad only be a "combo " . A secret for more " op " that is . What a reasonable player expect? This mechanical " op " gives rise to several others, which are more modest in order to create dilemmas .
What "never winter" has given us? Nothing.
Every complaint is legitimate
2 - difference in beta / alpha : beta at the time of the game was not yet a business? The " gwf player" did not invest their time / money based on the concept that the class brought , signed by the developers ? Allure / cat are transferable ? Was given an option of " reincarnation " , as they did this in ddo ? ( the "argument 1 " foresee any objection relating to " redistribution of points) .
Every complaint is legitimate .
3 - between the beta and alpha , what REAL role we were given ? There was a specific care for our class in pve proportional to that made for the cw in pvp ? It is not true that we have here two weights / two measures ?
Every complaint is legitimate
4 - and more important. I see other classes began receiving penalties ( until late ) . But from what I hear also , other classes are being created to replace those who are so worn ... new allures come, new cats , new perfect enchants...
Hopefully , by then , have a topic of protest in " general discussion " . I await my ranger , but also a concrete role for my gwf .
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
I do accept that others don't feel the same way I currently feel. But I have to ask, once more:
What is it about a Great Weapon Fighter, be it the classes current mechanics or capabilities, that makes it a damage dealer?
Some players feel that we should be damage dealers because there is a fighter with a shield! But then you try to point to source material and remind them that Dungeons and Dragons is famous for redundant classes. You know that, as classes are added, more redundancy will be added and all the current 'niche' roles will be gone.
Other players feel that we should be damage dealers because we have a big sword! But then you try and point out that we also can wear plate mail armor, the heaviest in the IP. We wear much of the exact same armor as Guardian Fighters, minus the shield.
Some players feel that, because of how we ranked on the damage scoreboard in beta, that we should become damage dealers again! These same individuals dislike you for reminding them that beta is a testing phase, and that there were many unintended exploits (the devs own statements) that allowed GWF to get that high, and that we weren't intended to be that powerful.
Still others say that we have to be damage dealers because they want it! I respect these players more. They are the most honest. So I'm now pushing that they should fight this hard to have a new class, call it a 'Barbarian', added to the game.
To your other comments: I have many solid GWF friends who are very capable and actually play their class. Right now, at this time, instead of sidelining it because it doesn't fit them after beta.
I disagree with your opinion of our dailies, almost entirely. I do support bringing our daily damage up a bit more, but when you start the statement that SLAM is the only good daily? Not winning the point. Because Crescendo's fast acting and long reaching stun doesn't make it an extremely capable single-target and PvP daily. AoS is weak, but nothing clears that position in GG pvp faster, and it's completely immune to all damage and cc while lit. I'm running out of time here.
My whole argument centers on a few points: you no longer play the class cause you can't get into CN and you don't like that it's underpowered. Your opinion is that the class is generally bad, mainly because you can't generate as much damage as you used to.
I can only assume that your 'best of the best' GWF claim was because it was Beta. At which point, don't you realize that your arguing for mechanics that made the class op and broken to begin with? Maybe you liked the exploits, maybe it suited you. But the class doesn't now.
This does not mean, however, that the class now is broken and useless. Just that you can't play it as well as you used to. I can assure you, I play it perfectly well, as do many others. We do have wants and requests. But it's not for what beta was.
I was never an end game GWF during Beta I payed all classes during the testing
I was end game GWF before and after the temp HP buff to Unstoppable. So In times when the GWF was both far weaker than it is now and far stronger
The class is bad because it serves no purpose in PvE that cannot be performed by another class. Not because I can't do as much damage as I used to, I never played a pure DPS GWF in the first place, this of course hurt my reputation when other players would look at my spec and hybrid type gear. Fighting Hard and I mean very hard for a role in a group, trying for over an hour to get a group during DD and not getting one because your a GWF is not my idea of fun. I dont play it anymore because I want to feel important in a group. When I had a guild I had that, guild crumbled and you dont have it. For me to play again the player community would have to have a higher expectation of GWF so I can just simply log in and play like members of other classes can.
I have to counter your questions with another.
What is it about GWF that makes it a tank? talking about it's In game powers and abilities nothing about what it was in pen and paper. The GWF can spec "tank" but they have no inherit threat moves. And no defense moves that are better than a TR's.
And to answer your question about damage dealing.
My answer is nothing. There is nothing significant about GWF powers or abilities that make it a damage dealer above any other class. And I am including DC in this.
And as for being a tank the answer is also Nothing. GWF do not have the threat to tank for a CW or a TR. These two classes deal more damage than the GWF in there respective areas so mobs want to kill them first before the GWF plain and simple
What is it about GWF that makes it a tank? talking about it's In game powers and abilities nothing about what it was in pen and paper. The GWF can spec "tank" but they have no inherit threat moves. And no defense moves that are better than a TR's.
And to answer your question about damage dealing.
My answer is nothing. There is nothing significant about GWF powers or abilities that make it a damage dealer above any other class. And I am including DC in this.
And as for being a tank the answer is also Nothing. GWF do not have the threat to tank for a CW or a TR. These two classes deal more damage than the GWF in there respective areas so mobs want to kill them first before the GWF plain and simple
What makes the class a tank?
- Constitution and Dexterity, our two secondary attributes, provide large bonuses to resists, HP, and deflect.
- We are capable of boosting constitution even more with simple heroic feats. Counting that feat, a total of five feats directly improve our defenses and effective HP in heroic, including feats that specifically aim to improve our Armor Class and Defense.
- We wear platemail armor, which (along with GF) has some of the highest defense and deflect values in the game.
- Unlike any other class outside of GF, we have three feats that produce additional threat across five different powers (that is their intent, even though I believe we all know that even with those feats our threat generation is poor).
- Unstoppable, our class ability, includes two functions which raises our effective HP with a temp hp boost, and raises our defenses with a 25-50% DR boost.
- There are eight total paragon feats dedicated to improving our defenses and EHP.
Along with these attributes, we have several anti-CC and anti-damage powers.
- Mighty Leap is a dodge during the jump.
- Sprint is immune to slow's and immobilizes.
- Unstoppalbe makes us completely CC immune for 5-8 seconds.
- The Class Feature Bravery increases deflect.
- The power Daring Shout increases our DR according to the enemies hit.
- The class feature Steel Defense makes us immune for 3-5 seconds while we are doing dailies.
- The daily Avalanche of Steel is immune to all CC and damage while active (long animation, five seconds).
- The daily Crescendo is immune to all CC while active.
- The class feature Steel Grace helps further mitigate CC (yeah, this feature generally sucks, we know).
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Stepping out of the batter's box of useless information, let's look at what GWF can do: almost everything.
Right now, there are five classes, and four roles: striker, controller, leader and defender. An ideal party includes one of each, at least.
Our striker (primary single target damage dealer) is the TR. Very good at his job. Poor GWF can set himself up to do good damage, but can't quite come close to what a TR can do on a single target.
Our controller (aoe damage and cc) is the CW. **** good. Poor GWF can hit AOE and can even CC a bit, but nothing as good as the CW can.
Our leader (heals and buffs) is the DC. We all know the GWF isn't healing or buffing anyone else, but sans a DC, he can keep his own self alive.
Our defender (taking damage and controlling mobs attention) is the GF. Oh, GWF can do the first part as well as him, but definitely not keep the mobs.
Well, that's a tell all and agreement to your point, isnt' it? We don't do anything as well. But it leads me to wonder: what are we going to do with Archers when they come out? Archer Rangers are probably going to be single-target hitters and controllers. Are they going to have to do more damage than the TR to be useful?
Do they have to be the only class in the role to be used?
My thought is as new classes get added, this feeling of 'GWF uselessness' is going to abate. Because each class will share it's role with several others. I doubt AR's will be able to sit on the boss like a TR can, but they'll probably be alot better at kiting them around the battlefield to stay relatively safe. Two means to the same approach. If they don't have the ability to break aggro like a TR can, though, they'll have a hard time replacing TR's as the boss slayer, since if they do get 'caught up to' or run through an add or whatnot, their weaker defenses are going to make them extremely vulnerable, whereas a TR can avoid that situation with a simple stealth.
Scourge Warlock. Ouch. Another striker! Debuff, too. In those times where players are taking the CW to work more on the boss than the adds, the warlock will be the better approach. Well, hell, won't he be stepping on the toes of the Archer Ranger? Ahh, those single-target debuffs are going to really help the party.
My point, is that filling the party won't be as cut and dry as it currently is. While I happily stand behind you guys that GWF could get some better threat management (it would help us fit in a little better, after all), I don't think the class is useless if it's not on top of the damage charts.
I think the min-max crew that take ideal members for each dungeon will continue to do so. The rest of us will pick and choose our options amongst what's available, like we already do. If it comes down to two archer rangers, a rogue, a GWF and a DC, I'm sure the dungeon will still do fine.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I think the min-max crew that take ideal members for each dungeon will continue to do so. The rest of us will pick and choose our options amongst what's available, like we already do. If it comes down to two archer rangers, a rogue, a GWF and a DC, I'm sure the dungeon will still do fine.
A GWF is not a tank because he cannot replace a GF in it's tanking role. Try to have a GWF kite mobs in FH or Karr. You would think there run speed and mobility would make them good at this but no. To kite you need to make threat without getting too close to the 15 guys trying to kill you or you get hit 15 times. GF's have several powers to make threat at range. GWF have only slam that is good for kiting and does not make enough threat or let you target what mobs you want to pick up.
So yeah some dungeons will require certain classes or class combination, but never will that requirement be a GWF. Parties that say we need a GF or a GWF isn't looking for a tank they want a melee. Those are the groups I can use my GF in full DPS gear and show up most any other GWF they could of gotten.
A GWF is not a tank because he cannot replace a GF in it's tanking role. Try to have a GWF kite mobs in FH or Karr. You would think there run speed and mobility would make them good at this but no. To kite you need to make threat without getting too close to the 15 guys trying to kill you or you get hit 15 times. GF's have several powers to make threat at range. GWF have only slam that is good for kiting and does not make enough threat or let you target what mobs you want to pick up.
So yeah some dungeons will require certain classes or class combination, but never will that requirement be a GWF. Parties that say we need a GF or a GWF isn't looking for a tank they want a melee. Those are the groups I can use my GF in full DPS gear and show up most any other GWF they could of gotten.
I have done the kite in FH. I can still get close and using daring shout to pull them in. I just can't do it while a GF is doing what he does, or the healer stands too close to the mobs. It's all situational.
Yes, GF's are better setup for mob aggro. And GWF's could really use more threat generating options.
But it's not about the REQUIREMENT. Honestly, as I've proven more than once, no dungeon requires any other class. Five man GWF parties can run any dungeon in the game.
Now I'll agree that, in current dungeon design, the defenders don't get alot of support because the maps are too large and open.
As far as how good your GF is ... you're obviously playing with the wrong GWF's.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
No I'm not just playing with the wrong GWF's I know plenty of good GWF's one that is every bit my equal in GWF skill. We literally play shoulder to shoulder swarming through PK as GWF and only differ + or - about 100k damage. But I play pug groups as well, I like to just grab a group and go and as a GF I can do that. GWF can't So I play with alot of different players. I see the pug CW's that will triple the damage of the Other CW in the group. I get the occasional TR that keeps up with my GF's damage in MC. Those guys are scary good as I know they are pure Single target and I hit an average of 3 mobs per cleave with CW support that is. So they are like double or triple my DPS. If I use purely single target DPS as a GF in a party group my damage drops by about 20%. You do this as a GWF your damage will drop by 50%. Could you ever imagine playing GWF and not using WMS, Wicked Strike or Reaping Strike. Sure Strike is terrible and it is the first sign of a bad GF. When I am cleaving three mobs I see a GWF run in and use sure strike.. I dont even have to open the Paingiven score bored to know he is bottom DPS.
But to assume that with my vast experience with all classes playing with all different groups of people from pugs to guildies and those few super guildies in rank 9's10, with perfect everything. You assume because I have a poor view of GWF's that I am both a Poor GWF and only play with poor GWF's.
Then isnt that true about 90% of the player base? That good GWF's are so few is the reason why the class has a terrible reputation and You think that has nothing to do with the class? But the players that play it? And you intend to educate a very small portion of the players in hopes that GWF players will get better and thier reputation will improve. Thats just not going to happen your words will never reach the new players of GWF that think hey this class is cool with big swords growing large runnign in and smashing stuff and not realize how incredibly terrible sure strike is. But they keep using it simply because it is there first move and maybe even some reaping strike as well.
Why dont you get on the bad wagon of hey the GWF needs to be buffed, other then hey I would like a buff but I dont really need one we are pretty fine as is. That is kinda how I feel about the GF, GF can be improved to make the class more versatile with more other viable options other than DPS smash tank I make threat cause I do lots of damage. I'd love to see protector spec GF's be more viable in full prot gear. Right now, even protector spec GF's should be using DPS gear for threat. When I see a GF with 6k Defense I cringe as they wont keep threat off my GWF or CW. And my GWF is pure DPS, he is kinda squishy when Unstoppable is down.
But hey how can I hope for those little changes and improvements to this game to make things more fun for all who play my main when I see the GWF fall so far behind my class it's not even funny. Even I boycott GWF's I know are bad, and I only ever grab a Pug GWF when I'm making a group if my other memebers I know are good enough to handle a dungoen. I feel I am being kind to a GWF to permit him into my MC groups for a chance at his off hand. I know alot of CW's that can solo Interupt all of Val's attacks including my CW and only a few GWF's including my GWF who can handle it as a duo. Never as a Solo.
The fact is most players in the game see GWF as the underdog class, but most players will not admit it. I will and you will just have to live with it because you can never change my mind until you play the other classes and see how they really compare to the GWF.
The fact is most players in the game see GWF as the underdog class, but most players will not admit it. I will and you will just have to live with it because you can never change my mind until you play the other classes and see how they really compare to the GWF.
I don't see us as the underdog class. I see us as a perfectly valid class with bad advertising. I don't see mechanics in any way (outside of threat) holding us back. I see preconceived opinions spread by players who either don't like how the class plays, don't like how the class runs over them in PvP, don't like that the class isn't as overpowered and broken as it was in Beta, or are simply repeating what other players have told them because they don't really know what they are talking about.
No, I don't know your experiences. You could very easily be making them all up, and so could I and everyone else here. But how do I justify the fact that my experiences (which are not made up, and are my own) and your experiences don't mix?
More than one player has partied with me, asking me why I play a class that's underpowered and broken. After our dungeon or skirmish run, they are asking me why so many other GWF's can't do what I do.
Is this arrogance?
All I'm saying, is that from where I'm standing, the "facts" and "numbers" you've quoted me about GWF are way off. You've said our damage numbers were far below what I personally experience. You've said our powers and features didn't do many of the common things I use them for.
I cannot play GF. I've tried more than once, and shortly, will try again. Something about the way the class works, be it the slow plodding steps, the block button, what ... I don't know. But something doesn't sync with me. Instead of me saying that this class is broken, I've taken the very few players I've seen who play it well (I still generally thrash them with my GWF), and let them represent their class instead of me. You don't see me posting GF posts.
Since I can look upon my own self (and I can easily play, if not enjoy, any other class outside of GF), and see that I have weaknesses in a class that make it hard for me to accurately judge it, do you not think that I would look at someone like yourself, Cyan, who tells me all the things wrong with my class that I've never experienced, as maybe having the same issues?
I do know this: since I consider false advertising to be the biggest threat to GWF and their acceptance into groups, it's my primary concern and mission both here on the forums and in-game. I won't just argue with someone if they make a great point, but if they make a general statement about how bad GWF are, I chime in.
I know I've increased the opinion of me class with many players, and inspired a few to make an alt as a GWF. So I feel confident I'm doing well.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Comments
@kolatmaster
Due to not having a regular group and the reputation the class has, I've avoided doing much more than skirmishes with mine. She's a destroyer but I rarely go after the boss. In the latest CTA for instance, I usually tried to hunt down the Summoners, Hellfire Magi and Blazing Skeletons to cutdown the AOE spam. There was usually enough rogues and wizards to go around and most of those groups just wanted to zerg the biggest thing on the field, anyway.
The only ability I've seen that works outside of combat is the CW's lighting strike ability that they can fire outside of combat. I know I'm not too friendly towards CW's, but if GWF's had this kind of thing, I'd definitely be cycling it between mobs to get more AP.
As per the issue of going after other mobs: if your boss is taken care of, and there's no communication, go for the minors.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
This is the only known ability to generate AP....'reliably'.
It happens bud, no worries... Just wanted to point out my thoughts to good sir Vortix44, hope he/she learned a bit! :cool:
That is not a bad idea given the circumstances, as you recognized your 'teams' preferences. However when I ran the CtA Skirmish, on Dakkon Blackblade, I would focused the boss. I would, of course, angle my attacks and positioning to maximize hitting baddies with my AoE attacks (WMS specifically), but my main focus always was the boss. He moved around a lot, particularly with his teleport back to original point after his giant AoE.
Just saying kudos for recognizing your teams 'preference' (I'd say deficiencies in relations to the CWs wanting to focus the boss though!) and adjusting your role accordingly!
As a Destro spec your better focused on the boss, or specific big adds, but as PandaPaul's thread states Destro is very capable of taking on many roles. Though the role you took on in your example is best done by an Instigator spec.
Cyan, do not claim stats on moves that only come from super high gear. I have done GWF comparisons in base stats to other classes too. However I equipped them only with a Delzoon weapon and no other gear so I can see the base Rank 3 stats of each move unmodified by anything else. And Yes the GWF greatly suffers in this area. But not as much as you might think as a GF your numbers are higher from GF Conquerer power stacking. a GWF crit is not reflected in these numbers.
Sylvia. You come across as a very ignorant player. Even though I suspect English is not your first language. You claim people are not reading your posts but you are so obviously not reading theirs. Especially when other players are confirming some posts made by cyan. You also don't have any understanding on why GWF's powers are looked down upon, without that knowledge you cannot say where they are useful. My opinion is the GWF dailies are so Bad that the only useful one is slam because it is the only one that doesnt stop you from using AT-will for 4-5 seconds at a time and overall losing damage because of it. GWF dailies are very
situational. Spinning Strike is only good in a group of 5 or more tough mobs that wont die before you deal the moves full damage. Avalanche of Steel is a terrible move as it removes the GWF completely from the fight for 4 seconds while you charge a move that is only about as good as the CW Avalanche encounter. An encounter that has all the CC of the GWF daily, most of the damage and does not commit the CW from doing nothing else but this move. It also has the added effect of dealing more damage if left to detonate on its own for about 4-5 seconds where the CW is freely using all his other moves. And no I dont need to post screen shots for making this kind of statement anyone that has watched CW use this move knows it's effectiveness.
Goldheart starting any post by quoting another poster and saying Bla, bla bla will only lead to flames. It's not cool. But you are right to have the point that you see GWF's as damage dealers. So do most players in the game, when a GWF is invited to a party they are expected to deal damage. As no one sees any other uses for them as they have the least utility of the 5 classes. But GWF dont deal signficantly more damage than any of the other classes. All classes are steamlined in damage. No one is more significant than the other. But some show off better in specific situations. TR is soley Single target, while GWF is soley AOE. They are damage dealers that are complete oposite of each other. The problem is single target DPS is essential for boss fights and I see no reason why GWF single target powers fall behind all the other classes single target powers. Only DC doesnt have a host of good single target strikes, but there AOE is awesome and alot better than GWF's encounters. And above all understand that the poeple here posting want positive change in the game, even if you dont care about the game and can ditch it at any point.
Lobo you can preach all you want about 4th edition Pen and paper, but you have to accept that other players will have vastly different views than you in regards to the GWF. Mainly because the class is poorly built with no specific role people try to make it do things that it just can't do, like threat tank or single target DPS. Finding a defining role is the best thing for the class. But to make eveyrone happy for GWF to be a Tank or Defender it needs to be a defender that deals more damage than the GF it needs to be the offensive tank and this will make the damage dealers happy as well. And then you knock Vortix for having an opinion that GF is better than a GWF so he must obviously be a Bad GWF player.... Well I agree with him and I am or at least was the best of the best GWF when I played it. But after seeing other classes and losing my guild and the players that would take me to CN I gave it up just was not in me to keep fighting for the dying class if it meant fighting for CN spots in a new guild and have to prove myself all over again.
If you guys want positive change keep things civil or just join me on the sidelines and check in every couple weeks for some banter and to catch up on the news. Because if any changes are going to be made it will be a long long wait.
This "absence of 4 sec" the gwf is exactly the advantage of daily cases where you need to take care of himself Horde / is almost dying.
Taking into account the instigator, this duplicity of the technique is even more evident. Remember we still have a feat that give the daily features of "slam".
Assuming these conditions, it understands the "why" of punishing charge.
think even at the time of the beta, where we built ap fast. was perfectly plausible that 3 gwf focusing on recobery "take turns" in avalanch of steel, creating "infinites combos " better than 3 cw turns the singularity.
Our great evil, you well know, is that usually the unpopularity of gwf makes other players do not take into account our powers in some "general plan". not even we usually take our powers into account in general plans.
I do accept that others don't feel the same way I currently feel. But I have to ask, once more:
What is it about a Great Weapon Fighter, be it the classes current mechanics or capabilities, that makes it a damage dealer?
Some players feel that we should be damage dealers because there is a fighter with a shield! But then you try to point to source material and remind them that Dungeons and Dragons is famous for redundant classes. You know that, as classes are added, more redundancy will be added and all the current 'niche' roles will be gone.
Other players feel that we should be damage dealers because we have a big sword! But then you try and point out that we also can wear plate mail armor, the heaviest in the IP. We wear much of the exact same armor as Guardian Fighters, minus the shield.
Some players feel that, because of how we ranked on the damage scoreboard in beta, that we should become damage dealers again! These same individuals dislike you for reminding them that beta is a testing phase, and that there were many unintended exploits (the devs own statements) that allowed GWF to get that high, and that we weren't intended to be that powerful.
Still others say that we have to be damage dealers because they want it! I respect these players more. They are the most honest. So I'm now pushing that they should fight this hard to have a new class, call it a 'Barbarian', added to the game.
To your other comments: I have many solid GWF friends who are very capable and actually play their class. Right now, at this time, instead of sidelining it because it doesn't fit them after beta.
I disagree with your opinion of our dailies, almost entirely. I do support bringing our daily damage up a bit more, but when you start the statement that SLAM is the only good daily? Not winning the point. Because Crescendo's fast acting and long reaching stun doesn't make it an extremely capable single-target and PvP daily. AoS is weak, but nothing clears that position in GG pvp faster, and it's completely immune to all damage and cc while lit. I'm running out of time here.
My whole argument centers on a few points: you no longer play the class cause you can't get into CN and you don't like that it's underpowered. Your opinion is that the class is generally bad, mainly because you can't generate as much damage as you used to.
I can only assume that your 'best of the best' GWF claim was because it was Beta. At which point, don't you realize that your arguing for mechanics that made the class op and broken to begin with? Maybe you liked the exploits, maybe it suited you. But the class doesn't now.
This does not mean, however, that the class now is broken and useless. Just that you can't play it as well as you used to. I can assure you, I play it perfectly well, as do many others. We do have wants and requests. But it's not for what beta was.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
1 - I do not know for sure, but there is a legitimate cw take much damage according to the " canon " ? two weights and two measures ?
2 - I am not a big fan of rpgs " table " , but the name " berserk " , present in several of our armor , not allude to the idea of big damages ? The description of the destroyer then it is even more categorical . What seems more obvious according to his account is that the sentinel is more faithful to the original purpose of gwf
3 - require that the class do " damage beta " is not , in any way , dishonesty . I like the aesthetic of the game / gwf , but if both insisted on was that by studying the possibilities of the class , I realized I had a huge potential but poorly explored damage / control / survival . The rules of the game - never winter ONLINE - changed ; any discontent is legitimate .
4 - if you ask me , I think legitimate of me to want to do everything I did before, and much more . Given the immense unpopularity of the class , I must admit that most of the players are dumb , and therefore deserve to be below those that are more ambitious .
Wizards in general had very low HP. Good team organization was needed to keep them alive, though they had a few spells such as Barkskin which allowed them a last-minute defense against a few attacks. Their defense was mostly in their choice of location on the battlefield, and the heavier classes standing between them and the enemy.
I'm not sure what the translation is in other languages, but in English, there is no reference to a "Berserk" in anything the GWF does. "Unstoppable", on the other hand, is a reference to an encounter ability that Fighters have in 4e, that acts as a self heal.
As in most MMO's, Plate Armor is generally relegated to defensive classes. A Barbarian in chain-mail, much like a Viking, is a very different beast than a Great Weapon Fighter in plate, much like a Knight.
I don't think "heaviest armor imaginable", even sans shield, and think he must hit like a brick house. I think he's going to be hard to kill.
The two-handed sword has become more of the issue here. But dungeons and dragons has at least two classes built to use such a weapon: Fighter (a defender that can wear the heaviest armor), and Barbarian (a striker who is limited to lighter armor).
There is a legitimate point where developers say that the game and it's mechanics are about where they want it to be. This is when they officially launch the game. Beta, on the other hand, is a part of development and testing. Before the game is finished. Where developers are *supposed* to find the vast majority of exploits and problematic issues and correct them. They corrected GWF during Beta.
GWF is generally built, right now, to allow a player to explore mobility / control / survival. Those three being our strongest points. I would happily see a class that explores damage / mobility / survival, personally. But that's for another topic.
As it is legitimate that tene users will want their abilities back after it is patched. As it is legitimate for CW's to want to be able to do what they could with the High Vizier set. As it is legitimate for dungeon runners to want to be able to glitch walls that they could glitch at one time and allow them to skip dungeons.
It's a legitimate want. But it may not be the best thing for the game. Best for us, maybe. Like listening to a Control Wizard (a controller role, not striker) defend how he should be able to do as much damage as a Trickster Rogue (very much a striker class) because he's a wizard.
We ALL want to be overpowered and the favored class. But that's not best for the game.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
A bug was use crescendo+ slam. to interrupt the spinnig strike to remain immortal I take into consideration. Ap build, taking high damage, etc., is no bug, that's what the class had to offer. Player's job, and a few say in passing.
But I forget ALL THIS, if you but once, not insist on differentiating honest from dishonest players.
First, language issue.
"Berserk" is translating incorrectly. It isn't "Berserk" in english. It is a different word, that means "unable to be stopped." This differ's from "berserk", which means "violently crazy and unable to tell friend from foe". "Berserk" is commonly used in games where melee classes get super strong and do super damage. That is not what is attached to GWF's in English. Obviously this is causing us both confusion.
Secondly, I am not differentiating "intended gameplay" from "unintended gameplay". Unintended gameplay could mean obvious bugs and exploits, like you mentioned. It could also mean classes having capabilities, such as awesome damage output, that the developers didn't mean to put in there. I feel that not only where the glitches unintended, but so was the amazing damage.
A case in point: developers nerfed slams damage output. Slam was an amazing daily which allowed us to not only launch a powerful attack and interrupt, but unlike any other daily, allowed us to go back to using at-wills and encounters immediately. It was the most damage-capable daily because it was essentially another powerful AOE encounter that had a long timer.
They have since brought slam's capabilities of doing damage down to a point where, even if you follow it up with a full encounter combo, you don't necessarily do more damage than any other daily. They levelized it, OBVIOUSLY with the intent to reduce it's combo effect, and to bring it's capable damage output over time in line with our other dailies (which means, awfully low).
As far as your final point, I don't see where I'm calling a player dishonest. I'm even stating that I understand that they are entitled to their opinion of the class. I'm merely pointing out the facts as I observe them. I'm pointing out the history of the classes changes in NWO. I'm pointing out the background of the class in the paper and pen version that the game is based loosely on. And I'm pointing out the observable capabilities of the class as it currently stands.
To me, quantifiable and collected data support my argument, that fighters are defenders above any other function. Other player's opinions, and my opinions, are equally viable. But I took it a step further to back up my opinion with as much data as I can.
This isn't me telling anyone else they are a liar. This isn't even me telling anyone else they are wrong. This is me telling you what I think, and why I think it. Take that for what it's worth.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
But I recognize, you are right at this point although I do not agree with this way to the game, and particularly not find fair.
About honesty and dishonesty, you mentioned three types of players and defined who, being the most ignorant, would be the most honest, as the reason for discontent was the mere desire for power and undeserved.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter
I think the very statement saying that this is a description of the devs and that can not be true, shows that the intention of this class was, however, it was poorly built.
and indeed it was found that the player in the game, with an immense challenge to honor what it was supposed to do.
In all seriousness, it may be that the devs feel it does "a crushing amount of damage no foe can survive." Who knows. I know that a GWF that spec's all heroic feats into damage, maxes dexterity and strength, and properly stacks his destroyer feats with the appropriate encounters and class features, CAN do a solid amount of damage.
As a class, however, that destroyer is STILL tougher than the TR, even if he can't do quite that amount of damage. A paragon path feat can only push the class in one direction or another. It doesn't change the class entirely from what it originally is.
On an aside, I do believe that paragon features should be an open set of options just like heroic. Instead of trying to push players into sub-classes of classes, let us pick and choose and mix and match as we wish. Remove the Destroyer, Instigator and Sentinel paths, leave the capstones and only allow the player to choose ONE capstone, but otherwise, have it so each player has to choose five ranks from the first row (Unstoppable Recover, Fleet Footed, Great Weapon Focus, Deep Gash, Student of the Sword, and Scale Agility), five ranks from the second row, five from the third, and five from the forth to reach one of the three possible capstones.
I have a feeling that this separating of classes into further sub-classes is doing more to harm the game than help, since each class seems to have one, if not two, paragon paths that simply don't work sync well.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Let's look at a good but ordinary destroyer 100 % in times of beta :
*The subject of critical high and low recovery could reduce cowndow 3 encounters - two builders ap - and use the slam , that in addition to powerful, provided 25% more power with the right feat . Slam +25 % power + critical + bleed = The Destroyer is a torrent of rage and anger unfettered que deals the crushing amount of damage on foe is Likely to Survive . "
The key 100 % destroyer was simple but effective synergy between slam / roar ( or any ap builder ) / bleed . All builds were simply adaptations of this mechanical ... which by the way matches the idea " insane killer " and complies with the words THE DEVELOPERS OWN .
Where I'm going , and I can not be clearer than that , it was not our misunderstanding about the original class , was NEVER WINTER ONLINE that led us astray and then simply changed the rules of the game in favor of "balance " in pvp , ignoring our need in pve .
That is the key of the revolt , the topic , the entire protest . Two weights , two measures .
So there could be a compromise between both, but "torrent of fury", itself, no. The ideal was LOST.
As I have said a thousand times, I would not mind if, in return for this limitation, had facilitated the understanding of the class FOR ALL / created some smart function.
But it is not what is happening ... Now began to worsen cw, which in my opinion is a little late ...
You are arguing that you were misled in Beta.
Beta wasn't the game. It was testing before the game went live. It's like eating the ingredients to a cake before the cake is finished and cooked, and getting mad at he chef when his cake doesn't taste like his ingredients.
You're also saying that Destroyer's whole purpose was made by ONE combo. Which I do not deny at all! But that in itself shows a huge problem. No class, or sub-class even, should only have one combo that players can use or else they fail. Synergy is an important issue, but from a development standpoint, they could either buff all the other potential combo's to be on line with Roar/Slam, or nerf Roar/Slam.
That of course is why they open beta phases in games. Bring a lot of players in, test what they do, and see what's WRONG. And fix it.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I'm going to have to catch up on what's happening in preview. I've heard that GF's were getting their block nerfed to limit how many targets attacks it can block at once, and now CW's are getting nerfed. I guess I need to gather more info.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I am only buying your argument since you did not specify eating batter or dough. Because cake batter and cookie dough are delicious!
In all seriousness though, that's a bit too reductionist and a lot more like Alpha than Beta testing if not QA. By the time a game is in Beta it is a lot more about bugs and specific gameplay issues. There have been some very significant class changes from Beta and quite a few in the Beta weekends. Having played since that time it seems to me that some of the "fixes" were intended to weaken classes so that "core" game mechanics (endless adds in boss fights) would not be affected.
Latest Preview patch notes are here: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?513671-NW-5-20131021a-2-Patch-Notes
1 - I agree that is bad only be a "combo " . A secret for more " op " that is . What a reasonable player expect? This mechanical " op " gives rise to several others, which are more modest in order to create dilemmas .
What "never winter" has given us? Nothing.
Every complaint is legitimate
2 - difference in beta / alpha : beta at the time of the game was not yet a business? The " gwf player" did not invest their time / money based on the concept that the class brought , signed by the developers ? Allure / cat are transferable ? Was given an option of " reincarnation " , as they did this in ddo ? ( the "argument 1 " foresee any objection relating to " redistribution of points) .
Every complaint is legitimate .
3 - between the beta and alpha , what REAL role we were given ? There was a specific care for our class in pve proportional to that made for the cw in pvp ? It is not true that we have here two weights / two measures ?
Every complaint is legitimate
4 - and more important. I see other classes began receiving penalties ( until late ) . But from what I hear also , other classes are being created to replace those who are so worn ... new allures come, new cats , new perfect enchants...
Hopefully , by then , have a topic of protest in " general discussion " . I await my ranger , but also a concrete role for my gwf .
I was never an end game GWF during Beta I payed all classes during the testing
I was end game GWF before and after the temp HP buff to Unstoppable. So In times when the GWF was both far weaker than it is now and far stronger
The class is bad because it serves no purpose in PvE that cannot be performed by another class. Not because I can't do as much damage as I used to, I never played a pure DPS GWF in the first place, this of course hurt my reputation when other players would look at my spec and hybrid type gear. Fighting Hard and I mean very hard for a role in a group, trying for over an hour to get a group during DD and not getting one because your a GWF is not my idea of fun. I dont play it anymore because I want to feel important in a group. When I had a guild I had that, guild crumbled and you dont have it. For me to play again the player community would have to have a higher expectation of GWF so I can just simply log in and play like members of other classes can.
I have to counter your questions with another.
What is it about GWF that makes it a tank? talking about it's In game powers and abilities nothing about what it was in pen and paper. The GWF can spec "tank" but they have no inherit threat moves. And no defense moves that are better than a TR's.
And to answer your question about damage dealing.
My answer is nothing. There is nothing significant about GWF powers or abilities that make it a damage dealer above any other class. And I am including DC in this.
And as for being a tank the answer is also Nothing. GWF do not have the threat to tank for a CW or a TR. These two classes deal more damage than the GWF in there respective areas so mobs want to kill them first before the GWF plain and simple
What makes the class a tank?
- Constitution and Dexterity, our two secondary attributes, provide large bonuses to resists, HP, and deflect.
- We are capable of boosting constitution even more with simple heroic feats. Counting that feat, a total of five feats directly improve our defenses and effective HP in heroic, including feats that specifically aim to improve our Armor Class and Defense.
- We wear platemail armor, which (along with GF) has some of the highest defense and deflect values in the game.
- Unlike any other class outside of GF, we have three feats that produce additional threat across five different powers (that is their intent, even though I believe we all know that even with those feats our threat generation is poor).
- Unstoppable, our class ability, includes two functions which raises our effective HP with a temp hp boost, and raises our defenses with a 25-50% DR boost.
- There are eight total paragon feats dedicated to improving our defenses and EHP.
Along with these attributes, we have several anti-CC and anti-damage powers.
- Mighty Leap is a dodge during the jump.
- Sprint is immune to slow's and immobilizes.
- Unstoppalbe makes us completely CC immune for 5-8 seconds.
- The Class Feature Bravery increases deflect.
- The power Daring Shout increases our DR according to the enemies hit.
- The class feature Steel Defense makes us immune for 3-5 seconds while we are doing dailies.
- The daily Avalanche of Steel is immune to all CC and damage while active (long animation, five seconds).
- The daily Crescendo is immune to all CC while active.
- The class feature Steel Grace helps further mitigate CC (yeah, this feature generally sucks, we know).
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Right now, there are five classes, and four roles: striker, controller, leader and defender. An ideal party includes one of each, at least.
Our striker (primary single target damage dealer) is the TR. Very good at his job. Poor GWF can set himself up to do good damage, but can't quite come close to what a TR can do on a single target.
Our controller (aoe damage and cc) is the CW. **** good. Poor GWF can hit AOE and can even CC a bit, but nothing as good as the CW can.
Our leader (heals and buffs) is the DC. We all know the GWF isn't healing or buffing anyone else, but sans a DC, he can keep his own self alive.
Our defender (taking damage and controlling mobs attention) is the GF. Oh, GWF can do the first part as well as him, but definitely not keep the mobs.
Well, that's a tell all and agreement to your point, isnt' it? We don't do anything as well. But it leads me to wonder: what are we going to do with Archers when they come out? Archer Rangers are probably going to be single-target hitters and controllers. Are they going to have to do more damage than the TR to be useful?
Do they have to be the only class in the role to be used?
My thought is as new classes get added, this feeling of 'GWF uselessness' is going to abate. Because each class will share it's role with several others. I doubt AR's will be able to sit on the boss like a TR can, but they'll probably be alot better at kiting them around the battlefield to stay relatively safe. Two means to the same approach. If they don't have the ability to break aggro like a TR can, though, they'll have a hard time replacing TR's as the boss slayer, since if they do get 'caught up to' or run through an add or whatnot, their weaker defenses are going to make them extremely vulnerable, whereas a TR can avoid that situation with a simple stealth.
Scourge Warlock. Ouch. Another striker! Debuff, too. In those times where players are taking the CW to work more on the boss than the adds, the warlock will be the better approach. Well, hell, won't he be stepping on the toes of the Archer Ranger? Ahh, those single-target debuffs are going to really help the party.
My point, is that filling the party won't be as cut and dry as it currently is. While I happily stand behind you guys that GWF could get some better threat management (it would help us fit in a little better, after all), I don't think the class is useless if it's not on top of the damage charts.
I think the min-max crew that take ideal members for each dungeon will continue to do so. The rest of us will pick and choose our options amongst what's available, like we already do. If it comes down to two archer rangers, a rogue, a GWF and a DC, I'm sure the dungeon will still do fine.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
A GWF is not a tank because he cannot replace a GF in it's tanking role. Try to have a GWF kite mobs in FH or Karr. You would think there run speed and mobility would make them good at this but no. To kite you need to make threat without getting too close to the 15 guys trying to kill you or you get hit 15 times. GF's have several powers to make threat at range. GWF have only slam that is good for kiting and does not make enough threat or let you target what mobs you want to pick up.
So yeah some dungeons will require certain classes or class combination, but never will that requirement be a GWF. Parties that say we need a GF or a GWF isn't looking for a tank they want a melee. Those are the groups I can use my GF in full DPS gear and show up most any other GWF they could of gotten.
I have done the kite in FH. I can still get close and using daring shout to pull them in. I just can't do it while a GF is doing what he does, or the healer stands too close to the mobs. It's all situational.
Yes, GF's are better setup for mob aggro. And GWF's could really use more threat generating options.
But it's not about the REQUIREMENT. Honestly, as I've proven more than once, no dungeon requires any other class. Five man GWF parties can run any dungeon in the game.
Now I'll agree that, in current dungeon design, the defenders don't get alot of support because the maps are too large and open.
As far as how good your GF is ... you're obviously playing with the wrong GWF's.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
But to assume that with my vast experience with all classes playing with all different groups of people from pugs to guildies and those few super guildies in rank 9's10, with perfect everything. You assume because I have a poor view of GWF's that I am both a Poor GWF and only play with poor GWF's.
Then isnt that true about 90% of the player base? That good GWF's are so few is the reason why the class has a terrible reputation and You think that has nothing to do with the class? But the players that play it? And you intend to educate a very small portion of the players in hopes that GWF players will get better and thier reputation will improve. Thats just not going to happen your words will never reach the new players of GWF that think hey this class is cool with big swords growing large runnign in and smashing stuff and not realize how incredibly terrible sure strike is. But they keep using it simply because it is there first move and maybe even some reaping strike as well.
Why dont you get on the bad wagon of hey the GWF needs to be buffed, other then hey I would like a buff but I dont really need one we are pretty fine as is. That is kinda how I feel about the GF, GF can be improved to make the class more versatile with more other viable options other than DPS smash tank I make threat cause I do lots of damage. I'd love to see protector spec GF's be more viable in full prot gear. Right now, even protector spec GF's should be using DPS gear for threat. When I see a GF with 6k Defense I cringe as they wont keep threat off my GWF or CW. And my GWF is pure DPS, he is kinda squishy when Unstoppable is down.
But hey how can I hope for those little changes and improvements to this game to make things more fun for all who play my main when I see the GWF fall so far behind my class it's not even funny. Even I boycott GWF's I know are bad, and I only ever grab a Pug GWF when I'm making a group if my other memebers I know are good enough to handle a dungoen. I feel I am being kind to a GWF to permit him into my MC groups for a chance at his off hand. I know alot of CW's that can solo Interupt all of Val's attacks including my CW and only a few GWF's including my GWF who can handle it as a duo. Never as a Solo.
The fact is most players in the game see GWF as the underdog class, but most players will not admit it. I will and you will just have to live with it because you can never change my mind until you play the other classes and see how they really compare to the GWF.
I don't see us as the underdog class. I see us as a perfectly valid class with bad advertising. I don't see mechanics in any way (outside of threat) holding us back. I see preconceived opinions spread by players who either don't like how the class plays, don't like how the class runs over them in PvP, don't like that the class isn't as overpowered and broken as it was in Beta, or are simply repeating what other players have told them because they don't really know what they are talking about.
No, I don't know your experiences. You could very easily be making them all up, and so could I and everyone else here. But how do I justify the fact that my experiences (which are not made up, and are my own) and your experiences don't mix?
More than one player has partied with me, asking me why I play a class that's underpowered and broken. After our dungeon or skirmish run, they are asking me why so many other GWF's can't do what I do.
Is this arrogance?
All I'm saying, is that from where I'm standing, the "facts" and "numbers" you've quoted me about GWF are way off. You've said our damage numbers were far below what I personally experience. You've said our powers and features didn't do many of the common things I use them for.
I cannot play GF. I've tried more than once, and shortly, will try again. Something about the way the class works, be it the slow plodding steps, the block button, what ... I don't know. But something doesn't sync with me. Instead of me saying that this class is broken, I've taken the very few players I've seen who play it well (I still generally thrash them with my GWF), and let them represent their class instead of me. You don't see me posting GF posts.
Since I can look upon my own self (and I can easily play, if not enjoy, any other class outside of GF), and see that I have weaknesses in a class that make it hard for me to accurately judge it, do you not think that I would look at someone like yourself, Cyan, who tells me all the things wrong with my class that I've never experienced, as maybe having the same issues?
I do know this: since I consider false advertising to be the biggest threat to GWF and their acceptance into groups, it's my primary concern and mission both here on the forums and in-game. I won't just argue with someone if they make a great point, but if they make a general statement about how bad GWF are, I chime in.
I know I've increased the opinion of me class with many players, and inspired a few to make an alt as a GWF. So I feel confident I'm doing well.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters